| --- Log opened Thu Jun 18 00:00:45 2015 | ||
| bramc | the_last, hitting the transaction rate limit isn't a disaster, it just means transaction rates go up | 00:02 |
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| the_last | bramc: and when the cost of the transaction outweighs its purpose? | 00:14 |
| bramc | the_last, transaction fees won't exceed the value people are getting out of them | 00:14 |
| bramc | Because if it did, they wouldn't pay it :-P | 00:14 |
| the_last | we won't ever see fees above, say, $1? | 00:15 |
| the_last | i mean, for microtransactions even something like a 20cent fee would be expensive, a 20cent fee for a $1 burger for example | 00:15 |
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| mountaingoat | minimum bound on tx fee is the cost of mining + margin to make it worth it for a miner (excluding current subsidy), upper bound is whatever people are willing to pay to get their tx into a block faster | 00:17 |
| mountaingoat | otherwise it's a free market, at least in theory, and most people would probably pay market rate the_last | 00:17 |
| bramc | the_last, microtransactions directly on the block chain are a bad idea. There are proposals for enabling microtransactions, most promisingly lightning network, but trying to cram them into the block chain itself is not happening from both a transaction fee and a time to close standpoint | 00:18 |
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| the_last | i see, thanks | 00:20 |
| mountaingoat | trying to keep zero fee txs ad infinitum because block reward subsidy exists is just putting off the necessary migration to a fee market, which i wish would happen sooner than later. of course part of the debate is probably a question of when is the right time, iiuc | 00:20 |
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| moa | hey bramc | 00:21 |
| bramc | mountaingoat, More than one core developer has expressed a desire to temporarily and artificially have miners lower the limit to make sure that everything can handle real transaction fees and be able to let it go back up again to the real limit in case there's a serious problem. That of course isn't happening in the current political climate. | 00:21 |
| bramc | Yes moa? | 00:22 |
| moa | what do you think about btc payment channels in a tit-for-tat for bittorrent bandwidth model? | 00:22 |
| moa | btc metered torrenting | 00:22 |
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| bramc | moa, bandwidth value doesn't work that way. It isn't a commodity. | 00:24 |
| moa | big pipes are valuable | 00:24 |
| mountaingoat | bramc: limit of free transactions per block?? | 00:25 |
| mountaingoat | -? | 00:25 |
| bramc | You can't take bandwidth and stick it on a shelf to use later. You can only offload uploading onto peers who also have the content | 00:25 |
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| bramc | mountaingoat, meaning, have some fraction of miners continue to accept 1meg blocks, but only generate 500k blocks themselves | 00:26 |
| bramc | That way you can test the limit-hitting logic now and not be totally fucked if it fails | 00:26 |
| mountaingoat | ok, i see | 00:26 |
| moa | interesting take | 00:28 |
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| fluffypony | moa: you mean like justusranvier's proposal? | 00:47 |
| fluffypony | this one: https://bitcoinism.liberty.me/economic-fallacies-and-the-block-size-limit-part-2-price-discovery/ | 00:49 |
| moa | yeah, kind of ... but he only ever proposes things | 00:53 |
| moa | would be better if he was implementing to get direct feedback for his concepts i think | 00:54 |
| moa | icbw | 00:54 |
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| fluffypony | I think the cost of implementing a scheme that doesn't have broad-base support can be exceedingly high for individuals | 01:03 |
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| fluffypony | and getting buy-in from others to assist is painful | 01:03 |
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| * andy-logbot is logging | 01:03 | |
| moa | yep | 01:04 |
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| bramc | Well, I've now written almost 2000 words of vitriol for a post about the subject at hand. Will finish it up and send it off for review tomorrow. | 01:24 |
| mountaingoat | has anybody written about the known milestones of scalability left for bitcoin and what the plan as the project is to achieve them? | 01:26 |
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| mountaingoat | i'd imagine the tx fee market is one of them, but i wonder what else i don't know about that. i'm also sure there's plenty that wouldn't be known until they're encountered in the wild. | 01:27 |
| mountaingoat | -that | 01:27 |
| phantomcircuit | mountaingoat, improving algorithmic scaling | 01:29 |
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| phantomcircuit | which means implementing net settlement systems which use bitcoin | 01:29 |
| mountaingoat | i'm not sure i follow ... what's net settlement? | 01:30 |
| phantomcircuit | mountaingoat, you pay me 1BTC i pay you 2BTC but instead of doing both i simply send you 1BTC | 01:31 |
| leakypat | mountaingoat: eg. Performing 1000s of small transactions off the blockchain and then netting them out and settling on chain in a single transaction | 01:31 |
| phantomcircuit | that's what micropayment channels and lightning do | 01:31 |
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| mountaingoat | ah right | 01:31 |
| mountaingoat | yeah, that would seem important to adapting rate to the bitcoin blockchain | 01:32 |
| bramc | It's interesting how quickly core devs have come around to seeing lightning network as the future. | 01:33 |
| bramc | The lack of any other serious proposals is probably a big part of it... | 01:33 |
| leakypat | bramc from my understanding it would need a lot of things to happen to make it work | 01:34 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, lightning is an extension of micropayment channel hubs | 01:34 |
| bramc | leakypat, Depends what you mean by 'a lot'. None of them are crazy. | 01:34 |
| phantomcircuit | micropayment channels in general have been widely understood to be the solution to scaling bitcoin | 01:34 |
| phantomcircuit | for years now | 01:35 |
| leakypat | Even if all the coding is done and it is up and running . It still needs to get enough usage that I can route a payment via existing channels etc. | 01:35 |
| leakypat | (I think) | 01:35 |
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| bramc | phantomcircuit, Fair enough, one can say that lightning network is the finishing details on the concept of micropayment channels | 01:35 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, as interesting as lightning is i feel pretty confident that even better approaches are not only possible but will come out relatively quickly given actual scaling pressure | 01:36 |
| phantomcircuit | at present there is no real pressure | 01:36 |
| bramc | leakypat, There needs to be an ecosystem of payment intermediaries, but the requirements on how they're set up for the whole thing to work is actually quite loose | 01:36 |
| leakypat | Eg. I don't have a channel open with company x, but company x does with User y and I do with user y | 01:36 |
| leakypat | I have to be able to find a path for my payment | 01:36 |
| bramc | phantomcircuit, What deficiencies in lightning would you like to see addressed? | 01:36 |
| bramc | leakypat, Yeah it supports that | 01:37 |
| bramc | Much larger systems have already been made to work in the wild. BGP, for example. | 01:38 |
| bramc | Well, it's way past my bed-time. Today's bitcoin-induced aneurysm is over. Good night everybody. | 01:38 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, nobody has yet come up with a mechanism to do net netting | 01:38 |
| bramc | phantomcircuit, lightning supports that just fine | 01:39 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, in other words it would be nice if the settlement could be safely delayed if both parties agreed | 01:39 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, no you have to close out the channel eventually | 01:39 |
| bramc | phantomcircuit, No you only have to close out the channel if the balance goes past the deposit amounts | 01:40 |
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| phantomcircuit | bramc, i suspect that in general it wont make a huge difference either way | 01:41 |
| phantomcircuit | most channels will simply go one direction | 01:42 |
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| hearn | theymos: did you seriously suggest earlier attempting to break the DNS seeds in order to fuck with bitcoinj based wallets? *eyepop* | 08:35 |
| hearn | (not just bitcoinj. other spv wallets too) | 08:36 |
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| theymos | hearn: I didn't suggest breaking them, and not to cause havoc/DoS. I suggested causing them to return only nodes on the correct side of any hardfork, to prevent SPV nodes from blindly going along with a hardfork even if it's supported by miners. | 09:24 |
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| jcorgan | such illustrative differences in demeanor | 09:25 |
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| bramc | That's rich. Hearn just accused someone of trying to 'wreck havoc' for making a proposal to try to contain some of the havoc created by his own proposal. | 09:29 |
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| nsh | (i pointed out this would happen to kanzure yesterday when he made a similar suggestion. it's not diplomatic to attempt to preempt a failure of consensus update process by proposing a similarly non-bilateral countermeasure. this raises temperature/anxieties and doesn't tend towards amicable resolution) | 09:57 |
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| bramc | nsh, The possibility of an amicable resolution seems to have already been precluded | 10:03 |
| * nsh is an optimist | 10:03 | |
| nsh | and assumes good faith :) | 10:04 |
| GAit | theymos: i think they shouldn't be implemented until there is code distributed that is preprogrammed to attemp a contentious hard fork, as for discussing possible countermeasures that could be taken in the contentious situation i think it's fair game, hearn loves to discuss hypoteticals and extreme situations in his interviews and talks | 10:05 |
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| theymos | It wouldn't be a bad idea in general for DNS seeds to try and check that peers they recommend are real full nodes that are properly handling blocks. Currently they do only a few basic checks, and could probably be fooled by Sybil attacks. | 10:08 |
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| GAit | theymos: sure but it would be quite hard to detect PseudoNode | 10:10 |
| GAit | well, maybe not, i don't know how | 10:10 |
| GAit | timings and things like that seem flaky | 10:10 |
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| theymos | Yeah. Though Tor directory authorities face similar problems, and they've done basically OK. | 10:11 |
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| bramc | This is some Fidel Castro shit right here: http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/34220412/ | 12:19 |
| bramc | I gave a rousing speech and the people agreed with me! Clearly the rough consensus says I'm right! | 12:20 |
| bramc | The reality is that there is a rough consensus. The rough consensus says he's wrong. | 12:21 |
| petertodd | theymos: until we get DNS seeds to be authenticated with a way to prove they gave you bad results, I'd argue we should go the other way and have them periodically return lies for robustness | 12:21 |
| gavinandresen | bramc : if you have specific technical objections to raising the max block size, I'd love to hear them (via email) if I haven't already addressed them in a gavinandresen.ninja blog post. | 12:27 |
| gavinandresen | bramc : discussion about governance of Bitcoin Core probably belongs in #bitcoin-dev | 12:27 |
| gavinandresen | ... and discussion of bitcoin in general probably belongs in #bitcoin | 12:28 |
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| bramc | gavinandresen, You're going to cause a fork. It will not be a simple change. There will be two separate currencies. And it will be a disaster. | 12:29 |
| bramc | gavinandresen, And the problem you're claiming to solve isn't even a problem. Transaction fees might go above two cents! The sky is falling1 | 12:29 |
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| temujin | please fork bitcoin so i can buy during the panic low | 12:35 |
| bramc | Everybody, basic question here: is bip100 a hard fork or not? | 12:38 |
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| tromp_ | absolutely | 12:39 |
| bramc | I thought it was a formal writeup of this: https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07937.html | 12:40 |
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| tromp_ | it (http://gtf.org/garzik/bitcoin/BIP100-blocksizechangeproposal.pdf) mentions "hard fork" 12 times | 12:41 |
| bramc | Ugh | 12:42 |
| bramc | *headdesk* | 12:42 |
| tromp_ | "Schedule the hard fork on bitcoin main chain for January 11, 2016. " | 12:42 |
| tromp_ | looks like a reasonable proposal to me | 12:43 |
| tromp_ | although the miner voting process adds rather a lot of complexity | 12:46 |
| tromp_ | compared to, say, doubling every 2 years until it reaches 32MB | 12:48 |
| tromp_ | in which case the miners can still self-impose lower soft-limits | 12:48 |
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| kanzure | bramc: i think it's interesting that he thought you were talking about max-block-size. | 12:52 |
| kanzure | bramc: clearly there's miscommunication going on here :-) | 12:53 |
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| fluffypony | kanzure: I liked your most recent email | 12:58 |
| fluffypony | <3 | 12:58 |
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| kanzure | fluffypony: much of this is similar to mission integrity in projects that require as-safe-as-possible random number generators | 13:49 |
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| amiller | anyone looked at this "spacecoin" paper http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/528 | 14:01 |
| nsh | heh | 14:04 |
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| amiller | some things it doesn't address: how it's any "greener"... if you spend $80 million dollars on hard drives i dont see how that's any better for the environment than $80 million on asics and power | 14:11 |
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| ThinThread | how do i find out exactly when the fork will happen | 14:12 |
| ThinThread | bitcoin node outputs "Hard fork detected" ? | 14:13 |
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| kanzure | hard-forks are not always detectable | 14:15 |
| kanzure | amiller: oh no :-( "Our solution to this problem is based on penalizing miners who try to work on more than one branch of the chain." | 14:17 |
| kanzure | amiller: it's really weird how nobody reads -wizards logs | 14:17 |
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| kanzure | also it seems to assume that miners don't use unique keys? | 14:20 |
| kanzure | being able to steal rewards from the past is problematic because it might mean a 10k-deep fork, then all the coinbase transactions are stolen later, thus disrupting the .. hrm. | 14:21 |
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| fluffypony | lol | 14:26 |
| kanzure | it's sort of a proof withholding attack | 14:26 |
| kanzure | in addition to all the regular forms of attacks that have been previously discussed | 14:26 |
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| bramc | amiller, If done properly, proofs of disk can work off the already existent unused disk out there, so the ROI on buying new equipment to do mining would be negative | 14:30 |
| bramc | From the abstract, it appears that the authors have independently reinvented at least some of the ideas I've come up with, although it looks like they're missing some critical points. I'll have to read through it to have a more informed opinion. | 14:31 |
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| gmaxwell | I was talking to Michael Hamburg (from curves @ modern crypto) and he has a neat method to efficiently factor out the cofactor on twisted edwards curves with cofactor 4 like ed448-goldilocks (but not 8 like ed25519). So you can get a prime order group using the construction. | 14:32 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, What is that construction for? | 14:33 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, You've made some comments about objective metrics on the optimal size of the block chain seemingly indicating that the current limit is too big. What are those metrics? | 14:33 |
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| bramc | Oh yech, the spacecoin paper is using pebbling graphs. The straightforward approach is so much easier. Also they don't seem to have figured out the trick of interleaving proofs of time. | 14:36 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: there are a couple of negative indicators, node counts, business outsouring of processing instead of running nodes, number of VPS offerings that you can even run a node on, hashpower behavior-- explicitly and intentionally consolidating to reduce orhpaning (esp pre-matt's relay network) (also things like miners disabling signature checking, though that may be a fluke). I wrote a better li | 14:37 |
| gmaxwell | st someplace I'll go look in a bit. | 14:37 |
| bramc | by 'consolidating to reduce orphaning' do you mean miners including fewer transactions because the value they get in transaction fees is worth less than the risk that they'll get orphaned? | 14:38 |
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| bramc | Businesses not running nodes is weird. It would be really nice if wallets ran full nodes themselves. | 14:39 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: wrt construction, people sometimes use EC curves where the group formed doesn't have prime order (ed25519 is one example). You generally need to assure that your points are in a particular subgroup. For things like ECDH this is easy (make your keys a multiple of the cofactor) and not of grave consequence if you get it wrong. For fancier ZK protocols like ZK auth/password based kdf or thin | 14:39 |
| gmaxwell | gs like range proofs it's both harder to assure you're in the right subgroup and more important (as which subgroup you are in leaks data) | 14:39 |
| kanzure | bramc: businesses are often campaigned by certain other businesses that "develoeprs find it hard to use bitcoin core" etc | 14:40 |
| helo | you pretty much need a programmer that understands the fundamentals well to integrate with it | 14:41 |
| helo | vs a service like bitpay that works like paypal | 14:41 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: it's hard to sort out whats a accident of market dynamics vs a fundimental. | 14:41 |
| helo | (i think that is the problem more than the block size or hardware requirements to run a full node) | 14:41 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, Why not use a group of prime order? My recollection of the discussion of ed255 vs. secpk is that ed255 doesn't have odd order and the most recent secpk code is roughly comparable in performance. | 14:42 |
| bramc | It could be that a lot of businesses just don't like running servers | 14:42 |
| gmaxwell | E.g. yes, it would be much healthier if wallets on high power systems always became (pruned) fullnodes in the background; but the software doesn't exist for that currently. So the fact that this hasn't happened may have nothing to do with the blocksize (though obviously it cannot happen for blocksize over _some_ threshold) | 14:42 |
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| gmaxwell | bramc: yes, thats one reason I like secp256k1-- that it has prime order. Though for curves where this projection trick works, may be just as good. (and perhaps better in some other ways). | 14:44 |
| leakypat | Are you referring to desktop wallets like armory or wallet services with central servers? | 14:44 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, In a very immediate practical sense not breaking heirarchical wallets is a good thing | 14:44 |
| gmaxwell | leakypat: desktop wallets. WRT centeral servers; well that might be some kind of indicator regarding blocksize too but it's really hard to sort out the varrious effects. | 14:45 |
| bramc | Ideally even mobile wallets would be full nodes | 14:46 |
| ajweiss | i've played with running pruned nodes on fairly beefy android phones before | 14:47 |
| lmatteis | to decentralize mining again, was it ever considered to embed P2pool sort of technology inside bitcoin core? | 14:48 |
| ajweiss | it works, but practicality is tbd... also this is with zero optimizations or tweaks | 14:48 |
| gmaxwell | ajweiss: I believe luke was running bitcoin core on his nokia 810 at one point in the past. :P | 14:49 |
| bramc | ajweiss, moore's law is on our side, as long as the size of the block chain doesn't go up :-P | 14:49 |
| ajweiss | the problem is battery life and catching up | 14:49 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: I think mobile wallets could quite plausably be the kind of fraud proofed full security lite nodes that we can't currently do in Bitcoin. | 14:49 |
| gmaxwell | e.g. where it's mostly not checking things except a bit at random, but it can accept and verify proofs hat a block is bad and then reject it. | 14:50 |
| ajweiss | it made me wonder if maybe running your own trusted and authenticated nodes that your thin clients can talk to would make more sense | 14:50 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, What do you mean by 'can't'? | 14:50 |
| gmaxwell | see checklist: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/features#Proofs (I think that list was missing something but I forget; anyways it makes the point) | 14:51 |
| ajweiss | the whole blockchaindataforyou.com vs. running your own node in a business might be solved by some dead simple and well marketed APIs for verifying things that could be used in tandem with the commercial service | 14:51 |
| gmaxwell | part of the difficulty there is that the extra commitments are expensive to maintain (IO cost wise for full nodes) | 14:52 |
| gmaxwell | ajweiss: so I've heard from some commercial service offerings that offer an API which also can talk to a local full node that very-few of their users use it, even with nagging. | 14:53 |
| helo | using your home computer/connection to host services for your mobile phone should really be a thing in general... | 14:53 |
| helo | but it really is not | 14:53 |
| gmaxwell | helo: I have friends at https://sandstorm.io/ that woudl agree... | 14:53 |
| ajweiss | that's been a longrunning dream | 14:54 |
| helo | dyndns + vpn would be close | 14:54 |
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| gmaxwell | helo: what the sandstorm stuff does is creates a generic sandbox where you can 'app market' like install common webapps and they're all isolated from each other. | 14:54 |
| gmaxwell | but who knows thats a movement bigger than bitcoin; though its not unimportant. | 14:55 |
| bramc | Very few companies run their own email servers either | 14:55 |
| bramc | The fraction of all email currently controlled by google is quite alarming. | 14:56 |
| ajweiss | afaik there's no FOSS alternative that's even close yet | 14:56 |
| Eliel | email takes a crapload of administration effort that doesn't really increase with the number of users that much. | 14:56 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: even if you run your own and you're happy, google and hotmail will randomly blacklist you. | 14:56 |
| Eliel | yes, part of it is randomly getting blacklisted :P | 14:57 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, I've been unhappy even with hosted services for the most part | 14:57 |
| ajweiss | and the ongoing spam saga is pretty annoying... especially since it seems most of the development moved from oss to services | 14:57 |
| gmaxwell | This has been a basically constant problem for several orgs I know about that self host mail on coloed servers. (e.g. wikimedia, creative commons). | 14:57 |
| helo | google hosting or... use gmail directly -.- | 14:58 |
| gmaxwell | Of course, for personal mail its almost crazy to use a personal service if you care at all about privacy, since in the US we have crazy legal perspective that you have no expectation of privacy for mail stored by third parties, and so virtually no legal protection for it. | 14:58 |
| bramc | I just use gmail, because the alternatives are a joke. I hope that microsoft gets their offering to be reasonably comparable. | 14:58 |
| bramc | Anyway, the point is that the trend towards centralization is very strong and difficult to counter | 14:59 |
| Tiraspol | https://protonmail.ch/ | 14:59 |
| gmaxwell | Centeralization has inherent efficiencies, as well has incentives simplicity. | 14:59 |
| zooko | I use gmail. It spam-filters mail from Jeff Garzik and Mark S. Miller to me. Always. | 14:59 |
| zooko | Which I think is hilarious. | 14:59 |
| ajweiss | Our email service safeguards user data with strict privacy protections and our secure datacenter facility hidden inside a Swiss granite mountain. | 15:00 |
| ajweiss | zooko: just on list, or in general? | 15:00 |
| gmaxwell | in general. | 15:00 |
| gmaxwell | of course every one of us who uses gmail creates pressure on those people to use it too... due to screwups like that. | 15:01 |
| bramc | One of the few places where centralization is all awful is bandwidth. Hence BitTorrent. | 15:01 |
| ajweiss | weird. that should happen on list because they're using DMARC and the list is breaking the signature... why individual mail would break makes no sense to me... | 15:01 |
| gmaxwell | (nevermind that these people are in my address book and I've emailed them before... to the spamcan with them!) | 15:01 |
| Eliel | I think a lot more companies would run bitcoin core if you could run one bitcoind and then have several wallets on different systems that all use the bitcoin core for their operation. if bitcoin core was zeroconf (and worked instantly) and wallet configuration only needed the ip-address/domain to the bitcoin core. | 15:02 |
| bramc | I've only rarely had spam filtering problems lately, but this is mostly due to hardly using email at all. | 15:02 |
| bramc | Eliel, zeroconf is busted | 15:02 |
| gmaxwell | Eliel: yea wallet/backend seperation would be nice; I've wanted that for a long time. There is motion in a direction which should eventually admit that... but there are so many fires burning. | 15:03 |
| helo | Eliel: that will probably be possible in a few more releases... i think the wallet is moving further and further from bitcoin core center stage, at least | 15:03 |
| helo | then it may be pretty simple to point your various wallets at one node at home | 15:04 |
| gmaxwell | helo: dunno about that; wallet in bitcoin core had no one working on it for some time, though thats not true anymore. | 15:04 |
| fluffypony | that's the architecture we have | 15:05 |
| helo | hopefully we'll be close in a year | 15:05 |
| fluffypony | complete separation between wallet and daemon | 15:05 |
| Eliel | (I'm working on a WIP bitcoinj based wallet software that's partially compatible with bitcoin core wallet RPC.) | 15:05 |
| fluffypony | but then it used RPC, which is messy, so we're moving to 0MQ (pub-sub over the IPC->TCP transport) | 15:06 |
| gmaxwell | fluffypony: yea that seemed like an obviously better design. (not true of everything in monero, but I'm glad it learned something from bitcoin's mistakes! :) ) | 15:07 |
| fluffypony | we're still having to go through the same pain as you guys with delicately pulling consensus-critical stuff out into a library of its own, though, so there's that | 15:08 |
| Eliel | the main problem with bitcoin core is that while running it on one server is ok, it's very much not ok if it quadruples the resource requirements for every server you need a wallet on. | 15:08 |
| fluffypony | Eliel: the "quick fix" is to only allow one node on the network external access, and force the rest of the nodes to peer with each other | 15:09 |
| fluffypony | then the resources are all eternal | 15:09 |
| kanzure | could some clarify; is monero using zeromq? | 15:13 |
| Eliel | fluffypony: if bitcoin core had SPV mode, then it'd be usable in that sort of setup. | 15:14 |
| fluffypony | kanzure: not merged into master yet | 15:14 |
| kanzure | fluffypony: waiting on bitcoin to merge zeromq stuff..? | 15:14 |
| fluffypony | lol no | 15:15 |
| kanzure | k | 15:15 |
| fluffypony | https://github.com/oranjuice/bitmonero | 15:15 |
| fluffypony | still some calls that haven't been completed | 15:15 |
| fluffypony | so PR soon (tm) | 15:15 |
| gmaxwell | Eliel: some of the resorces requirement stuff is just stupid. there is no particular reason for it to be so resource hungry now. The fact that you can't run it in basic tier VPSes has been a huge issue. | 15:17 |
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| midnightmagic | lmatteis: I didn't see anyone answer your comment about embedding p2pool within bitcoin core. Yes, lots of people have said it, and gavin has mentioned he would be completely in favour of a C++ conversion of p2pool for inclusion with bitcoin-core. I suspect a separate daemon would be most palatable, but the answer is yes. And I suspect if it were cleanly-written, it would likely not have muc | 17:14 |
| midnightmagic | h difficulty getting ACKs from the | 17:14 |
| * midnightmagic stabs splitline | 17:14 | |
| midnightmagic | universal developer set. | 17:14 |
| kanzure | what are the arguments against including the python implementation? | 17:14 |
| midnightmagic | kanzure: probably dependencies. There were no arguments about it, as far as I know everyone else agreed a C or C++ implementation would be a superior direction. | 17:15 |
| midnightmagic | kanzure: I suspect the fact that universal p2pool mining would push the canonical p2pool chain difficulty so high it would no longer be an effective reduction in mining variance and therefore unpopular. Probably manual subscription or semi-automatic subchain membership organization would solve that. | 17:16 |
| gmaxwell | kanzure: so p2pool is ... not very healthy right now. It's more or less unmaintained, and the performance is not great. (e.g. uses several hundred megs of ram). AFAICT forrestv burned out on bitcoin when people with crappy centeralized pools were earning a hundred grand a month, and his major engineering feat bairly got enough for him to buy an asic miner (which then was never shipped). | 17:17 |
| kanzure | oh; yeah i guess dependencies would be bothersome, even when bundled into a release. | 17:17 |
| kanzure | also was unaware of forrestv burnout. | 17:17 |
| gmaxwell | midnightmagic: it always results in variance reduction, right now the low hashrate on it overwhelmingly dominates, current users would still be better off with everyone using it. | 17:17 |
| gmaxwell | (they wouldn't get paid in every block, lots of share variance, but much less pool variance) | 17:18 |
| midnightmagic | forrestv is extremely cooperative as a developer, and a very high-quality human in general. | 17:18 |
| midnightmagic | (at least what I've seen of him the last five years) | 17:18 |
| jcorgan | not many of those | 17:18 |
| belcher | too bad about the incentives around open source development :| | 17:18 |
| gmaxwell | Forrestv is a great guy and frighteningly smart p2pool code is too "clever" for me to hack on easily; it's full of python metaprogramming. | 17:18 |
| belcher | in that situation being evil is more profitable | 17:19 |
| zooko | gmaxwell: ouch | 17:19 |
| zooko | sigh | 17:19 |
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| zooko | After we fix money, we need to fix economics. | 17:19 |
| * zooko drank a glass of red wine | 17:19 | |
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| kanzure | i thought aging was next on the agenda | 17:20 |
| kanzure | maybe i have the old agenda | 17:20 |
| zooko | Heh heh heh. We definitely need to fix that. | 17:21 |
| midnightmagic | I like p2pool's code, personally, although the lambda stuff was the first time I've ever encountered it in python code. Spoiled by commercial LCD python programming I guess. | 17:21 |
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| gmaxwell | In any case, since p2pool is a consensus network itself, its a bit tricky to maintain! (though forrestv managed to upgrade it a BUNCH of times) | 17:21 |
| zooko | forrestv: is it true you felt burnt out by the experience? | 17:22 |
| zooko | forrestv: and what are you doing now? | 17:22 |
| gmaxwell | oh he's in here?! crazy! | 17:22 |
| * zooko peers at forrestv | 17:22 | |
| zooko | Looks pretty idle. | 17:22 |
| * gmaxwell misses talking to forrestv | 17:22 | |
| midnightmagic | :-) that's why I used his name when I said nice things about him. :) | 17:23 |
| zooko | :-) | 17:23 |
| zooko | If I order another glass of red wine, I'm /part'ing from this channel for the night. | 17:25 |
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| gmaxwell | zooko: oh you got one of those keyboard breathalizers, ... so much more useful than those fingerprint readers. | 17:25 |
| zooko | Heh heh heh. | 17:26 |
| zooko | That's a great idea. | 17:26 |
| zooko | I wonder if I'll find one if I google for it. | 17:26 |
| zooko | Maybe search kickstarter. | 17:27 |
| kanzure | here's your term sheet | 17:27 |
| kanzure | i spilled some coffee on it and i drew with some crayons on it, but it's still good i think | 17:27 |
| zooko | :-) | 17:27 |
| zooko | I *am* actually working on an investment contract right now, while drinking, and IRC'ing. | 17:28 |
| zooko | Maybe I should send some emails and tweet while I'm at it. | 17:28 |
| gmaxwell | zooko: software is the new hotness, can probably use the camera to detect flushing. | 17:28 |
| zooko | Ooh. | 17:28 |
| moa | got a bot to do that | 17:28 |
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| zooko | I wonder if there is a keystroke-timing equivalent to slurred speech. | 17:28 |
| gmaxwell | via this DSP technique: http://people.csail.mit.edu/mrub/vidmag/ | 17:29 |
| dgenr8 | didn't see this mentioned here in a quick search http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/578 | 17:29 |
| gmaxwell | dunno if it was mentioned here, I've seen it. The 20 minute stuff is well known (see #bitcoin-dev logs), made less of a concern by immune networks between miners, but will be improved in later versions. | 17:30 |
| midnightmagic | https://github.com/thearn/webcam-pulse-detector | 17:30 |
| gmaxwell | I haven't read the full thing in details. | 17:30 |
| kanzure | .title http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/578 | 17:30 |
| yoleaux | Cryptology ePrint Archive: Report 2015/578 | 17:30 |
| kanzure | grr | 17:30 |
| kanzure | "Tampering with the Delivery of Blocks and Transactions in Bitcoin" | 17:30 |
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| dgenr8 | if we have an inv, and get a tx push for that hash, why not accept it? | 17:32 |
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| gmaxwell | dgenr8: I believe we do (did?) accept unsolicited TX pushes; thoug there is a good argument why not to: it strongly encourages crappy implementations that don't INV (and can't inv) and thus waste a bunch of bandwidth. | 17:34 |
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| kanzure | (in other off-topic research) "Meta-analysis of heritability of human traits based on 50 years of twin studies" http://www.gwern.net/docs/2015-polderman.pdf | 17:34 |
| gmaxwell | kanzure: man, I misread that as meta-heritability and was momentarily perplexed. | 17:35 |
| nsh | i just spent a few seconds doubting the utility of delineating traits in the first place | 17:36 |
| midnightmagic | need a clean way to encapsulate a zotero single-paper archive. | 17:37 |
| dgenr8 | this problem would go away even if we accepted a push only in the case it was previously asked for from another peer | 17:37 |
| midnightmagic | :-( this plain-pdf on its own stuff is Not Da Best Kung Fu | 17:37 |
| gmaxwell | dgenr8: I don't see how, peers shouldn't be sending unsolicited transactions in the first place; so how is a behavior going to be fixed by changing the handling of something that shouldn't happen? | 17:38 |
| dgenr8 | right | 17:38 |
| dgenr8 | what are the improvements you mentioned? | 17:39 |
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| dgenr8 | oh for one thing they claim the incoming inv buffer from a single peer is not de-duplicated. that should be easy to fix | 17:43 |
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| dgenr8 | they are probably using multiple peers and just didn't state it | 17:46 |
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| amiller | that tampering with delivery paper repeats a bunch of stuff i already mentioned in http://cs.umd.edu/projects/coinscope/coinscope.pdf | 17:54 |
| amiller | including that the inv buffer is not deduplicated | 17:55 |
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| dgenr8 | ah. it's not even keyed by hash so, yep | 18:14 |
| dgenr8 | i'm thinking AddInventoryKnown should pay attention to whether it was already there and continue if yes | 18:19 |
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| dgenr8 | that gets it down to just 2 minutes (which is still too long) | 18:26 |
| dgenr8 | amiller: haven't read that, now looking forward to it! | 18:27 |
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| moa | what's with all these AI movies these days, seems to be a deluge of them coming out | 18:35 |
| moa | i'm sure one of the dialogs in ex machina was ripped off -wizards logs | 18:36 |
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| moa | ... and I'll be running the Chappie fork from now on btw | 18:39 |
| gmaxwell | moa: You didn't notice that the main computer genius guy looks like a buff eliezer yudkowsky? | 18:40 |
| moa | well he was buff ... and an alcoholic | 18:43 |
| moa | but his last line was a classic ... stumbling down the hallway wife knife protrduing from chest "effing unreal dude" | 18:43 |
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| gmaxwell | I liked the movie, for whatever is worth; also in accepting it for what it is. but hah. ending wasn't that awesome though. | 18:47 |
| moa | yeah, take it for what it was worth .... but it makes one wonder unless AI has it's own "great filter" then the fermi paradox great filter might be AI, etc | 18:48 |
| jgarzik | They had a private screening of Ex Machina at the Singularity Conference where I spoke last week. After the screening, a private Q&A with MSFT A.I. expert and another A.I. expert | 18:48 |
| jgarzik | ...and I missed it :/ | 18:48 |
| moa | murdered by the AI you created | 18:49 |
| gmaxwell | moa: well that was part of the point; AI is potentially an existential risk to humanity. I think our expirence with Bitcoin informs that even the AI doomssayers are probably very naieve about how far away mankind is from being able to produce complex systems that do as intended, too. | 18:51 |
| moa | fast-learning adaptive systems can go off the rails just as fast as they can achieve amazing things | 18:53 |
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| moa | AI need good sleep cycles and a naughty corner to consider the consequences of their actions | 18:55 |
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| moa | a trip to the zoo and some ice cream might not be sufficient on the carrot side of the equation though | 18:56 |
| gmaxwell | moa: I think I may have mentioned before I tried to come up with a risk metric for adaptive systems. The idea, I thought is you can consider the universe a probablity space and then ask how unlikely an event the process could bring about, and use that as an estimate of danger. But after not-much reflection I realized simple processes like the phased lock loop that brings my local atomic clock | 18:57 |
| gmaxwell | in sync with UTC from GPS is able to cause synchronization with error <= 10e-13 level quite quickly, which is impossibly good alignment from a probablity perspective... so by that kind of metric like ... everything would be very dangerous, so not that useful. | 18:57 |
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| moa | maybe a better starting point is that the universe is an incredibly dangerous place, everything is dangerous it is a miracle every second we stay alive? | 19:04 |
| moa | life and living is the low probability event | 19:04 |
| gmaxwell | well we already know life is dangerous! | 19:05 |
| moa | yup, it's axiomatic then | 19:05 |
| gmaxwell | I think that intution is not completely awful, e.g. it correctly detects a bunch of dangerous things (people) and not very dangerous things (rocks)... but unfortunately it also calls many things that are probably not very dangerous dangerous, like a phase locked loop syncing oscillators. | 19:06 |
| jgarzik | bah, I have a 100% track record of not-dying | 19:06 |
| jgarzik | seems safe to me | 19:06 |
| moa | i could walk through the plate-glass window in front of me right now ... look around you and ask how many ways you could be dead inside a minute | 19:06 |
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| moa | if my circuits got scrambled all that danger comes into play | 19:07 |
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| moa | sanity is balancing a highly complex system inside a very narrow phase space of relative safety, surrounded by a domain of mostly danger life-ending motions | 19:14 |
| moa | then you hop in a car and drive down the freeway at 70mph to spice it up :) | 19:14 |
| moa | on your way to go wing-suiting in the alps for the weekend | 19:15 |
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| kanzure | gmaxwell: i think we need better strategies than that (e.g. we really should have not-all-your-eggs-in-one-basket redundancy so that if we turn out to be in a world where very dangerous things are highly probable and easily achievable, then we are less entirely screwed) | 19:52 |
| kanzure | *such that we are less entirely screwed | 19:53 |
| kanzure | ((if your form of "dangerous" is such that it can always usurp any possible solution, then it's not a useful problem definition because it provides no utility for what to bother doing with our time, if anything specific)) | 19:54 |
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| the_last | rusty: nice blog post | 20:07 |
| rusty | the_last: thanks! | 20:08 |
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| moa | rusty: so ~9mins to propagate 8MB blocks? | 20:42 |
| moa | e.g. on your outback link | 20:42 |
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| rusty | moa: heh, this is fifth largest city in Australia, 1.25M population. But, yeah :( | 21:12 |
| moa | yeah, that was tongue-in-cheek ... 11Mb down 1 Mb up is pretty standard DSL | 21:13 |
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| rusty | moa: fastest available, unf. Doesn't seem an unfair basis if you're thinking about a global userbase. | 21:29 |
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| moa | rusty1: I agree ... and I think many people will be surprised with how bad upload connectivity really is for network end users | 21:44 |
| gmaxwell | it's also roughly my connectivity. | 21:45 |
| moa | supposedly the old 700 MHz analog tv bands are going to support 4G equipment to us in the NZ bush sometime in near future | 21:46 |
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| @Luke-Jr | moa: aren't they "open to all" now? | 21:49 |
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| * Luke-Jr ponders difficulty level of setting up a SDR to use an open channel for 4G <.< | 21:50 | |
| moa | ha, i wish ... they had an unseemingly fast auction and ignored calls to keep some of it open for public use | 21:50 |
| moa | I was envisioning a mesh network using old UHF that every house still has rusting on their roofs | 21:51 |
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| fluffypony | moa: I reckon cheaper satellite will be deployed before that happens | 23:43 |
| moa | fluffypony: satellite comms is hard, tv antennas have been done for over 80 years | 23:48 |
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