| --- Log opened Fri Jun 19 00:00:46 2015 | ||
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| jgarzik | fluffypony, moa: Q3 2016 for Dunvegan Space's satellites w/ blockchain on board... | 00:06 |
|---|---|---|
| phantomcircuit | jgarzik, er how much bandwidth does that have? | 00:06 |
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| jgarzik | phantomcircuit, 1 Mb/s - not a comm satellite, more a server in space - http://dunveganspace.com/assets/bitsat-infosheet.pdf | 00:08 |
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| fluffypony | jgarzik: nice | 00:15 |
| fluffypony | moa: I know, I was thinking more about Elon Musk's thing | 00:16 |
| jgarzik | If you think you have a customer use case, let us know! jgarzik@dss.co This far in advance of launch, we are lining up people interested in storing data or running apps on the satellites. | 00:16 |
| jgarzik | Run fun stuff on there like bitcoin oracles | 00:16 |
| phantomcircuit | jgarzik, 1Mb/s theoretical or actual? | 00:16 |
| jgarzik | phantomcircuit, 1 Mb/s theoretical max | 00:17 |
| fluffypony | jgarzik: can it do two-way, or one-way only? | 00:17 |
| jgarzik | 2 way | 00:17 |
| phantomcircuit | jgarzik, any idea what actual will be one way? | 00:17 |
| jgarzik | actually more than 2-way since we have inter-satellite relay | 00:17 |
| jgarzik | in addition to ground<->sat | 00:17 |
| jgarzik | phantomcircuit, close to that based on bench tests | 00:17 |
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| moa | jgarzik: any limits on apps that can be run on your sats? | 00:19 |
| moa | physically, legally | 00:19 |
| jgarzik | moa: whatever the sat can run & doesn't get me arrested ;p | 00:19 |
| * fluffypony reckons moa is designing porn-o-lites | 00:20 | |
| moa | jurisdictional arbitrage gets interesting in space | 00:20 |
| jgarzik | our net can do worldwide broadcasting, once all 24 are up | 00:20 |
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| jgarzik | Anything overly nerd-y going on in SF this weekend? I'm around with - shocker - no meetings or calls | 10:53 |
| jgarzik | maybe I'll go see Ex Machina | 10:54 |
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| hearn | jgarzik: it's good | 11:09 |
| hearn | jgarzik: if you like cerebral sci fi | 11:09 |
| hearn | jgarzik: the google analogies are a bit too direct imo but other than that it's quite engaging :) | 11:10 |
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| leakypat | jgarzik: what is the status of bip100 ? Is it officially a bip now? | 14:39 |
| jgarzik | leakypat, BIP draft coming in a few days | 14:40 |
| jgarzik | leakypat, It's officially a BIP when it's in the BIP drafts repo | 14:40 |
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| leakypat | jgarzik: great, thanks | 15:10 |
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| maaku | jgarzik: did you request an official bip number, as per bip 1? | 18:09 |
| warren | jgarzik: how long are you in SF? | 18:11 |
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| bramc | Hey everybody | 19:49 |
| merlincorey | hai doctor bramcnick | 19:51 |
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| kanzure | merlincorey: not sure others will recognize that | 20:07 |
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| bramc | merlincorey, I don't get the reference | 20:14 |
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| kanzure | i'm also not sure it applies here, heh | 20:19 |
| merlincorey | bramc: it's a simpson's reference | 20:20 |
| merlincorey | kanzure: the simpsons (and futurama) writers are composed in large part of actual mathematicians | 20:21 |
| merlincorey | kanzure: so in an oblique way, it does | 20:21 |
| kanzure | yeah but i don't think bram has any malpractice insurance issues | 20:21 |
| merlincorey | let's hope not | 20:21 |
| merlincorey | but we don't have any way of knowing :P | 20:21 |
| bramc | Of course not. I always make sure to perform surgery with sharp knives. | 20:22 |
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| jgarzik | warren, all week | 21:07 |
| warren | jgarzik: when do you depart? I arrive June 22nd | 21:09 |
| jgarzik | warren, June 27 | 21:10 |
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| warren | i'm in SF June 23rd - 25th, want to meet up? | 21:11 |
| bramc | I'm in SF all the time | 21:11 |
| jgarzik | warren, Possibly :) My week is full of meetings - Tentatively yes, but I have to prioritize NASA folks etc. | 21:13 |
| kanzure | what has nasa ever done for us | 21:14 |
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| warren | NASA? | 21:17 |
| warren | Bitcoin to the moon ... literally | 21:17 |
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| warren | really bad block propagation latency | 21:18 |
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| jgarzik | warren, Low Earth Orbit :) | 21:24 |
| jgarzik | ...unless you know some customers who want to get to the moon... | 21:25 |
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| warren | jgarzik: a 2 way peg sidechain might be better for mooncoin ... | 21:28 |
| jgarzik | too much settlement latency | 21:28 |
| warren | atomic swaps | 21:28 |
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| bramc | warren, Maybe we'll get those block propagation times long before then with a hard fork of the block size | 22:36 |
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| CodeShark | has anyone build zk-SNARKS over LWE or some other quantum-resistant scheme (not based in pair-based crypto)? | 22:45 |
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| CodeShark | nobody?!?! seriously? I'm disappointed | 22:51 |
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| gmaxwell | I think noise buildup problems would be a serious concern there, as the depth of the computation for pratical issues are quite deep. | 22:52 |
| gmaxwell | other kinds of ZKP based on fiat shamir and linear codes should be quantum strong; but no really feasable ones have been constructed yet. | 22:53 |
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| CodeShark | couldn't the noise issues be handled at the cost of space or time complexity? | 22:54 |
| CodeShark | doesn't fully homomorphic crypto imply zkp? | 22:56 |
| gmaxwell | ZKP requires much less than ZKP. | 22:57 |
| CodeShark | zkp does not require fully homomorphic crypto | 22:57 |
| gmaxwell | er right. | 22:57 |
| gmaxwell | I wasn't saying it couldn't be done, just that it may not be anywhere near as efficient as even the linear code based schemes. | 22:57 |
| gmaxwell | Anyways, perhaps email Craig Gentry; since he's worked on all of these things. | 22:58 |
| CodeShark | google search turns up a baseball player :p | 22:58 |
| CodeShark | ok, I think I found the right guy now | 22:59 |
| CodeShark | stanford? | 22:59 |
| CodeShark | oh, no...berkeley | 23:00 |
| CodeShark | will P != NP be proven in our lifetimes? and what the hell is wrong with our axioms? | 23:00 |
| gmaxwell | (in particular, the SNARK stuff is based on his work, as was the breakthrough of slightly feasble FHE based on LWE.) | 23:01 |
| CodeShark | computational complexity is at once one of the most useful mathematical theories AND one of the mathematical theories with the least ability to actually prove its main claims | 23:01 |
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| CodeShark | imagine archimedes sitting around and saying "we believe there's an infinite number of primes but we can't prove it" - I guess euclid's parallel postulate is a closer parallel | 23:03 |
| CodeShark | (pun intended) | 23:03 |
| gmaxwell | there are many unproven things which seem totally trivial. | 23:04 |
| CodeShark | in this case it must have something to do with our axioms | 23:08 |
| CodeShark | i.e. P != NP is independent of diagonalization methods | 23:08 |
| bramc | CodeShark, There are the relativization, naturalization, and algebrization barriers to showing P!=NP, which combined together exclude almost all classes of approaches to the problem, although there's been some (comically limited, but still extraordinarily impressive) work which has gotten around them. There's a plausible approach which requires merely proving a generalization of a generalization of a generalization of th | 23:09 |
| bramc | e riemann conjecture | 23:09 |
| CodeShark | hah | 23:09 |
| CodeShark | it all seems to come back to the riemann conjecture | 23:09 |
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| gmaxwell | there are zillions of things which imply P!=NP, e.g. existance of one way functions implies P!=NP. | 23:10 |
| bramc | the riemann conjecture is directly related to the general problem of pseudorandomness, because it's equivalent to a statement about the error term in the formula for the approximate number of primes less than a given value | 23:10 |
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| gmaxwell | proof of any of the zillions of proven NP-complete problems is not in P would also prove P!=NP. | 23:11 |
| bramc | CodeShark, Your guess that there's a deep issue along the lines of diagonalization not working is essentially correct. You can look up 'relativization computational complexity' and 'naturalization computational complexity' for more info | 23:12 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, That... doesn't help | 23:12 |
| CodeShark | so we're missing some basic axioms here...or perhaps the universe allows for a computational model where P = NP | 23:13 |
| gmaxwell | There actually has been a lot of interesting progress in complexity theory on bounding approximations (which is often more pratically interesting than P/NP in any case) | 23:13 |
| bramc | Adding axioms is unlikely to help, unless you add an axiom just saying P != NP, which is, uh, not useful. | 23:13 |
| CodeShark | well, the point is that perhaps like the parallel postulate, we can formulate a fully self-consistent theory where P = NP | 23:14 |
| bramc | CodeShark, Probably not, P vs. NP doesn't have the same kind of untouchable feel as the sorts of problems where those issues come up. | 23:15 |
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| bramc | Certainly not like the parallel postulate, p != np is either true or false in a much stricter sense than the parallel postulate. | 23:16 |
| CodeShark | well, sorta - I would argue that to ancient geometers, the parallel postulate also seemed to be pretty strictly true or false | 23:16 |
| CodeShark | of course, allowing it to be false forced us to change the definition of "straight" | 23:17 |
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| bramc | there's a deep philosophical distinction between 'independent' and 'true but unprovable' | 23:17 |
| CodeShark | perhaps near black holes or near the big bang, P = NP or something :p | 23:18 |
| CodeShark | our concepts of time and space fly out the window | 23:19 |
| bramc | There has been some interesting work done on computational complexity around the surface of a black hole, but it doesn't relate to whether P!=NP, because it's a different computational model | 23:19 |
| bramc | The more immediate and interesting question is the one of quantum complexity, which has a much more, ahem, complex relationship with classical complexity than popular writings indicate. | 23:20 |
| CodeShark | but even quantum complexity suggests P != NP...with problems strictly contained in NP and strictly containing P | 23:20 |
| bramc | In the meantime we have symmetric key primitives which are *probably* just fine, albeit rather inefficient compared with optimal constructions. | 23:21 |
| bramc | Yeah, quantum computation doesn't speed up all that many things all that much. | 23:21 |
| CodeShark | there's probably something fundamentally wrong with our notions of time and space as applied to complexity classes | 23:22 |
| CodeShark | we know that the universe doesn't quite work that way | 23:22 |
| CodeShark | turing machines and their kin use somewhat contrived notions of them | 23:22 |
| CodeShark | which our theories in physics suggest otherwise | 23:23 |
| bramc | turing machines and the like are a good representation of any 'reasonable' model of computation. Quantum mechanics is not a reasonable model of computation :-) | 23:23 |
| CodeShark | lol | 23:23 |
| bramc | We have no reason to think, for example, that the human brain pulls off any sort of quantum trickery to do its reasoning. | 23:23 |
| CodeShark | well, some people do | 23:23 |
| CodeShark | reminds me of conversations with Penrose :p | 23:24 |
| CodeShark | the superposition principle does seem to apply to our conscious perception in some subtle ways...like our ability to imagine something in many different states at once | 23:25 |
| CodeShark | our ability to hypothesize...to consider potential outcomes that haven't yet manifested | 23:25 |
| bramc | *sigh* superposition has nothing to do with consciousness, and penrose's theories of the brain are, sadly, strictly wackadoodle. | 23:26 |
| bramc | Considering potential outcomes doesn't require quantum anything. Chess programs do it quite well. | 23:27 |
| CodeShark | the ability to abstract...to remove the concrete...and replace it with variables that can take on entire ranges | 23:27 |
| CodeShark | the more advanced we get in math, the more we do this | 23:28 |
| bramc | Again, this is not even vaguely quantum stuff | 23:28 |
| CodeShark | we make statements that apply to entire infinite sets at once | 23:28 |
| bramc | If you're really interested in the computer scientist view of quantum mechanics, you can look through the 'quantum computing since democritus' stuff by scott aaronson. | 23:29 |
| CodeShark | all we need are negative probabilities and we're there :p | 23:29 |
| bramc | quantum mechanics is basically complex probabilities whose magnitude is less than 1 | 23:30 |
| CodeShark | well, the interesting thing is how those probabilities interfere | 23:30 |
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| CodeShark | from continuous waves we get discrete events... | 23:31 |
| CodeShark | "complex probabilities whose magnitude is less than 1" is the kind of phrase you get when one's math formalisms are way far ahead of one's sensory intuition :p | 23:33 |
| CodeShark | in a sense, the development of the language behind complex numbers is a little unfortunate because opportunities were missed to make it a little more intuitive | 23:35 |
| CodeShark | i.e. the spinor/rotor language...or geometric algebra | 23:35 |
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| CodeShark | then you end up with things like pauli matrices - which are perfectly legit mathematical formalisms...but bear very little connection to our sensory experience | 23:37 |
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| CodeShark | It's worthwhile to read through Hestenes' reformulations to try to regain some geometric insight | 23:41 |
| bramc | This conversation has strayed far enough off topic | 23:42 |
| moa | CodeShark: geometric algebra is the biz | 23:42 |
| CodeShark | indeed, moa :) | 23:42 |
| moa | i'll PM you | 23:42 |
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| the_last | wat | 23:53 |
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| --- Log closed Sat Jun 20 00:00:46 2015 | ||
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