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| Emcy | is it worth signing up for the new dev list | 04:00 |
|---|---|---|
| kinlo | aren't we being migrated? | 04:00 |
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| Emcy | thats why i said new dev list | 04:00 |
| kinlo | last mail I read was that the new list was in test only, and that you could subscribe to test | 04:01 |
| kinlo | oh | 04:01 |
| kinlo | didn't read the last mail yet | 04:01 |
| kinlo | seems we do need to subscribe manually | 04:02 |
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| wumpus | yes, you need to subscribe to the new dev list manually. Whether it's worth it is up to you (and off topic), the old one is defunct. | 04:23 |
| kinlo | wumpus: I'd assume ppl would get migrated, but indeed, it's offtopic to discuss the sf soap | 04:31 |
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| wumpus | auto-subscribing people to mailing lists is considered bad netiquette, and this is an opportunity to get rid of inactive subscribtions. To see if you missed any messages see the archives: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/ | 04:35 |
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| wumpus | there was an 'emergency migration' mail to the old list, but I think no one got it because of sourceforge's mass bounce mess-up | 04:36 |
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| fluffypony | http://www.dwavesys.com/press-releases/d-wave-systems-breaks-1000-qubit-quantum-computing-barrier | 07:02 |
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| nsh | 'qubit' | 07:07 |
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| StephenM347 | Is there a notation for an HD path of a public point derived from a path of hardened children? i.e. point(m/44'/0'/0') | 07:21 |
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| StephenM347 | M/44'/0'/0' doesn't really seem right because you can't derive 44' from M | 07:22 |
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| StephenM347 | By 'a notation' I mean something other than point(...), as that's not really a common notation for a path | 07:22 |
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| Eliel | wumpus: at least I received the emergency migration mail. | 07:32 |
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| nsh | StephenM347, what's used in the HD wallet BIP? | 07:36 |
| StephenM347 | nsh: N(...), I think | 07:37 |
| nsh | https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0032.mediawiki#Private_parent_key_rarr_private_child_key | 07:37 |
| nsh | serP(point(kpar)) || ser32(i)). | 07:37 |
| nsh | that's a serialized point though i think | 07:37 |
| StephenM347 | nsh: I'm more thinking about notation for a parseable path that can be saved and used to re-derive the key later | 07:39 |
| StephenM347 | Not notation that is easy to read in a paper or something | 07:39 |
| * nsh nods | 07:39 | |
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| Eliel | Bitcoin has some perceived decentralization problems due to the mining and mining pool thing. I just realized that this is due to the market realizing there are two separate jobs in mining that Bitcoin design tried to mix up. One job is to be a witness (mining pools) for the state of the ledger and the other is to carve the witnessed state into permanent ledger (miners). | 11:45 |
| Eliel | the witness job looks to be one that needs to be tied to an identity. So might as well make use of that and have a cryptographic identity for each witness. Then it'd become possible for witnesses to witness each other witnesseses witnessing and thus form a data structure that could be difficult to forge. Especially if we have miners cementing that structure. | 11:50 |
| Eliel | it'd create a kind of a witness network where the presence of witness loops (or cycles) in the network graph would allow verifying the entire structure as long as you trust one single witness somewhere. | 11:53 |
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| Eliel | there could also be two levels of witnesses. Ledger witnesses and witness witnesses. The first ones are those who verify the ledger. The witness witnesses just witness the witnessing and record that. | 11:55 |
| kanzure | yes i believe this strategy is called "ask a friend" | 11:55 |
| * nsh blinks | 11:56 | |
| * kanzure witnesses nsh blinking | 11:56 | |
| nsh | i'm pretty sure you can't witness things cyclically without a time machine | 11:56 |
| * Eliel witnesses kanzure witnessing nsh blinking | 11:56 | |
| Eliel | (now, if kanzure witnessed my witnessing of his witnessing, there would be the kind of cycle I talk about) | 11:57 |
| kanzure | and why would that be useful? | 11:57 |
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| kanzure | proof-of-work forgeproofing works because it puts an economic floor on the cost of the probability of you being tricked | 11:58 |
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| kanzure | otherwise it's just absurdly cheap | 11:58 |
| Eliel | because, everyone who's part of the cycle must cooperate to succesfully falsify the data. If it becomes possible for anyone to be part of the witnessing network... | 11:59 |
| Eliel | well, the data structure would become enormous but no-one needs all of it. | 11:59 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure it requires individuals to falsify the data- for sufficiently large networks, most users will not be able to practically meet and know each person or memorize their keys, so it's more likely that large networks are just randomly generated sybils | 11:59 |
| Eliel | each individual node can do just fine with a few verified "connections" they witness. | 12:00 |
| kanzure | i think that you might have more success narrowing the scope of which things you want to make unfalisifiable | 12:00 |
| Eliel | as long as that connects them to the network | 12:00 |
| Eliel | this is sufficient for timestamping. | 12:01 |
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| Eliel | in short, it doesn't matter if falsifying the ledger is simple if anyone you want to fool then has the data they need to prove you abused your witnessing powers. | 12:03 |
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| Eliel | in such a case, you don't need a lot of ledger witnesses. As long as it's possible to add more or even completely replace them in the event that the existing ones prove themselves to be completely untrustworthy. | 12:14 |
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| zooko | Eliel: I liked Joe Bonneau's paper on "Agile Tokens". It seems kind of relevant to what you were talking about -- "ledger witnesses". | 12:53 |
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| ThinThread | why the block height isnt in the block header? | 17:20 |
| phantomcircuit | ThinThread, why would it need to be in the block header? | 17:23 |
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| CodeShark | so in the end, blockchains are just going to be dispute resolution mechanisms - sort of like a fix to the prisoner's dilemma, making cooperation the equilibrium strategy | 18:56 |
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| CodeShark | and a second potential application for them is censorship resistance...but this one's a little less clear to me | 18:58 |
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| leakypat | CodeShark: is this in reference to the hyperledger thing ? | 19:20 |
| CodeShark | leakypat: not specifically... | 19:21 |
| CodeShark | leakypat: just a general observation :p | 19:21 |
| leakypat | The word blockchain is one of those catch on words | 19:21 |
| leakypat | It's now used to loosely describe anything that uses distributed data and crypto of some kind | 19:22 |
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| Eliel | yes, it's becoming somewhat too broad of a word to be useful in the general sense it's being used. | 20:08 |
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| leakypat | Funny to watch Blythe Mathers talk about this | 20:13 |
| leakypat | "Make no mistake, this will change everything" | 20:13 |
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| leakypat | The tech has been around and possible for years, it is a case of banks collaborating and building a system they all use | 20:14 |
| leakypat | *Masters | 20:16 |
| CodeShark | distributed ledgers aren't the exact same thing as a trustless dispute resolution mechanism | 20:17 |
| CodeShark | although they surely are ultimately a building block | 20:17 |
| leakypat | It's probably a lot better business this stuff, for profit *now* | 20:19 |
| * leakypat imagines the consultancy fees | 20:19 | |
| leakypat | It's annoying how certain people position it as some competitor to Bitcoin | 20:20 |
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| CodeShark | the real breakthroughs right now seem to be happening in the area of how to construct proofs over these ledgers with minimal need for validation | 20:40 |
| CodeShark | the default behavior is to assume cooperation - but if there's a dispute, both parties do worse than had they cooperated | 20:41 |
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| CodeShark | and the proofs are based on interactive cryptographic protocols | 20:42 |
| CodeShark | or noninteractive...in the case of the need to take the dispute global | 20:43 |
| CodeShark | but that's usually only a last resort | 20:43 |
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| CodeShark | the key is to try to make it so that the need to validate is the exception rather than the rule...or at least can be done using nondeterministic sampling | 20:46 |
| CodeShark | or preferably both :) | 20:46 |
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| moa | the blockchain is judge, jury and executioner in a smart contract | 20:49 |
| CodeShark | right, moa...but it's best not to even have to take the case to court :) | 20:50 |
| moa | which is the default behavioour in a civilised society | 20:51 |
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| moa | smart contracts are probably more properly referred to as executable contracts | 20:53 |
| zooko | Dumb, but executable. | 20:53 |
| moa | otherwise what if there was smart smart contract, like and executable contract that was well-written? | 20:53 |
| zooko | "smart" means (a) drains your battery faster, (b) doesn't work sometimes for random reasons, (c) is loyal to a large remote corporation instead of to you. | 20:53 |
| moa | right | 20:54 |
| moa | clever smart contracts? | 20:54 |
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| CodeShark | (a) and (b) could be mitigated somewhat with good engineering, but (c) is still a problem :p | 21:09 |
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| CodeShark | it's already hard enough with the current EULA crap we have to read - imagine the average joe having to analyze code :p | 21:14 |
| zooko | CodeShark: the average joe needs a bot on his side. | 21:15 |
| CodeShark | sooner or later you run into either complexity or undecidability issues | 21:16 |
| CodeShark | at least if P != NP :p | 21:16 |
| zooko | Um, I'm skeptical. | 21:16 |
| CodeShark | there's always ways to fool a bot | 21:16 |
| zooko | The bot that fights for the user doesn't need to statically analyze the code. | 21:17 |
| zooko | (Note: can we call it Tron, please?) | 21:17 |
| CodeShark | lol | 21:17 |
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| moa | wonder if 'Tron' or "I fight for the user" are trademarked? | 21:19 |
| moa | apparently it is ... google search shows up a 1989 email exchange to a usenet newsgroup asking/answering that question ! | 21:23 |
| CodeShark | smart attorneybots? | 21:25 |
| CodeShark | attorneybot contracts? | 21:26 |
| moa | expert witness = oracles | 21:27 |
| CodeShark | this is definitely going to get very interesting :) | 21:27 |
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| zooko | By the way, Tron was Alan Kay. | 21:43 |
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| leakypat | So 3 big pools have come out against the XT hard fork now... | 23:20 |
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| leakypat | Oops, misleading headline in coin telegraph , my bad | 23:33 |
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| --- Log closed Fri Jun 26 00:00:38 2015 | ||
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