| --- Log opened Wed Jul 01 00:00:57 2015 | ||
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| amiller | the new "Enigma" project from MIT media lab... it's multi-party computation on the blockchain http://enigma.media.mit.edu/ | 01:43 |
|---|---|---|
| amiller | whitepaper [x] scholarly paper [ ] code [ ] | 01:44 |
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| amiller | i can't figure it out: are they just proposing to put the entire transcript of a generic multi-party computation on the blockchain? or is there some fancy way of compressing that down | 01:46 |
| gmaxwell | you can tell by the 'media' in the URL. | 01:46 |
| gmaxwell | amiller: there is a trivial way to compress it down, as discussed here before in the past; dunno what they suggest. | 01:46 |
| gmaxwell | (any turn based MPC you have the players sign off at each step with a state commitment, so you can truncate the transcript.. if they complete and all sign the final step, you can just elide the whole transcript) | 01:47 |
| amiller | gmaxwell, ok i know what you mean - they're claiming this defends against users/clients/public against ALL of the MPC nodes going bad | 01:48 |
| amiller | but | 01:48 |
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| M-_mis | ' "invalidate by signature, not by censorship" —@CodeShark | 01:49 |
| gmaxwell | uhh. not sure how that works unless the MPC is active secure and produces ZKPs as a side effect (many active secure ideas are just passive secure plus a ZKP, so thats not far fetched). | 01:50 |
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| midnightmagic | lol, DHT rises again | 02:04 |
| amiller | yeah that's the next big problem | 02:09 |
| amiller | there's just a DHT thats assumed to work | 02:09 |
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| amiller | another problem is they don't seem to put much thought into protecting your data from colluding nodes | 02:12 |
| amiller | this is from the wired article: "If enough Enigma nodes work together, they can team up to decrypt and steal the user’s data. But that kind of collusion isn’t likely, says Zyskind." | 02:12 |
| gmaxwell | :-/ | 02:13 |
| amiller | but section 5.3 "network reduction" actually makes that much worse: "a random subset of the entire network is selected to perform a computation" | 02:14 |
| gmaxwell | makes me think of that torcoin paper where they just defined out sybil attacks. | 02:14 |
| CodeShark | if you can't change the theory change the facts :p | 02:15 |
| CodeShark | and pretend like someone's done the math but don't want to bore them with the details if anyone asks | 02:16 |
| CodeShark | decentralization without proper incentives == centralization with a lot of extra headache | 02:17 |
| gmaxwell | sounds like an interesting effort in any case, I've queued it to actually read. | 02:21 |
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| nsh | DHT plus secret-sharing plus threshold computation plus blockchain for access and reference | 02:32 |
| nsh | plus a lot of hyperbole | 02:32 |
| amiller | they have a peer-reviewed workshop paper (paper) http://web.media.mit.edu/~guyzys/data/ZNP15.pdf (slides) http://ieee-security.org/TC/SPW2015/IWPE/5.pdf | 02:33 |
| CodeShark | ehm...what can I say...I encourage people to think about these kinds of issues :) | 02:34 |
| amiller | yeah, definitely | 02:36 |
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| nsh | it's all grist [and probably unpruneable UTXOs] to the mill | 02:38 |
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| CodeShark | oh he's even got Gentry's "Fully homomorphic encryption using ideal lattices." in his biblio :p | 02:54 |
| CodeShark | or they, I should say | 02:54 |
| amiller | that's fine, it doesn't overstate anything about FHE... although the wired article makes it seem like FHE is what they're doing :) | 02:57 |
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| amiller | "Using Bitcoin security deposits for punishing malicious nodes in MPC has been investigated by several scholars recently [22, 23]. We use a similar model, and extend it to penalize other malicious behaviors such as breaking correctness" | 03:31 |
| amiller | so, the other academic papers on multiparty computing in Bitcoin, including [22, 23] are way further along | 03:31 |
| amiller | these are peer reviewed a lot more strictly... viciously might be the best word... in the most selective conferences like Crypto and Oakland | 03:33 |
| amiller | the main novelty Enigma is claiming compared to those is enforcing correctness even if a majority of the nodes in a computation are corrupted | 03:35 |
| amiller | but that's exactly the thing that seems (unless we missed something surprising!) to add totally impractical on-chain costs | 03:35 |
| amiller | they forgot a subsequent CCS paper (another elite conference) by authors of [22] http://people.csail.mit.edu/ranjit/papers/incentives.pdf and a new preprint by other authors http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/574 | 03:38 |
| amiller | all of these feature *off chain multi-party computations*! | 03:39 |
| amiller | and thats a great idea | 03:40 |
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| nsh | those last two papers (and talks at simons inst.) were pretty impressive | 03:43 |
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| amiller | speaking of which... the "spacecoin" author also visited simons inst. i appreciate the spacecoin paper way more now after watching its author bash with bramc at the sf bitcoin dev meetup | 03:58 |
| nsh | was that recorded? | 03:59 |
| amiller | i thought it was. but i can't find it on here http://www.meetup.com/SF-Bitcoin-Devs/events/223291673/ | 04:00 |
| nsh | ah | 04:00 |
| nsh | .wik Pebble motion problems | 04:04 |
| yoleaux | "The pebble motion problems, or pebble motion on graphs, are a set of related problems in graph theory dealing with the movement of multiple objects ("pebbles") from vertex to vertex in a graph with a constraint on the number of pebbles that can occupy a vertex at any time. Pebble motion problems occur in domains such as multi-robot motion …" — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_motion_problems | 04:04 |
| amiller | pebbling is a proof technique in cryptography, it's good for showing that there's no space-time tradeoff in various ways | 04:05 |
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| amiller | i guess its always used to show something about time-memory tradeoffs | 04:06 |
| amiller | the hard-to-parallelize ones i think don't use that proof technique | 04:06 |
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| nsh | ah | 04:07 |
| nsh | .wik Pebble game | 04:08 |
| yoleaux | "In mathematics and computer science, a pebble game is a type of mathematical game played by moving "pebbles" or "markers" on a directed graph. A variety of different pebble games exist. A general definition of pebbling is given below." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_game | 04:08 |
| amiller | here's i think the first one to do that http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hoeteck/pubs/pebble-crypto05.pdf to do that | 04:09 |
| nsh | and this comes up: High Parallel Complexity Graphs and Memory-Hard Functions -- https://eprint.iacr.org/2014/238.pdf | 04:10 |
| amiller | yup, would you believe that was also a talk at simons isnt. but it went unrecorded | 04:11 |
| nsh | shame | 04:11 |
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| nsh | "Commonly G describes the dependencies between inputs, intermediate values and the outputs involved in computing f_G." # interesting. i wonder what a pebbling of a hash collision looks like | 04:16 |
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| nsh | what was the wizardly-wisdom on the darkleaks concept? i seem to recall some theoretical issue with the random reveal scheme maybe | 06:28 |
| nsh | ( https://github.com/darkwallet/darkleaks ) | 06:29 |
| nsh | wow, google sure updates the logs for this channel with gusto... 20s after writing that line it was a result in a search. | 06:30 |
| nsh | ah, found " though sadly the utility is kind of narrow. The class of information where a random sample doesn't stand a risk of giving away all the value, and where the value can't be sapped by a few careful redactions which sampling is unlikely to reveal (even if it hits them, you can't tell what was missing), I think is not so broad." -- gmax | 06:31 |
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| Taek | Is there a good definition for the idea of a 'political entity'? | 11:07 |
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| Taek | i.e., Google, while composed of 10,000s of people, is generally considered as 1 entity, because everyone acts with united purpose | 11:08 |
| Taek | and so Google owning 51% mining power would be very bad | 11:09 |
| Taek | even if no particular person is controlling more than 20% of the mining rigs within Google | 11:09 |
| Taek | something like the coalition of mining pools in China wouldn't necessarily be considered 1 political entity though, because their common goals are under very constrained terms | 11:10 |
| ThinThread | is humanity a (possibly galactic) political entity? | 11:11 |
| Taek | they are 1 entity as far as their cooperation around 8mb blocks is concerned, but beyond that they can be considered separate | 11:11 |
| Taek | I think it depends on what set of goals you are considering | 11:11 |
| ThinThread | i like to focus on our similarities instead of our differences | 11:12 |
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| Taek | that's great, but understanding our differences is useful for constructing threat models | 11:13 |
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| waxwing | nsh: one issue with that repo was use of ECB mode :) | 12:22 |
| nsh | darkleaks? | 12:22 |
| waxwing | yeah | 12:23 |
| nsh | :/ | 12:23 |
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| waxwing | the kind of issue you mention in the quote above, yeah that's an issue. the most obvious application, given that limitation, seems like the most depressing: password database leaks | 12:26 |
| waxwing | but maybe that's too pessimistic, one could imagine other use cases perhaps | 12:26 |
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| amiller | hi GGuyZ | 18:15 |
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| amiller | GGuyZ, your connection seems super unstable! you should try an irc bouncer like znc | 18:17 |
| GGuyZ | Unfortunately it's my wifi that's going crazy. I'll leave the channel for a bit to prevent spamming :). | 18:18 |
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| amiller | sadfjpo | 18:18 |
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| moa | http://it.slashdot.org/story/15/07/01/0214248 | 19:59 |
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| --- Log closed Thu Jul 02 00:00:58 2015 | ||
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