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shen_noe | andytoshi / gmaxwell, if you remember I was asking last week about making a ring sig version of CT: consider if you instead used keypairs (C_i, P_i) consisting of an input commitment C_i and destination address P_i (so they must always be spent together) and if you do a ring sig over ( P_1 + C_1 - \Sum C_out, ..., P_s + C_s - \sum C_out, ..., P_n + C_n - \Sum C_out ) | 16:56 |
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shen_noe | so that C_i - \Sum C_out is a commitment to zero for some i | 16:56 |
shen_noe | and since P_s = x_s G then P_s + C_s - \sum C_out is also a commitment to zero | 16:57 |
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gmaxwell | adam wrote a whole post on ring sig this; on bitcointalk | 17:27 |
gmaxwell | shen_noe: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=305791.msg3298692#msg3298692 | 17:28 |
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shen_noe | gmaxwell thanks! | 17:34 |
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shen_noe | wow that's impressively more thought out than mine | 17:38 |
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gmaxwell | man, PHC mailing list really kinda sucks; it's like sci.crypt in the '90s... full of handwaving noise. | 18:39 |
gmaxwell | latest thing is someone 'zomg my new scheme is turing complete and thus provably irreducable' and then waving away any need for any further analysis. | 18:40 |
gmaxwell | Nevermind the fact that it only can reach a tiny subset of all universal circuits of the size in question; and there is no reason to think that the subgroup he can reach isn't dense with trivial circuits. It also ignores the fact that the non-linear compression functions in every other PHC are almost certantly universal in the same way (with sutiable preprocessing); yet many of them have strong | 18:42 |
gmaxwell | proofs about their behavior that show their action is not trivial. | 18:42 |
gmaxwell | then the next thread is someone rediscovering collission hashcash POW, and then shortly there after realizing that it its trivially paralizable and has significant TMTO. | 18:43 |
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bramc | Hey everybody | 18:49 |
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midnightmagic | HI bram! | 18:49 |
bramc | I gave a talk on cryptocurrencies generally at the bitcoin-dev meeting in sf on monday. Hopefully it will be posted online soon. | 18:50 |
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bramc | Also made this less controversial than I expected post: https://medium.com/@bramcohen/the-inevitable-demise-of-unconfirmed-bitcoin-transactions-8b5f66a44a35 | 18:54 |
CodeShark | heh - you did write that up :) | 18:54 |
bramc | CodeShark, Yes I was totally serious about working on it. Next up: A post on basic fee setting strategy. | 18:55 |
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dgenr8 | bramc: if you're looking for controversy, don't post conventional wisdom ;p | 21:30 |
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CodeShark | dgenr8: I don't think that post is particularly controversial in this channel - but if you go elsewhere you sometimes find these vehement voices insisting we continue to encourage merchant adoption even if it means encouraging them to accept zero confirmation transactions | 22:04 |
CodeShark | but I think the "controversy" tends to miss the real point...which is that zero confirmation transactions cannot rely on very much of Bitcoin's security model | 22:05 |
CodeShark | but it's conceivably ok to accept them given a reasonable security/risk model for the particular use case | 22:06 |
CodeShark | however, given that most people using bitcoin have no clue what this means it's better to discourage zero confirmation transactions | 22:06 |
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CodeShark | unless we give them good tools to support such use cases (i.e. subscription services that can be pulled upon double-spend detection) | 22:10 |
dgenr8 | CodeShark: people like Balaji Srinivasan say things like "I'm confident the developers are working hard on solving this problem." He's mistaken. And by that I do not mean it's not worth working on. Only that nobody really is. | 22:10 |
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CodeShark | solving which problem? the public perception? or the fact that zero confirmation transactions aren't really secure? | 22:11 |
CodeShark | or double-spend detection? | 22:12 |
CodeShark | fairly reliable double-spend detection would already be a significant breakthrough :) | 22:13 |
CodeShark | the "only relay first" policy makes it trivially simple to split the network | 22:13 |
petertodd | CodeShark: double-spends can happen succesfully well after the first tx, even without miners adopting rbf | 22:13 |
dgenr8 | CodeShark: no need to convince me | 22:13 |
petertodd | CodeShark: just run a full-rbf node and watch the logs, you see lots of succesful doublepsends | 22:14 |
CodeShark | petertodd: yes, I'm not saying that absence of a double-spend detection implies the unconfirmed transaction is safe :) | 22:14 |
CodeShark | I'm just pointing out that our current tools don't even do this particularly well | 22:15 |
petertodd | CodeShark: point is, without the ability to do something about the double-spend, it doesn't help much | 22:15 |
CodeShark | petertodd: you can if you're selling services like web hosting :) | 22:15 |
dgenr8 | petertodd: doing something about it is not the realm of bitcoin. it's in the realm of real life | 22:15 |
petertodd | CodeShark: if you're selling web-hosting, learning about the double-spend when the tx confirms is fine | 22:16 |
petertodd | dgenr8: ^ | 22:16 |
dgenr8 | CodeShark: bramc compares zeroconf to life before bitcoin. that fails to ask how the existence of the blockchain alters the problem. i've looked into it somewhat https://github.com/dgenr8/out-there/blob/master/ds-dep-win.md | 22:16 |
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CodeShark | ultimately I think the blockchain is a dispute resolution mechanism. problem is we have no retroactive repudiation mechanisms :) | 22:18 |
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CodeShark | it's a feature...and a flaw | 22:18 |
CodeShark | depending on your point of view :) | 22:19 |
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CodeShark | I think it's dangerous to rely on relay nodes enforcing rules. unfortunately, we've sort of ended up in exactly this situation | 22:21 |
gmaxwell | relay nodes enforcing doesn't do much good in any case. | 22:21 |
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dgenr8 | there's a tendency to define the p2p network as what it isn't, and if everything you hear is true, it's not much of anything ;) otoh if having contracts with miners is bad, the p2p network has to be something. | 22:24 |
gmaxwell | dgenr8: what do you know about people making "contracts" with miners? | 22:27 |
dgenr8 | only what coinbase wrote on the mailing list, which seemed a natural reaction to full-rbf | 22:29 |
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