2015-07-03.log

--- Log opened Fri Jul 03 00:00:59 2015
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shen_noeandytoshi / gmaxwell, if you remember I was asking last week about making a ring sig version of CT: consider if you instead used keypairs (C_i, P_i) consisting of an input commitment C_i and destination address P_i (so they must always be spent together) and if you do a ring sig over ( P_1 + C_1 - \Sum C_out, ..., P_s + C_s - \sum C_out, ..., P_n + C_n - \Sum C_out )16:56
shen_noeso that C_i - \Sum C_out is a commitment to zero for some i16:56
shen_noeand since P_s = x_s G then P_s + C_s - \sum C_out is also a commitment to zero16:57
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gmaxwelladam wrote a whole post on ring sig this; on bitcointalk17:27
gmaxwellshen_noe: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=305791.msg3298692#msg329869217:28
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shen_noegmaxwell thanks!17:34
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shen_noewow that's impressively more thought out than mine17:38
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gmaxwellman, PHC mailing list really kinda sucks; it's like sci.crypt in the '90s... full of handwaving noise.18:39
gmaxwelllatest thing is someone 'zomg my new scheme is turing complete and thus provably irreducable' and then waving away any need for any further analysis.18:40
gmaxwellNevermind the fact that it only can reach a tiny subset of all universal circuits of the size in question; and there is no reason to think that the subgroup he can reach isn't dense with trivial circuits.  It also ignores the fact that the non-linear compression functions in every other PHC are almost certantly universal in the same way (with sutiable preprocessing); yet many of them have strong18:42
gmaxwellproofs about their behavior that show their action is not trivial.18:42
gmaxwellthen the next thread is someone rediscovering collission hashcash POW, and then shortly there after realizing that it its trivially paralizable and has significant TMTO.18:43
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bramcHey everybody18:49
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midnightmagicHI bram!18:49
bramcI gave a talk on cryptocurrencies generally at the bitcoin-dev meeting in sf on monday. Hopefully it will be posted online soon.18:50
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bramcAlso made this less controversial than I expected post: https://medium.com/@bramcohen/the-inevitable-demise-of-unconfirmed-bitcoin-transactions-8b5f66a44a3518:54
CodeSharkheh - you did write that up :)18:54
bramcCodeShark, Yes I was totally serious about working on it. Next up: A post on basic fee setting strategy.18:55
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dgenr8bramc: if you're looking for controversy, don't post conventional wisdom ;p21:30
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CodeSharkdgenr8: I don't think that post is particularly controversial in this channel - but if you go elsewhere you sometimes find these vehement voices insisting we continue to encourage merchant adoption even if it means encouraging them to accept zero confirmation transactions22:04
CodeSharkbut I think the "controversy" tends to miss the real point...which is that zero confirmation transactions cannot rely on very much of Bitcoin's security model22:05
CodeSharkbut it's conceivably ok to accept them given a reasonable security/risk model for the particular use case22:06
CodeSharkhowever, given that most people using bitcoin have no clue what this means it's better to discourage zero confirmation transactions22:06
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CodeSharkunless we give them good tools to support such use cases (i.e. subscription services that can be pulled upon double-spend detection)22:10
dgenr8CodeShark: people like Balaji Srinivasan say things like "I'm confident the developers are working hard on solving this problem."  He's mistaken.  And by that I do not mean it's not worth working on.  Only that nobody really is.22:10
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CodeSharksolving which problem? the public perception? or the fact that zero confirmation transactions aren't really secure?22:11
CodeSharkor double-spend detection?22:12
CodeSharkfairly reliable double-spend detection would already be a significant breakthrough :)22:13
CodeSharkthe "only relay first" policy makes it trivially simple to split the network22:13
petertoddCodeShark: double-spends can happen succesfully well after the first tx, even without miners adopting rbf22:13
dgenr8CodeShark: no need to convince me22:13
petertoddCodeShark: just run a full-rbf node and watch the logs, you see lots of succesful doublepsends22:14
CodeSharkpetertodd: yes, I'm not saying that absence of a double-spend detection implies the unconfirmed transaction is safe :)22:14
CodeSharkI'm just pointing out that our current tools don't even do this particularly well22:15
petertoddCodeShark: point is, without the ability to do something about the double-spend, it doesn't help much22:15
CodeSharkpetertodd: you can if you're selling services like web hosting :)22:15
dgenr8petertodd: doing something about it is not the realm of bitcoin.  it's in the realm of real life22:15
petertoddCodeShark: if you're selling web-hosting, learning about the double-spend when the tx confirms is fine22:16
petertodddgenr8: ^22:16
dgenr8CodeShark: bramc compares zeroconf to life before bitcoin.  that fails to ask how the existence of the blockchain alters the problem.  i've looked into it somewhat https://github.com/dgenr8/out-there/blob/master/ds-dep-win.md22:16
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CodeSharkultimately I think the blockchain is a dispute resolution mechanism. problem is we have no retroactive repudiation mechanisms :)22:18
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CodeSharkit's a feature...and a flaw22:18
CodeSharkdepending on your point of view :)22:19
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CodeSharkI think it's dangerous to rely on relay nodes enforcing rules. unfortunately, we've sort of ended up in exactly this situation22:21
gmaxwellrelay nodes enforcing doesn't do much good in any case.22:21
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dgenr8there's a tendency to define the p2p network as what it isn't, and if everything you hear is true, it's not much of anything ;)  otoh if having contracts with miners is bad, the p2p network has to be something.22:24
gmaxwelldgenr8: what do you know about people making "contracts" with miners?22:27
dgenr8only what coinbase wrote on the mailing list, which seemed a natural reaction to full-rbf22:29
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