2015-07-07.log

--- Log opened Tue Jul 07 00:00:03 2015
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TheLastwhy are you allowed to send transactions without any fee?01:26
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Adlaifees are a DDoS resistence mechanism. mining is [currently] subsidized by inflation.01:29
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TheLastexactly, so why does the network allow you to send transactions without paying any fee?01:29
TheLastshould these not be blocked entirely to prevent spam attacks01:30
TheLastlike the one we're currently seeing01:31
Adlai"spam" is fiction. there is a price for priority insertion to the ledger, and it adapts based on the queue size and how much others are willing to pay.01:32
gmaxwellTheLast: those attackers are paying fees. very tiny fees, but normally transactions pay very tiny fees.01:33
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gmaxwellZerocash circuits published http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2015-July/025977.html01:56
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TheLastgmaxwell: do you think these spam attacks are bad for Bitcoin?02:13
gmaxwellTheLast: I don't think most people notice them at all, due to reasonably prioritization policies in some miners most txn go though without much delay.02:15
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gmaxwellAFAICT it's some promotion stunt to raise attention for some scammy website or something, who knows, who cares.02:16
stonecoldpatTheLast: considering these spam attacks and network forks, the price of bitcoin remains unaffected (has in fact gone up) -  so most users dont really care02:16
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CodeShark_stonecoldpat:  I don't think most users aren't even really aware. Did anyone even cover these things in the popular press?02:36
gmaxwellCodeShark_: if the attacks mattered people would be aware of them without coverage!02:37
CodeShark_*are02:37
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CodeShark_gmaxwell: did you compile that dropped tx list?02:38
gmaxwellCodeShark_: still reindexing; :( lost a couple hours away from power, it'll be done in the morning.02:39
gmaxwellspeaking of that, goodnight02:39
CodeShark_goodnight02:39
stonecoldpatnight, and CodeShark_: I dont think there is anything in popular press which is probably a good thing (boring news)02:45
CodeSharkwell, at least some people surely noticed some unusually deep reorgs02:46
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JackHis the only available Bitcoin core version 10? unless I compile myself? For ubuntu03:39
JackHonly = latest03:39
CodeSharktry #bitcoin03:40
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amillerhttps://eprint.iacr.org/2015/430 Fast and Tradeoff-Resilient Memory-Hard Functions for Cryptocurrencies and Password Hashing12:12
amilleri don't think this has been brought up here before12:12
nshBrainOverfl0w mentioned it in may and I found it again the other week looking into pebbling to understand spacecoin security12:15
amillerhm12:16
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nshactually, no, i'm thinking of another paper12:18
zookoThere's a discussion about this topic on, um, I think on Perry's Metzdowd crypto list, right now.12:18
zookoBill Cox12:18
zookoand Solar Designer12:18
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nsh.title http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2015-July/025971.html12:19
yoleaux[Cryptography] Are Momentum and Cuckoo Cycle PoW algorithms broken?12:19
nsh(cc tromp_)12:20
amillerzooko, i don't see any discussion, just the post from bill cox... and it doesn't mention that paper12:21
nsh(same)12:21
zookoSorry . Here it is:12:22
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zookohttp://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.security.phc/310412:23
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zookoand http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.security.phc/312312:35
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zookohttp://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.security.phc/3104/focus=312613:29
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bramczooko, Password hashing schemes aren't proof of work schemes13:35
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bramcPassword hashing is supposed to be expensive to verify. Proof of work is supposed to be cheap to verify.13:36
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zookobramc: that's what that link is about.13:37
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gmaxwellzooko: bleh. I think that whole discussion is OT for PHC.  A point you may be missing there is that an ideal consensus POW function is progress free-- progress gives advantages to centeralized attackers; so thats an extra consideration around a single run of the algorithim taking a long time.13:42
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zookogmaxwell: yeah, that's a very good point.13:45
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pigeonswhat is an advantage of "memory hardness"?13:56
zookoPosted a further extension of the talking-to-myself-off-topic thread on PHC…13:56
bramcpigeons, Memory is more commodity than CPU. A memory hard problem might be more resistant to custom chips outperforming commodity ones13:56
bramcWhether that's a real benefit is a different discussion13:57
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nshthe main advantage is advancing the state of understanding of the hardness of making things hard13:58
pigeonsyeah i think i saw some info on "outperforming" being arguable considering energy use13:58
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zookoOh by the way, we did a thing: https://leastauthority.com/blog/least_authority_performs_incentive_analysis_for_ethereum.html13:59
zookoHiya polyclef!14:01
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fluffyponylol14:07
polyclefhey zooko!14:08
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Luke-Jrpigeons: basically memory-hard aims for "RAM is the ASIC"14:15
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amillerthe distinction between memory-hard and memory-bound is important here too14:21
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bramcI thought ethereum was a cow system14:21
fluffyponyit is14:22
amillerbramc, ethereum is so far a memory-throughput-bound PoW system, with plans to switch to filet mignon in a year or so14:22
bramcIt seems like the latest ethereum proof of work involves having a somewhat expensive to calculate data set which you reuse a lot14:25
bramcThe idea being that you take a seed, hash it to find out which indices you need, look up those indices, and hash them together.14:26
bramcer, actually it doesn't decide which things to hash together up front but pulls them in one at a time after hashing the last one14:29
bramcIt look annoyingly expensive to verify, basically requiring 32 megabytes of memory to run the verification process14:30
amilleryes it requires 32MB of memory to verify14:31
amillerthey just endure that verification expense14:32
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CodeShark_As long as the verification cost is near-fixed, near-independent of the pow cost, 32MB isn't such a huge cost14:37
zookoI just wrote a note to password-hashing mailing list mooting a 1 GiB cost to verify! :-(14:37
kanzureis this the same mailing list? https://password-hashing.net/interaction.html14:38
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CodeShark_But that was for server applications (i.e. authentication), no zooko?14:39
zookokanzure: yes14:39
zookoCodeShark_: no, for a cryptocurrency.14:40
CodeShark_For large servers 1GB to secure passwords isn't such a huge cost14:40
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CodeShark_But for mobile cryptocurrency wallets, 1GB is still significant14:40
zookoYeah.14:40
CodeShark_It probably won't be in a few years, though :)14:41
Luke-JrCodeShark_: well, it's also important for the PoW to be *cheap* to avoid DoS risks and minimise IBD time14:42
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zookoLuke-Jr: what's IBD stand for?14:43
Luke-JrInitial Blockchain Download14:43
Luke-JrLitecoin is slower to IBD than Bitcoin in part because of their PoW14:43
zookoHm.14:44
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CodeShark_ideally we'll eventually move to more succinct proofs that don't sacrifice security14:44
CodeShark_I don't think it's really necessary to run through the entire network history to validate the present state14:46
CodeShark_But yes, luke-jr - mSIGNA takes much longer to validate the litecoin block headers than bitcoin14:48
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CodeShark_it's also why litecoin uses separate hash functions for PoW and for indexing (I think)14:51
kanzurehmm https://github.com/jancarlsson/kapital14:52
gmaxwellkanzure: you're like a whole day late on that. :)14:53
Elielpractically speaking, there's no reason for any single person to validate any block twice. For my own use, given that I had a secure way to generate signatures with a personal high security key, I could just trust any block that's been signed with it.14:59
kanzuregmaxwell: a new low for me... alas.15:00
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fluffyponykanzure: if it's zero knowledge then how can anyone know it, duh15:02
fluffyponyalso have we spoken about how HackingTeam's dump includes a BTC wallet swiper...15:03
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kanzureno, although i think everyone saw it15:03
gmaxwellI'd pinged someone to fetch the arcive to look for bitcoin stuff.15:04
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kanzureactually, do we have a link to the swiper15:06
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fluffyponyyes hold15:12
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fluffyponyhttps://github.com/informationextraction/core-win32/blob/8eb1326959fcb5c727513b59b86386dae7463683/HM_Money.h#L6415:14
fluffyponyhttps://github.com/informationextraction/core-linux/blob/9252cba42283e71d7858292a400f6c94043ee8ff/core/src/module_money.c#L2415:14
kanzureyeesh even feathercoin? how desperate are they.15:15
fluffyponylol15:15
leakypatfluffypony: was the HT thing targeting core specifically ?15:16
fluffyponyseems so15:16
fluffypony"%APPDATA%\\Bitcoin\\wallet.dat"15:17
kanzurewhat's really weird is that you don't need to detect specific altcoins; a generic bitcoin-core sniffer would have worked fine15:17
kanzurealmost all of them have the same wallet.dat filename anyway15:17
leakypatWhat a shitty company15:17
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leakypatBy the looks of the leaks all their tools are garbage also15:18
kanzurewell to be fair they did get hacked pretty hard15:19
kanzureso might explain their approach to security as well (low quality)15:19
leakypatYep, it is very funny15:19
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leakypatAh, full RBF is so much nicer than FSS15:56
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leakypatFor progressively increasing fees FSS is only really good for an emergency one time push15:57
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leakypatAlthough that would be a godsend at the moment15:59
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bramcI've made some progress on understanding the intuitions behind the PoS paper20:57
bramcPoS has a bit of collision with proof of space and proof of steak. Maybe we should call it PSPACE to be less confusing20:57
kanzurestake20:57
kanzureas for anti-ambiguity measures, i'm all for that20:58
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bramcIt's steak I tell you, that's why they're called CoW systems20:58
kanzure"oh that's the docker thing"20:58
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bramcAnyway, an important element of the whole thing is that the amount of calculation necessary to generate the precommitment for the whole proof of space is somewhat larger than the amount of space being proven, because a significant amount of it isn't kept around21:01
bramcThe general framework is that the challenge and the root are hashed together to show which ancestors have to be revealed21:05
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bramcAnd the overall construction is set up so that you can store an appropriate subset of ancestors so that you always have what you need21:06
bramc(I guess 'almost always' would be sufficient, that may enable some improvements)21:06
bramcBut maybe as part of the proof process you need to read more things than are part of the proof proper21:08
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bramcThere are potential problems with seek times. I'll need to work through everything with an eye towards figuring out if the whole thing winds up being disk bandwidth limited on the generation side, that could ruin everything21:11
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bramcHopefully the proof sizes aren't (log(n))^2, that would kind of suck21:16
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CodeSharkPoSp vs PoSt? ;)21:18
CodeSharkPSPACE is a complexity class21:18
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bramcCodeShark Yes I was making an attempt at this thing called 'humor' which people keep telling me about21:26
CodeSharkwhat's that?21:31
CodeSharkis humor similar to PSPACE?21:31
CodeSharkPoHAHAHA21:32
CodeSharklet's just call it George21:33
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CodeSharkdoes George require the storage be local to be efficient? if not wouldn't that imply it's bandwidth-limited?22:14
CodeSharkor if so, rather22:15
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