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| -!- Topic for #bitcoin-wizards: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja | 05:59 | |
| -!- Topic set by wumpus [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/wumpus] [Sat Jun 27 01:24:19 2015] | 05:59 | |
| [Users #bitcoin-wizards] | 05:59 | |
| [@ChanServ ] [ CodeShark ] [ Graet ] [ kyuupichan ] [ OneFixt ] [ stevenroose ] | 05:59 | |
| [ [ace] ] [ CodeShark_ ] [ grandmaster ] [ larraboj_ ] [ optimator ] [ stonecoldpat ] | 05:59 | |
| [ [d__d] ] [ CoinMuncher ] [ GreenIsMyPepper] [ lclc ] [ orperelman ] [ STRML ] | 05:59 | |
| [ _whitelogger_ ] [ comboy ] [ gregeh ] [ leakypat ] [ otoburb ] [ sturles ] | 05:59 | |
| [ a5m0 ] [ Cory ] [ gribble ] [ LeMiner ] [ p15x ] [ SubCreative ] | 05:59 | |
| [ AaronvanW ] [ coryfields_ ] [ grubles ] [ livegnik ] [ PaulCapestany ] [ sundance ] | 05:59 | |
| [ adam3us ] [ crescendo ] [ Guest27737 ] [ lnovy ] [ petertodd ] [ superobserver ] | 05:59 | |
| [ adams__ ] [ dansmith_ ] [ guruvan ] [ Logicwax ] [ phantomcircuit] [ SwedFTP ] | 05:59 | |
| [ Adlai ] [ dasource ] [ gwillen ] [ Luke-Jr ] [ pigeons ] [ Taek ] | 05:59 | |
| [ AdrianG ] [ davout ] [ harrigan ] [ luny ] [ platinuum ] [ TD-Linux ] | 05:59 | |
| [ afdudley ] [ dc17523be3 ] [ harrow ] [ Mably ] [ poggy ] [ Tenhi ] | 05:59 | |
| [ airbreather_1 ] [ dEBRUYNE ] [ hashtag ] [ Madars ] [ polyclef ] [ TheSeven ] | 05:59 | |
| [ ajweiss ] [ devrandom ] [ hashtag_ ] [ mappum ] [ PRab ] [ theymos ] | 05:59 | |
| [ akrmn ] [ dgenr8 ] [ hearn ] [ mariorz ] [ priidu ] [ ThomasV ] | 05:59 | |
| [ Alanius_ ] [ dignork ] [ heath ] [ MatrixBridge ] [ prosodyContext] [ thrasher` ] | 05:59 | |
| [ alawson ] [ Dr-G ] [ helo ] [ maximian ] [ qawap ] [ throughnothing] | 05:59 | |
| [ AlexStraunoff ] [ drwin ] [ HM ] [ Meeh ] [ Quanttek ] [ Tiraspol ] | 05:59 | |
| [ amiller ] [ EasyAt ] [ humd1ng3r ] [ melvster ] [ rasengan ] [ Transisto2 ] | 05:59 | |
| [ Anduck ] [ elastoma ] [ Hunger- ] [ mengine ] [ RH311ish ] [ tromp ] | 05:59 | |
| [ andytoshi ] [ Eliel ] [ huseby ] [ merlincorey ] [ richardus ] [ tromp_ ] | 05:59 | |
| [ Apocalyptic ] [ Emcy ] [ iddo ] [ metamarc ] [ roasbeef ] [ ttttemp ] | 05:59 | |
| [ artifexd ] [ epscy ] [ indolering ] [ michagogo ] [ roybadami ] [ tucenaber ] | 05:59 | |
| [ azariah ] [ erasmospunk ] [ Iriez ] [ midnightmagic] [ rubensayshi ] [ veox ] | 05:59 | |
| [ badmofo ] [ eric ] [ isis ] [ mikolalysenko] [ runeks ] [ vonzipper ] | 05:59 | |
| [ BananaLotus ] [ espes__ ] [ Jaamg ] [ mjerr ] [ rustyn ] [ warptangent ] | 05:59 | |
| [ bedeho ] [ eudoxia ] [ JackH ] [ mkarrer ] [ ryan-c ] [ warren ] | 05:59 | |
| [ berndj ] [ fenn ] [ jaromil ] [ mm_1 ] [ s1w ] [ waxwing ] | 05:59 | |
| [ bi_fa_fu ] [ Fistful_of_Coins] [ jbenet ] [ MoALTz ] [ sadoshi ] [ weex ] | 05:59 | |
| [ BigBitz ] [ fkhan ] [ jcorgan ] [ morcos ] [ samson_ ] [ wiz ] | 05:59 | |
| [ binaryatrocity] [ flower ] [ jessepollak ] [ mountaingoat ] [ scoria ] [ wizkid057 ] | 05:59 | |
| [ BlueMatt ] [ fluffypony ] [ jgarzik ] [ mr_burdell ] [ sdaftuar ] [ wumpus ] | 05:59 | |
| [ bosma_ ] [ forrestv ] [ jonasschnelli ] [ MRL-Relay ] [ SDCDev ] [ www ] | 05:59 | |
| [ BrainOverfl0w ] [ FranzKafka ] [ jouke ] [ MrTratta ] [ sl01 ] [ xabbix ] | 05:59 | |
| [ brand0 ] [ gavinandresen ] [ jrayhawk ] [ Muis ] [ smooth ] [ Xzibit17_ ] | 05:59 | |
| [ bsm117532 ] [ ggreer ] [ justanotheruser] [ nanotube ] [ sneak ] [ yoleaux ] | 05:59 | |
| [ btcdrak ] [ gielbier ] [ K1773R ] [ narwh4l ] [ so ] [ yorick ] | 05:59 | |
| [ c0rw1n ] [ gmaxwell ] [ kanzure ] [ nephyrin ] [ sparetire ] [ yrashk ] | 05:59 | |
| [ catcow ] [ gnusha ] [ kinlo ] [ NewLiberty ] [ spinza ] | 05:59 | |
| [ catlasshrugged] [ go1111111 ] [ koshii ] [ nickler_ ] [ Starduster ] | 05:59 | |
| [ cfields ] [ GoonClooney ] [ Krellan ] [ nsh ] [ Starsoccer ] | 05:59 | |
| [ CodeArtix ] [ goregrind ] [ kumavis ] [ null_radix ] [ StephenM347 ] | 05:59 | |
| -!- Irssi: #bitcoin-wizards: Total of 242 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 241 normal] | 05:59 | |
| -!- Channel #bitcoin-wizards created Mon Feb 25 23:24:47 2013 | 05:59 | |
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| bramc | CodeShark The local storage only requires a few lookups to use, it's *generating* the local storage I'm worried about. | 06:36 |
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| null_radix | ethere | 07:25 |
| null_radix | opps | 07:25 |
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| fluffypony | null_radix: it's ethere-ummm, not ethere-opps | 08:16 |
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| cryptonaut420 | hey, is anyone having issues with their bitcoind nodes right now? specifically when creating and broadcasting raw transactions? seems to be taking a REALLY long time (but also restarting bitcoind appears to help somewhat) | 09:15 |
| gmaxwell | cryptonaut420: set -minrelaytxfee=0.0001 and that will avoid the issue. | 09:19 |
| Apocalyptic | gmaxwell, is there a way to set minrelaytxfee at runtime without restarting the node ? | 09:19 |
| gmaxwell | Very likely at least (I can't be sure without a reproduction). | 09:20 |
| gmaxwell | Apocalyptic: no, but why would you mind restaring it? | 09:20 |
| Apocalyptic | I don't mind, was just wondering | 09:20 |
| cryptonaut420 | ok thanks, seen that advice somewhere else but havnt tried it yet. So others are experiencing the same thing? I ask because I am also running the addrindex patch, so wondering if it has something to do with the patch or if its a general issue | 09:20 |
| gmaxwell | cryptonaut420: oh well addrindex is likely much much more expensive, as IIRC it does search the mempool too. | 09:22 |
| gmaxwell | also the spam attack is constantly reusing addresses, which I think has much worse performance for addrindex | 09:22 |
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| gmaxwell | cryptonaut420: and no, I can't reproduce your behavior, so maybe it's specific to that; though my advice still holds. | 09:23 |
| cryptonaut420 | yeah, il try it out and see if it makes a difference | 09:23 |
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| morcos | gmaxwell: restarting a node is not good for fee estimation. it probably doesn't hurt the existing estimation code TOO much, but the obvious next improvment is to see how far back in the current priority queue you are for a given fee, which is information you'd lose if you clear out your mempool | 09:24 |
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| cryptonaut420 | nooby question: if I set mintxrelayfee higher than normal, will my node still broadcast transactions that come from itself even if they use below standard fees? | 09:27 |
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| morcos | crytonaut420: no you wont' even be able to create those transactions unless they have high enough priority, in which case you can create and relay them (but this is probably for #bitcoin) | 09:28 |
| cryptonaut420 | even using createrawtransaction? | 09:29 |
| morcos | on #bitcoin | 09:30 |
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| zooko | Hm, Bill Cox in http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.security.phc/3104/focus=3129 says that if verification costs for a PoW are high then this can be used for malicious DoS by sending many bogus (non-verifying) solutions. | 10:29 |
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| gmaxwell | zooko: This is news to you? :) | 10:34 |
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| zooko | Well, it is obvious to me in retrospect, but I omitted it from my list of considerations in http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.security.phc/3126 and http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.security.phc/3127 and http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.security.phc/3128 | 10:46 |
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| zooko | Unfortunately, the Merkle-Tree+Fiat-Shamir-NIZK proposed by the Argon2 authors gives, as Bill Cox has also pointed out, a substantial advantage to an ASIC implementation. | 10:51 |
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| nsh | with just seven more hyphens we'll ensure commodity home hardware supremacy! | 10:53 |
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| zooko | ☺ | 10:53 |
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| amiller | zooko, "substantial advantage"? | 11:16 |
| amiller | i don't agree with that, i don't know concretely what the ratio of hashes to memory accesses are, but if all you need is to 'keep up' with the rate of memory accesses then that could be pretty cheap | 11:16 |
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| zooko | amiller: I think the Merkle Tree construction means a depth of maybe 64 or so hashes, fully piplined. | 11:21 |
| zooko | I assume. | 11:21 |
| amiller | i bet you dont even need to compute those until you've found a solution anyway | 11:23 |
| amiller | i dont think that will have any impact whatsoever on asic | 11:23 |
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| zooko | Hm. | 11:28 |
| zooko | Yeah, you don't need to compute those until you've found a solution. I think. Good point! | 11:28 |
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| zooko | That's a relief. | 11:30 |
| zooko | Because I want to use Argon2d for the well-studied memory-hardness, but I also want cheap verification. | 11:31 |
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| amiller | ok so i want to talk about cuckoo more though | 11:34 |
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| zooko | *nod* | 11:34 |
| amiller | this bill cox guy's posts irritate me because they're super hand wavy.. i think he's plainly wrong now about the asic advantage of argon2d | 11:34 |
| zooko | Hm. | 11:35 |
| amiller | and i'm uncertain about his cuckoo point | 11:35 |
| zooko | 'twould be great if your objection were posted to a mailing list where he, Solar Designer, et al. would see it. | 11:35 |
| amiller | but i'm irrirtated that in his subseuqent post, he's like "IIRC, cuckoo is totally broken"... what does he mean 'recall correctly', he means according to his own post from a few days ago when he declared it was broken | 11:35 |
| amiller | anyway | 11:35 |
| amiller | (yes if i decide i don't feel like an asshole after spewing it out here, i may consolidate it and post to phc :) | 11:36 |
| amiller | so, those irritants aside, i don't understand the cuckoo objection yet | 11:36 |
| amiller | i don't understand this 'hypercube' model of memory | 11:36 |
| zooko | I didn't really think it through. | 11:36 |
| zooko | Because | 11:36 |
| zooko | I don't think cuckoo has been well-studied, and I think it is very different from other algorithms. | 11:37 |
| zooko | Argon2 is basically the same thing as all the other hash functions, scrypt, etc. etc., except newer and tuned/tweaked/etc. and well-studied. | 11:37 |
| zooko | So that's my main motivation. | 11:37 |
| zooko | (Sorry, tromp. I like you.) | 11:37 |
| amiller | right, so, i'm trying to change cuckoo's status from not-studied to studied | 11:37 |
| zooko | There's a cultural thing here that might partially explain the way your and my intuitions differ. | 11:37 |
| zooko | Between the "mathy" cryptographers and the "bit-blender" cryptographers. | 11:38 |
| zooko | The latter call themselves "symmetric" cryptographers, I guess. | 11:38 |
| zooko | I'm in the latter camp. | 11:38 |
| amiller | the structure vs structureless thing | 11:38 |
| zooko | A lot of people that I like and admire are in the mathy camp. | 11:38 |
| amiller | http://www.boazbarak.org/Papers/meta-alg.pdf | 11:38 |
| zooko | If you give me two brand new crypto algorithms from Mars that I know nothing about | 11:38 |
| zooko | Yeah, that one. | 11:38 |
| zooko | It was nice for me to find a venerated mathy/theory guy giving credence to my cultural prejudice. | 11:38 |
| zooko | Anyway, if you give me two completely novel and incomparable algorithms, and I know nothing except that | 11:39 |
| amiller | kind of how like analysts and algebraists eat corn differently | 11:39 |
| zooko | the first one has a security reduction to some random math problem that Gauss used to masturbate to, | 11:39 |
| zooko | and the second one has been unsuccessfully attacked by the bit-blender-cryptographers of Mars for the last 5 years, | 11:39 |
| zooko | I'm going with the second one every time. | 11:39 |
| amiller | http://bentilly.blogspot.com/2010/08/analysis-vs-algebra-predicts-eating.html | 11:39 |
| zooko | I don't trust math. :-) | 11:39 |
| * zooko looks at http://bentilly.blogspot.com/2010/08/analysis-vs-algebra-predicts-eating.html | 11:40 | |
| zooko | Running low on battery power... :-/ | 11:40 |
| zooko | FWIW I definitely approve of cuckoo getting better-studied. | 11:41 |
| gmaxwell | amiller: yea, bill's handwaving wore me out a long time ago. In general PHC is really bad with the handwaving. | 11:41 |
| zooko | BTW I kind of regret including that crude joke in there. DISREGARD THAT PART. | 11:41 |
| amiller | gmaxwell, so, what is this hypercube kind of thing | 11:41 |
| gmaxwell | There are a few there that are pretty crisp, but the SNR ratio is not good. | 11:41 |
| * nsh didn't follow the argument | 11:41 | |
| amiller | my understanding of 'memory hard' is that it is supposed to require having a lot of memory, but it doesn't matter if its throughput is utilized | 11:42 |
| amiller | so the bill cox objection is that you can use a parallel algorithm | 11:42 |
| zooko | Well, unfortunately I'm running out of battery, and I need to go spend an hour or two with my dead-trees-and-bricks-and-mortar bank asking them to do the simplest fucking things, like "Don't *both* cancel my card for having been stolen *and* ask me to pay the fraudulent charges". | 11:42 |
| zooko | Dammit. | 11:42 |
| gmaxwell | amiller: what POW wants and what password hashing wants are not one and the same. | 11:42 |
| gmaxwell | E.g. a POW that takes a full second to verify would be a useless anti-ddos cookie, but a ducky kdf for disk encryption. | 11:43 |
| amiller | yes that doesn't seem relevant to this particular attack though | 11:44 |
| gmaxwell | no indeed, just an example though. | 11:45 |
| amiller | ok, i agree with that meta concern, it unfortunately seems to limit how much we can gain from interaction with PHC | 11:45 |
| gmaxwell | Yes, I agree that cuckoo is not well studied; but its actually targeting the right objective (well, assuming you agree that 'memory hard' is useful. :) ) | 11:46 |
| * zooko lols at predicting corn-eating style http://bentilly.blogspot.com/2010/08/analysis-vs-algebra-predicts-eating.html | 11:46 | |
| amiller | ok so, what is the crux of this specific attack on cuckoo's memory hardness | 11:46 |
| zooko | gmaxwell: as far as I can tell Argon2 also meets my objectives. | 11:46 |
| zooko | gmaxwell: and also the authors of it explicitly attempt to address those objectives. | 11:46 |
| amiller | it is about an efficient parallel algorithms for finding the cycles | 11:46 |
| gmaxwell | zooko: argon2's authors are pretty good. | 11:47 |
| amiller | a parallel algorithm that assumes all the data is in memory doesn't seem to inviolate memory-hardness | 11:47 |
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| amiller | it just makes better use of perhaps the parallel memory throughput i guess | 11:47 |
| gmaxwell | zooko: but their cheap verification thing has not really been peer reviewed afaik. | 11:47 |
| amiller | but this 'hypercube' seems to be suggesting something other than a typical memory, where there are smaller memory cells and some kind of routing network between them | 11:48 |
| tromp_ | my response to bill on phs list doesn't seem to be getting through | 11:49 |
| gmaxwell | (maybe you've reviewed it, I haven't-- it wasn't part of their original proposal and I didn't get as far as it in their new stuff) | 11:49 |
| zooko | gmaxwell: true. | 11:49 |
| tromp_ | maybe awaiting moderation | 11:49 |
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| amiller | tromp_, give us a pastebin link for now? | 11:49 |
| zooko | tromp_: I haven't seen any response from you. I don't think that mailing list is moderated. | 11:49 |
| tromp_ | let's see if it's in my gmail sent folder | 11:49 |
| tromp_ | I *so* hate trying to cut from gmail messages; once it starts scrolling it immediately zooms way past what yo uwant | 11:51 |
| nsh | software is the price we pay for information | 11:51 |
| zooko | nsh: lol | 11:52 |
| tromp_ | http://pastebin.com/yxFwnee0 | 11:52 |
| amiller | tromp_, thanks!! | 11:52 |
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| tromp_ | Bill seems to think that outlining the parallel implementation of the basic algorithm already detailed in the Cuckoo whitepaper constitutes breaking it | 11:56 |
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| tromp_ | Bill responded to my message (which I also sent directly to him), so you might see his reply before my original | 12:01 |
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| zooko | I sometimes avoid Cc:'ing people directly, when replying to lists, in order to avoid that. | 12:03 |
| tromp_ | i did that since i have no faith my message will ever make it on that list | 12:04 |
| tromp_ | if i did, i would follow that convention:) | 12:05 |
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| zooko | :-) | 12:06 |
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| amiller | tromp_, your response *did* make it to the list http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2015-July/025993.html | 12:08 |
| tromp_ | thx; i'll refrain from directly replying to bill in future... | 12:08 |
| amiller | ok bill cox's follow up messages have a lot more detail, it seems that a) he wants to obliterate Momentum first, which is like cuckoo with a degenerate setting... cuckoo paper already points out an attack on this degenerate setting, but bill cox says there is an even worse attack, and it would be good to undersatnd this first and then apply it to nondegenerate settings | 12:11 |
| tromp_ | Every time I reply I get "Your message to cryptography awaits moderator approval" | 12:11 |
| tromp_ | but Bill is attacking a memory-wasteful implementation of Momentum | 12:12 |
| amiller | b) the crux of the attack is about a different between 'sequential memory hard' which says you shouldn't be able to parallelize it, and | 12:12 |
| tromp_ | the edge-trimming cuckoo implementation is the most memory efficient one | 12:13 |
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| zooko | tromp_: Perry Metzger and/or Tamzen Connoy manually moderate every post to that list. | 12:14 |
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| amiller | so unpacking the difference between memory*time (sequentialy memory hard) and memory*work (parallel memory hard) | 12:19 |
| amiller | i guess it's plausible that there are custom parallel memories with particular communication patterns that might outperform commodity dram | 12:19 |
| tromp_ | no doubt, but at what cost? | 12:19 |
| tromp_ | when you build your sorting hypercube, perhaps to reduce memory latencies for 100s of threads, i expect that will be lots more expensive than just buying a few more dram chips each accessed with a moderate #threads | 12:21 |
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| amiller | im not clear yet one whether hypercube is something you can even build on an asic | 12:32 |
| amiller | or if it's inherently about this thru-silicon-via 3d stack stuff | 12:33 |
| tromp_ | a 3D implementation will also need longer connections | 12:33 |
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| gmaxwell | zooko: obviously we need an anti-censorship mail extension where every message commits to the set of messages on the list you've already seen, so people won't accept your message unless they've seen the history too. :) | 12:39 |
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| zooko | Darn. I just figured out that the memory access patterns in Argon2 are utterly predictable, so it is actually bandwidth-oriented instead of latency-oriented. | 12:57 |
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| bramc | A parallel implementation of cuckoo which used the same amount of memory would be a good thing. It would have similar hardness but reduce latency. | 12:59 |
| amiller | zooko, uh, Argon2d is data dependent (unpredictable, good for cryptocurrency), Argon2i is data independent (good for phc so it doesn't leak data about the password) | 13:00 |
| bramc | Has my construction for making password hashing algorithms memory access unpredictable come up on phc? | 13:00 |
| amiller | bramc, well it depends on whether it uses a commodity memory or a customized, in-silicon, hypercube laid-out memory | 13:00 |
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| zooko | amiller: I think the memory access patterns are the same even in the data-dependent version, trhough. | 13:00 |
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| bramc | I came up with it, then realized how profoundly different PoW and password hashing are, then stopped working on it more | 13:01 |
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| bramc | amiller, The question of whether cuckoo's memory can be beaten by asics is an interesting one, but not the same as whether it's busted in terms of being linear in memory | 13:02 |
| amiller | zooko, i don't understand, data dependent memory access == unpredictable memory access pattern or are there two differen things | 13:02 |
| amiller | bramc, the point is that the gold standard for "sequential memory hard" is memory*time, whereas the weaker 'parallel memory hard' is about memory*work, which might be beaten by asic | 13:02 |
| bramc | amiller, Fair enough, but as per usual it comes down to cost of the chips and energy efficiency of the work. Just because the ASIC has lower latency doesn't mean that it wins. | 13:04 |
| zooko | amiller: I'll get back to you after I read and think more. | 13:04 |
| zooko | amiller: for one thing, I think I've been reading the *Argon*, not *Argon2* spec this whole time. Whoops. | 13:04 |
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| bramc | I'd classify cuckoo as mostly a bit-blending approach with a little bit of simple math thrown in | 13:10 |
| zooko | Hm. | 13:11 |
| bramc | Doing web searching it seems like my password hashing mode hasn't even been discussed on phc :-( | 13:13 |
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| zooko | amiller: okay, having looked at the right algorithm, I agree with you that the memory accesses (for read) are unpredictable. | 13:33 |
| zooko | Interesting that the writes are sequential but the reads are unpredictable. | 13:33 |
| zooko | I would have made the write pattern unpredictable as well. | 13:33 |
| zooko | But, I think this is good enough. | 13:33 |
| zooko | So I think that Argon2d is latency-bound more than bandwidth bound. | 13:34 |
| bramc | My construction has both unpredictable reads and writes, and is extremely general about how you fill in the core primitive | 13:34 |
| zooko | bramc: interesting! Maybe you should write it up. :-) | 13:34 |
| bramc | zooko, *sigh* http://bramcohen.com/2014/11/18/a-mode-for-password-hashing | 13:34 |
| nsh | write it up nonsequentially | 13:35 |
| zooko | ;-) | 13:35 |
| amiller | yeah write it up again a few more times | 13:36 |
| nsh | extraneous word here maybe [thing?] "There’s a reversible operation based on the thing data being hashed which munges the internal state and the part of bulk memory referred to, resulting in the pointer referring to a new pseudorandomly selected block of memory." | 13:36 |
| bramc | What it does, in a nutshell, is take a hashing algorithm - it can be any hashing algorithm, like is used to make a feistel network, and makes a password hashing algorithm out of it which has unpredictable reads and writes and has the very nice mathematical property of being time reversible, which obliterates whole categories of potential attacks on the thing | 13:37 |
| bramc | nsh, oh yeah, copy editing problem | 13:37 |
| nsh | how does reversibility mitigate attacks? | 13:37 |
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| nsh | are you turning the whole sparse memory state into a pseudo-random permutation? | 13:38 |
| zooko | bramc: nice and simple. Too bad it wasn't a PHC candidate. | 13:38 |
| bramc | nsh, Roughly yes. The idea is to make it so that there aren't any weak passwords which lose info in weird ways | 13:39 |
| * nsh nods | 13:39 | |
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| bramc | zooko, I don't have the requisite expertise to fully flesh it out into a whole thing. I was hoping somebody who did would use it as a basis for a fleshed out thing instead of the mashed-together bullshit they usually use | 13:39 |
| bramc | nsh, The general intuition is that most password hashing modes because they're mashing stuff together in a fairly incongruous way have to make steps paralellizable so they don't accidentally lose information. If everything is guaranteed to be reversible you can obliterate the parallelizability | 13:41 |
| * nsh nods | 13:42 | |
| zooko | Huh, where's the sublinear-verification hack? Not in https://password-hashing.net/submissions/specs/Argon-v2.pdf | 13:43 |
| * zooko looks at https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/430 | 13:43 | |
| amiller | yeah that one | 13:44 |
| zooko | There we go. | 13:44 |
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| bramc | It's sort of like feistel that way. You can worry about your core primitive having good diffusion and not having simple mathematical properties without having to worry in the slightest about whether it's a permutation | 13:45 |
| bramc | In that post I suggest using AES as the function for mashing it up, which I later realized is ridiculous: It's much more akin to a single round of AES | 13:45 |
| bramc | It should probably be called a 'mode', similar to sponge | 13:47 |
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| zooko | amiller: you don't mind if I attribute things to you, like "Andrew Miller pointed out to me that the mining algorithm could allow the winning ticket to be determined (by the miner) *before* computing the Merkle Tree, thus avoiding adding a significant performance advantage for ASIC miners by the addition of the Merkle Tree". | 14:02 |
| zooko | ? | 14:02 |
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| zooko | One risk of me attributing things to you is that I'll get them wrong and then everyone will think you're dumb. | 14:02 |
| amiller | i accept this risk | 14:02 |
| amiller | if any of those turn out to be bad ideas ill just use twitter to blame someone else | 14:03 |
| zooko | Ok. | 14:03 |
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| zooko | Hm. | 14:09 |
| zooko | Actually this one might be one of those things where I'm about to make you sound dumb. | 14:09 |
| zooko | Because | 14:09 |
| zooko | how can a miner know that he's gotten a winning ticket -- which can be verified as a winning ticket by a verifier -- without first computing the Merkle Tree? | 14:10 |
| * zooko thinks | 14:10 | |
| zooko | One way would be if the criteria for winning was a property of all/most of the *leaves* of the Merkle Tree. | 14:11 |
| zooko | e.g., this wins if all of the leaves (that got picked by the Fiat-Shamir beacon) start with 50 zero bits. | 14:11 |
| zooko | Hm. | 14:11 |
| zooko | Again, to avoid giving an advantage to the miner who is much better at hashing, we should ideally also get our Fiat-Shamir beacon from stuff that the bad-at-hashing | 14:12 |
| zooko | miner already has, instead of, as in https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/430, from the root of the Verification Merkle Tree. | 14:12 |
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| zooko | amiller amiller amiller | 14:14 |
| zooko | bbiab | 14:15 |
| amiller | hm | 14:15 |
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| nsh | hmm | 14:18 |
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| zooko | Yeah, so we can derive the Fiat-Shamir beacon from the leaves directly, or something that doesn't require computing the Merkle Tree. | 14:23 |
| zooko | The only remaining niggling bit is that a naive miner would just keep going until *all* the leaves had 50 zero-bits, | 14:23 |
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| zooko | but a smarter miner checks the Fiat-Shamir beacon to see if it overlooks those of his leaves that don't have 50 zero-bits. | 14:24 |
| zooko | Seems ok. | 14:24 |
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| zooko | I guess computing the Fiat-Shamir beacon is not a big computationally-intensive thing. | 14:24 |
| zooko | I suppose it is secure-hash-of-the-leaves. | 14:24 |
| zooko | Um. | 14:24 |
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| zooko | Secure-hash-of-the-leaves is only 1/2 as intensive as Merkle-Tree-over-all-the-leaves. | 14:25 |
| * zooko is uncertain about this part. | 14:25 | |
| zooko | Oh, the ... the beacon can be a ... | 14:26 |
| * zooko 's brain is melting | 14:26 | |
| zooko | Okay, I'll just say it. | 14:27 |
| zooko | The Fiat-Shamir-beacon can be a property local to each leaf, like "This leaf is in the required set if its hash is less than X". | 14:27 |
| zooko | The reason this melts my brain is because ... Because ... | 14:27 |
| zooko | Okay | 14:27 |
| zooko | So yeah, our variant of the Fiat-Shamir transform here is simply "at least 1/2 of your leaves have to start with at least 50 zero bits each". | 14:27 |
| zooko | YAy! Done. | 14:27 |
| kanzure | it seems that you do not use the "think of all possible worlds where you have solved the problem, then pick the optimal world and work backwards" method of thinking | 14:28 |
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| zooko | Okay now I've really got to go persuade my bank that it doesn't make sense to both cancel my card for fraud and also ask me to pay the fraudulent charge or do the work of disputing it. | 14:28 |
| zooko | And while they are at it, please be disrupted out of existence and go get new jobs. | 14:28 |
| nsh | there's probably a sequence of DTMF tones that cancels the bank instead | 14:30 |
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| nsh | .t https://www.wired.com/2015/07/brainflayer-password-cracker-steals-bitcoins-brain/ | 16:16 |
| yoleaux | nsh: Sorry, I don't know a timezone by that name. | 16:16 |
| nsh | .title | 16:16 |
| yoleaux | Brainflayer: A Password Cracker That Steals Bitcoins From Your Brain | WIRED | 16:17 |
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| nsh | (optimised brianwallet cracker that scans blockchain for weak keys. claims to use bloom filter but not clear to me how exactly) | 16:17 |
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| nsh | how many public keys are in UTXO set? | 16:18 |
| phantomcircuit | nsh, brainflayer -> braincancer | 16:19 |
| phantomcircuit | a missed opportunity | 16:19 |
| phantomcircuit | nsh, millions iirc | 16:19 |
| nsh | so could you make a filter for all of them and then run brainwallet hashes past it? not sure what the practical limits are for entries | 16:20 |
| chmod755 | phantomcircuit, developed in brainfuck? | 16:21 |
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| phantomcircuit | nsh, you could easily do it | 16:22 |
| nsh | yeah i guess it would be only ~100 megabytes for 10 million keys | 16:23 |
| phantomcircuit | nsh, well and you can do stuff like truncate the hashes and do partial matches | 16:23 |
| phantomcircuit | or even do a bloomfilter | 16:23 |
| phantomcircuit | which iirc some of the cracking software implements for gpu/fpga stuff where memory is highly constrained | 16:23 |
| nsh | right, that's what they've done | 16:23 |
| nsh | i guess making the cost of poor randomness devastatingly clear is good education, if unfortunate for individuals | 16:24 |
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| moa | don't worry next up we have mindwallet | 16:32 |
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| moa | BIP156 Integrated thought patterns for generating deterministic keys | 16:32 |
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| moa | careful you don't lose your mind though | 16:33 |
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| CodeShark | EEG? fMRI? implanted electrodes? | 16:37 |
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| moa | yeah ... think of an memorable image and shazam | 16:37 |
| moa | like your ex-wife taking off with the house | 16:38 |
| CodeShark | lol | 16:38 |
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| bramc | moa You didn't build the house big enough https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KC_rd7-bf0 | 16:41 |
| CodeShark | then the second time around you can use the image of your ex-wife taking off with your mindwallet | 16:43 |
| moa | starting to sound an inception sequel plot | 16:44 |
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| bramc | There was a book where a footnote said 'I am grateful to Mr. So-and-So for translating this book' followed by a footnote which said 'I am grateful to Mr. So-and-So for translating the preceding footnote'. And a third footnote saying 'I am grateful to Mr. So-and-So for translating the preceding footnote'. There was no fourth footnote, because the third one was copied from the second and didn't require an additional transl | 16:52 |
| bramc | ation. | 16:52 |
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| gmaxwell | fixed point attribution | 16:53 |
| CodeShark | gmaxwell: did you fix your mouse? | 16:56 |
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| gmaxwell | hah. well actually I have a mouse problem too, but the DOS attack went away when I made my node unreachable via ipv4 again. | 16:59 |
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| moa | would the library at the end of the universe, with all the books in it, have a book with all the books in the library listed in it and would that book have itself listed within it? | 17:00 |
| bblue | nsh: I talked with the Brainflayer guy (Ryan) at the last SF Bitcoin Drinkup. Basically he's just running a password brute-forcing tool on the blockchain by looking for matching addresses that have balances. Seems like a basic thing to do. The surprising bit is how many coins are exposed using his tool. People suck at passwords. | 17:01 |
| * nsh nods | 17:02 | |
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| nsh | bramc, excellent anecdote :) | 17:02 |
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| CodeShark | another variant on that theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvIKL_pTZFE&t=110 | 17:07 |
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| nsh | hmm | 17:13 |
| nsh | could make all this PHC nonsense redundant with a simple sidechains PoC that allows anyone to limit access attempts for any account on any site to any multiple of a 30s blocktime | 17:14 |
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| nsh | or relatively not simple, but possible anyway | 17:16 |
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| amiller | nsh.... so... every time i want to use a password to log into a website, you're suggesting i should use my private key to sign a transaction and publish it to reserve a slot for my password hash request? | 17:59 |
| amiller | nsh that rather defeats the point of passwords, which is that people are too lazy to use private keys | 18:00 |
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| gmaxwell | A while back I came up with a scheme which allowed for censoring resistant information theoretically secure password hardening / rate-limiting against a federated 'clock'. | 18:01 |
| nsh | amiller, true | 18:02 |
| nsh | what was it, gmaxwell? | 18:02 |
| nsh | amiller, i meant rather that sites would gate access on the basis of hashes that can only be generated with some nonce that depends on a mine block of attempt requests | 18:03 |
| nsh | so users would still be able to employ passwords, but sites would check them against some window of block-salted hashes | 18:04 |
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| nsh | *mined | 18:05 |
| gmaxwell | nsh: M parties first do an interactive protocol to gain shares of a secret signing key for a N of M BLS signature. So then you have a pubkey P for the 'clock federation'. | 18:06 |
| * nsh nods | 18:06 | |
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| gmaxwell | nsh: a user wants to authenticate, he KDF's his password as usual, but then take it as a message to sign, and computes a random blinding factor. The result is a uniform value (no information leakage) | 18:07 |
| gmaxwell | He then sends this message to be signed to N of the M clocks, and pays them some fee, solves some captcha, or waits for their ratelimit (whatever the heck they're doing to limit their use) and they sing M, he reinterpolates their signatures to get the signature with P, then he unblinds it | 18:08 |
| gmaxwell | and now he has a determinstic signature of his KDFed secret. and then just uses that as his secret. | 18:08 |
| nsh | ah, neat | 18:09 |
| gmaxwell | if Bitcoin could verify BLS signatures you could even directly use transactions to pay the participants to sign. | 18:09 |
| * nsh nods | 18:09 | |
| gmaxwell | and they could have a timelocked bond to encourage them to not lose their keys. | 18:10 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: is there a wishlist somewhere for an OP_CHECKSIG2? Seems like lightning might need new sighash ops after all, might as well start thinking about it. | 18:12 |
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| nsh | dan boneh's paper on identity-based weil pairing is cited 6,117 times. it probably took a thousand years for euclid's elements to be cited that many times | 18:15 |
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| gmaxwell | lol | 18:18 |
| gmaxwell | rusty: not collected nicely, people have been making an effort to not shortcut reasearch by running ahead with a premature proposal. | 18:20 |
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| rusty | gmaxwell: Hmm, well at some point it has to come to a boil, otherwise we just logjam forever. | 18:23 |
| gmaxwell | roasbeef: Hey, were is your fast multi-scalar multiply? | 18:24 |
| moa | could minrelaytxfee be a dynamic variable that follows minimum fee that is getting into blocks (or some lesser percentage thereof)? | 18:25 |
| gmaxwell | rusty: sure; but "rusty is interested in this" is not really a great decision critreia for that. | 18:25 |
| bramc | Is the main stumbling block for op_checksig2 how expressive the language for specifying what the other signatures have to sign should be? | 18:25 |
| gmaxwell | :) | 18:25 |
| moa | why should nodes be forwarding TX that probably wont make it into blocks? | 18:25 |
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| moa | in the mempool lifetime | 18:26 |
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| gmaxwell | rusty: research in this area has so far yielded a ~2x verification speedup (the batching support for the schnorr signatures in elements), and accountable multisig which is potentially a zillion fold more efficient. The remaining known-ununkown is the right level of sighash flag generality. | 18:28 |
| nsh | moa, how many blocks do you average over? | 18:29 |
| moa | mempool lifetime | 18:29 |
| moa | say 95% probability it wont make it into a block ... or pick a high percentage like that | 18:30 |
| bramc | What is 'accountable multisig'? | 18:30 |
| nsh | that's a much more complex calculation than the global hashpower, which is the only thing miners are entrusted to estimate for the entire network | 18:32 |
| nsh | i think there are many more ways it could go wrong than the advantages could justify | 18:32 |
| moa | core already does it already for fee calc | 18:32 |
| nsh | it doesn't invalidate inputs. having a dynamic relay bar would | 18:33 |
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| rusty | gmaxwell: Lightning wants to create a TX B 2of2 input which spends the single output of an inputs-as-yet-unsigned TX A. Simply creating a CHECKSIG2 which has a sighash flag which omits the input txid would be the minimal solution AFAICT. | 18:42 |
| rusty | Or, complete elimination of malleability (including signature malleability) would allow a slightly-less efficient scheme to work. | 18:42 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: IIUC elements alpha uses a deterministic signature scheme; would this be a softfork for bitcoin? Would it fix sig malleability, such that with BIP62 all known malleability would be eliminated? | 18:43 |
| gmaxwell | rusty: No, no signature scheme for plain discrete-log crypto can be determinstic against the signer. | 18:44 |
| gmaxwell | the signautre scheme in elements alpha is derandomized, same as ecdsa in libsecp256k1 is derandomized, but the signer can still make multiple signatures of the same data that differ. | 18:45 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: right. So any scheme where you want to get a presigned dependent tx on something not already deep in blockchain is going to require a new sighash style of some description. | 18:47 |
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| gmaxwell | rusty: the multilevel dependancy avoidance cannot be done with just sighash styles except by excluding the input txid entirely, which would work for that, but it opens up replay attacks and other nastyness... so it's not a generalized solution (though it may well be fine for lightning) | 18:48 |
| * gmaxwell goes to dinner | 18:49 | |
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| rusty | gmaxwell: not quite... it could include an alternate (normalized/minimized) input txid instead. I think... | 18:49 |
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| roasbeef | gmaxwell: Heya, I went back and re-visited it yesterday (hadn't since I turned it in for the class project) by writing some additional tests and discovered a bug :/ | 20:27 |
| roasbeef | gmaxwell: an error is being introduced somewhere in the heap iterations, so it's not 100% there yet, gonna require some additional head-banging | 20:28 |
| zooko | BTW, if anybody read that fast-verification-for-proof-of-work stuff I posted into this channel earlier, it was probably all garbage and you should forget about it. :-( | 20:28 |
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| zooko | Howdy bendavenport! | 20:41 |
| bendavenport | hey zooko | 20:41 |
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| zooko | rusty: I'd like to understand what protocol features would support Lightning best. | 20:43 |
| zooko | I suppose the next step on that would be to *really* understand your blog series explaining Lightning... | 20:44 |
| Luke-Jr | bendavenport: welcome! | 20:44 |
| bendavenport | thanks Luke-Jr | 20:45 |
| rusty | zooko: so would I :) I tried to design a variant which didn't require this feature, and Joseph Poon blew a hole in it last night. Hopefully we can repair it with something else, but if not it's back to the requirements in the original paper... | 20:45 |
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| zooko | rusty: so the thing is, we're launching a new coin, and I'd like to know if there are things that are low engineering costs but help a lot with the next layer up. | 20:50 |
| zooko | Non-malleability seems like a big one, although I don't understand what the best implementation of non-malleability is... | 20:50 |
| rusty | zooko: well, Elements Alpha's segregated witness solves this. Not possible for bitcoin without a hardfork, but in your case you don't care. | 20:51 |
| rusty | zooko: the best way to figure out the exact difference between bitcoin and elements alpha is probably to look in the lightning code: | 20:52 |
| rusty | https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning/blob/master/bitcoin/tx.c | 20:53 |
| zooko | rusty: I actually *do* care about that, because we can "test" things out which bitcoin can then adopt. | 20:55 |
| zooko | rusty: but yeah, I'm totally willing to do something like segregated witness for this. | 20:55 |
| Luke-Jr | reminder: this isn't ##altcoin-dev | 20:56 |
| zooko | Luke-Jr: I'm not sure I know how to use that... | 20:57 |
| Luke-Jr | ? | 20:57 |
| zooko | I mean, I can't tell the difference between an altcoin and a hard-fork-requiring future version of Bitcoin. | 20:57 |
| zooko | Nor the difference between an altcoin and a sidechain. | 20:57 |
| Luke-Jr | technical discussions go here; altcoin feature choices/parameters/etc stuff goes there? :p | 21:00 |
| zooko | I'm sorry, I don't see the difference. | 21:01 |
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| dpfs | blocksKicked | 21:10 |
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