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| gmaxwell | http://www.adelard.com/papers/i97_revh.pdf just goes to show that there is nothing interesting in computing that someone working on nuclear reactors hasn't thought of first. | 00:27 |
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| jcorgan | heh, i was a nuclear reactor engineer once, before cherynobyl dropped the bottom out of the industry and i returned to CS. fewer laws of physics to obey :-) | 00:35 |
| venzen | jcorgan: and less fallout in case of the inevitable human error :) | 00:41 |
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| venzen | gmaxwell: any idea what year Bishop wrote that? can't find a date in the text... the refs are all pre-1995. He'd be delighted with moxiebox | 00:43 |
| venzen | well, moxie put to his design, right? | 00:43 |
| gmaxwell | venzen: looks like 97. | 00:45 |
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| waxwing | who puts their postal address in the title of their paper? :) | 03:42 |
| waxwing | good old days i guess | 03:42 |
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| zooko | #p | 09:42 |
| zooko | oops | 09:42 |
| zooko | #p | 09:42 |
| zooko | double oops | 09:42 |
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| jcorgan | still looking for an SPV wallet that does standard BIP32 HD key derivation, uses BIP39 mnemonic seeds, and allows import of xpubs. i would have thought the intersection of these four criteria would be large but apparently it is the null space. | 10:36 |
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| afk11 | mycelium might, but you'd be stretched to find wallets supporting that unfortunately :/ | 10:38 |
| afk11 | could write your own? | 10:39 |
| jcorgan | i have some python command-line tools i've written that cover the BIP32 address generation and xpub import, but not the SPV or watching wallet/bloom filter/address scanning part | 10:41 |
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| jcorgan | or BIP39 | 10:41 |
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| afk11 | I haven't seen a py implementation of bloom filtering :/ bitcore doesn't have it yet either | 10:44 |
| jcorgan | i want a wallet implementing those 4 requirements i can point over Tor to a trusted bitcoind hidden service | 10:45 |
| afk11 | android wallet wouldn't take much hacking just to drop the wallet part, and tell you about tx's on the xpub. if transparent proxying (orbot) works with it, use the trusted peer setting | 10:47 |
| afk11 | otherwise, look at stratum. it doesn't have bloom filtering though | 10:47 |
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| Guest8453 | does the number of unconfirmed transactions seem a bit high right now? https://blockchain.info/unconfirmed-transactions | 13:22 |
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| * gmaxwell eyes Guest8453 with tremendous suspicion | 13:25 | |
| gmaxwell | Guest8453: how did you find this channel? | 13:25 |
| Guest8453 | Sorry, I will leave | 13:25 |
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| Tiraspol | way to go gmaxwell | 13:25 |
| Tiraspol | you scared off another one | 13:25 |
| gmaxwell | Another troll? bully for me. | 13:26 |
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| dgenr8 | LN invites address reuse on a massive scale. Receipt address can no longer be used to identify an incoming payment. Will have to be part of HTLC, and a new protocol will be needed for your hub to share this data with you. | 14:49 |
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| nsh | dgenr8, not sure i follow | 15:07 |
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| dgenr8 | as I understand it, everybody sends to the 2of2 multisig of your payment channel | 15:12 |
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| phantomcircuit | dgenr8, the hash preimage is also a payment id | 15:14 |
| dgenr8 | your daily net settlement naturally contains no information about who actually paid you. so you need to get all this information another way. nothing too surprising I guess since you need totally new software to manage HTLC's anyway | 15:14 |
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| dgenr8 | i observe that the internet did not scale via ISP's aggregating incoming packets into a daily digest | 15:16 |
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| dgenr8 | ... maybe it could have, if special protocol for working with your ISP to access the details of the probable digest in real time (and for handling all kinds of timeouts and error correction scenarios) | 15:27 |
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| dgenr8 | ... and maybe it would have, if there were some reason that core routers could only handle 1KB in real packets, and the meta-protocol was all carrier pigeons | 15:27 |
| phantomcircuit | dgenr8, bitcoin is a flood network | 15:28 |
| phantomcircuit | lightning is point to point network | 15:28 |
| jgarzik | dgenr8, Many people did aggregate Usenet - a flood-fill network - into daily digests... | 15:28 |
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| nsh | <dgenr8> i observe that the internet did not scale via ISP's aggregating incoming packets into a daily digest # deserves some kind of analogy police award lol | 15:32 |
| gmaxwell | dgenr8: you've misunderstod lightning (again). There need be no address reuse at all. | 15:32 |
| gmaxwell | nsh: apparently dgenr8 doesn't use DNS | 15:33 |
| * nsh smiles | 15:33 | |
| gmaxwell | dgenr8: to do _any_ transfer with lightning requires a seperate protocol for communicating with the micropayment hub network. | 15:33 |
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| dgenr8 | gmaxwell: how do 2 different senders send to my channel? | 15:42 |
| jgarzik | dgenr8, have you read Rusty's blog posts on Lightning? | 15:43 |
| dgenr8 | yes | 15:43 |
| jgarzik | They are a great resource | 15:44 |
| jgarzik | good | 15:44 |
| gmaxwell | dgenr8: "your channel" ? You don't have just one channel, you have multiple, and any channel has two endpoints. | 15:44 |
| gmaxwell | dgenr8: read them again? | 15:44 |
| dgenr8 | gmaxwell: not germaine to the question | 15:44 |
| gmaxwell | A basic understanding of the system is critical to having any discussion about it. | 15:45 |
| dgenr8 | gmaxwell: clearly I don't have a different channel for every incoming payment, or the whole thing is a waste of time, space, money, bandwidth, and valuable human energy. | 15:45 |
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| gmaxwell | A channel itself only is transacted directly on by its endpoints. Please, go reread the information, --- I've talked to a dozen random people at the bitcoin SF devs meetup who managed to get the idea without trouble, you're just missing an overall understanding. | 15:47 |
| dgenr8 | gmaxwell: so, no answer to my simple question will be forthcoming? | 15:49 |
| gmaxwell | dgenr8: the answer is "by using the lightning network" | 15:50 |
| gmaxwell | which, is unsurprisingly, not useful to you. | 15:50 |
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| dgenr8 | gmaxwell: i don't see why it's surprising to you that circular reasoning is not useful to me | 15:54 |
| dgenr8 | gmaxwell: oh, you did say it was unsurprising. we agree on that then. | 15:55 |
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| gmaxwell | dgenr8: responding basically requires explaining how the whole thing works, up from the very premise-- which it why I suggested you go reread that. | 15:56 |
| gmaxwell | Because you clearly misunderstood it completely if you believe that a third party makes a bitcoin transaction directly to your endpoint address in a channel. | 15:56 |
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| dgenr8 | gmaxwell: paper clearly states that an HTLC contains R, and a bitcoin address. | 15:57 |
| dgenr8 | hash(R) .. don't know what's come over me | 15:58 |
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| dgenr8 | Ugh. I find this paper to be more inscrutable than ethereum. While nearly every sentence evokes an air of sensibility, precise meanings are very elusive and I'm constantly wondering if this or that is a typo/omission. | 17:05 |
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| --- Log closed Sat Jul 11 00:00:07 2015 | ||
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