| --- Log opened Sat Jul 11 00:00:07 2015 | ||
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| jonasschnelli | is there a way to encrypt 32byte AES key with a bitcoin EC (secp256k) public key and decrypt it with the corresponding private key on a different device? I assume ECDSA is the wrong approach. | 00:32 |
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| gmaxwell | jonasschnelli: what are you trying to accomplish? | 00:36 |
| jonasschnelli | gmaxwell: I have a hardware wallet without display (just one button to allow signing). Not i'd like to have the possibility to display the payment information ("pay x to y") on a smartphone. The smartphone app should be capable of exporting a pubkey (EC not RSA if possible) and send it by email over a PC to my hardware wallet. There i could encrypt the "pay x to z" information and send it encrypted over QR code to the smartphone | 00:37 |
| jonasschnelli | where i can decrypt | 00:37 |
| jonasschnelli | MITM prevention. | 00:38 |
| jonasschnelli | Not/Now | 00:38 |
| gmaxwell | jonasschnelli: why not have the smartphone sign the a message authorizing the transaction instead of encrypting something? | 00:40 |
| jonasschnelli | gmaxwell: Would be a different concept. This would mean, the tx needs to always supports multisig and the smartphone app must be capable to broadcast (or the tx must somehow transfered back to the pc/hardware wallet which is not easy). | 00:42 |
| gmaxwell | no no | 00:42 |
| gmaxwell | Did I say multisig? | 00:42 |
| gmaxwell | I think you're invoking encryption to authenticate/authorize. Which might be ill fit. The hardware wallet wants to see a message telling it to pay according to what the phone approved, right? | 00:43 |
| gmaxwell | The approiate tool to communicate the approval is a signature, generally, not encryption. | 00:43 |
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| jonasschnelli | gmaxwell: Right. The hardware wallet want to make sure the information sent to the smartphone can be verified to make sure nobody has tempered with it. | 00:44 |
| jonasschnelli | Okay. I see. This would mean the hardware wallet needs to export the pubkey for verifiying ot the smartphone. | 00:45 |
| gmaxwell | I think that fits well with your QR code goes in one direction model? | 00:46 |
| jonasschnelli | But, wouldn't that mean MITM could read the information? (Which is a different problem) | 00:46 |
| gmaxwell | yes, though MITM could read the information going into the hardware wallet in the first place. | 00:49 |
| jonasschnelli | i kinda tough smartphone -> send pubkey to hw wallet (only once) -> hw wallet encrypt aes key, hw wallet aes encrypts qr code data -> hw wallet send aes encrypted QR containing the EC encrypted aes key at the stream[:32] code to smartphone -> smartphone decrypts the aes key with EC decrypt -> smartphone decrypts the aes stream and displays the information. | 00:50 |
| gmaxwell | jonasschnelli: what I eman is that the hardware wallet didn't come up with the thing you're asking it to sign whole cloth on its own-- the PC asked it to sign it, right? | 00:51 |
| jonasschnelli | right. | 00:51 |
| jonasschnelli | the hw wallet (because it has no screen) likes to ask the smartphone if he should sign the transaction which was created by the PC ("pay x to z" comes originally from the PC) | 00:53 |
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| gmaxwell | Right, so the data is not secret to the PC already. | 00:58 |
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| jonasschnelli | gmaxwell: okay. Thats true. But do you think it's not achievable to ensure a secure channel between the hw wallet and the smartphone? | 01:02 |
| gmaxwell | jonasschnelli: It is, you need communication in the other direction to do so. | 01:03 |
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| gmaxwell | and it would require the hardware wallet to do ECDH and AES rather than just signing. | 01:05 |
| jonasschnelli | gmaxwell: Right. But i just saw that libsecp256k1 only supports ECDSA. | 01:05 |
| jonasschnelli | gmaxwell: The HW wallet supports ECDH. | 01:05 |
| jonasschnelli | (or could support) | 01:06 |
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| * jonasschnelli thanks gmaxwell for the support! | 01:08 | |
| gmaxwell | jonasschnelli: No problem; though I think I'm still not sure what you're trying to accomplish. You'd require significantly more complexity (a whole new cryptosystem), and bidirectional communication (to get a key back from the phone to the hw-wallet) where otherwise you just need one way communication, and all you gain is the ability to hide the information from the PC that saw it otherwise. an | 01:09 |
| gmaxwell | d you lose the ability to e.g. check the transaction with multiple devices if you want. | 01:09 |
| gmaxwell | jonasschnelli: libsecp256k1 only supports the things we're using, pretty much. We have not had a reason to have ECDSA in Bitcoin core previously. | 01:10 |
| gmaxwell | And most implementations of it are not very competent (e.g. leak the private key via a cache or timing sidechannel). | 01:11 |
| jonasschnelli | gmaxwell: but what would be wrong if the smartphone would send the EC pubkey over email to the hw wallet? This would allow the HW wallet to send encrpted messaged to the smartphone in one way? doesn't it? | 01:11 |
| jonasschnelli | (gmaxwell: agree, sidechannel attackes for hw wallet are quite easy for most implementations). | 01:12 |
| gmaxwell | jonasschnelli: so what happens when the host intercepts that pubkey, replaces with another, and just reencrypts the messages as they go through? | 01:12 |
| gmaxwell | also means the phone has to have working email, can't just be a serviceless phone that only communicates via QR; though I don't know how much that matters for your application. Though if you're assuming no connectivity, perhaps using internet instead of QR might be better. | 01:13 |
| jonasschnelli | gmaxwell: right. If MITM would replace the pubkey, he could read the information. Indeed. | 01:15 |
| jonasschnelli | the smartphone should not act as secure/cold/space. Just as a 2FA and a way to ensure the user know what he is signing by pushing the hw button. | 01:16 |
| gmaxwell | jonasschnelli: does the hardware wallet have an LED? | 01:16 |
| jonasschnelli | yes. | 01:16 |
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| jonasschnelli | Maybe the current way is not so bad (in case of security) but not user friendly. The hw can export a aes key over a micro sd card (attached to the hw wallet). Android phones can directly import the aes key over the sd card. This totally bypassed PC/internet | 01:18 |
| gmaxwell | so if the hardware wallet signs that the hardware wallet could flash in morse-like-code the public key it signed with. and the phone could show this to the user -- or better use the same camera to just observe it for itself, then the PC cannot MITM. | 01:18 |
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| gmaxwell | the bandwidth of the blink channel need not be great, as it need only communicate a hundred bits or so. | 01:19 |
| jonasschnelli | gmaxwell: hah. Yes. Why not... i mean the message would be around 60bytes to so... so 480 morses. ? | 01:19 |
| jonasschnelli | Yeah. I need to check/test what morse rate would be possible. I kinda like this idea. | 01:20 |
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| gmaxwell | well if it only communicates the key (or just parts of the hash of the key) via blinks it wouldn't need to send much, 128 bits would be adequate. If the HW wallet can PWM the led it would probably be possible to send 128 bits in a couple seconds (by coding multiple bits per symbol) | 01:22 |
| gmaxwell | e.g. if you assume the camera can run at 20fps, and the led can produce 4 reliably distinguishable brightness levels, thats 3 seconds, perhaps twice that for error correction and syncronization overhead. | 01:24 |
| jonasschnelli | Indeed. This idea sounds a bit geeky. But i think if nicly encapsulated in a stylish UI, this could be more fun than read a QR code. | 01:25 |
| jonasschnelli | thanks greg. | 01:28 |
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| leakypat | jonasschnelli: Bloomberg do this when setting up a terminal with their bkey login cards | 01:46 |
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| leakypat | It is very geeky | 01:46 |
| jonasschnelli | leakypat: they do flash in mores? | 01:47 |
| gwillen | there was a watch that would send data from the computer to the watch by modulating the brightness of the computer screen | 01:47 |
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| gwillen | before smartwatches existed (or bluetooth) | 01:47 |
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| leakypat | Bunit sorry | 01:47 |
| nsh | oh, that was pretty common data modality when sensors were weak | 01:47 |
| nsh | my dad used to wear one of those watches until a few years ago i think | 01:48 |
| leakypat | http://www.bloomberg.com/professional/content/uploads/sites/4/2015/03/b-unit_2_user_guide.pdf | 01:48 |
| jonasschnelli | The only thing with brightness/morse or sound (even with qr code), if someone creates a video... | 01:48 |
| gwillen | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timex_Datalink | 01:48 |
| nsh | well, you can do DH if the device can talk back or front some randomness | 01:49 |
| leakypat | jonasschnelli: yeah, when my wallet pairs the chrome app with a mobile, I encrypt the QR code and they have to enter heir password on their phone | 01:49 |
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| leakypat | Incase it gets saved to the cloud or something | 01:49 |
| nsh | it shouldn't be possible to recreate the message from a video of the screen without some extra secret | 01:49 |
| nsh | [extra and ephemeral] | 01:50 |
| gmaxwell | jonasschnelli: more realistically... but less fun, the hw wallet can come from the factor with its message auth pubkey printed on it. then you can take the signed auth message, even send it to a friend to have him read back what it would do and the pubkey. | 01:52 |
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| jonasschnelli | gmaxwell: Yeah. But would be a very static key. But because the priv is only in the hw, this could make sense. But with this printing solutions i always hope nobody could touch the priv keys during that process within the factory. | 01:54 |
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| gmaxwell | well even if they do, they have to get that key onto the PC to do anything evil with it. Also, if they can tamper with the device in the factory, they can make it secretly leak the signing private key in the signatures. | 01:55 |
| * nsh wonders about the feasibility of a leak-evidence signature scheme | 01:56 | |
| nsh | *leak-evident | 01:56 |
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| nsh | heh 'Signature Schemes with Bounded Leakage Resilience' -- https://eprint.iacr.org/2009/220.pdf | 01:57 |
| gmaxwell | nsh: it looks like the best you can do with a plain DL signature is make a channel to anything past the PC exponentially expensive. (e.g. has to do 2^n operations in the hw wallet, for n bits of channel per signature) | 01:57 |
| nsh | hmm | 01:58 |
| gmaxwell | nsh: nah that means something else. | 01:58 |
| nsh | aye | 01:58 |
| nsh | how would you encoding in a DL signature exponentially expensive? | 01:58 |
| nsh | hmm, i wonder if you can attest that a nonce as been whitened through a hash function with some number of runs with fixed concatenations | 01:59 |
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| gmaxwell | require the device to prove that R = H(R')*G + R' | 02:00 |
| nsh | that would reduce encoding to preimage or collision resistance | 02:00 |
| nsh | right | 02:00 |
| gmaxwell | its a big improvement. | 02:00 |
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| gmaxwell | I mean otherwise a single signature can leak the private key directly. .. but sadly it's not hard to use an erasure code to statelessly promise that once you've signed a couple hundred messages the attacker can recover you private key even if the channel is only 1 bit. | 02:01 |
| * nsh nods | 02:02 | |
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| nsh | you could maybe factor out entropy generation from less-trustedly manufactured and delivered devices | 02:04 |
| nsh | but that adds complexity which is an invitation for weakness | 02:04 |
| gmaxwell | e.g. attacker pubkey is Q, x is your secret, m is message wallet computes H(xQ||m) and uses the result to get an encryption key and index into an error correcting coded copy of the secret to leak. Encrypts the selected codeword and grinds it into R. | 02:04 |
| nsh | neat | 02:05 |
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| instagibbs | jcorgan: Tor hidden service connections aren't that hard. I have some code that works, but you need bitcoinj >12.3, so no stable version that actually works. | 04:44 |
| instagibbs | It's mostly a function of people not caring. Therefore: bc.info. I think there are at least a few people who would like to run full nodes, but are also on the go and use SPV. | 04:48 |
| jcorgan | instagibbs: one of my nodes is a Tor-only hidden service running in a trusted environment; that's not an issue. my main wish is to have UTXOs in cold storage on a BIP32 chain (done), but have an SPV watching wallet that can scan the chain with the xpub key. | 05:10 |
| jcorgan | Electrum is close but doesn't use BIP39 and of course requires a stratum server somewhere instead of just talking P2P. | 05:12 |
| instagibbs | i see | 05:14 |
| instagibbs | that's kind of specific actually :P | 05:14 |
| jcorgan | i wouldn't think so. SPV/BIP32/BIP39 are all bitcoin "standards" | 05:15 |
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| instagibbs | no i mean your use case | 05:16 |
| instagibbs | probably the reason why | 05:16 |
| jcorgan | "direct deposit to cold storage" | 05:16 |
| instagibbs | not saying it's not useful | 05:17 |
| instagibbs | alright heading out later | 05:18 |
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| --- Log closed Sun Jul 12 00:00:08 2015 | ||
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