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| waxwing | is there a nice writeup anywhere of how schnorr sigs could enable multisig/threshold sigs? | 04:37 |
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| ruby32 | is there any literature available on the practical use-cases of CLTV (other than the obvious inheritance example that i see everywhere)? | 10:27 |
| GAit | ruby32: trustless payment channels? https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0065.mediawiki see motivations | 10:29 |
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| amiller | i think checklocktimeverify can make those lottery examples and cross-chain-atomic swap examples much easier | 10:51 |
| amiller | and require fewer complicated rounds of interaction between the parties | 10:51 |
| amiller | you *can* do it without CLTV, but you need to basically create a transaction ahead of time with an nLockTime, get the other party to sign it without seeing the transaction it depends on | 10:52 |
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| Eliel | amiller: isn't that somewhat risky due to malleability? | 11:39 |
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| amiller | Eliel, yeah i think so... so CLTV means you can do this without worrying about malleability too another benefit | 11:51 |
| GAit | Eliel: only if the attacker knows the transaction or has enough reach to malleate enough % of transaction to make payment channel generally insecure/risky | 11:52 |
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| nsh | can you elaborate GAit | 11:53 |
| GAit | I was agreeing with Eliel | 11:54 |
| GAit | and amiller | 11:54 |
| GAit | i recall someone at some point malleating a lot of transaction | 11:55 |
| nsh | ok | 11:55 |
| Eliel | My understanding is that the current bitcoind limits relaying malleated transactions quite a bit by having more strict rules for relaying than what is accepted in blocks. | 11:56 |
| Eliel | I expect relay level protections are good enough for practical use. | 11:58 |
| Eliel | as in, it'd basically take a miner wilfully including malleated transactions for anything to happen. | 11:58 |
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| GAit | as of now any implementation would need to be prepared to catch malleated confirmed transaction and provide new nLockTime transaction | 11:59 |
| GAit | with CLTV it's atomic, although i often wonder about its privacy implication | 12:00 |
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| Eliel | Well, if the malleability issue can be tackled, I don't think CLTV is particularly useful for this use case. | 12:01 |
| iddo | attacker can attach higher fee to the malleated transaction, so it'd depend on whether miners are running unmodified client, or they're rational | 12:01 |
| iddo | CLTV is great, it removes the need for refund transaction, in payment channels etc. | 12:02 |
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| iddo | also solves malleability | 12:02 |
| waxwing | i guess people here would know, am i right in saying that the definition of c_i in 4.4 of the cryptonote whitepaper is wrong? | 12:02 |
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| iddo | actually i guess i'm wrong, attacker cannot change the fee in transaction he mutated | 12:07 |
| amiller | has anyone written the CLTV version of our favorite transactions | 12:07 |
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| amiller | waxwing, what's wrong with it? | 12:08 |
| amiller | oh | 12:09 |
| waxwing | amiller: it says c - sigma(c_i) for i=0 to n | 12:09 |
| waxwing | should be i != s or some such | 12:09 |
| amiller | it should be c - sum(w_i, for i not in s) | 12:09 |
| amiller | yeah | 12:09 |
| waxwing | trivial but when you're clueless these things slow you down :) | 12:09 |
| waxwing | would have been more intuitive to use w_i instead of c_i as well | 12:10 |
| amiller | yes | 12:10 |
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| jcorgan | woo my bitnodes hardware just arrived. there goes the rest of my afternoon :-) | 13:11 |
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| nsh | oh, that thing looks very cool! ( https://getaddr.bitnodes.io/hardware/ ) | 13:36 |
| nsh | would get more points for grsec/pax rather than vanilla ubuntu, tor support | 13:37 |
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| jcorgan | i'll be hacking in Tor support | 13:43 |
| * nsh smiles | 13:43 | |
| jcorgan | shouldn't be hard, just apt-get installing and config file changes | 13:43 |
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| jcorgan | i think the board also has a wifi interface on it, would be nice to untether it from the LAN | 13:56 |
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| Adlai | so if waxwing broke the ice, may i complain about line 107 of borromean_draft_0.01_8c3f9e7 ? | 15:28 |
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| Adlai | nsh: last i checked they ship 0.10.2 :( | 15:28 |
| nsh | ah | 15:30 |
| Luke-Jr | kinda defeats the point if you can't control the software easily | 15:32 |
| * Adlai is clueless about these things, shouldn't each e_i commit the previous s dot g plus current e dot ? | 15:32 | |
| Adlai | then you forge by fixing the previous (ie, last you generate, first you _calculate_) s? | 15:33 |
| Adlai | previous s dot g plus current e dot P | 15:33 |
| Luke-Jr | wat | 15:34 |
| Adlai | http://i.imgur.com/OqcjL1e.png | 15:35 |
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| dpfs | Any good advice out there for blockKicked block recovery/resubmit for valid bitcoin block kicked due to bad worker/user names? Already deleted Redis database entries on all shares associated with bad worker/user names while trying to fix issue. Any help and reward of 10% goes to you. We are using NOMP. | 16:09 |
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| dpfs | ping admin | 16:20 |
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| Adlai | !ops | 16:22 |
| * Adlai brainstorms the nicest way to spell 'gtfo' | 16:22 | |
| dpfs | Kicks work well | 16:24 |
| * Adlai kicks dpfs in the shins | 16:24 | |
| * dpfs crying | 16:25 | |
| Adlai | so you'd actually have to calculate all but the first s, but only the last calculation involves the signing key | 16:25 |
| * dpfs at hospital with broken leg | 16:27 | |
| dpfs | Every share or block hash? | 16:27 |
| * Adlai casts it to an int, clots overflow and now broken(dpfs->leg) -> 0 | 16:27 | |
| Adlai | dpfs: http://i.imgur.com/OqcjL1e.png | 16:28 |
| Adlai | also /topic, at least read the logs, it's the least a spammer could do | 16:28 |
| dpfs | You'd be surprised how close on topic I am. | 16:29 |
| * Adlai loves supplies | 16:29 | |
| dpfs | I have more than a few things to contribute here once I get past this. | 16:29 |
| * dpfs wondering what's wrong with piping to null | 16:30 | |
| * Adlai redirects /dev/null to /u/nullc | 16:30 | |
| Adlai | also, "reward of 10% goes to you" seems the antithesis of "not about short-term Bitcoin development" | 16:32 |
| Adlai | at the very least pitch your needs in #blockstream | 16:32 |
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| dpfs | Unless, I'm also implementing error correction in code and not just some noob trying to save a lost buck... | 16:34 |
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| dpfs | If you have some ideas, please share. Otherwise, stfu because you're making it obvious that you have no knowledge to share. | 16:35 |
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| Adlai | all i know is that i'm clueless about these things so my job is to slow you down | 16:35 |
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| * dpfs grins | 16:36 | |
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| kanzure | fluffypony: ping | 16:37 |
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| dpfs | Btw, the only solution for new theoretical ideas to come to market is creating the public perception that it's an accounting solution. | 16:39 |
| Adlai | please shill joinmarket elsewhere | 16:39 |
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| dpfs | What's Adlai an acronym for? Anti Developer Lacking All Intelligence? | 16:42 |
| Adlai | Androirc Does Leak All Internetprotocoladdresses | 16:43 |
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| * dpfs grins | 16:47 | |
| dpfs | That is cool | 16:47 |
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| dpfs | Seriously, if my question is *that* rattletrip --it's faster to eliminate things by letting it pass. | 16:49 |
| dpfs | Similar to IP | 16:50 |
| dpfs | Detection is a 2-way street | 16:50 |
| gmaxwell | Adlai: No. Go try to figure out how you'd sign for that. | 16:50 |
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| dpfs | Jesus, it's been training others all day and I can't get some input to save my crippled legs lol | 16:53 |
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| M-_mis | . | 16:54 |
| dpfs | Adlai: You wouldn't believe how many devs I talk to that don't understand the basic concepts Debit && Credit who think they have the next big idea. | 16:55 |
| * nsh points to the quiet, people reading sign on the wall | 16:55 | |
| Adlai | so... "just choose s_i at random" is confusing me. the random scalar is k_j, s_i depends only on e_i-1 until i=j | 16:55 |
| nsh | Adlai, you can 'go back in time' on any vertex in the borromean ring | 16:56 |
| nsh | it's arbitrary | 16:56 |
| Adlai | don't you need to know x for that vertex? | 16:56 |
| * Adlai is assuming 'you' only know one x | 16:57 | |
| Adlai | aka x_j | 16:57 |
| MatrixBridge | <M-_mis> posted an image: http://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/nLEWUrtrGpFSPPsoKsPEjZcE - Screenshot from 2015-07-14 19:58:47.png (2801KB) | 16:57 |
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| nsh | Adlai, are you thinking about multi-signer rings? | 16:59 |
| * Adlai is thinking about lines 106-111 of the borromean rings paper: http://i.imgur.com/OqcjL1e.png | 17:00 | |
| nsh | the [simplifying] assumption is that one person/alphad generates that whole commitment cycle | 17:01 |
| nsh | so which segment you fake by choosing e nonradonmly is arbitrary | 17:01 |
| nsh | and the best way to pick is at random | 17:01 |
| nsh | (only secure way to pick is at random) | 17:02 |
| Adlai | but the cryptosystem described in that paragraph doesn't depend on that? | 17:02 |
| nsh | in general, you can have groups of signers proving arbitrary monotone functions on their possession of private keys | 17:02 |
| * Adlai is trying to understand the paper, not the code | 17:02 | |
| prosodyContext | . | 17:03 |
| nsh | in which case each signer would have to pick at random from amongst the e's they contributed | 17:03 |
| nsh | when making the loops | 17:03 |
| Adlai | still, you need to know x_j for the k_j which you generate randomly | 17:03 |
| Adlai | assuming you know only one x_j, you could still pick which e to call "e_0" | 17:05 |
| Adlai | for the signature which you ultimately publish | 17:05 |
| nsh | you publish the whole structure | 17:05 |
| Adlai | The final signature is σ = {e 0 , s 0 , s 1 , . . . , s n−1 }. | 17:06 |
| M-_mis | mwowm | 17:07 |
| Adlai | couldn't that be rephrased as "the signer publishes each s_i and any one of the e_i" ? | 17:11 |
| nsh | yes, that might have avoided some confusion | 17:11 |
| Adlai | although specifying that the published e is e_0 makes clear which s_i matches | 17:12 |
| nsh | it's just symmetry and convention and deficiencies in linear script :) | 17:12 |
| Adlai | Linear C? | 17:12 |
| nsh | i mean, the fact that we express ideas sequentially | 17:12 |
| nsh | you can't efficiently textually convey an ordering symmetry | 17:13 |
| nsh | mathematics and language could be better married, conceivably. though we do amazing well, considering | 17:14 |
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| prosodyContext | (:) | 17:17 |
| M-_mis | (∫) | 17:17 |
| M-_mis | (. _<3 ) )) )* | 17:20 |
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| prosodyContext | ... ** an ordering (r)economy? | 17:22 |
| * nsh frowns | 17:22 | |
| prosodyContext | reconemetry/end | 17:22 |
| * M-_mis sings and er or runs amway | 17:23 | |
| nsh | is it a special drinking day someone and someone forgot to tell me? | 17:23 |
| nsh | *somewhere | 17:23 |
| prosodyContext | maps.org | 17:23 |
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| Adlai | if you're gonna burn altruistically, there are so many better destinations | 17:24 |
| M-_mis | .. . | 17:24 |
| prosodyContext | _. | 17:24 |
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| prosodyContext | ._. | 17:26 |
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| prosodyContext | E_Reconomwy.∫(.._ | 17:29 |
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| nsh | prosodyContext, M-_mis if you are human, can you please stop posting nonsense | 17:34 |
| nsh | thanks | 17:34 |
| prosodyContext | nsh, r u raciscnsht? er just heardly hearing? | 17:35 |
| justanotheruser | !ops | 17:36 |
| prosodyContext | I just want to read. Red. Thlog thnk you. tyl | 17:37 |
| prosodyContext | .∫/me /end | 17:37 |
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| @gwillen | prosodyContext: please stop that | 17:37 |
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| gmaxwell | Adlai: no. e0 is always e0. Changing which E you'd send wouldn't help at all, unless you broke the commitment structure (e.g. by including s values in the commitment) in which case it would leak whick one it was signing. | 17:48 |
| * dpfs faceplanted | 17:48 | |
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| prosodyContext | Jargon is key, if I may say. It helps to have thlog(? Mwake an engry face if thiz willim getemeff banned.U222b∫(? | 19:33 |
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| prosodyContext | CI | 19:51 |
| prosodyContext | CILL | 19:52 |
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| M-_mis | EILL | 19:56 |
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| --- Log closed Wed Jul 15 00:00:11 2015 | ||
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