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| Eliel | amiller: I considered a system where double spends would be solved by simply burning the conflicting coins, but then abandoned the idea since I thought that might discourage the use of the system at all. | 01:06 |
|---|---|---|
| amiller | Eliel, hmm, was the system different in any other ways? why did you want to solve double spends that way? | 01:08 |
| Eliel | amiller: yes, I was considering alternate ways to deal with double spends as a thought experiment. | 01:09 |
| Eliel | can't really speak of a single system though. I didn't go that far. | 01:10 |
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| Eliel | I was wondering if you could relax the requirement of a chain and allow a tree that forks and joins. | 01:11 |
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| Eliel | the main problem was that if you do that, you'd need some clear points in the graph that after which you can no longer make coins vanish. | 01:16 |
| nsh | what happens if you don't have a cut-off? | 01:17 |
| Eliel | well, imagine someone leaks their private key and someone makes a double spend for a transaction they made a year ago | 01:18 |
| nsh | (but instead, e.g., allow redundant paths with threshold to validate spending tip) | 01:19 |
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| nsh | we could picture a DAG ledger basis where as long as there is a single unvalidated flow that equals or exceeds that total transaction amount then it remains valid, and participants can reshore the transaction by adding new inputs as old inputs become more fragile | 01:21 |
| nsh | this is not SPV friendly i think | 01:22 |
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| Eliel | although SPV friendlyness could perhaps be restored to a degree if merkle hash tree storing transactions was included in each node of the "consensus" tree. | 01:26 |
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| Eliel | I wonder if there's an efficient way to compare if there are any conflicts in 2 such merkle hash trees when their common ancestor is known. | 01:28 |
| nsh | andytosh1 might know | 01:29 |
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| nsh | -- | 02:04 |
| nsh | I'm pleased to announce the release of Incremental (well commented mli here), a powerful library for building self-adjusting computations, i.e., computations that can be updated efficiently when their inputs change. | 02:04 |
| nsh | At its simplest, you can think of a self-adjusting computation as a fancy spreadsheet. In a spreadsheet, each cell contains either simple data, or an equation that describes how the value in this cell should be derived from values in other cells. Collectively, this amounts to a graph-structured computation, and one of the critical optimizations in Excel is that when some of the cells change, Excel only recomputes the parts of the graph that depend on tho | 02:04 |
| nsh | se changed cells. | 02:04 |
| nsh | What makes self-adjusting computation (or SAC) different from a spreadsheet is its dynamism. The structure of the computational graph in an SAC can change at runtime, in response to the changing input data. | 02:04 |
| nsh | -- https://blogs.janestreet.com/introducing-incremental/ | 02:04 |
| nsh | (difficulty: OCaml) | 02:04 |
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| ajweiss | this looks like a framework for defining message passing semantics for graphical probabilistic models to me... | 08:46 |
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| nsh | ajweiss, hmm? | 08:52 |
| ajweiss | this incremental stuff... | 08:54 |
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| ajweiss | i've only done a little bit with graphical modeling, but when i played around it was all about a big graph of random variables with conditional dependencies.. after updating one you'd walk the graph and update the appropriate depedent nodes... | 08:56 |
| nsh | ah, right | 08:56 |
| ajweiss | they called it message passing, which i always thought was a bit confusing since that has many other very different meanings | 08:57 |
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| -!- Topic for #bitcoin-wizards: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja | 14:09 | |
| -!- Topic set by wumpus [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/wumpus] [Sat Jun 27 01:24:18 2015] | 14:09 | |
| [Users #bitcoin-wizards] | 14:09 | |
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| [ AaronvanW ] [ comboy ] [ gribble ] [ kumavis ] [ PaulCapestany ] [ SwedFTP ] | 14:09 | |
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| [ Adlai ] [ coryfields_ ] [ Guest71952 ] [ larraboj ] [ phantomcircuit ] [ TD-Linux ] | 14:09 | |
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| -!- Irssi: #bitcoin-wizards: Total of 242 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 240 normal] | 14:09 | |
| -!- Channel #bitcoin-wizards created Mon Feb 25 23:24:47 2013 | 14:09 | |
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| gmaxwell | Dealing with DOS attacks on the Bitcoin system: http://xkcd.com/1552/ | 15:09 |
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| CodeShark | not enough meat to go around | 15:12 |
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| gmaxwell | https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1129388.0 someone else presenting single show signatures as a solution to doublespending. | 19:48 |
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| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] ehm | 22:08 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] lamport signature security also only generally halves with every subsequent re-signing | 22:08 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] if i remember right | 22:08 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] so you have to sign a bunch of times to make it totally insecure | 22:09 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] you can also just spend your outpoint with a 0 value and give the whole thing to fees if you're really mad at whoever you're sending it to, or pass them the private key so they can do that too | 22:10 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] it's not really a solution to doublespends, just a way to maybe disincentivize it a little more | 22:11 |
| gmaxwell | tacotime: no it falls of much faster than havling. | 22:15 |
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| CodeShark | if we're going to go that route, let's just make it a protocol rule that any miner that can include proof of a double spend in a block gets to keep half the coins and the other half is destroyed | 22:15 |
| CodeShark | why resort to crypto hacks? | 22:16 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] gmaxwell: well, it depends on the message chosen by the attacker.. | 22:16 |
| gmaxwell | CodeShark: I pointed that out. | 22:16 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] or published in general | 22:16 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] with an inverse message, one extra publication breaks it, right? | 22:16 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] http://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/2640/lamport-signature-how-many-signatures-are-needed-to-forge-a-signature | 22:17 |
| gmaxwell | tacotime: the data being signed is a hash. The security falls off much faster than half per signature even if the signed values are uniform. | 22:17 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] on average it's /=2 though i thought | 22:17 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] well, yeah, if m is a hash | 22:18 |
| gmaxwell | M is always a hash for both pratical reasons and security reasons. | 22:18 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] in application, yeah. | 22:19 |
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| gmaxwell | Perhaps you meant to say the the security is square-rooted with each successive additional signature? that would be a reasonable approximation. | 22:23 |
| gmaxwell | in any case, one can easily construct an N-show signature; e.g. one which is completely secure unless its signed with more than N times. | 22:25 |
| gmaxwell | but what utility that has is ... anyones' guess. :) | 22:26 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] ehm. maybe our nomenclature is being confused. on average, if you had 256-bits of security in terms of your ability to forge a signature, with 1 subsequent publication you it drops to 128-bits, another 64-bits, another 32-bits... | 22:26 |
| CodeShark | the square root of a 256-bit number is 128-bits | 22:27 |
| CodeShark | the square root of a 128-bit number is 64 bits | 22:27 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] because there is an 1-in-2 probability of revealing the private key bits for any randomly generated message that was being signed (we assume the output is pseudorandom if it's a hash) | 22:27 |
| gmaxwell | That isn't halving the security. Halving it would be going from 256 to 255 bits and so on. Thats a decrease by a factor of 2^128, then 2^64... it's taking the sqrt of work to forge a signature. | 22:27 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] oh... yeah, then it's nomenclature. that's what i meant. | 22:27 |
| gmaxwell | When you said "bunch of times" I thought you were saying e.g. 64 times... rather than like .. 4. :) | 22:28 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] oh, heh, no. it halves the exponent, which is the same as taking the square root, you're right. | 22:28 |
| gmaxwell | If you can do chosen messages you can hurt much more, even if getting an inverse is infeasable, though at the 128 bit security level it doesn't make a huge difference. | 22:29 |
| gmaxwell | but for 1024 bit it would make a pretty big difference. | 22:30 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] right. i think this lamport signature stuff came up forever ago for bitcoin too, like early 2014 or 2013. | 22:30 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] i don't think anyone ever thought there was a practical application. | 22:30 |
| CodeShark | in any case, strongly relying on specific peculiarities of a specific signature scheme for the security of the protocol is probably a terrible idea longterm | 22:31 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] at least, not in the realm of making tx instantaneous or something. | 22:31 |
| gmaxwell | Single show signatures have been indpendantly proposed for "preventing double spends" three times in this channel's history, in fact. | 22:32 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] lol. i thought of it too a while ago, but then just thought "why not just send the recipient the private key so he can burn you if you try to steal it?" | 22:33 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] it's a lot less work | 22:33 |
| gmaxwell | well, incompatible with secure recept of change. | 22:34 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] right. | 22:34 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] you'd have to make an output of exactly the amount you wanted to send, then wait for it to be embedded in the blockchain, making the whole effort pointless. | 22:35 |
| gmaxwell | but with CPFP and cooperative income optimizing miners, RBF scortched earth gets you the same outcome and no cooperation with the sender is required. | 22:35 |
| gmaxwell | which gives you an economically idenical (arguably not very useful) outcoime. | 22:35 |
| gmaxwell | er outcome. | 22:35 |
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| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] yeah. i always considered the doublespending issue to be more or less intractable, i don't know if a lot of recent advances have been made into the area since i last looked. | 22:36 |
| CodeShark | retroactive invalidation means either coins must be locked down until the timewindow to invalidate expires...or it means all descendants risk being reversed | 22:38 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] i know i've seen lightning throw around "instant transactions", but i'm not sure how their solution works around the issue. | 22:39 |
| CodeShark | lightning works around the issue by requiring proactive invalidation | 22:39 |
| CodeShark | you must watch the blockchain and react within a timewindow if the counterparty does not cooperate | 22:40 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] ah | 22:40 |
| gmaxwell | tacotime: instant transactions are no problem at all and require no invalidation. | 22:40 |
| CodeShark | as long as the parties cooperate, instant transactions are possible...but it does require one to anchor at least one transaction in the blockchain | 22:41 |
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| CodeShark | so it's sort of like a debit card | 22:41 |
| CodeShark | you need to make a deposit and wait for it to confirm - then you can make instant transactions | 22:41 |
| gmaxwell | what lightning needs invalidation for is to make the channels bidirectional. | 22:41 |
| gmaxwell | (so that you can be sure the final state of the channel is what gets comitted to and not some penultimate state) | 22:43 |
| CodeShark | well, there are two kinds of invalidation - one is by making it more appealing for the counterparty to sign and publish the later transaction...the other is by making the later transaction invalidation period shorter | 22:43 |
| CodeShark | the first one isn't really strictly invalidation | 22:43 |
| CodeShark | but one can think of it as such - it strongly incentivizes throwing away one transaction in favor of another | 22:43 |
| CodeShark | the latter also isn't strictly invalidation | 22:44 |
| CodeShark | but the counterparty stands to lose everything were they to publish the first transaction | 22:44 |
| gmaxwell | none of which is required for instant transactions. | 22:45 |
| CodeShark | it's the threat that's important | 22:45 |
| CodeShark | ideally, both parties cooperate and close out the channel gracefully | 22:46 |
| gmaxwell | No. All of this is irrelevant for instant transactions. | 22:46 |
| CodeShark | trustless irreversible instant transactions? | 22:47 |
| gmaxwell | Yes, irrelevant to that. | 22:47 |
| CodeShark | howso? | 22:47 |
| gmaxwell | It is only needed to make the micropayment channel bidirectional (which makes it possible to leave it open much longer and such, and reduce the amount of total funds locked up and such.. all great, but not requirements for instant transactions) | 22:48 |
| gmaxwell | CodeShark: a _plain_ micropayment hub gives trivial instant transactions and needs none of those mechenisms. | 22:48 |
| CodeShark | right, like I said, the other "invalidation" mechanism is simply paying the counterparty more in the second transaction than the first | 22:48 |
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| CodeShark | but yes, in this case you don't need proactive measures | 22:49 |
| CodeShark | or reactive measures, rather | 22:49 |
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| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] when you say 'plain' micropayment hub, what are we referring to? | 22:50 |
| CodeShark | unidirectional payment channels | 22:51 |
| CodeShark | you replace transaction A with transaction B simply by paying the counterparty more in transaction B | 22:51 |
| CodeShark | and only the counterparty can sign | 22:51 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] oh | 22:51 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] like on the wiki? | 22:51 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contract#Example_7:_Rapidly-adjusted_.28micro.29payments_to_a_pre-determined_party | 22:52 |
| CodeShark | yes - but note that even in this situation failure to cooperate potentially results in funds being tied up until some invalidation expiration time | 22:53 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] right | 22:53 |
| CodeShark | and it still requires reactive measures to ensure funds are not lost | 22:55 |
| phantomcircuit | which is generally fine as long as there is a reasonable window of time in which to act and the action can be outsourced | 22:56 |
| CodeShark | the reason these ideas can work is that cooperation is the equilibrium strategy | 22:57 |
| CodeShark | but that's only because both parties have recourse in the event of lack of cooperation from the other party | 22:58 |
| phantomcircuit | yup | 23:00 |
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| CodeShark | there's an inherent tradeoff between the risk of funds being tied down and the need to react quickly | 23:03 |
| CodeShark | to avoid loss | 23:03 |
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| CodeShark | but it does effectively allow retroactive invalidation (in the equilibrium scenario) | 23:06 |
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| --- Log closed Tue Jul 21 00:00:17 2015 | ||
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