| --- Log opened Fri Jul 24 00:00:20 2015 | ||
| -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 00:12 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 00:23 | |
| -!- p15x_ [~p15x@64.145.91.62] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:25 | |
| -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 00:26 | |
| -!- wyager [~wyager@99-9-209-71.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: wyager] | 00:31 | |
| -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p578EAF05.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:35 | |
| -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has quit [Quit: pgokeeffe] | 00:41 | |
| -!- Mably [56401ec5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.197] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:42 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 00:47 | |
| -!- sturles is now known as Guest68734 | 00:50 | |
| -!- Guest68734 [~sturles@unaffiliated/sturles] has quit [Killed (asimov.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] | 00:50 | |
| -!- sturles_ [~sturles@unaffiliated/sturles] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:50 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:51 | |
| -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:55 | |
| -!- FranzKafka [~FranzKafk@unaffiliated/franzkafka] has quit [] | 00:59 | |
| jonasschnelli | jcorgan: (jonasschnelli: i don't know the exact key path but i do know it is know bip44): You mean it's not bip44? | 01:12 |
|---|---|---|
| jonasschnelli | Yeah. It can't be. | 01:13 |
| -!- bildramer [~bildramer@p5DC8ABC7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Chi mai dell'Erebo fra le caligini, sull'orme d'Ercole e di Piritoo conduce il pié?] | 01:15 | |
| -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@151.41.114.183] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:16 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:20 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@bzq-82-81-4-52.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:28 | |
| -!- LeMiner2 [LeMiner@5ED1AFBF.cm-7-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:38 | |
| -!- LeMiner [LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 01:40 | |
| -!- LeMiner2 is now known as LeMiner | 01:40 | |
| -!- sparetire_ [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has quit [Quit: sparetire_] | 01:46 | |
| -!- b_lumenkraft [~b_lumenkr@unaffiliated/b-lumenkraft/x-4457406] has quit [Quit: b_lumenkraft] | 01:47 | |
| -!- p15x [~p15x@111.193.168.85] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:55 | |
| -!- FranzKafka [~FranzKafk@unaffiliated/franzkafka] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:56 | |
| -!- p15 [~p15@111.193.168.85] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:56 | |
| -!- FranzKafka [~FranzKafk@unaffiliated/franzkafka] has quit [Client Quit] | 01:57 | |
| -!- p15x_ [~p15x@64.145.91.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 01:57 | |
| -!- c-cex-yuriy [uid76808@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xtllsayaizrkbbex] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:08 | |
| -!- bildramer [~bildramer@p5DC8ABC7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:13 | |
| -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-28-8.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:14 | |
| -!- bedeho [~bedeho@ti0128a400-3195.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 02:15 | |
| -!- michagogo [uid14316@wikia/Michagogo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:15 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@bzq-82-81-4-52.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 02:16 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@bzq-82-81-4-52.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:22 | |
| -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@91.176.95.206] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:30 | |
| -!- trixisowned [~skdsfhshf@173.44.55.155] has left #bitcoin-wizards ["Leaving"] | 02:30 | |
| -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xodkuwzuznibsika] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:33 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 02:33 | |
| -!- p15x [~p15x@111.193.168.85] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 02:35 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:37 | |
| -!- p15_ [~p15@111.193.183.3] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:38 | |
| -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.4] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:38 | |
| -!- p15 [~p15@111.193.168.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 02:39 | |
| -!- tromp__ [~tromp@ool-18be0b4d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:43 | |
| -!- tromp__ [~tromp@ool-18be0b4d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 02:48 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 02:50 | |
| -!- p15_ [~p15@111.193.183.3] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] | 02:52 | |
| -!- p15 [~p15@111.193.171.204] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:53 | |
| -!- huseby [~huseby@unaffiliated/huseby] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 02:55 | |
| -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@altcoins.are-on-my.ignorelist.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 02:55 | |
| -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@altcoins.are-on-my.ignorelist.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:56 | |
| -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 02:56 | |
| -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.10] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:56 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@bzq-82-81-4-52.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 02:57 | |
| -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@151.41.114.183] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 03:02 | |
| -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@adsl-ull-183-114.41-151.net24.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:06 | |
| -!- Aquentin [~Aquentin@unaffiliated/aquentin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:08 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@178.197.231.232] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:13 | |
| -!- CoinMuncher1 [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:16 | |
| -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 03:17 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:18 | |
| -!- Yeeeeeees [~Yeeees@87-198-49-21.ptr.magnet.ie] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:20 | |
| -!- Yeeeeeees [~Yeeees@87-198-49-21.ptr.magnet.ie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 03:21 | |
| -!- Yeeeeeees [~Yeeees@87-198-49-21.ptr.magnet.ie] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:21 | |
| Yeeeeeees | I am bored of exchanging BTC to USD with high fees.. | 03:22 |
| Yeeeeeees | I am giving away free bitcoins to everyone. Just put your address and click "withdraw". | 03:22 |
| Yeeeeeees | When you see money in your wallet please click the ads in my site. | 03:22 |
| Yeeeeeees | Link: http://tiny.cc/btcgiveaway .. Maximum payout is $80. | 03:22 |
| -!- Yeeeeeees [~Yeeees@87-198-49-21.ptr.magnet.ie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 03:23 | |
| -!- huseby [~huseby@unaffiliated/huseby] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:26 | |
| nsh | don't advertise here, thanks. | 03:36 |
| -!- jtimon [~quassel@200.Red-79-148-174.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:40 | |
| -!- p15 [~p15@111.193.171.204] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 03:47 | |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@174.97.245.31] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:54 | |
| * waxwing wonders if this might be literally the worst place on the internet to advertise a bitcoin scam | 04:01 | |
| -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-28-8.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 04:02 | |
| -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-28-8.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:03 | |
| -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-28-8.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 04:04 | |
| -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-28-8.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:04 | |
| -!- davi [~davi@gnu/davi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:13 | |
| -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@174.97.245.31] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:15 | |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@174.97.245.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 04:18 | |
| -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@174.97.245.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 04:25 | |
| -!- airbreather [~AirBreath@d149-67-99-43.nap.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 04:28 | |
| -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:33 | |
| -!- davi [~davi@gnu/davi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 04:36 | |
| -!- airbreather [~AirBreath@d149-67-99-43.nap.wideopenwest.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:40 | |
| -!- Aquentin [~Aquentin@unaffiliated/aquentin] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 04:40 | |
| -!- nabu [~nabu@179.43.174.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 04:41 | |
| -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@adsl-ull-183-114.41-151.net24.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 04:43 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 04:44 | |
| -!- Tebbo [~Jerry`@ip72-211-88-176.no.no.cox.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:45 | |
| -!- davi [~davi@gnu/davi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:47 | |
| -!- p15x_ [~p15x@64.145.91.70] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:54 | |
| -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 04:56 | |
| -!- davi [~davi@gnu/davi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 05:00 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 05:14 | |
| -!- hashtagg [~hashtagg_@174.97.245.31] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 05:24 | |
| -!- p15x [~p15x@114.244.153.155] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:35 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:36 | |
| -!- p15x_ [~p15x@64.145.91.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 05:37 | |
| -!- Mably [56401ec5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 05:39 | |
| -!- narwh4l [~michael@unaffiliated/thesnark] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:39 | |
| -!- narwh4l is now known as thesnark | 05:39 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@178.197.231.232] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 05:43 | |
| -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 05:44 | |
| lmatteis | is there an algorithm that takes a specific amount of time to compute, and can't be made quicker/slower with more CPU? | 05:46 |
| nsh | sure, there's the algorithm which hashes tomorrow's new york post frontpage article headline | 05:49 |
| lmatteis | hrm interesting | 05:50 |
| lmatteis | how about hashing the a future epoch time | 05:50 |
| lmatteis | which is not known now? lol | 05:50 |
| * lmatteis doesn't know how time works | 05:50 | |
| nsh | no-one knows how time works | 05:51 |
| lmatteis | isn't there like an epoch number, which is not known know, but only gets to us when time comes? | 05:51 |
| lmatteis | hrm | 05:51 |
| nsh | no | 05:52 |
| lmatteis | how about measuring stars exact position | 05:52 |
| lmatteis | hrm | 05:52 |
| lmatteis | like we can't really predict the stars position with *complete* accuracy (i believe) | 05:53 |
| nsh | if there were cryptographic beacon satellites, we could envision a cryptosystem whereby you can protect something with information that will only become extant at some roughly-exact future conjunction | 05:53 |
| nsh | but we don't have those, as far as i know | 05:53 |
| nsh | the stars don't do much that can't be simulated | 05:53 |
| nsh | maybe pulsars, but i think they're pretty predictable too | 05:53 |
| lmatteis | no but they can be checked | 05:53 |
| lmatteis | one sec | 05:53 |
| nsh | you may be failing to appreciate how little it matters that you can check something at a certain time if someone can simulate the conditions sooner | 05:53 |
| lmatteis | but they can't predict the exact position 100% accurately | 05:54 |
| lmatteis | so ok imagine this | 05:54 |
| lmatteis | a block is mined every 10 mins, and it is mined based on the position of a star | 05:54 |
| lmatteis | which is hashed with the block | 05:54 |
| lmatteis | people only accept blocks where the position of that star is accurate at that time | 05:54 |
| nsh | and then what? | 05:56 |
| lmatteis | well you have consensus on a chain without energy consumption | 05:56 |
| lmatteis | i think :) | 05:56 |
| -!- hearn [~mike@9.231.197.178.dynamic.wless.zhbmb00p-cgnat.res.cust.swisscom.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:56 | |
| lmatteis | obviously to check the exact position of stars we'd need telescopes or something | 05:57 |
| lmatteis | but that can still be decentralized | 05:57 |
| lmatteis | (anybody can buy a telescope) | 05:57 |
| lmatteis | is what i'm saying sensible ? | 05:58 |
| -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@nj-71-0-106-66.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:58 | |
| lmatteis | to rewrite history of the chain you'd have to disagree with the star's path | 06:00 |
| lmatteis | let's call it Proof-of-Star lol | 06:01 |
| lmatteis | also interesting properties stars have | 06:01 |
| lmatteis | (or other objects) | 06:01 |
| lmatteis | miners can predict the stars position every 10 minutes | 06:02 |
| lmatteis | the one who got closer, wins the block | 06:02 |
| lmatteis | although that wouldn't work maybe | 06:02 |
| -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:02 | |
| lmatteis | hrm i dunno i'm just rambling maybe | 06:02 |
| -!- bedeho [~bedeho@ti0128a400-3195.bb.online.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:03 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:03 | |
| lmatteis | but anyway, my initial idea was that if we find something that always takes say 10 minutes to compute, to rewrite history one would have redo the time - so instead of being "work" based, it is "time" based | 06:03 |
| -!- Mably [56401ec5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.197] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:04 | |
| lmatteis | nsh: you can simulate stars position sooner yes, but stars position are such a decentralized witnessing event that it would be hard to reach consensus on a chain that contains wrong star coordinates | 06:06 |
| lmatteis | although there would be no real way to independently prove the validity of the chain without a telescope | 06:07 |
| lmatteis | (unlike bitcoin, where all you need is the chain itself) | 06:07 |
| lmatteis | but it's still cool that the validity can happen "independently" no? | 06:08 |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@bzq-125-168-31-73.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:11 | |
| -!- StephenM347 [~stephenm3@static-64-223-246-218.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:18 | |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@174.97.245.31] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:22 | |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@174.97.245.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 06:26 | |
| -!- p15x [~p15x@114.244.153.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 06:30 | |
| bsm117532 | lmatteis: you want a trusted cryptographic timestamp server: https://tsa.safecreative.org/ | 06:36 |
| bsm117532 | And you're back to a trustful system. | 06:36 |
| lmatteis | yeah | 06:37 |
| bsm117532 | If you want something unpredictable, you have to use quantum mechanics. There are numerous physical RNG devices. | 06:37 |
| -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-28-8.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [] | 06:37 | |
| bsm117532 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_random_number_generator | 06:38 |
| bsm117532 | But again, you're stuck trusting the entity with the timestamp server or centralized hardware RNG | 06:38 |
| -!- bedeho [~bedeho@ti0128a400-3195.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 06:39 | |
| -!- hearn_ [~mike@185.25.95.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:41 | |
| lmatteis | bsm117532: right but my point was about a star's path. it's an event anybody can witness and verify. if a blockchain hashed the position of a star at specific intervals, that would be an interesting way to reach consensus | 06:42 |
| lmatteis | there's still the problem, as nsh said, to verify whether past blocks actually contain valid coordinates of the star (one could just lie about past coordinates) | 06:43 |
| lmatteis | but given the magnitude of the event - anybody can record the path's position - it would be hard to lie about it | 06:43 |
| -!- hearn [~mike@9.231.197.178.dynamic.wless.zhbmb00p-cgnat.res.cust.swisscom.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 06:44 | |
| -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@115.Red-88-20-136.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:44 | |
| bsm117532 | It's predictable. | 06:47 |
| lmatteis | as far as i've read, not to extreme accuracy as measurements | 06:47 |
| bsm117532 | Doesn't matter. It's also not observable to extreme accuracy. | 06:48 |
| lmatteis | it can be measured to an extreme accuracy for all people on earth | 06:49 |
| lmatteis | and even if it's predicted | 06:50 |
| lmatteis | one can still pull out their telescope, and see that the star hasn't arrived at that predicted spot yet | 06:50 |
| bsm117532 | If it's predictable I can falsify future records. | 06:50 |
| lmatteis | no | 06:50 |
| lmatteis | as i just explained | 06:50 |
| bsm117532 | I'm not sure what you're getting at. | 06:50 |
| lmatteis | if you send me a block that contains a coordinate of the star in the future | 06:50 |
| bsm117532 | Stars move so slowly that this is impractical unless you want to create a block once per millenia | 06:50 |
| lmatteis | as a validating node, i have a telescope and will refute that block because i can see for myself that the star hasn't arrived there yet | 06:51 |
| lmatteis | ok let's imagine something else then | 06:51 |
| lmatteis | maybe planet's paths | 06:51 |
| bsm117532 | NASA has extremely good predictive codes for that. | 06:51 |
| lmatteis | the point i'm trying to make is that these contain pieces of information anybody in the world can independently verify | 06:52 |
| lmatteis | and might be used to achieve consensus | 06:52 |
| bsm117532 | How? | 06:52 |
| lmatteis | bsm117532: it doesn't matter whether you can predict them do you understand? | 06:52 |
| lmatteis | as i just told you: | 06:52 |
| lmatteis | lmatteis> as a validating node, i have a telescope and will refute that block because i can see for myself that the star hasn't arrived there yet | 06:52 |
| bsm117532 | It matters very much that it can't be predicted. | 06:52 |
| bsm117532 | Bitcoin's mining is essentially a RNG. | 06:52 |
| lmatteis | but people can verify that's a *prediction* | 06:52 |
| lmatteis | because they look at the star | 06:53 |
| bsm117532 | I can also verify the next number in the sequence 1,2,3,4,5 is 6. how does that help with consensus? | 06:53 |
| lmatteis | stars/planets/cosmic objects add the concept of *time* to the picture | 06:54 |
| bsm117532 | There are much better ways to measure time. | 06:54 |
| lmatteis | it happens at a specific time, witness-able by anybody on earth. | 06:54 |
| jcorgan | jonasschnelli: sorry, i mistyped, i meant that it wasn't bip44 | 06:55 |
| jonasschnelli | jcorgan: Yeah. Though so. :) | 06:55 |
| bsm117532 | Consensus requires us to select someone to update the ledger. Time doesn't give that to you. | 06:55 |
| kanzure | lmatteis: you can withhold blocks that you have mined. you don't have to relay them. | 06:56 |
| lmatteis | kanzure: what? | 06:56 |
| -!- airbreather [~AirBreath@d149-67-99-43.nap.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 06:56 | |
| kanzure | you don't have to relay a block. therefore you can just generate the sequence ahead-of-time. | 06:56 |
| -!- airbreather [~AirBreath@d149-67-99-43.nap.wideopenwest.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:57 | |
| kanzure | also, i don't think "a star's position" is a good signal of entropy | 06:57 |
| lmatteis | you guys are thinking too bitcoin-alike | 06:57 |
| kanzure | plus, you can just move stars anyway | 06:57 |
| kanzure | lmatteis: what is your goal? | 06:57 |
| lmatteis | you can move stars!? | 06:57 |
| kanzure | ... duh? | 06:58 |
| lmatteis | ok here's the algorithm | 06:58 |
| kanzure | what was your goal, again? | 06:59 |
| -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@adsl-21-81.37-151.net24.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:59 | |
| lmatteis | i look at the star in question with a telescope. record its exact position. then i fill it with transactions and look for an earlier block which contains the coordinates in the past of the star in question. | 07:00 |
| lmatteis | other validate my block because they check for themselves that the star passed by that "coordinate" i recorded | 07:01 |
| lmatteis | now of course other 100 people would be doing the same, with effectively slightly different coordinates | 07:02 |
| lmatteis | (because they measured it at slightly different times) | 07:02 |
| -!- bedeho [~bedeho@ti0128a400-3195.bb.online.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:02 | |
| -!- lomax_ [sid52157@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pdgcqfatmcitogvv] has quit [] | 07:05 | |
| -!- lomax_ [sid52157@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-asudzncbmslhwryi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:05 | |
| lmatteis | yeah i guess it doesn't work | 07:05 |
| lmatteis | :) | 07:05 |
| bsm117532 | And because star motions are slow and extremely linear, every participant can extrapolate the star's position with high accuracy for the next 100 years, and every participant can produce their own set of blocks. You might as well have used 1,2,3,4,5... by the time there's enough variation in a star's position that it becomes unpredictable, 1000 years have passed. | 07:05 |
| lmatteis | yeah i mean, also all the people that recorded a coordinate could broadcast their own block - who's to decide which block to choose? | 07:08 |
| bsm117532 | Exaaaaaactly. That's what mining does, and it's mining that creates consensus. | 07:09 |
| bsm117532 | It's a PRNG that selects the next ledger update. You can use other (centralized, non-byzantine resistant) mechanisms to decide who updates the ledger too. (e.g. round-robin) | 07:10 |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:20 | |
| -!- Artimage [d88b8b32@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.216.139.139.50] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:22 | |
| -!- hearn_ [~mike@185.25.95.132] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 07:23 | |
| -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@2601:645:c001:263a:780d:854e:831e:4324] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:26 | |
| -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@adsl-21-81.37-151.net24.it] has quit [Quit: ttm] | 07:27 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 07:29 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@178.197.231.115] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:33 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@178.197.231.115] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 07:34 | |
| -!- hearn_ [~mike@178.197.231.115] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:34 | |
| -!- shesek [~shesek@IGLD-84-229-153-73.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:35 | |
| -!- gielbier [~giel@dhcp-077-251-148-214.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 07:35 | |
| -!- jps_ [~Jud@198.199.83.156] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:37 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-65-202-91.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 07:38 | |
| -!- jps_ is now known as jps | 07:38 | |
| -!- dasource [uid48409@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pubrkcarotqabyyw] has quit [] | 07:39 | |
| -!- dasource [uid48409@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ypkiwsqogqvrrpvk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:39 | |
| -!- gielbier [~giel@dhcp-077-251-148-214.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:44 | |
| -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@2601:645:c001:263a:780d:854e:831e:4324] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 07:47 | |
| -!- Oizopower [uid19103@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-caxdfgcuennnfmop] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:51 | |
| CoinMuncher1 | lol... nice to see the coin drop, eventually. | 07:59 |
| -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:02 | |
| -!- Xh1pher [~Xh1pher@pD9E3988A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:02 | |
| -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.39.88] has quit [Excess Flood] | 08:03 | |
| -!- catcow [sid62269@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cbcwcbinrnchkcis] has quit [] | 08:05 | |
| -!- catcow [sid62269@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sjzfslknfnjnyoep] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:05 | |
| -!- bedeho [~bedeho@ti0128a400-3195.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 08:05 | |
| -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.39.88] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:07 | |
| -!- Quashie [~boingredd@50.14.92.17] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:08 | |
| -!- ruby32 [~ruby32@38.121.165.30] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:17 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@72.42.70.210] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:31 | |
| -!- davi [~davi@gnu/davi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:41 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:41 | |
| -!- bedeho [~bedeho@ti0128a400-3195.bb.online.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:46 | |
| -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-185-201-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:51 | |
| -!- hearn_ [~mike@178.197.231.115] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 08:52 | |
| -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Quit: Quit] | 08:58 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@178.197.231.26] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:00 | |
| -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@204.14.159.153] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:03 | |
| -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.39.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 09:03 | |
| -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p578EAF05.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 09:04 | |
| -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@204.14.159.153] has quit [Client Quit] | 09:04 | |
| -!- hearn_ [~mike@185.25.95.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:04 | |
| -!- hearn_ [~mike@185.25.95.132] has quit [Client Quit] | 09:05 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@178.197.231.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 09:06 | |
| -!- Guest29364 [~psztorc@ool-4575fa8d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:10 | |
| -!- davi [~davi@gnu/davi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 09:21 | |
| -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 09:31 | |
| -!- davi [~davi@gnu/davi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:36 | |
| -!- stonecoldpat [~a9380004@janus-nat-128-240-225-56.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 09:44 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@bzq-125-168-31-73.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 09:48 | |
| -!- cluckj [~cluckj@pool-108-16-231-242.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 09:50 | |
| -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@91.176.95.206] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 10:01 | |
| -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@91.176.95.206] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:01 | |
| -!- Mably [56401ec5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.197] has quit [Quit: Page closed] | 10:05 | |
| -!- davi [~davi@gnu/davi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 10:15 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@142.252.28.37.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:20 | |
| Eliel | lmatteis: I think the biggest problem with star position is that it's not verifiable after the measurement time without trusting someone. | 10:20 |
| Eliel | also, all participants would need ridiculously (impossibly?) accurate measuring systems to have enough entropy. | 10:22 |
| * Eliel just started wondering about a fractal based PoW algo where the mining process actually compresses the actual transaction data by looking for parts of the actual transaction in the fractal. | 10:31 | |
| Eliel | it'd have a nice property of making transactions take less space as difficulty is increased. | 10:32 |
| -!- digitalmagus [~digitalma@unaffiliated/digitalmagus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:33 | |
| -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:33 | |
| Eliel | ... that is, if it's at all feasible. | 10:33 |
| -!- zooko [~user@72.42.70.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 10:34 | |
| kanzure | Eliel: sounds like a compresison algorithm. | 10:35 |
| Eliel | yep, pretty much | 10:35 |
| -!- zooko [~user@72.42.70.210] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:36 | |
| -!- Oizopower [uid19103@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-caxdfgcuennnfmop] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 10:36 | |
| -!- zooko` [~user@c-71-229-205-98.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:41 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@72.42.70.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 10:43 | |
| -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:45 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@142.252.28.37.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 10:50 | |
| CoinMuncher1 | Eliel sounds cool, but when is the compression "done" ? The first one that reaches some percentage? | 10:54 |
| -!- digitalmagus8 [~digitalma@unaffiliated/digitalmagus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:55 | |
| -!- digitalmagus [~digitalma@unaffiliated/digitalmagus] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 10:55 | |
| CoinMuncher1 | And what's to prevent a miner from putting some easily compressable transactions in the block? | 10:56 |
| -!- zooko` [~user@c-71-229-205-98.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has left #bitcoin-wizards ["#tahoe-lafs"] | 10:57 | |
| Eliel | CoinMuncher1: I see you realized why the percentage is problematic. I don't have an alternative to propose, so that's why I'm wondering if it's feasible at all. | 10:59 |
| CoinMuncher1 | Well, it's one of those PoW-alternatives that has crossed my mind sometime too, but I never put more though into it than this, so just saying. | 11:00 |
| Eliel | although, it wouldn't be a problem because miners could put those in blocks. It'd be a problem because then the difficulty would be hard to tune. | 11:01 |
| CoinMuncher1 | Yeah think so too. Would be cool to give it a try sometime though. Not necessarily as a PoW alternative, but in general. | 11:03 |
| tromp_ | new motto for cuckoo cycle: 1 memory bank + 1 virtual core = 1 vote | 11:07 |
| Eliel | tromp_: what does the virtual core mean in that? | 11:09 |
| tromp_ | if you turn on hyperthreading on intel cpus, then a core that's waiting for memory can switch to another thread | 11:09 |
| tromp_ | some sparc cpus can do that at even larger factors than 2 | 11:10 |
| Eliel | ah right, I think I read about a CPU that had 4 instruction queues that did that with 4 threads at once. | 11:10 |
| tromp_ | so virtual core is like threads that can have simultaneous outstanding memory read requests | 11:11 |
| Eliel | so, cuckoo cycle favours processors with lots of virtual cores. | 11:11 |
| tromp_ | oh yes | 11:11 |
| tromp_ | the more the merrier | 11:12 |
| tromp_ | up to the point where you saturate all your memory banks | 11:12 |
| tromp_ | which is why it wldnt run well on gpus | 11:13 |
| -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.23.38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:13 | |
| Eliel | because gpus are bad at random access? | 11:13 |
| tromp_ | bad at random *global* memory access | 11:13 |
| Eliel | I suppose the optimal system for cuckoo cycle would have the processor run at about the same frequency as the memory. | 11:15 |
| tromp_ | memory freq only relevant for sequential access | 11:16 |
| tromp_ | memory banks have long latency when they need to switch rows | 11:16 |
| Eliel | although, you could get by with a pretty small instruction set for the processor cores. | 11:16 |
| tromp_ | doesn't take a fast core to keep up with that (by generating rnd address from siphash) | 11:17 |
| Eliel | is there any consideration for forcing the inevitable ASICs to at least be general purpose? | 11:17 |
| tromp_ | dram is the asic for cuckoo cycle | 11:18 |
| Eliel | I think it's inevitable that someone will make a chip with both memory and barely good enough CPU on the same chip. | 11:18 |
| tromp_ | custom memories for cuckoo cycle are expected to be too expensive to be economically competitive | 11:19 |
| tromp_ | eg. look at static ram, 10x faster, but 100x more expensive | 11:20 |
| tromp_ | and that's not even custom | 11:21 |
| Eliel | I'm not very familiar with the technical limitations, but it sounds likely that we'll see a commodity chip that's CPU + memory on one chip sooner or later. | 11:21 |
| tromp_ | we already have many caches on cpus:) | 11:22 |
| -!- stonecoldpat [~a9380004@janus-nat-128-240-225-56.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:22 | |
| Eliel | true, the caches are big enough in themselves that people would've drooled on the chips for just that in 1990s. | 11:23 |
| tromp_ | putting 1GB DRAM on a cpu chip is not gonna make random access much faster | 11:23 |
| -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 11:36 | |
| -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:40 | |
| -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] | 11:40 | |
| -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:45 | |
| -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:46 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:47 | |
| -!- digitalmagus [~digitalma@unaffiliated/digitalmagus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:48 | |
| -!- digitalmagus8 [~digitalma@unaffiliated/digitalmagus] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 11:49 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@198.199.83.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 11:52 | |
| -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@91.176.95.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 11:52 | |
| -!- c0rw1n_ [~c0rw1n@91.176.95.206] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:52 | |
| thesnark | Eliel: I have studied fractal addressing in P2P networks. I think that if you implemented that idea properly it would make for a suitable consensus mechanism. | 11:57 |
| -!- c0rw1n_ is now known as c0rw1n | 11:57 | |
| Eliel | thesnark: do you think it'd also achieve the secondary goal and actually compress the blockchain? | 11:58 |
| thesnark | Eliel: it's a long shot, but yes | 12:00 |
| thesnark | I could see that working actually | 12:00 |
| -!- digitalmagus [~digitalma@unaffiliated/digitalmagus] has quit [] | 12:02 | |
| -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:09 | |
| -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 12:11 | |
| -!- tromp__ [~tromp@ool-18be0b4d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:15 | |
| -!- www [~v3@p50895834.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:16 | |
| www | is there an implementation for BIP47 (reusable payment codes) already? | 12:17 |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-98-55.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:19 | |
| -!- tromp__ [~tromp@ool-18be0b4d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 12:20 | |
| -!- gielbier [~giel@dhcp-077-251-148-214.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 12:40 | |
| -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit [] | 12:42 | |
| -!- www [~v3@p50895834.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 12:50 | |
| -!- gielbier [~giel@dhcp-077-251-148-214.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:50 | |
| -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:51 | |
| -!- mountaingoat [~mountaing@unaffiliated/mountaingoat] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 12:52 | |
| -!- Artimage [d88b8b32@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.216.139.139.50] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] | 12:53 | |
| -!- sparetire_ [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:56 | |
| -!- mountaingoat [~mountaing@unaffiliated/mountaingoat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:01 | |
| -!- www [~v3@p50895834.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:01 | |
| -!- cluckj [~cluckj@pool-108-16-231-242.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:03 | |
| -!- MrTratta [~MrTratta@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 13:15 | |
| -!- MrTratta [~MrTratta@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:16 | |
| -!- gielbier [~giel@dhcp-077-251-148-214.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 13:17 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Quit: Quitte] | 13:24 | |
| -!- antgreen [~user@CPE687f74122463-CM84948c2e0610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:27 | |
| -!- Xh1pher [~Xh1pher@pD9E3988A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 13:29 | |
| -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.23.38] has quit [Excess Flood] | 13:33 | |
| -!- c-cex-yuriy [uid76808@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xtllsayaizrkbbex] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 13:34 | |
| -!- samsamoa [c04ded5f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.77.237.95] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:37 | |
| -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.23.38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:37 | |
| samsamoa | New here, tell me if I'm in the wrong place. What are the incentives that prevent miners from arbitrarily increasing the block reward? | 13:44 |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-98-55.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 13:44 | |
| -!- Guest29364 [~psztorc@ool-4575fa8d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 13:46 | |
| -!- gielbier [~giel@dhcp-077-251-148-214.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:50 | |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@174.97.245.31] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:51 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 13:51 | |
| -!- koine [~smik@50.248.81.66] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 13:54 | |
| nsh | samsamoa, it would not be accepted by other nodes on the network. the block reward amount is a hardcoded function of the block-height | 13:55 |
| -!- katsik [~kats1k@50.248.81.66] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:56 | |
| samsamoa | nah, I get that a single miner couldn't do this. but could miners increase the block reward by consensus? | 14:02 |
| samsamoa | nsh, just like they could presumably increase the block size by consensus | 14:03 |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@bzq-125-168-31-73.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:05 | |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@174.97.245.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 14:06 | |
| gwillen | samsamoa: they can't exactly do either. Even if all miners together decided to change those hardcoded constraints, other nodes would ignore those blocks | 14:08 |
| gwillen | so e.g. all the exchanges and merchants would just not see the bad blocks being generated by the rebel miners | 14:09 |
| gwillen | (unless they ALSO changed their software to accept the new blocks) | 14:09 |
| -!- bedeho [~bedeho@ti0128a400-3195.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 14:10 | |
| -!- StephenM347 [~stephenm3@static-64-223-246-218.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [] | 14:10 | |
| samsamoa | Is the same thing true about a block size increase, though? | 14:11 |
| samsamoa | gwillen, it sounds like what you're saying is that there's no incentive for non-mining nodes to change their software. But if they knew that most miners would soon change, wouldn't they also want to change? | 14:12 |
| midnightmagic | samsamoa: You should ask this in #bitcoin instead. this isn't really a topic for -wizards | 14:12 |
| gwillen | samsamoa: what midnightmagic says is true | 14:13 |
| gwillen | but also, you're getting into psychology and game theory now | 14:13 |
| gwillen | which is interesting but fuzzy -- the technical facts are what they are, but what people will _do_ is complicated. | 14:14 |
| samsamoa | yeah, the game theory aspect is what interests me. thanks, all - I'll take this to #bitcoin. | 14:16 |
| * gwillen nodnod | 14:16 | |
| -!- www [~v3@p50895834.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 14:18 | |
| -!- bedeho [~bedeho@ti0128a400-3195.bb.online.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:30 | |
| go1111111 | i think I figured out how to modify Rusty's lightning network modification, so that it still doesn't need a malleability fix but also is outsourcable. | 14:36 |
| go1111111 | malleability is a problem because in the traditional LN setup, the anchor transaction is symmetric.. each person contributes some funds to it, so each person can be harmed if the other person modifies the anchor transaction's hash | 14:36 |
| -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 14:37 | |
| go1111111 | so, a fix: only one person funds the anchor transaction, and that person is responsible for broadcasting it.. once it's accepted, the other person opens a one-way payment channel to that person to pay them for half the initial funding amount, while the initial person simultaneously credits them in the lightning channel that was created. would that work? | 14:38 |
| gwillen | go1111111: how do you manage the 'simultaneous' credit such that neither party can rip the other off unilaterally? | 14:39 |
| go1111111 | gwillen: because both payment channels are micropayment channels. i send you 1 cent worth of value on the LN channel, and you send me 1 cents worth of value on the simple payment channel. repeat. | 14:40 |
| go1111111 | if you stop you can steal one cent from me, yes | 14:41 |
| gwillen | hmm ok, that's not crazy | 14:41 |
| go1111111 | the simple payment channel will expire, leaving a non-expiring LN channel that is half funded by both people | 14:41 |
| gwillen | albeit requires a lot of of overhead | 14:41 |
| gwillen | in terms of transmitting microtransactions | 14:41 |
| -!- stonecoldpat [~a9380004@janus-nat-128-240-225-56.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 14:41 | |
| gwillen | it seems like if only one person funds the anchor transaction, then the other person's funds in the channel will never be safe, though | 14:42 |
| gwillen | but without a diagram it's hard for me to be sure | 14:42 |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:43 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Client Quit] | 14:44 | |
| go1111111 | the other person will have copies of transactions that give them some of the initial person's funds. they'll always be able to post these to the network before the anchor funder can withdraw all their funds bc of how LN works now | 14:44 |
| -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:47 | |
| -!- bedeho [~bedeho@ti0128a400-3195.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 14:52 | |
| -!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:52 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@142.252.28.37.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:53 | |
| go1111111 | Actually the other person will have just one transaction -- his copy of the commit transaction. He'll also have revocation preimages from earlier copies of the funder's commit transaction | 14:55 |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@142.252.28.37.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 14:59 | |
| roasbeef | go1111111: perhaps you should post that in #lightning-dev ? | 14:59 |
| -!- Guest20077 [~user@5ec3233a.skybroadband.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 15:00 | |
| go1111111 | didn't know that existed, but will do. thanks. | 15:01 |
| -!- www [~v3@p50895834.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:04 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 15:13 | |
| -!- CoinMuncher1 [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 15:17 | |
| -!- www1 [~v3@p50896035.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:25 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@x55b284d8.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:26 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@x55b284d8.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Changing host] | 15:26 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:26 | |
| -!- www [~v3@p50895834.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 15:27 | |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@174.97.245.31] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:32 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 15:41 | |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@174.97.245.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 15:42 | |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@174.97.245.31] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:43 | |
| -!- thesnark [~michael@unaffiliated/thesnark] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 15:44 | |
| -!- Apocalyptic [~Apocalypt@unaffiliated/apocalyptic] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 15:51 | |
| -!- tromp__ [~tromp@ool-18be0b4d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:00 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@142.252.28.37.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:00 | |
| -!- RedEmerald [~bwstitt@unaffiliated/redemerald] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:03 | |
| -!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 16:04 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@142.252.28.37.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 16:06 | |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@174.97.245.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 16:06 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@bzq-125-168-31-73.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 16:06 | |
| -!- samsamoa [c04ded5f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.77.237.95] has quit [Quit: Page closed] | 16:07 | |
| -!- sausage_factory [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:07 | |
| -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 16:09 | |
| -!- tromp__ [~tromp@ool-18be0b4d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 16:15 | |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@174.97.245.31] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:16 | |
| -!- hashtagg [~hashtagg_@174.97.245.31] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:25 | |
| -!- RedEmerald [~bwstitt@unaffiliated/redemerald] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 16:29 | |
| -!- tromp__ [~tromp@ool-18be0b4d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:40 | |
| -!- www1 [~v3@p50896035.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 16:41 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:42 | |
| -!- ruby32 [~ruby32@38.121.165.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 16:43 | |
| -!- Mably_ [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:46 | |
| -!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:46 | |
| -!- tromp__ [~tromp@ool-18be0b4d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] | 16:47 | |
| -!- Mably_ [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 16:47 | |
| -!- mariorz_ [sid490@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qqijfgyoebqaidyp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:49 | |
| -!- lmatteis_ [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cslclfzqneruktjt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:49 | |
| -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xodkuwzuznibsika] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 16:51 | |
| -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 16:51 | |
| -!- MrTratta [~MrTratta@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 16:51 | |
| -!- mariorz [sid490@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tfwsnuamtpywzbmr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 16:51 | |
| -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 16:51 | |
| -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 16:51 | |
| -!- destiny0 [~destiny@destiny.port0.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 16:51 | |
| -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:51 | |
| -!- MrTratta [~MrTratta@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:52 | |
| -!- lmatteis_ is now known as lmatteis | 16:52 | |
| -!- destiny0 [~destiny@destiny.port0.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:52 | |
| -!- PaulCape_ [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:54 | |
| -!- mariorz_ is now known as mariorz | 16:56 | |
| -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 16:57 | |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@174.97.245.31] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 16:59 | |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@174.97.245.31] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:00 | |
| -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@174.97.245.31] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:05 | |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@174.97.245.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 17:06 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 17:23 | |
| -!- tromp__ [~tromp@ool-18be0b4d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:25 | |
| -!- freewil [~freewil@unaffiliated/freewil] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:26 | |
| -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 17:33 | |
| -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@nj-71-0-106-66.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 17:50 | |
| -!- LeMiner [LeMiner@5ED1AFBF.cm-7-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 17:50 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:10 | |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@174.97.245.31] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:12 | |
| -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@174.97.245.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 18:15 | |
| -!- www [~v3@p50896035.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:17 | |
| -!- freewil [~freewil@unaffiliated/freewil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 18:19 | |
| -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@174.97.245.31] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:22 | |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@174.97.245.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 18:24 | |
| -!- bedeho [~bedeho@ti0128a400-3195.bb.online.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:26 | |
| -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:27 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 18:34 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:792f:6eb6:b214:2c76] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:34 | |
| -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-185-201-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 18:36 | |
| -!- Quashie_ [~boingredd@50.14.92.17] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:46 | |
| -!- bedeho [~bedeho@ti0128a400-3195.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 18:48 | |
| -!- Quashie [~boingredd@50.14.92.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 18:49 | |
| -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cslclfzqneruktjt] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 18:49 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Disconnected by services] | 18:50 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@x4d08d792.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:50 | |
| -!- roybadam1 [~roy@darla.gnomon.org.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 18:51 | |
| -!- sausage_factory [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 18:57 | |
| -!- roybadami [~roy@93.93.131.22] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:58 | |
| -!- airbreather [~AirBreath@d149-67-99-43.nap.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 19:03 | |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@174.97.245.31] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:18 | |
| -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@174.97.245.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 19:19 | |
| -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Quit: Quit] | 19:20 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 19:54 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:01 | |
| -!- Tebbo` [~Jerry`@ip72-211-88-176.no.no.cox.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:05 | |
| -!- airbreather [~AirBreath@d149-67-99-43.nap.wideopenwest.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:06 | |
| -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 20:07 | |
| -!- Tebbo [~Jerry`@ip72-211-88-176.no.no.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 20:07 | |
| -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:08 | |
| -!- PaulCape_ [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [Quit: .] | 20:15 | |
| -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:15 | |
| -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-28-8.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:17 | |
| -!- Tebbo [~Jerry`@ip72-211-88-176.no.no.cox.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:30 | |
| -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.69] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:31 | |
| -!- Tebbo` [~Jerry`@ip72-211-88-176.no.no.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 20:31 | |
| -!- Tebbo [~Jerry`@ip72-211-88-176.no.no.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 21:10 | |
| -!- Tebbo` [~Jerry`@ip72-211-88-176.no.no.cox.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:10 | |
| -!- LeMiner [LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:18 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@2601:281:8301:e87f:31a0:45b9:7490:bf0c] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:21 | |
| -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:21 | |
| -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] | 21:22 | |
| -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:23 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:792f:6eb6:b214:2c76] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 21:24 | |
| -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@115.249.69.37] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:32 | |
| -!- p15x_ [~p15x@64.145.91.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:39 | |
| -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 21:40 | |
| -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-28-8.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [] | 21:44 | |
| -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-28-8.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:46 | |
| -!- hashtagg [~hashtagg_@174.97.245.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 22:11 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:14 | |
| -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:14 | |
| -!- Xh1pher [~Xh1pher@pD9E3988A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:16 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@2601:281:8301:e87f:31a0:45b9:7490:bf0c] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 22:21 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:32 | |
| -!- afdudley [~afdudley@166.84.136.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 22:36 | |
| -!- afdudley [~afdudley@166.84.136.68] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:36 | |
| -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:47 | |
| -!- Quashie_ [~boingredd@50.14.92.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 22:48 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 22:52 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 22:56 | |
| -!- bedeho [~bedeho@ti0128a400-3195.bb.online.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:01 | |
| -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.23.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 23:02 | |
| -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 23:05 | |
| -!- www [~v3@p50896035.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 23:08 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@bzq-125-168-31-73.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:09 | |
| -!- www [~v3@p50896035.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:13 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@bzq-125-168-31-73.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 23:26 | |
| -!- tromp__ [~tromp@ool-18be0b4d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 23:28 | |
| -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 23:38 | |
| -!- LeMiner2 [LeMiner@5ED1AFBF.cm-7-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:47 | |
| -!- LeMiner [LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 23:49 | |
| -!- LeMiner2 is now known as LeMiner | 23:49 | |
| -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:50 | |
| --- Log closed Sat Jul 25 00:00:21 2015 | ||
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!