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| stonecoldpat | hi, has anyone got a record of the network traffic from the spam attacks a few weeks ago? (e.g. as the node hears the transactions and blocks on the network) | 01:44 |
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| waxwing | kanzure: thanks for the transcription! | 03:48 |
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| kanzure | waxwing: no problem | 06:38 |
| Adlai | you'll never make it to brain-in-a-vat status with such typing skills :P | 06:39 |
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| gmaxwell | Perhaps of interest to some here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3ewhli/bitcoindev_disclosure_consensus_bug_indirectly/ | 11:05 |
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| lmatteis | does anybody here believe that PoS can achieve consensus? or is the concept entirely based on false assumptions? and, does anybody know if there have been done any empirical analysis on its ability to reach consensus (or not)? | 13:09 |
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| kanzure | if the spoofs are indistinguishable then you might as well not even bother with proof-of-stake | 13:25 |
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| lmatteis | kanzure: what do you mean "spoofs? | 13:28 |
| kanzure | fakes | 13:29 |
| lmatteis | fakes what | 13:30 |
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| kanzure | no not the verb | 13:32 |
| lmatteis | you're missing the subject | 13:32 |
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| kanzure | history. we're talking about history consensus. | 13:34 |
| kanzure | so in this context it would be fake histories. | 13:34 |
| kanzure | just like all the other times. | 13:34 |
| lmatteis | which other times??!? | 13:34 |
| lmatteis | sorry i have no idea what you're talking about | 13:35 |
| kanzure | please read the logs (all of them) | 13:35 |
| lmatteis | thanks but no thanks :) | 13:37 |
| fluffypony | lmatteis: the broken record thing is really unappealing. I'm sorry there isn't a Wikipedia-style byte-sized entry explaining this stuff, but if you can't intuit the failure then you either need to accept that others have thought it through and found it lacking, or you need to read the logs | 13:38 |
| fluffypony | demanding that someone else do the work for you (read and summarise the logs) is pathetic, stop being lazy. | 13:38 |
| lmatteis | ugh, joining #math for some articles explaining how specific proofs were done, doesn't usually backlash with a "do the proof yourself and stop being pathetic" | 13:39 |
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| fluffypony | lmatteis: no, you're asking for why it *doesn't* work, not contrariwise | 13:40 |
| lmatteis | "reach consensus (or not)" | 13:40 |
| fluffypony | the onus should be on the PoS proponents to prove that it does, under whatever cryptographic model they choose | 13:41 |
| lmatteis | i just asked whether anybody believe it could work or not | 13:42 |
| lmatteis | why are you guys so defensive about PoS | 13:42 |
| lmatteis | it's a chat room afterall | 13:42 |
| lmatteis | let's chat | 13:42 |
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| fluffypony | lmatteis: it's not defensive, it's just an unnecessary badgering on topics that have already been thrashed out | 13:43 |
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| kanzure | it's wrong to claim that anybody is being defensive | 13:44 |
| kanzure | and also, it's sort of trollish to claim that anyone has called you pathetic | 13:44 |
| fluffypony | kanzure: I did | 13:44 |
| kanzure | whoops | 13:45 |
| lmatteis | lol | 13:45 |
| kanzure | okay, no you said the demand is pathetic | 13:46 |
| fluffypony | yesh | 13:46 |
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| lmatteis | ok so i was thinking, something that is hard to generate but easy to verify right? | 13:51 |
| lmatteis | (pos unrelated) | 13:51 |
| lmatteis | doesn't star-hunting (or meteor hunting) have those properties? | 13:51 |
| justanotheruser | Identifying a troll does | 13:53 |
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| Taek | unrelated: has anyone given ethereum a serious review since their last iteration? | 13:56 |
| Taek | I believe that the protocol has been more or less finalized for several months now | 13:56 |
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| lmatteis | Taek: careful you risk being called pathetic and to read the logs | 13:57 |
| Taek | lmatteis: I've read (minus a few server outages) pretty much every line in this channel for the past 15 months | 13:57 |
| Taek | and if people don't want to talk about ethereum, they just won't respond to my question | 13:58 |
| lmatteis | justanotheruser: i seriously think astronomy might help (stars location, predictable information of their behavior, etc..) might help with decentralized consensus | 14:00 |
| lmatteis | not sure exactly how though :) like for example stars have the cool property that anybody in the world can measure | 14:00 |
| lmatteis | sort of like a map anybody can look at, trustless | 14:00 |
| lmatteis | i was thinkering about the idea of people predicting planets *exact* position. closest to the correct answer wins the block | 14:02 |
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| Taek | “In the beginner’s mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert’s there are few” | 14:03 |
| justanotheruser | lmatteis: these ideas are fundamentally flawed because you need a central authority to tell you the actual position and by extension the winner, also it isn't costly to make trillions of predictions, and isn't sybil resistance. Read the papers on bitcoin.ninja | 14:03 |
| justanotheruser | *resistant | 14:03 |
| lmatteis | hrm anybody could get a telescope no? | 14:05 |
| kanzure | didn't we talk about this the other day? | 14:07 |
| justanotheruser | There are so many problems with this idea, beyond the two I mentioned. Block malleability, nothing at stake, ... You should read the bitcoin white paper, alts.pdf, pos.pdf at the very least | 14:07 |
| kanzure | i think you asked this same question the other day | 14:07 |
| kanzure | our answers haven't changed since then :-) | 14:07 |
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| lmatteis | justanotheruser: right but "thinking outside the box" usually entails not cementing yourself around the idea that consensus is only doable when there's something valuable that needs to be burned (something at stake) | 14:11 |
| justanotheruser | Correct, I have cemented myself around the idea that breaking consensus is costly | 14:12 |
| justanotheruser | or at least it should be | 14:12 |
| lmatteis | why? | 14:13 |
| fluffypony | why should breaking consensus be costly? | 14:14 |
| fluffypony | is that a question you're for serious asking? | 14:15 |
| lmatteis | the why is referred to "why are you cemented in that line of thinking" | 14:16 |
| lmatteis | fluffypony: read the logs | 14:16 |
| fluffypony | sighbiscuits. | 14:17 |
| fluffypony | Taek: nothing much has changed, it's still layered complexity to solve the fundamental problems - maybe it'll even go until it's worth something, at which point it becomes worthwhile for an attacker to abuse the broken fundamentals | 14:18 |
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| sl01 | is this ridiculously slow disk? Timing buffered disk reads: 394 MB in 3.02 seconds = 130.29 MB/sec | 14:21 |
| sl01 | ugh sorry, wrong window | 14:21 |
| fluffypony | lol | 14:22 |
| lmatteis | for example, imagine needing to triangulate the position of a satellite in such a way that requires literally many different "observants" spread around the globe. the more the users observing, the more precise the triangulation. every 10 minutes the most accurate observation is hashed and everybody moves on the next triangulation | 14:23 |
| lmatteis | one cannot redo a block because it would require all the observers from the earlier round | 14:23 |
| lmatteis | see where i'm going? | 14:23 |
| justanotheruser | yes and it's not to bitcoin.ninja :( | 14:23 |
| fluffypony | lmatteis: now imagine that I sponsor 500 sock-puppet observers and give them $50 each to lie | 14:24 |
| fluffypony | where is your consensus now? | 14:24 |
| jcorgan | and who decides the most accurate observation? | 14:24 |
| belcher | how would someone check the consensus years in the future? | 14:24 |
| fluffypony | you're thinking in generally-trustworthy human terms, lmatteis, you're not thinking adversarially | 14:25 |
| lmatteis | fluffypony: you'd have to pay more observants than there were in that round, yes | 14:25 |
| lmatteis | but yeah | 14:26 |
| lmatteis | it's flawed because one can't check for past observations without a third party i guess | 14:26 |
| belcher | so what are the advantages of it? it still sounds like a proof of work | 14:27 |
| lmatteis | there's no work | 14:27 |
| lmatteis | that's why it's easily faked | 14:27 |
| jcorgan | so anyone could submit an alternative chain without any cost | 14:28 |
| lmatteis | well, the cost is in the amount of geopgrahically dispersed nodes you have? | 14:28 |
| jcorgan | i could just make it all up | 14:29 |
| lmatteis | well the 51% honest nodes would win because they found their position which is different from yours? | 14:31 |
| lmatteis | the idea is that you don't need just "more nodes" for a synil attack | 14:31 |
| lmatteis | you need them geographically dispersed because of triangulation | 14:31 |
| lmatteis | but it's flawed because there's no past record i guess | 14:32 |
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| lmatteis | but you're right, who's to decide what's accurate | 14:34 |
| lmatteis | hrm i guess it's like PoW | 14:34 |
| lmatteis | like if a dishonest node sends you a block with little difficulty compared to another one with more difficulty, you know which to accept | 14:34 |
| lmatteis | here you'd need a way to check which triangulation was more accurate | 14:35 |
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| jcorgan | if you know the past positions, you can make up all the triangulation data | 14:35 |
| lmatteis | make up = tell the network fake info? | 14:37 |
| lmatteis | or, make up = calculate | 14:37 |
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| jcorgan | both. there is no way anyone can look at my chain and say it's not the real one. | 14:39 |
| lmatteis | yeah | 14:40 |
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| jcorgan | proof that work was done by thermodynamic expenditure can't be faked except through even more thermodynamic expenditure, and if that's the case, you win by design | 14:41 |
| lmatteis | right and my idea was that it couldn't be faked except through more geographically placed nodes... but it has obvious flaws | 14:43 |
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| lmatteis | maybe there's a property in nature that can only be calculated if you have many dispersed nodes, and verified with ease by a single node | 14:50 |
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| lmatteis | ah and also needs to leave a trace so that it can be verified in the past :( | 14:52 |
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| --- Log closed Wed Jul 29 00:00:25 2015 | ||
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