2015-08-02.log

--- Log opened Sun Aug 02 00:00:28 2015
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waxwinggmaxwell: isn't that comment by the guy who wants bitcoin to die in a fire ? :)01:34
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gmaxwellStross? who knows-- but they basically also reflect my experience (I hadn't considered any parallels there much before seeing the comment).01:39
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waxwingyes i liked usenet even with the crazies and yes it died because it made no allowances for "normals" .. so far all decentralized things have been like that but hope springs eternal :)01:40
jcorgangmaxwell: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2013/12/why-i-want-bitcoin-to-die-in-a.html01:42
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CodeSharkdunno if it's just me but I find it ironic that we've finally come upon something that is not only rooted in cryptography, but also shows promise in allowing us to create direct economic incentives that can enforce policies on such networks...and rather than trying to fundamentally solve these incentive issues, a bunch of folks are just trying to fill it up with junk02:03
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CodeSharkthanks for bringing this up, gmaxwell02:04
CodeSharkthe parallel is quite stark02:04
CodeSharkdecentralized networks rooted on the good intentions of a minority of users probably can't last very long02:09
CodeSharkwe'll either get a big crunch or a heat death...not an equilibrium state02:12
gmaxwellbitcoin does have more protectie measures in it than usenet did.02:16
CodeSharkinitially the incentives were almost perfect...but as time goes on I fear they only get worse02:17
gmaxwellAt least for the time being. Maybe. So perhaps thats ... something?02:17
CodeSharkif you can't stop people from doing stuff by moderation and censorship, the only approach left is to make it too costly02:18
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CodeSharkor at least that's what it seems like02:19
lmatteisgmaxwell: well my idea for Kudos was to prevent the Usenet spam using scarce tokens that can only be generated via mining02:19
lmatteisbut more than reputation, i was looking into a way of how to make content inside a DHT "stand out"02:22
CodeSharksomething like page rank?02:24
lmatteisfor example, in the bittorrent DHT there's huge amounts of data that is only retrievable if you have the "key" (of the DHT key-value). so you still need the magnet links. the blockchain, and the scarce tokens it generates, could be used to rate certain key-value items. so now the blockchain is a tracker, which can't be brought down02:24
lmatteisCodeShark: hrm not really? what do you mean02:25
CodeSharka metric based on how frequently something is referenced by others02:26
CodeSharkand who those others are (recursively)02:26
lmatteiswell the DHT is not really a graph like the web02:26
CodeSharkright - I'm thinking more like a DAG02:26
lmatteisCodeShark: so you mean you'd crawl the Web for that?02:26
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CodeSharkno, just thinking abstractly02:27
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lmatteisah, right. but then you still have spammers in the DAG, referencing content thousands of times to make them more relavant02:27
lmatteis(and increase their page rank)02:27
CodeSharkright - but if there's a cost to referencing perhaps it can limit the potential for attacks02:28
CodeSharkor a cost to something02:28
CodeSharkhaven't really thought it through :p02:28
CodeSharkif it's free to create zillions of identities that all say "this is great" it obviously won't work02:29
lmatteisright, and that's why i looked into scarce tokens via blockchain02:29
lmatteisobvious problem is that one can only upvote (or give a token to someone) for as many tokens i have. so if i have 5 tokens, i can only upvote 5 times :/02:33
lmatteisbut maybe that's a good thing. users would be incentivized to post relevant content and get more points they can use02:33
CodeSharkyou need to build "reputation" by putting up the cost to generate something scarce...or by getting others to vouch for you02:33
CodeSharkit's really looking like it comes down to economics02:34
CodeSharkinfonomics :p02:34
lmatteisright02:35
lmatteisbut anyway, marrying a blockchain with bittorrent's DHT seems like an interesting exercise02:36
lmatteisto get rid of the tracker/search-engine (PirateBay) point of failure02:36
CodeSharkbedeho is trying to do that with joystream02:36
CodeSharkand I think there are another couple projects along those lines02:36
lmatteisah cool02:36
lmatteisjoystream is more for paying seeding. my thinking was more for content discovery (or torrent discovery)02:37
CodeSharkright - that's true. but the key thing is the exploration of blockchain + DHT...the use cases will follow02:39
CodeSharkthe ability to incorporate cryptographic settlement guarantees into the protocols themselves...powerful concept02:42
jcorganup/down votes do need to be scarce to have value.  Gallagher (comedian) promoted the idea that everyone be give five darts per month to be shot at cars of those who drive like assholes. Those who had five darts on their car would be forbidden to drive until the next month.  Funny, but only because it reflects the idea of scarcity in opinionating on others.02:46
CodeSharkheh02:47
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CodeSharkso you could either stick the keys directly into a censorship-resistant database with an intrinsic scarce token (i.e. a blockchain)...or you might just directly request such keys from a bunch of peers and pay the peers that give you good ones...or...hmmm....02:56
CodeSharksince it costs something to request stuff (even if it's a tiny amount per request) this will naturally limit spam03:01
CodeSharkyou could also have a peer discovery mechanism based on this03:02
lmatteisalso there's a problem that up/down voting is different from transacting currency: usually in social voting you shoul only want to upvote content once. with money transfer, you're not limited to this03:02
lmatteisi was thinking of combating this with what i call "universal constant amounts". so the network only accepts transactions of a fixed value. so you can only send 1 token to a peer, and also a constant fee (of also say 1 token)03:03
lmatteisthis would also make impractical the use of these tokens for economical use - i don't want points to be exchanged for money03:05
CodeSharkso you want them to be nontransferrable?03:06
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CodeSharkother than via specific transaction types that are highly restricted?03:06
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lmatteisno i do, but in limited amounts (or constant amounts)03:06
lmatteisi need to make voting somewhat expensive (as in with a constant fee) or else someone can just create n addresses and make their own content relevant by just transferring large amounts of tokens (simulating upvotes) to each of their addresses03:07
CodeSharkbut don't you end up with a sybil problem again?03:07
lmatteiswith constant fees, they'll eventually run out of points by doing this03:07
CodeSharktransferring large amounts of tokens between addresses you own will cost you something, though03:08
CodeSharkpresumably there are other participants in the network that might also take fees for things like message routing and what not03:08
CodeSharkin the case of bitcoin, fees go nondeterministically to some miner03:09
CodeSharkin the case of ripple, some tokens are destroyed03:09
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lmatteisyeah. so fees would go back into circulation03:10
lmatteisjust like bitcoin. but i don't want users to send like 50 tokens to a post. and that's why i have constant fees. so to send 50 tokens he'd need to break it into 50 transactions (each sending 1 token, if 1 is the constant amount)03:11
CodeSharkhmm, so it forces a more proportional fee to the value rather than the size of the transaction03:11
CodeSharkyeah, that's an interesting point03:12
lmatteisalso, it would incentivize people to not reuse addresses (if you want a single address with lots of points, and therefore build a reputation)03:13
CodeSharkyeah, to incentivize that you need to make one address with reputation 2 worth more than two addresses with reputation 103:14
CodeSharkor something like that03:14
CodeSharkbut there could be some centralization tendencies in this03:15
CodeSharka small number of addresses accruing disproportionately large amount of influence03:15
CodeSharkso there needs to be some balance03:16
lmatteisyeah, and in fact i need to stress that it's just a number03:17
lmatteisit's not really reputation, it's just a number you have that allows you to give numbers to other people and make content relevant in the DHT03:17
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lmatteisbut i guess it could tend to be used as reputation. also because the proof of things you said is inside the blockchain, so that could have interesting outcomes03:17
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lmatteisbut anyway, there's also disproportional amounts happening in systems like Reddit or Stackoverflow03:18
lmatteismost first stackoverflow users have unproportional large reputation points03:19
lmatteisbecause back then it was just easier to get points03:19
CodeSharkright - the amount of points available for distribution should be related to the number of users on the system...or something03:20
CodeSharkhmmm03:21
CodeSharkthere's probably someone somewhere that's researched this far more than I have :p03:21
CodeSharkbut you might be right - these tokens might have significantly different properties than a typical currency03:23
CodeSharkfor starters, they don't seem very fungible03:24
CodeSharkone good source is worth far more than a thousand extremely crappy ones03:25
CodeSharkthe value is not additive03:26
CodeSharkin fact, extremely crappy sources might even have negative value03:27
CodeSharkthey only clutter up your searche03:27
CodeShark*searches03:27
CodeSharkreddit has more than its share of this problem :p03:29
CodeSharkalso, two good sources together might be worth more than the sum of their parts03:32
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lmatteisthere's also the thing where there's no incentive for mining other than gaining points, which i guess enough people would still do03:33
lmatteisbut there's also less incentive to gain more power to fork the chain... it's not money afterall03:33
lmatteisit's just quite different. you also don't care about how fast the tokens will arrive03:34
lmatteisand there's really no double-spending problem, since you're not sending tokens and awaiting for delivery of a physical good03:34
lmatteisbut the system still needs to reach a consensus somewhat03:34
CodeSharkright - there still is a double-spending problem03:35
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CodeSharkit's not like someone gets cheated...but more like the system needs to agree where the tokens went03:36
CodeSharkI think we might be trying to reinvent economics :p03:42
CodeSharkit's clear that currencies don't always accurately reflect value...and it seems that markets can only price commodities to any accurate degree...all other pricing really comes down to pulling numbers out of a hat :p03:44
lmatteisi guess, i'm really bad with economics :)03:45
lmatteisi just want points to rank shit :D03:45
CodeSharkisn't that how google started?03:47
CodeSharkare we talking about decentralized search engines?03:47
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CodeSharkanyhow, this is too hard to figure out in one night...gotta go rest03:50
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lmatteis:) gnight03:53
fluffyponyjcorgan: that article gave me brain damage just reading it04:04
jcorganthe one by stross?  yeah, was a bit disappointed by someone i otherwise respected04:05
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dgenr8matteis: you put a date in your paper.  that's not smart because then people can figure out when you wrote it.06:31
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lmatteisdgenr8: and why's that a bad thing?11:42
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dgenr8lmatteis: so you have confidence that your ideas matter, even if they don't pass filters for being either a) new or b) time-tested.  interesting!  i looked it over.  my question is who will mine it?12:10
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lmatteisdgenr8: well it's still a draft so i think having a date is important. once (and if) i get it published, it won't have a date on it anymore12:17
lmatteisdgenr8: whoever wants to earn points will mine it12:17
lmatteisdgenr8: but since it isn't money, the amount of money isn't as important as crypto currencies12:22
lmatteis*the amount of mining12:22
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dgenr8lmatteis: who gets the pointbase points?  how many are there / will there be?12:25
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dgenr8lmatteis: fwiw, i think not dating papers is ridiculous.12:26
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lmatteisdgenr8: that's an implementation detail. i guess you can make it similar to bitcoin (50 tokens released for each block)12:27
lmatteisthe halving may not be necessary12:28
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lmatteisdgenr8: ah lol :)12:28
dgenr8everybody will want to make blocks.  how is it decided?  also implementation detail?12:29
lmatteissame as bitcoin with proof of work12:30
lmatteisi was studying how perhaps a proof-of-stake may be used for this, but it doesn't seem to be useful for reaching consensus12:30
dgenr8what's interesting to me, is that something similar can be used to scale bitcoin itself.  store and index the tx details in something like a DHT.  This idea totally distinct from saying "blindly replace the network and the blockchain with a DHT".12:34
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dgenr8there is a discussion here where phantomcircuit gave me a good grilling on it (search 'beefnode')12:36
lmatteisyou mean to save space?12:38
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justanotheruserdgenr8: blockchain sharding seems like it would make more sense than storing it in a DHT12:46
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benjamindees A Decaying Block Size Limit Growth Rate13:16
benjamindeeshttps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1140876.013:16
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gmaxwellon the usenet subject, a good reminder of the education that was previously required there: http://www.exit109.com/~jeremy/news/misplacedbin.html13:35
bramcgmaxwell, The 'voting' system for usenet newsgroups was profoundly ineffective and stupid13:41
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jcorganthe tribal knowledge gained during the building of a thing doesn't always transfer well to those for whom that thing has always been around.  seems about 25-30 years is all that is needed.13:43
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kanzure"scale" is ambiguous, too many competing definitions14:03
kanzurethe word should be tabooed14:03
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jcorgantaboos don't scale14:10
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frankenmintis there a good, general programming chat room?16:04
frankenmintI'm trying to build up to the like of you folk here16:05
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jcorganread other people's code, a *lot*16:14
gmaxwellfrankenmint: almost nothing discussed in chat rooms helps you become a better programmer; chat room banter is mostly (thought not entirely) limited to the least interesting subjects (due to social reasons). jcorgan gave you the real answer.16:18
frankenmintandroid deployment is FAST you guys - apple took 8 days, this took literally 1 hour16:19
frankenminthttps://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.honeybadgerofmoney.sts.bitcointrivia16:19
frankenmintI wont bring it up anymore...just excited to have it made and out there16:20
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kanzuregmaxwell: on the contrary, everything i know about subtle c programming i learned by being yelled at over irc16:49
frankenmintgmaxwell: Luke-Jr says btc needs more unit testing? is this the same thing as test cases (embarrassed to ask but necessary to now)16:57
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kanzurefrankenmint: unit tests are test cases that isolate very specific chunks of code, without requiring outside libraries or network connectivity etc19:03
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Taekfrankenmint: the best lessons I learned about programming generally came from people doing stubborn code reviews20:55
Taekbut also lots of value from reading "premium" code20:56
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morphiscreatorSo I've heard that the NSA pays GMaxWell to act so homosexual and moronic, in order to disrupt the dev community.21:37
morphiscreatorwe should ban him before it hurts bitcoin even more21:38
morphiscreatorit might be hard with fanboys like apocalyptic with their tongue up his ass21:39
phantomcircuit!ops21:39
morphiscreatorpeace. http://morph.is21:40
Apocalypticlolwat21:40
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tripleslashping: Luke-Jr21:45
Luke-Jr?21:45
tripleslashphantomcircuit needed you21:46
tripleslashI was late to the party21:46
tripleslashsorry.21:46
gmaxwellFWIW, morphiscreator's IP previously used by thufir.21:49
opernatorCurious - Is that kind of garbage common around here? Figured I would join the IRC scene to get away from that. ;)21:50
tripleslashEvery medium will have trolls.21:51
Apocalypticgmaxwell, this is consistent with the content of the website he linked21:51
opernatortrue that...21:51
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gmaxwellopernator: not usually; hasn't been a great time for bitcoin-related communities lately.21:59
gmaxwellThat particular person had been punted out of here previously.22:00
opernatorkeep up the good work; trolls gon' troll22:04
midnightmagicand morons gonna more22:04
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CodeSharkclever trolls are at least sometimes amusing...but even among trolls they are a tiny minority22:21
CodeSharkworst of all are those who deeply suffer from Dunning-Kruger syndrome and have a political agenda22:22
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