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| --- Day changed Wed Aug 12 2015 | ||
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| drue | so this is probably stupid, and this may not be the right channel. if either are the case let me know.. | 09:30 |
|---|---|---|
| drue | so regarding block size and cost of running a full node over time - i don't understand why work couldn't be done to allow nodes to have a truncated history | 09:31 |
| fluffypony | drue: pruning is already in there | 09:31 |
| fluffypony | the major cost impact isn't disk space | 09:31 |
| drue | i get that you'd lose transaction history, but couldn't it be summarized in the earliest block or in some manner? | 09:31 |
| fluffypony | it's upstream bandwidth | 09:31 |
| fluffypony | disk space is cheap in every country, but upstream bandwidth is hellishly expensive, even in countries like Germany | 09:32 |
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| drue | ah. isn't that just a function of transaction count, rather than block size? (that is, isn't block size just a function of transaction count too?) | 09:33 |
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| fluffypony | a single transaction can take up tons of space, so definitely not transaction "count" | 09:33 |
| fluffypony | and unless the argument is being made that Bitcoin is hardly used and will have lots of empty blocks inbetween the occasional transaction it's not worth considering | 09:34 |
| jgarzik | byte count | 09:35 |
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| * fluffypony counts his bytes | 09:35 | |
| fluffypony | on that topic, though - Ookla has just canned NetIndex in favour of some lame new site that shows you the "best" ISP in a particular country / area | 09:36 |
| drue | ok.. thanks. just getting up to speed on the discussion and reading the dev list for the last couple weeks. | 09:36 |
| fluffypony | which obviously only has USA right now (sigh) | 09:36 |
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| amiller | would it be useful to generalize the borromean signatures thing to OR-AND-OR-AND... etc. rather than just AND-OR | 13:29 |
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| nsh | how is the former different from the latter, amiller? | 13:37 |
| amiller | well they cover the same "language" (any monotone boolean function) but could have pretty different efficiency | 13:38 |
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| nsh | iirc the current alpha implementation of borromean sigs allows for arbitrary monotone functions by joining rings of AND over vertices of OR. are you suggesting a different topology? | 13:39 |
| AlphaTech | Hello | 13:39 |
| AlphaTech | You wanted me, nah? | 13:40 |
| AlphaTech | *nsh | 13:40 |
| amiller | yeah, i think it generalizes to AND then OR then AND then OR in whatever order | 13:40 |
| amiller | actually they don't even have to alternate layers | 13:40 |
| nsh | hmm | 13:40 |
| amiller | maybe it's obvious they might as well go in layers | 13:41 |
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| amiller | there's a very nice general structure for borromean signatures | 13:45 |
| amiller | er for | 13:45 |
| amiller | generic zero knowledge profos | 13:45 |
| amiller | that includes 'and' composition without increasing the challenge bits because of reusing the challenge, any homorphism involving known order groups, and 'Or' composition too | 13:46 |
| amiller | the clever thing that borromean uses is basicall 'Or' composition of homomorphism proofs without increasing challenge size | 13:47 |
| amiller | but i think it's a good idea that generalizes to Or composition of any proof of this structure, including proofs made from nested Ands and other Ords | 13:48 |
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| nsh | any refs for this general \k strcuture? | 13:51 |
| nsh | *zk | 13:51 |
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| gmaxwell | amiller: the obvious way I tried to generalized it to AND OR AND was not actually signable. I only needed an AND of ORs, and this is technically general already though as you note it's not terribly efficient to represent some circuts that way. | 13:56 |
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| gmaxwell | If you actually are aware of a working generalization, I'd be interested to hear it-- I didn't spend more than a few minutes trying, so I wouldn't be shocked... but do actually confirm that it's actually signable, lest you fall into the trap I fell in. :) | 13:57 |
| gmaxwell | At the bottom of the writeup we mentioned that that generalization would be useful. | 13:58 |
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| -!- Topic for #bitcoin-wizards: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja | 17:56 | |
| -!- Topic set by wumpus [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/wumpus] [Sat Jun 27 01:24:18 2015] | 17:56 | |
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| -!- Irssi: #bitcoin-wizards: Total of 238 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 236 normal] | 17:56 | |
| -!- Channel #bitcoin-wizards created Mon Feb 25 23:24:47 2013 | 17:57 | |
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| amiller | okay so in generalized zero knowledge proofs, there is always a "simulate" function. The simulator takes in a random challenge, and it produces a (commitment, response) pair. | 20:06 |
| amiller | the simulator is essential to the proof that this is zero knowledge and reveals no *computationally useful* information about the secret | 20:06 |
| amiller | In the existing (before the AOS/borromean optimization) generalized-OR proofs, the simulator also tells you what to do for the secrets you *dont* have | 20:08 |
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| amiller | the design constraint here for a sound OR proof is that you have to force one of the commitments to be chosen independent of its challenge | 20:17 |
| amiller | which is done using hash functions, by having the challenge depend on the commitment | 20:17 |
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| amiller | okay so even given those constraints, it's pretty clear from the borromean signatures approach that the existing generic technique is inefficient | 20:19 |
| amiller | the high level idea is that N-1 of the challenges don't have to depend on their commitment (instead the commitment depends on the challenge, because of using "simulate"), but the *sum* of all the challenges has to depend on *all* the commitments, therefore at least one of the challenges has to depend on its commitment | 20:24 |
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| amiller | the high level idea above is the same in borromean and in the existing technique | 20:35 |
| amiller | but the existing technique does all that in the most obvious but dumb way | 20:35 |
| amiller | you generate a random challenge for the N-1 fake statements, then compute the commitment depending on those. Compute the real commitment using the witness. The *total* of the challenges is based on the hash of all the commitments, and so the final challenge is chosen by subtracting all the earlier-chosen challenges from this total... then *all* the challenges have to be included in the proof, which is needlessly inefficient | 20:38 |
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| amiller | Okay so to optimize the generic technique, so that we only have to include one random string in the proof, we only need to "pick" one random value, and then the rest are determined by applying hash functions to commitments and prior challenges | 21:38 |
| amiller | with that whole strategy in mind there's only one way to do it that seems to typecheck | 21:50 |
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