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| CodeShark | I didn't read gmaxwell's suggestion - is it published somewhere or in the logs? | 00:05 |
|---|---|---|
| CodeShark | or could you summarize it in a few sentences? :) | 00:08 |
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| Taek | http://tauchain.org/tauchain.pdf | 03:26 |
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| Taek | "Moreover: we give an ability | 03:27 |
| Taek | to implement Decidable computer programs with RDF, namely DTLC languages | 03:27 |
| Taek | rather Turing Complete ones" | 03:27 |
| Taek | seems like a step in the right direction at least | 03:27 |
| nsh | ugh RDF | 03:27 |
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| nsh | nothing good will ever come out of RDF. the only person to have ever made something vaguely good out of RDF was Aaron Swartz, and he was too young to know better | 03:28 |
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| lmatteis | nsh: not true. check out http://linkeddatafragments.org/ | 04:33 |
| lmatteis | federated querying via HTTP and RDF | 04:33 |
| nsh | hmm | 04:33 |
| nsh | does it require the cooperation of other people? | 04:34 |
| nsh | here's the general all-purpose spoiler for semantic web: it won't work, probably because it requires the cooperaiton of other people | 04:34 |
| nsh | who don't care enough to cooperate | 04:34 |
| nsh | every month since 1994 someone has come up with a genius, workable plan to make data on the web queryable and accessible programmatically, and every month an idea has been a complete failure because people are not going to put the work in to structure things or render structure accessible or stop actively frustrating the use of alternate modalities to access their stuff | 04:36 |
| nsh | people want to control what you see, and how you see it | 04:36 |
| nsh | people suck | 04:36 |
| lmatteis | nsh: well no. it's not p2p. it's client server. cool thing is that as a data provider, you can link your triples to other published datasets. then clients can query both datasets, even if they're stored on different servers, without knowing it, because there's an RDF link. | 04:36 |
| nsh | masturbation :) | 04:37 |
| nsh | where are amazon's triples? ebay's triples? the weather channel's triples? | 04:37 |
| lmatteis | they're right there, on their HTML pages. | 04:37 |
| nsh | right, screen-scraping | 04:38 |
| lmatteis | <span title="My product" type="product"></span> -- that's an RDF triple afterall | 04:38 |
| nsh | the woeful lame substitute for success that people have been bludgeoning at the web for 20 years | 04:38 |
| nsh | :) | 04:38 |
| lmatteis | sure | 04:38 |
| lmatteis | but p2p alternatives aren't working | 04:39 |
| * nsh nods | 04:39 | |
| nsh | we just don't deserve nice things, i believe | 04:39 |
| nsh | so i've stopped trying to imagine a way we might have them | 04:39 |
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| lmatteis | haha ok. i guess that's a nice way of putting it | 04:42 |
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| kanzure | nsh: does micropayments change any of that | 06:41 |
| kanzure | or is it still equally hopeless | 06:41 |
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| nsh | structuralisation incentives or a culture of content presentation that gives it implicitly. unsure if micropayments would help. certainly not in and of themselves | 06:46 |
| nsh | * .. are needed | 06:47 |
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| nsh | i have been optimistic before about a multistakeholder community curated ontology model but it seems much harder to make materialise than content itself (e.g. wikipedia, which is far from perfect without their being direct logical implications for others as a result of editor fiefdoms) | 06:48 |
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| kanzure | why would multiple stakeholders be able to make an ontology when i struggle with just one person making an ontology? bah | 06:50 |
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| nsh | kanzure, well, in theory the same way they consensuated on the corpus of human knowledge and a rough categorisation and association structure to it | 09:23 |
| kanzure | did that happen? | 09:24 |
| nsh | one person doesn't know how everything is organised as well as [some self-selecting sample of] everyone does | 09:26 |
| nsh | (and some magical platform, process, culture and mechanism for self-organisation) | 09:26 |
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| nsh | wikipedia was written and is of appreciable utility throughout the world. it's nothing to scoff at | 09:36 |
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| ebfull | what's the name of the parameter which designates the number of blocks until a coinbase transaction can be spent? | 13:28 |
| ebfull | what's the current thought about the economic and game theoretic consequences of increasing that number substantially, perhaps to target years forward? | 13:29 |
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| Taek | years would be a mistake | 13:33 |
| Taek | Bitcoin is already highly risky | 13:33 |
| Taek | and most miners seem to be in it for relatively short term gains | 13:33 |
| Taek | 3 months would be an interesting experiment, but I don't think that any currency implementing such delay would have an easy time bootstrapping | 13:35 |
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| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] ebfull: coinbasematurity and it's 100; that's more #bitcoin-dev though | 13:35 |
| Taek | I think that the game theory stuff is on topic | 13:35 |
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| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] ok | 13:36 |
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| instagibbs | anything too long and my guess is people would minimize exposure by selling immature coinbase rewards | 14:19 |
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| kanzure | "Incentives to run full nodes" http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-August/010343.html | 14:38 |
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| lmatteis | plot twist: petertodd is satoshi | 14:43 |
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| kanzure | that's not helpful | 14:46 |
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| stevedekorte | a friend of mine just set this service up as a weekend project: http://www.backbxt.com | 16:17 |
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| fluffypony | stevedekorte: you're in the room room for spam. | 16:18 |
| fluffypony | try #bitcoin | 16:18 |
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| stevedekorte | thanks “fluffypony” | 17:28 |
| fluffypony | stevedekorte: no need for inverted commas, this is IRC and having a nom de plume is neither unusual nor inverted-comma-worthy | 17:29 |
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| kanzure | petertodd: including a second merkle tree might cause users to just start using third-party api services when they leave spv. | 18:53 |
| kanzure | or is there a way around that? | 18:53 |
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| gmaxwell | kanzure: what do you mean by leave SPV? | 19:01 |
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| gmaxwell | I think we need to have a little bit of terminology come to jesus. What BitcoinJ implements is an incomplete version of SPV; and somehow that incomplete version has replaced SPV in our parlance (presumably because the complete version doesn't exist, and BitcoinJ does) | 19:03 |
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| gmaxwell | (Electrum's SPV is even more incomplete... but same deal.) | 19:03 |
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| gmaxwell | Go load up and read the bitcoin whitepaper, section 8. Don't just skim or stop reading at the graph. | 19:04 |
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| afk11 | Electrum doesn't even use bloom filters.. can it be called SPV? | 19:06 |
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| gmaxwell | afk11: 0_o. Bloomfilters are "offchain" tech, they're not part of the bitcoin consensus system; and were only added in Bitcoin Core 0.8. Not all nodes even implement them. Thats like saying they don't implement getmempool can they be SPV? :) | 19:08 |
| gmaxwell | If you just mean that they're not very private; in practice they may be more private than normal bitcoinj users because the existing bloomfilter usage is almost completely deanonymizing; and the clients are very promiscious in sharing their filters. Where electrum sends an address list but does it to fewer servers. | 19:10 |
| kanzure | the "security drills" plan was to encourage the use of fully-validating nodes, but using a third-party api seems like a trivial workaround | 19:14 |
| kanzure | from http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-August/010343.html | 19:14 |
| gmaxwell | kanzure: that at least makes their insecurity model transparent to them, they know they're depending on the API. I'm not sure that it matters: they're already largely using the APIs. | 19:15 |
| kanzure | hm alright, out-of-scope for that particular plan then, fair enough | 19:15 |
| gmaxwell | If you go monitor your inbound connections on v4 reachable nodes you'll find that there are very few BitcoinJ nodes connecting-- much less than there used to be. I don't know how much electrum traffic there is. Charitably I hope more things are just using electrum, but from talking to people I suspect a lot of it is APIs. | 19:16 |
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| afk11 | gmaxwell: ah, I see what you mean. SPV proves the tx is included in the merkle branch. how you arrive at that doesn't matter. | 19:17 |
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| gmaxwell | Yea. | 19:19 |
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| gmaxwell | Actually there is a proposal for a comitted bloom filter that would remove most of the privacy and dos attack issues for bloom filters, but they would need a fair bit more bandwidth, alas. | 19:19 |
| gmaxwell | Also one of those things where there is a huge amount of design space available. | 19:20 |
| gmaxwell | The idea is that instead of the client sending a bloom "filter" to the server, each block has a commited bloom "map" that would allow clients to fetch only th blocks (or parts of blocks) that they're interested in. | 19:21 |
| -!- imsaguy is now known as [\\\] | 19:21 | |
| gmaxwell | The resulting maps are smaller than the filters if the client has more addresses than are typicall in a block. (the fact that there is a map once per block vs a filter sent potentially only once hardly matters because the existing filter design gets contanimated quickly and must be reset or it matches everything) | 19:22 |
| afk11 | Hmm, interesting idea. I've wondered if blocktrail,etc could accept filters. there are privacy issues that make filters impractical. (only one result in a long time, or you're requesting everything). but why not? | 19:22 |
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| bramc | Hey everybody | 19:43 |
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| bramc | In response to linking to Satoshi's message, a bunch of people expressed, ahem, skepticism that was actually him, as if it was implausible that bitcoin's original author would say that a lack of full nodes is a real problem. | 19:46 |
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| bramc | The whole thing has me feeling very sour on the bitcoin ecosystem. I find bitcoin fascinating as a crypto project and love working on it, but the broader ecosystem makes me hate humanity | 19:48 |
| bramc | Dumb question: Is bitcoin-XT merge-mineable with bitcoin? My understanding is no. | 19:51 |
| ebfull | i don't think so. at least one side needs to explicitly permit merge-mining to take place. neither XT nor Core permits that, nor could they really | 19:54 |
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| ebfull | everyone here that works really hard on Bitcoin and cryptocurrency does so in the face of seemingly insurmountable problems. there's no shortage of motivation, as far as i can tell | 19:54 |
| zooko | Hiya bramc and ebfull. | 19:54 |
| ebfull | hi zooko | 19:54 |
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| rusty | bramc: it can be nasty, yes. But the bitcoin ecosystem has always had a problem with taking bad news; I think back to MtGox and how the larger community willfully ignored the warning signs. | 19:59 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: I don't see why people are expressing surprise at the message. | 20:01 |
| gmaxwell | It is almost completely consistent with my expectation. In the not that unlikely case that its fake whomever wrote it went to considerable lengths to match style. | 20:02 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: no, though either bitcoin or bitcoin-xt could be changed to make it merge minable. | 20:03 |
| ebfull | not just that, but the opportunity of sending the email from the server. and the choice of when and what to send. wouldn't be surprised if it was satoshi | 20:03 |
| gmaxwell | My position is somewhat biased by an unusual condition, the message changed my thinking on a few things for reasons I don't expect others to understand. | 20:03 |
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| zooko | gmaxwell: want to give us a chance to fail at that? :-) | 20:05 |
| zooko | I'm curious. | 20:05 |
| gmaxwell | (basically the point that hard forks are _normally_ hardforks even for spv clients; but the specific structure of this combined with the current security inadequacy of existing SPV clients means that they don't need to be upgraded; and that this is bad for system governance, because it greatly amplifies the overly consolidated miners ability to change policy unilaterally) | 20:05 |
| zooko | Hm. | 20:06 |
| midnightmagic | bramc: The comments in general and in specific about "declaring" it a failure does not, to me, match his old tone. | 20:06 |
| TD-Linux | I thought we had software for this! | 20:06 |
| gmaxwell | I have no clue if even the author was thinking the same thing as me there, but when he wrote "Nearly everyone has to agree on a change, and they have to do it without being forced or pressured into it." this clicked for me. | 20:06 |
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| midnightmagic | TD-Linux: we do, and the authors admit that while it is the best-known-to-the-public stylometric tool that exists, it can be trivially fooled by simply asking the participants fool it. | 20:08 |
| midnightmagic | TD-Linux: (but i like your joke) | 20:08 |
| gmaxwell | midnightmagic: When matching style you can't match the parts that were new. Assume for a moment that the message is legit, the author had never in the past believed that the system was in an impending risk of failure. Why would you have previously expected intense language like that? bleh. I hate even discussing this because I don't think it's possible to give the topic just coverage without sou | 20:11 |
| gmaxwell | ndling like I'm strongly arguing that its real. | 20:12 |
| gmaxwell | And I would say my position is probably weak it's real, strong it doesn't matter if its real or not. | 20:12 |
| gmaxwell | I do think it's kind of halarious to see pepole argue that its fake for trivially falsifyable reasons, but then not update to increase their confidence that it's real when they're corrected. | 20:13 |
| gmaxwell | E.g. people on reddit cited the following halarious example as reasons why it wasn't real: Used a commonwealth spelling, that it used two spaces after a period, that it said it wasn't aware of pooled mining, that it wasn't signed with that pgp key, and that it used that particular domain instead of GMX. | 20:15 |
| gmaxwell | halariously, these are all _well know_ characteristics someone might look for in the real thing, exactly the opposite of what quite a few people were arguing. | 20:15 |
| gmaxwell | Commedy this could couldn't be created in fiction, no one would believe it. :) | 20:15 |
| TD-Linux | unfortunately I think reddit has turned from "hilarious" to "sad" recently | 20:19 |
| [\\\] | +1 | 20:21 |
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| bramc | gmaxwell, Yes it passes the literary forensics test of 'is very insightful about bitcoin'. I noticed his comment about how the lack of incentive for full nodes, which wasn't a problem in the past. That particular form of literary forensics isn't readily accessible to most people. | 20:30 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, The moon landing footage is obviously fake! Look how bizarre the gravel looks flying off the wheels of the car! | 20:30 |
| bramc | That is an interesting point about SPV, in that it doesn't force the system as a whole to be using the correct protocol, which running full nodes does. | 20:31 |
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| bramc | ebfull, There is a fair amount of good development resources put into Bitcoin, but there are many people put off by the ugliness of the core and the scaminess of the whole thing generally. | 20:33 |
| moa | bramc: he said nodes not "full nodes" | 20:33 |
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| bramc | moa, I think he meant full nodes. He also might not be using the latest vernacular. | 20:34 |
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| bramc | If bitcoin's market cap were in the millions instead of billions, there would be a lot less bad juju working on it. A lot less pay too, unfortunately. | 20:35 |
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