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| kanzure | i am also going to be attending | 06:16 |
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| Guest89869 | Hello | 07:08 |
| Guest89869 | anyone there? | 07:09 |
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| kanzure | has there been a "hashcash pseduonyms" proposal before? | 07:49 |
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| ThomasV | kanzure: what would that be? | 08:09 |
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| fluffypony | well that didn't take long: https://blog.ethereum.org/2015/08/20/security-alert-consensus-issue/ | 08:44 |
| * fluffypony wonders what happened | 08:44 | |
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| stonecoldpat | anyone attending the virtual currency workshop in london next week ? | 08:57 |
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| morcos | everyone thats attending scalingbitcoin.org I think it would be helpful if you helped spread the word. we don't have an official attendee list... but if you tweet it or something, we could link to that from the front page. I think it would be helpful to get the word out.. The biggest draw is going to be who the rest of the participants are | 08:59 |
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| azariah | fluffypony: the Go client implemented an edge case around contract suicides wrong in the consensus protocol | 09:21 |
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| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] luckily that's the client almost everyone is using | 09:31 |
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| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] it's also the client that basically had get_nonce() uint256 { return 4 } in it's master | 09:33 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] for ecdsa | 09:34 |
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| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] https://github.com/ethereum/go-ethereum/commit/2a4a96475723d27104a04e10876040759aeb1209 | 09:39 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] i guess they just hardcode in the bad fork and move on, like a reverse checkpoint | 09:39 |
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| gmaxwell | " Increase waiting time for eventual block confirmation to 12 hours" I thought they had already recommended 24 hours waiting? | 09:50 |
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| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] gmaxwell: they halved each subsequent 24 hours that went by or something iirc. or maybe it was 72. anyway, the final recommendation was 60 minutes | 09:54 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] with 3x implementations this was bound to happen... and now some people are going to maybe lose their money i guess | 09:55 |
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| jcorgan | http://scholar.google.com/scholar_url?url=https://bitbucket.org/numisight/explorer/downloads/TBC%25202015%2520Transaction%2520Patterns.pdf&hl=en&sa=X&scisig=AAGBfm1lrQ3QyjN6jUokq-IJKUUv9ahoGg&nossl=1&oi=scholaralrt | 09:57 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] don't worry though, it's secure! | 09:57 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] https://blog.ethereum.org/2015/07/07/know-ethereum-secure/ | 09:57 |
| jcorgan | sorry for the long url, couldn't figure out how to strip it down | 09:57 |
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| jcorgan | "A Preliminary Field Guide to Bitcoin Transactions" | 09:58 |
| kanzure | you want https://bitbucket.org/numisight/explorer/downloads/TBC%202015%20Transaction%20Patterns.pdf | 09:58 |
| kanzure | or https://bbuseruploads.s3.amazonaws.com/70395afa-b63d-4e2e-b9ee-652c5d67e973/downloads/341bfcf5-1526-4c25-bc38-be42d26c47cd/TBC%202015%20Transaction%20Patterns.pdf?Signature=azcFXgVGgCeKOMsOVJbp5Moj%2BzQ%3D&Expires | 09:59 |
| kanzure | =1440091605&AWSAccessKeyId=0EMWEFSGA12Z1HF1TZ82&response-content-disposition=attachment%3B%20filename%3D%22TBC%25202015%2520Transaction%2520Patterns.pdf%22 | 09:59 |
| kanzure | gah | 09:59 |
| jcorgan | that works; i tried it earlier and got a dead link | 09:59 |
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| waxwing | bitcoin should be advertised as the fastest squoggle time of any cryptocurrency. 1 sguoggle every millisecond! (there are on average 10,000 squoggles required for confirmation, though) | 09:59 |
| waxwing | 600,000 sorry can't count | 10:00 |
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| waxwing | kanzure: jcorgan interesting doc, thanks! | 10:00 |
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| runeks | If we could write a pure "Bitcoin consensus" function which would return True if a block is valid and False if a block is invalid, would that function depend on any other arguments than 1. the current UTXO set and 2. the block to be verified? | 13:29 |
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| kanzure | so it is only about block validity, and not about consensus? | 13:33 |
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| bramc | fluffypony, unfortunately I'm not surprised | 13:37 |
| fluffypony | runeks: you would require the full blockchain | 13:38 |
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| fluffypony | runeks: several validity decisions (eg. whether a particular feature is active or not) requires parsing of a set of blocks leading up to the one you're verifying in order to ascertain whether X% of miners are on a particular version | 13:39 |
| fluffypony | so no way around it | 13:39 |
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| bramc | In general trying to optimize out downloading the blockchain isn't worth it | 13:48 |
| bramc | Making it so only the utxo set has to be kept in memory is a good idea though. | 13:48 |
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| nsh | gmaxwell, did you see this response to your CT post on modern-crypto in June? https://moderncrypto.org/mail-archive/curves/2015/000539.html | 15:04 |
| nsh | full of triscky maths words so i have nfi what they're on about, but might be interesting | 15:04 |
| nsh | .wik Span program | 15:04 |
| yoleaux | nsh: Sorry, I couldn't find article. | 15:04 |
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| nsh | New Monotone Span Programs from Old -- https://eprint.iacr.org/2004/282.pdf | 15:05 |
| nsh | On Span Programs -- http://www.math.ias.edu/~avi/PUBLICATIONS/MYPAPERS/KW93/proc.pdf | 15:06 |
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| runeks | fluffypony: thanks for that info. I wasn't aware of that. So the pure function would need an additional "chainState" argument, that specifies the relevant information for calculating the consensus rules in effect for the specified block (eg. the block/tx version info for the past 1000 blocks, or whatever info is needed to determine which consensus rule set | 16:07 |
| runeks | is active). | 16:07 |
| fluffypony | runeks: something like that, Jorge Timón is a good person to talk to about this | 16:09 |
| @gwillen | jtimon: ^ | 16:09 |
| -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [-o gwillen] by gwillen | 16:10 | |
| jtimon | runeks I believe #5946 contains the longest branch I ever had on libconsensus, still VerifyBlock wasn't complete not ready for a C API | 16:13 |
| jtimon | #5995 doesn't go that far but proposes a dumb C API for VerifyHeader | 16:13 |
| runeks | fluffypony: As far as I can see, both BIP62 and 34 use block version info from the past 1000 blocks to determine consensus rules. So for that a list of the block versions for the past 1000 blocks would be sufficient. But there may be BIPs that I'm not aware of that introduce more inter-block dependencies. | 16:13 |
| runeks | jtimon: I will check that out | 16:14 |
| jtimon | of course that currently needs a big rebase | 16:15 |
| runeks | jtimon: do you have a link to the code? | 16:18 |
| runeks | Got it: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5946 | 16:22 |
| maaku | runeks: validation needs the contents of the chainstate database, which includes UTXO and headers | 16:22 |
| maaku | casually when we say "UTXO db" we mean all this state | 16:22 |
| runeks | maaku: ok, I see. That makes sense. The headers are of negligible size anyway. | 16:23 |
| maaku | well, depends on the context | 16:24 |
| maaku | proving connectivity could be very expensive | 16:24 |
| jtimon | my plan was to expose the interfaces to these state in libconsensus' (which is stateless) C API by passing function pointers (see https://github.com/jtimon/bitcoin/commit/d850a6bc88dee8afb9fa751daaab62600adcb81c ) | 16:27 |
| runeks | Right. Hmm. Needing all block headers to verify a single block is somewhat unfortunate, now that I think of it. Needing the UTXO set is unavoidable, but needing the 30 MB constant that is all block headers isn't. | 16:27 |
| runeks | jtimon: I've already given up trying to modify Bitcoin Core beforehand. I think we need to start over. | 16:28 |
| jtimon | I actually don't like the concrete CBlockIndexBase and GetPrevIndex() there but you get the idea | 16:28 |
| jtimon | mhmm, not sure I undesrtand | 16:30 |
| runeks | Are there any other BIPs than 62 and 34 which modify consensus rules based on previous block versions? | 16:31 |
| runeks | jtimon: I'm basically just doing this to really understand what is needed to cleanly separate out the consensus function from the rest of the code. | 16:32 |
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| jtimon | runeks: any uncontroversial soft/hardfork (ie bip65, bip68, all blocksize hardfork proposals but bip101, bip99...) | 16:36 |
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| jtimon | although eventually that can be replaced with a simple height check (see #5966 ) | 16:37 |
| jtimon | runeks I don't know what you are doing and I still don't know what you mean by "starting from scratch" | 16:38 |
| runeks | Hmm. I guess a proper implementation would need some sort of BIP specification format, where each BIP is described programmatically: what is required for the BIP to come into effect and what are its changes to the consensus rules. | 16:40 |
| runeks | jtimon: I'm thinking about how to create a Bitcoin implementation with a shorter distance between code and specification. I think Haskell is a good choice for that. | 16:44 |
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| rusty | gmaxwell: regarding your "publish weaker blocks" idea for network compression; I'm considering the bootstrap problem. If you set the "weak block" threshold at 1/20th of the current diff target, it might be a long time before it's useful, especially if miners wait for other miners to jump first. | 17:17 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: wondering if there's a sane way for the network to agree on a target over time, even if it ratchets to 1/20th eventually. | 17:18 |
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| gmaxwell | rusty: sure you just do what p2pool does, target a share rate. (or even a max of of a rate from time and a rate from orphans) | 17:19 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: am looking at p2pool source now... | 17:22 |
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| rusty | gmaxwell: hmm, can't immediately see who sets the target for p2pool. | 17:30 |
| jtimon | runeks: you may want to take a look at https://github.com/haskoin/haskoin (from what I've heard, the main author learned a lot doing it and even found bugs in Bitcoin Core while doing so, but he himself doesn't recommed it as a safe implementation due to the potential for consensus fork bugs) | 17:30 |
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| rusty | gmaxwell: perhaps it's enough to have a tolerance factor of 2. Each node accepts blocks 2x weaker than it would use itself. Then have some handwavy average over the last 100 real blocks and aim for 30 seconds per weak block. | 17:34 |
| gmaxwell | rusty: it starts off at something stupidly low and increases like bitcoin's difficulty does, until it gets to a 30s block. | 17:35 |
| jtimon | runeks: you may want to watch sipa's explanation on why "the implementation is the specification" and the reasons to separate libconsensus: https://youtu.be/l3O4nh79CUU?t=764 | 17:36 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: sure, but there has to be consensus, otherwise you send me a block I consider too weak (and discard), and then you refer to it in your next block... | 17:36 |
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| gmaxwell | rusty: indeed, it can be done without one, but I've not given it much thought. | 17:39 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: I think having a separate threshold for "I'll relay this" vs. "I'll refer to this" works to paper over consensus issues. | 17:40 |
| gmaxwell | rusty: e.g. accept ones that are half as good as the ones you've seen suggest it should be. | 17:40 |
| gmaxwell | but don't relay. | 17:40 |
| gmaxwell | right. | 17:40 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: no, relay, but don't use. | 17:40 |
| gmaxwell | Oh I see. right. | 17:41 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: thanks, I'm happy now. I think this is complementary to IBLT, but far simpler and may get us the bulk of the gains. | 17:41 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: it also seems to allow a new form of SPV mining, for better or worse? | 17:41 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: One concern: not sure that miners will be incentivized to broadcast weak blocks themselves. | 17:42 |
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| jtimon | rusty gmaxwell didn't followed the full conversation but it seems you are talking about some kind of enforced p2pool, am I correct? | 18:06 |
| rusty | jtimon: not quite, but gmaxwell suggested reusing the approach for block transmission. ie. "this block is just like <previous weak block> with following changes". | 18:07 |
| rusty | jtimon: reduces latency for block upload/download and is pretty simple. | 18:07 |
| rusty | jtimon: if you wanted to interpret the cb this could turn into p2pool, I think. | 18:08 |
| jtimon | I don't deeply know p2pool but what you are saying sounds just like the little I know about p2pool | 18:09 |
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| jtimon | oh, I think I see the difference: they're sharing these partial blocks but they don't share the reward of the "full blocks" they find individually | 18:10 |
| rusty | jtimon: yeah, exactly. Though if they want to reward share that'd be up to them, right. | 18:11 |
| jtimon | ok, thanks, yeah I like this a lot, it completely lacks the "uniform mining policy" concerns I have about IBLT | 18:12 |
| rusty | jtimon: no, it has the same issue. If you're mining differently from everyone else, your blocks don't compress at all. | 18:14 |
| rusty | jtimon: and IBLT can be layered on these blocks like anything else, of course. | 18:15 |
| jtimon | but the inter-block synchronizations don't rely on common policy at all, one partial block can be completely different from the previous one and that's fine, no? | 18:15 |
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| rusty | jtimon: sure, but it takes more bandwidth to communicate a completely different block. Exactly like IBLT. | 19:10 |
| jtimon | but if partial block A and partial block B are completely different and final block C is a subset of A + B, we're fine, right? | 19:12 |
| jtimon | I don't know much about IBLT but I'm assuming that whatever is equivalent to those partial blocks...once one is A, the next cannot be B, but rather A + B | 19:14 |
| jtimon | I assume instead of partial blocks IBLT has "synchornization steps" or something of the short | 19:16 |
| jtimon | I mean, maybe even if I'm right it doesn't make much difference in practice | 19:16 |
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| rusty | jtimon: IBLT encodes against the mempool, so the closer a peer's mempool is to block, the smaller it can be. THis encodes against previous weak blocks, which is effectively encoding against the other miners' mempools, so same problem? | 19:21 |
| jtimon | I think I see the hidden assumption I'm making | 19:25 |
| jtimon | with IBLT I have an incentive to make my own mempool similar to other miner's mempools to make "sync steps" (do they have a name?) faster, right? | 19:26 |
| jtimon | rusty: but with quasi-p2pool (does it have a name?) that's not necessarily true | 19:27 |
| jtimon | I could have my own mempool with my own eccentric policy and an auxMempool with transactions I've seen from other miners that I don't want to include in my own block for whatever reason | 19:28 |
| jtimon | maybe IBLT can somehow use 2 mempools as well and then all my "uniform policy" concerns are gone as well | 19:29 |
| jtimon | rusty: does that make sense? | 19:29 |
| rusty | jtimon: ok, if you're "weird-mining", weak blocks is worse for you. When you send out your block, you need to full-encode any txs which haven't been seen in a weak block, right? | 19:31 |
| rusty | jtimon: with IBLT (at least, as I proposed it), it's slightly better if it's in others' mempool, because the encoding is more complex. | 19:32 |
| jtimon | yes, but if I've created a weak block with my "weird mining policy" then all the other miners have seen my transactions (or a subset of it) when I relay my full block | 19:33 |
| rusty | jtimon: first, it says "here's the lower fee-per-byte" threshold. Then it says "but here are the txs which I included despite being below that". That last one is encoded compactly, as ~log2(num-txs-in-mempool) bits. | 19:33 |
| rusty | jtimon: only if you made a weak block, say 5% of hash power. | 19:34 |
| jtimon | 5% or just luck | 19:34 |
| rusty | jtimon: yeah :) | 19:34 |
| rusty | jtimon: but even with 5%, it's probably only got 1/2 the transactions in it you do now. | 19:35 |
| jtimon | but there's also transactions above the fee threshold that I don't want to include, by not including them in my own mempool I'm being penalized in each IBLT sync step | 19:35 |
| rusty | jtimon: oh, sorry, there's also "here's the ones which are over tx threshold, which *aren't* in" | 19:35 |
| rusty | (same encoding style) | 19:36 |
| jtimon | ok, the difficulty target is to produce 1 weak block per 30 seconds, right? (that's where the 5% comes from? [30 seconds = 30% of 10 minutes) | 19:37 |
| rusty | jtimon: yeah, p2pool uses 30 seconds, it seems reasonable as a first guess. | 19:37 |
| jtimon | ok, so in your current IBLT design there's actually 2 mempools: one for synchronizing and the one that I'm going to actually use to produce my own block, correct? | 19:38 |
| jtimon | sorry, 30 seconds = 5% of 10 minutes | 19:38 |
| rusty | jtimon: my simulator only has one mempool, but you're right; there's no real reason for them to be the same. | 19:39 |
| rusty | jtimon: doublespends are the obvious candidate for the second mempool. | 19:39 |
| rusty | jtimon: but any miner doing tx filtering would want them to go into the second mempool, too. | 19:40 |
| jtimon | not just double-spends, anything that other miners want my I don't | 19:40 |
| jtimon | s/my/but | 19:40 |
| rusty | jtimon: yeah... | 19:41 |
| jtimon | ok, and you sync both with the other miners, cool | 19:41 |
| jtimon | if you do that separation all my "uniform policy" concerns are gone | 19:42 |
| jtimon | mhmm, an attack comes to mind...what if I'm not even a miner but I pretend to be so that other miners have to IBLT sync transactions that nobody else wants? | 19:43 |
| jtimon | note that it doesn't apply to quasi-p2pool (seriously let's name this) because you can't prodce weak blocks without hashpower | 19:44 |
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| rusty | jtimon: IBLT is only between peers, it gets re-encoded if necessary. That's OK, because it's fast. | 19:47 |
| rusty | jtimon: you doing a running guestimate on how similar your mempool is to the peer, and set the IBLT size based on that (plus some margin). | 19:48 |
| rusty | jtimon: the IBLT basically gives you a redundant encoding if there are a few missing/extra txs basically. But it only seems about 45% efficient, so you don't want too many... | 19:48 |
| rusty | * 45% result very very preliminary, take as a ballpark! | 19:49 |
| jtimon | ok, then if an incentive for a uniform mempool is unavoidable with IBLT, I defintely prefer quasi-p2pool over IBLT | 19:50 |
| rusty | jtimon: I prefer quasi-p2pool because it has additional side effects, like 0 conf implications and SPV fee estimation (with block order changes), and it's easier to implement :) | 19:51 |
| jtimon | yeah, it's also easier to estimate double-spend risks with that. I remember someone asking about estimating double-spend risks and me answering something along the lines: "p2pool blocks can be an interesting source for data, it would be better if p2pool was somehow enforced among the centralized pools and solo miners" | 19:54 |
| jtimon | but I was wondering if using a mempoolView = myMempool + otherMinersMempool in IBLT could solve my uniform policy concerns (it seems it can't from what you said earlier) | 19:55 |
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| rusty | jtimon: there are several kinds of uniform policy concerns, right? | 20:04 |
| rusty | jtimon: if you (a miner) include a tx nobody else has, any encoding will hurt you. | 20:05 |
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| jtimon | yep, with both approaches | 20:06 |
| rusty | jtimon: if you only include txs which are in mempools, but most not in others blocks (eg, larger priority area than normal, or spam filtering) then weak-blocks hurts you badly, and iblt only hurts you very very marginally (eg. 6000 txs from a 1M tx mempool => 15k) | 20:06 |
| jtimon | but if you don't want to include txs that everyone else want to include IBLT penalizes you but quasi-p2pool doesn't | 20:07 |
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| rusty | jtimon: only if you use a strict subset: if you don't include some of those txs and that leaves room to include others.... | 20:08 |
| rusty | jtimon: then see above... | 20:08 |
| rusty | jtimon: if you only include a subset, quasi-p2pool is great, and iblt costs you *20 bits* per tx you don't include. Say, worse case, 15k. | 20:09 |
| rusty | jtimon: I really tried hard to get the non-uniformity penalty for IBLT down low, and I think I've achieved it to the point that it's noise. | 20:10 |
| rusty | jtimon: (Side node: I'm assuming that we eventually have a canonical block ordering, which makes encoding for both IBLT and quasi-p2pool cheaper). | 20:10 |
| jtimon | it's not a subset not a superset: there will be transactions that I only want to include and txs that everybody wants to include but I don't | 20:18 |
| jtimon | we have 2 cases here: | 20:19 |
| jtimon | 1) transactions that I only want to include | 20:19 |
| jtimon | 2) txs that everybody wants to include but I don't | 20:19 |
| jtimon | 1) seems bad for both quasi-p2pool and IBLT | 20:19 |
| jtimon | 2) is far worse for IBLT than for quasi-p2pool | 20:19 |
| jtimon | did I get it right? | 20:19 |
| rusty | 3) some txs I don't want to include, some I want to add. | 20:25 |
| rusty | and it's not "far" worse.... the cost is log2(txs-in-mempool) * txs-you-want-to-exclude. | 20:27 |
| rusty | (3) is what I'd expect if blocks are full. | 20:27 |
| jtimon | I don't undesrtand 3 | 20:28 |
| rusty | jtimon: say mempool is overflowing. You don't take some txs, so now you can fit others? | 20:28 |
| rusty | jtimon: s/mempool/blocks/ | 20:29 |
| jtimon | yes, that's still 1, no? | 20:29 |
| rusty | It's 1 *and* 2. | 20:29 |
| jtimon | ?? | 20:29 |
| jtimon | let's replace you and me with miner A and B, please | 20:30 |
| rusty | OK :) | 20:30 |
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| jtimon | tx1 would be included by miner A but it doesn't fit, since B exlcluded other txs, tx1 fits in miner B block | 20:30 |
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| jtimon | let's say miner A follows the majoritary policy | 20:31 |
| jtimon | then tx1 is just case 1 for miner B | 20:31 |
| jtimon | what am I missing? | 20:32 |
| rusty | jtimon: Yep. Cost for Qp2POOL == sizeof(tx1). Cost for IBLT ~= 20 *bits*. | 20:32 |
| rusty | jtimon: case 2. Cost for QP == 0 (you just don't include it). Cost for IBLT ~= 20 bits. | 20:34 |
| jtimon | ok, so case 1 for B is worse with qp2pool than for IBLT, but case 2 for B is worse for IBLT than for qp2pool | 20:34 |
| rusty | jtimon: yeah... but 1 is much worse, 2 is marginal. | 20:34 |
| jtimon | I think I get it | 20:34 |
| rusty | jtimon: of course, this is assuming that for IBLT you do the "two mempools" thing. Which I think is sensible. | 20:35 |
| rusty | jtimon: ... but it's not entirely trivial to code this up. | 20:35 |
| jtimon | ok, that makes sense, these conclusions were surprising without the 2 mempool thing | 20:36 |
| jtimon | well, I was much more worried about the policy uniformity than about code complexity, it seems the 2 mempool thing solves my concerns after all | 20:37 |
| jtimon | also, you're the one coding IBLT, it is you who eat the complexity costs, not me, not worried at all ;) | 20:38 |
| jtimon | </bad joke> | 20:38 |
| jtimon | gavinandresen: my "uniform policy" concerns about IBLT are gone, see above | 20:40 |
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| kang_ | Bitcoin can be scaled by changing the behavior of wallets towards deferred transactions using DKG threshold crypto | 23:17 |
| kang_ | If we have an unbroadcasted transaction paying A to B, and A's private key becomes unusable thereafter, then without relaying the transaction, B has the power to show it can claim the coins at address A by relaying this transaction. | 23:17 |
| kang_ | Anyone willing to hear it out? | 23:18 |
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| gmaxwell | kang_: sounds like you're going to reinvent duplex payment channels. | 23:35 |
| gmaxwell | (but sure, go through it!) | 23:35 |
| kang_ | Ah, let me read on duplex payment channels first then. | 23:36 |
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| jtimon | kang_: do you have a link to read about "DKG threshold crypto" | 23:53 |
| jtimon | ? | 23:53 |
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| jtimon | oh, gmaxwell bidirectional payment channels? | 23:55 |
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| --- Log closed Fri Aug 21 00:00:16 2015 | ||
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