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| gmaxwell | https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3iazge/multisig_on_steroids_using_tree_signature/ | 02:56 |
|---|---|---|
| gmaxwell | If a link to that hasn't already been shared. | 02:56 |
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| kanzure | "Due to script’s operation count limitations, this approach works in theory up to a 1-of-4,294,967,296 multisig, although the tree becomes annoyingly large to construct at that point. Up to 1-of-1,000,000 should be doable, though." | 05:44 |
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| runeks | Is there any form of ordering for the transactions in a block? I mean, can a transaction later in the list of transactions be redeemed by a transaction earlier in the list? I assume so, but I want to know. | 09:46 |
| runeks | I'm talking within a single block. | 09:46 |
| Taek | That's a #bitcoin-dev (maybe even #bitcoin) question | 09:49 |
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| runeks | Ok | 10:51 |
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| gmaxwell | runeks: the block creates a total order, and no a later transaction cannot be redeemed by an earlier one. | 11:35 |
| gmaxwell | (and taek was right about #bitcoin :) ) | 11:35 |
| runeks | gmaxwell: thanks. Gmaxwell has spoken, and I know consider the matter settled :) | 11:38 |
| runeks | *now | 11:39 |
| gmaxwell | (this prevens having forcing the verifier to sort the transactions, or having cycles, etc.) | 11:39 |
| runeks | Yeah it totally makes sense. Forced intra-block ordering by txid would also make sense. Respecting redemption order, of course. | 11:42 |
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| nwilcox | runeks: When you say forcing ordering by txid (also constrained by redemption order), are you imagining a canonicalization that strives to ensure a given set of txns can only be encoded one way into a valid block? | 11:44 |
| runeks | nwilcox: I guess so, yes. | 11:44 |
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| kanzure | voting simulation visualizations http://zesty.ca/voting/sim/ | 13:45 |
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| zooko | clear | 13:47 |
| zooko | whoops | 13:47 |
| zooko | That could've been worse. | 13:48 |
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| gmaxwell | kanzure: have you seen the voting power analysis tools/page? | 14:10 |
| gmaxwell | kanzure: http://homepages.warwick.ac.uk/~ecaae/ | 14:10 |
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| gmaxwell | wrt those visulizations, they only work for a small number of dimensions, and there are many voting systems where you can't get the really interesting cases with only a few dimenisons. (e.g. need at least 5 candidates and 11 voters to form a preference cycle in some cases. | 14:11 |
| gmaxwell | pretty cool though. | 14:12 |
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| kanzure | gmaxwell: if anything it just screams "voting is weird don't do it" to me :-/ | 15:48 |
| Adlai | last question from tonight's panel (on the whos whys and wtfs of the silverware drama) was indeed about governance... too bad screaming from the back row "mining incentives are all the governance you'll ever need" would've been a tad impolite | 15:49 |
| gmaxwell | kanzure: yea, blame the brainwashing in modern democracies. "Voting" (as if there was only one kind) is presentual as an unblemished univeral solution to common decision problems. People do so fully aware of the many limitations, because voting has good social satability properties (it has a very high ratio of actual disenfranchisement to feeling of power) | 15:51 |
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| kanzure | wouldn't it be more useful to have people obsessed with ballot creation more than they are obsessed with voting? | 15:53 |
| gmaxwell | People are concerned with that. They're also concerned with control of the voter rolls. | 15:54 |
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| Adlai | that's not fair, some people are better at ballot creation (cleaner/faster handwriting?) than others | 15:55 |
| Adlai | getting fairness out of the way makes the problem much easier, because it absolves the need for democracy theater | 15:55 |
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| kang_ | Democratic voting is broken in that sense. On a free knowledge forum, 'to the moon' memes are sure to get more votes than some in-depth posts due to the span of direct individual influence. But in a ballot, each upvote is money. This can be solved to an extent by weighted importance of votes. Like each science subreddit vote should get more importance than justin bieber subreddit vote, but now the problem is who decides what | 16:02 |
| Adlai | kang_: how do you allocate potential-upvotes... IPs? cookies? PGP WoT?Hashcash? bitcoin burning? birth certificates? | 16:04 |
| gmaxwell | kang_: yes, thats been a principle in some of the closed loop control proposals-- that any 'vote' should have a cost. | 16:04 |
| kang_ | For now people are considering miner's votes as real important, whereas their rationality, aligned by inbuilt economic incentive, is in the near long-term. Miner dont care if bitcoin dies after 2 years. | 16:04 |
| gmaxwell | Unfrotunately giving things a cost also means that money is power. :( | 16:04 |
| Adlai | miners still care that they'll be able to sell their vote-receipts | 16:04 |
| Adlai | this requires bitcoin to maintain value for at least a few... hours? | 16:05 |
| * Adlai suddenly realizes why coinbases should not be spendable right away | 16:05 | |
| belcher | long enough to amortize their equipment | 16:05 |
| Adlai | inb4 coinbase spendability hardfork >_< | 16:06 |
| c0rw1n | um they need to cash out and not crash the rate while doing it | 16:06 |
| Adlai | c0rw1n: yes, "bitcoin to maintain value" is a statement about market liquidity | 16:06 |
| kang_ | gmaxwell: I am not talking about cost to voting in proportion to importance of voter, but in proportion to cost of importance of the subject. | 16:07 |
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| gmaxwell | kang_: one problem is that if you make voting more expensive you exacerbate power imbalances (especially when the vote is over a source of that imbalance), and you also discourage the participation from people without a vested monetary interest. | 16:10 |
| gmaxwell | For example if the vote is to build a coal power plant vs not and have clean, enjoyable air... there is a lot of money behind one side, and the other side is people's hard to value well being, and people who are not as powerful. | 16:11 |
| gmaxwell | Is it right to give the power company more access to the vote? | 16:11 |
| * Adlai has yet to see an electorate not as expensive as the buyer is willing to pay | 16:11 | |
| kang_ | The constitution(satoshi's implementation) is becoming more important than the priciples of the country(satoshi's principle(debatable)). | 16:12 |
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| Adlai | calling the satoshi client a 'constitution' implies that people still read it... | 16:13 |
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| gmaxwell | A constutution only has power to the extent that it gets read and understood; there is no tidy comparison. The Bitcoin rules are somewhere between an informal agreement and a law of nature. | 16:15 |
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| gmaxwell | They're self-enforcing in a way that a constution isn't; but only if people are running nodes of some kind. | 16:15 |
| kang_ | No I am calling '10 minutes' etc parameters as the constitution. Transaction throughput rate is number of blocks per unit time. Can be increased by 1. larger blocks, 2. faster time, 3. Abstraction of transactions. Since 2 is constitution and 3 looks like conflict of interest, for eg sidechains, people think that 1 is the only way | 16:16 |
| kang_ | Why is 10 minutes - the parameter more sacred than blocksize the parameter? | 16:18 |
| Adlai | bitcoin's constitution is self-enforcing only to the extend that the effecting network values self-enforcement | 16:19 |
| gmaxwell | No one is going around saying that changing the interblock expected gap will increase the price of bitcoin. | 16:21 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, im sure there is some fool doing that :/ | 16:22 |
| kang_ | Changing the interblock time will increase the number of transactions accommodated. Point is both parameters are equally sacred. Also, equally important to the algorithm theoretically. Shorter block time means more forks but larger block times mean a headstart to the miner. | 16:24 |
| kanzure | "sacred" | 16:24 |
| nwilcox | Can anyone recommend an analysis of the issues around turning down interblock target time? | 16:24 |
| nwilcox | I'm mainly interested in orphan rate or vulnerabilities to attacks, and less so in the fact that this changes the realtime rate of monetary base growth... | 16:25 |
| kang_ | :) Sacred because touching '10 minutes' is a big no but we assume we are free to play with blocksize, as if it was less imp in the protocol. | 16:25 |
| kanzure | propagation rate, orphaned blocks, various synchronization issues | 16:25 |
| gmaxwell | nwilcox: it increases the base cost for light clients, and below some critical threshold (a multiple of network radius) the network just stops converging (expected reorg length tends to infinity). I don't have a nice closed form analysis but if you run a numerical simulation you see this. | 16:26 |
| kanzure | also the best reference is probably old -wizard logs | 16:26 |
| gmaxwell | 10 minutes isn't magic, and maybe 5 minutes would be just as good(?-- esp if scaling blocksize down to match) but below some point the system will go off the rails. In the real world the network radius isn't constant or easily measurable, so its reasonable to be pretty cautious. | 16:27 |
| gmaxwell | There is the ghost paper (and its follow up the original had more problems) that improves the behavior, though at the cost of greatly amplifying selfish mining. | 16:27 |
| gmaxwell | probably the ghost paper is some of the better general analysis, though they ignore a lot of interesting issues (like incentives problems!) and mostly just focus on the system achieving convergence at all. | 16:28 |
| nwilcox | gmaxwell, kanzure: Thanks. | 16:28 |
| Adlai | kang_: sacredness is in the eye of the worshipper. some parametrs (eg potential M0) are much more easily worshipped than others... the effecting network has edges, and you want maximal agreement on altar shape, for maximal network strength | 16:29 |
| kanzure | Adlai: i recommend tabooing the word "sacred" and "altar". it's not a word that conveys much signal. | 16:29 |
| nwilcox | So there's some lower bound region on time that leads to a qualitative state change (eg: failing to ever converge). | 16:29 |
| nwilcox | -and with block size there's probably also an upper bound range. | 16:29 |
| gmaxwell | I don't think any parameter is actually sacred in the eyes of the users. There are suicide pact elements to bitcoin, but ultimately it's not a suicide pact. | 16:29 |
| * Adlai was not the first to introduce nuclear vocabulary to the region | 16:29 | |
| kang_ | Exactly, so both the parameters should esentially let be and rather everyone should try to think how to abstract the transactions so that more can be accommodated in the current shape. One way of abstraction is definitely sidechains, where multiple transactions are abstracted to 2 tx on bitcoin block | 16:29 |
| nwilcox | It's interesting that turning up block size doesn't immediately impact SPV client costs, right? | 16:30 |
| Adlai | nwilcox: assuming a sufficiently-implemented SPV client, sure. but de facto, it increases response time to getutxo and its equivalents | 16:31 |
| gmaxwell | Lets imagine the most 'sacred' parameter, the supply of coins. Now imagine a future 25 years from now where subsidy is very low, and TX fees are not picking up the slack (e.g. fee market has failed or is insufficient) and the security of the system is failing, the network is being reorged by byzantine attackers with generation old hashpower. Security and usability are evaporating. Something must | 16:31 |
| gmaxwell | be done. | 16:31 |
| gmaxwell | With bitcoin's utility failing, saying you now need to pay fees when you haven't the last 10 years may not be a credible argument. | 16:31 |
| gmaxwell | So what do you do? | 16:31 |
| gmaxwell | Do you introduce signed blocks? | 16:32 |
| gmaxwell | Something else that no one has invented yet? | 16:32 |
| Adlai | wait for more confirmations? | 16:32 |
| Adlai | ie, slow down your own use of the network, without changing its basic function | 16:32 |
| gmaxwell | Adlai: if they have a localized majority no amount of wait is safe. | 16:32 |
| gmaxwell | You could wait 100 blocks and poof. reorged. | 16:32 |
| gmaxwell | or they could constantly reorg the tip so you make no progress. | 16:32 |
| Adlai | guess #2: switch PoW, preferably to one that doubles as utxo queries | 16:33 |
| gmaxwell | There is no promise that these attacks will be expensive-- we see altcoins attacked like this all the time today. | 16:33 |
| Adlai | utxo queries cost, uh, something! | 16:33 |
| gmaxwell | Adlai: but end up with the same situation because the fundimentals haven't changed. | 16:33 |
| nwilcox | Gotta run, but wish I could keep lurking... | 16:33 |
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| kanzure | nwilcox == iwilcox? | 16:34 |
| gmaxwell | Another option is to implement 0.1% inflation to subsidize security ongoing. This is a tax on coins at rest, maybe even lost coins. | 16:34 |
| kanzure | been confused about this | 16:34 |
| gmaxwell | kanzure: no. | 16:34 |
| kanzure | ah! interesting. | 16:34 |
| kanzure | this might explain a few things.... | 16:34 |
| Adlai | another possibility is that by the time this happens, "bitcoin-og" will have lost market share due to negative feedback of lost market share and lost PoW-share... | 16:35 |
| Adlai | ie, for the benefit of a wholly distinct consensus network | 16:35 |
| gmaxwell | Adlai: and if not for the inability to actually achieve a true fixed rate, I would have even argued that it would have been a good initial parameter of the system. | 16:35 |
| kang_ | Ya I had read about this on your alt-ideas page | 16:36 |
| Adlai | so this becomes a question of "should consensus networks doubling as censorship-free broadcast networks tripling as settlement layers incentivize scroogeiness?" | 16:36 |
| Adlai | because once you have any nonzero protocol inflation, you have nonzero spending incentive | 16:36 |
| kanzure | perhaps lightning fees could be used to fund mining in that hypothetical miners-all-died-yo scenario | 16:37 |
| * Adlai suspects the best we can do, today, is "insufficient data for meaningful answer" | 16:37 | |
| kanzure | (for rebootstrapping) | 16:37 |
| * Adlai waits for the day when half the opportunity cost of mining is covered by running a channel rebalancer | 16:38 | |
| Adlai | (with breath unbaited) | 16:38 |
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| kang_ | Just after 4-5 halvenings the network would be producing 0.78 coins per block. Whatever situation you are imagining in 25 years w.r.t mining hashrate, will happen much before that. The market will take care of itself to either adjust the price so that those coins remain of same or more "value" as 25 coins of today OR the market kills the price totally, which requires political initiative to happen because raational spenders | 16:47 |
| * Adlai waits for the arrival of once-we-fork multipools for sha256d, breath *baited* | 16:48 | |
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| Adlai | the beautiful thing about which is plausible deniability for violent fork-triggering. "we only wanted to test on production!" | 16:49 |
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| * Adlai floats a hypothesis: the only way blocksize can increase (noncoercively) is for a miner with sufficient profit margins to willingly produce larger-than-consensus orphans as an unfakable vote | 17:10 | |
| Adlai | this is only +EV when the transaction backlog pushes fees to the point where a couple dozen orphans are worth the future payoff from raising the consensus size limit | 17:11 |
| phantomcircuit | Adlai, that's sort of like the suggestion for flexcap | 17:13 |
| rusty | Adlai: that would seem to have the classic logjam properties that I do the work, we all benefit. | 17:13 |
| phantomcircuit | which is, to produce a larger block you need to commit to producing a block with a lower target (ie harder to produce) | 17:13 |
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| Adlai | phantomcircuit: oh, i like that one | 17:13 |
| phantomcircuit | if you do that you can produce a larger block than the current limit | 17:13 |
| phantomcircuit | that part is actually really easy to implement | 17:14 |
| Adlai | implement, sure. mine on it with hard-earned hardware? let's wait and see... | 17:14 |
| phantomcircuit | but then you want to do things like have the limit be the average of the previous 2016 blocks or something so that they dont have to always do that | 17:14 |
| phantomcircuit | which gets expensive rapidly | 17:14 |
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| Adlai | ... why? why not let game theory develop a practical counterpart? | 17:15 |
| phantomcircuit | Adlai, you cant do a linear trade off otherwise someone with 1% of the mining power sets their target 1000x and waits to get lucky with a block that crashes the entire network | 17:16 |
| Adlai | phantomcircuit: who cares if one miner gets "lucky"? | 17:17 |
| * Adlai wants to see a retargetwindow'sworth of orphaned blocks before raising his defaults | 17:17 | |
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| hazirafel | novv\\\\\\\bb | 17:18 |
| hazirafel | sorry. | 17:18 |
| hazirafel | vv | 17:18 |
| hazirafel | lol | 17:18 |
| Adlai | welcome to #b-w. | 17:19 |
| hazirafel | yay for everyone | 17:19 |
| * Adlai appends his jacktheripper db | 17:19 | |
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| hazirafel | don't kill me for being a bear price concerened bitcoiner . who's gonna pay for shit? | 17:20 |
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| dgenr8 | kang_: satoshi's design is that bitcoin becomes more valuable to offset the gradual lost subsidy. | 17:44 |
| dgenr8 | kang_: the main way to help it become more valuable is to help it be more widely used | 17:44 |
| rusty | dgenr8: no, his suggestion in the original whitepaper was that fees offset subsidy. | 17:44 |
| rusty | dgenr8: otherwise the subsidy wouldn't go to zero. | 17:45 |
| veleiro | who cares what satoshi thinks, think for yourself! do you want a global payments system, or do you want an uncensorable currency? | 17:48 |
| veleiro | what takes place over everything else? | 17:49 |
| c0rw1n | uncensorable global payment currency system ? | 17:56 |
| veleiro | c0rw1n: haha, but you have to ask yourself, which of those are you willing to give up in place of the other? | 17:57 |
| c0rw1n | if it's uncensorable nothing prevents it from being global | 17:57 |
| c0rw1n | so that takes precedence | 17:57 |
| rusty | veleiro: the expectations of users are important, and so it's worth correcting misinterpretations when that's involved. | 17:59 |
| veleiro | rusty: what misinterpretations do you mean? | 18:00 |
| rusty | veleiro: dgenr8's comment I was replying to, which you were indirectly replying to. | 18:01 |
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| livegnik | Serious question: Whatever happened to Satoshi's proposed solution for solving Bitcoin's block size limit issue that lay ahead? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1347.msg15366#msg15366 | 19:12 |
| livegnik | I assume this has probably been discussed. Can anyone here provide me with a link / some thoughts on it? | 19:13 |
| Adlai | livegnik: what kind of pathetic excuse for a solution is that | 19:13 |
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| Adlai | i mean, what kind of pathetic attempt at appeal to authoritarianist excuse for a solution is that | 19:13 |
| livegnik | I don't know, you tell me. | 19:14 |
| Adlai | ok, here's a rough tough off-the-cuff attempt: the economic supermajority of bitcoin ownership has implicitly asserted its acceptance of 1mb-blocksize-bitcoin-economics, and it would violate that social contract to implement the offhand sillyness espoused in that link | 19:17 |
| livegnik | I was thinking that maybe it could be combined with some sort of a curve that gradually grows along with Moore's law, but I'm not much of a coder and couldn't get my question answered elsewhere, therefore I'm coming to you with this. | 19:18 |
| Adlai | "coming to you" would be /msg, this is coming to an entire irc channel. try #bitcoin or pm. | 19:18 |
| livegnik | Ah. The consensus regarding the social contract. Thank you. | 19:18 |
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| dgenr8 | rusty: no worries there. today's fees are already more than the subsidy will be in 2040, with another hundred years to go | 19:54 |
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| kanzure | Adlai: i think you can make arguments much stronger than those about "social contracts" | 20:17 |
| Adlai | go on | 20:17 |
| kanzure | well, quite trivially, that moore's law is not a law | 20:21 |
| kanzure | no need to resort to social contract handwavium | 20:21 |
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| * Adlai mutters something about the "social 'contract'" | 20:25 | |
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| moa | 'social contract' conjures up imagery of 'socially contracted ...." malaise of one type or another | 20:37 |
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| --- Log closed Wed Aug 26 00:00:52 2015 | ||
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