| --- Log opened Tue Sep 01 00:00:57 2015 | ||
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| fluffypony | Eliel: he has a wiki | 00:05 |
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| kanzure | he has irc logs | 00:07 |
| fluffypony | grep -ir "<gmaxwell>" * | grep -i "idea" | 00:07 |
| rabidus | someone should "stream" that :P | 00:07 |
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| Eliel | fluffypony: only 3 hits, one which is your line suggesting the grep command :P | 00:19 |
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| fluffypony | hah hah | 00:22 |
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| stonecoldpat1 | Eliel: dont forget the numerous well-explained reddit posts he makes (one reason I cntl + f nullc on reddit) | 00:49 |
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| gmaxwell | stonecoldpat1: you can mark people as 'friends' and they show up another color. | 00:50 |
| stonecoldpat1 | gmaxwell: ah i didnt know that cheers :) | 00:52 |
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| gmaxwell | apparently my style rubs a bunch of people the wrong way, :( I get a lot of complaints about being conceited or elitist. :( | 00:55 |
| midnightmagic | Don't forget the wiki subpages | 00:55 |
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| Eliel | gmaxwell: anything that gives off the vibe that you think you know better than whoeveer you're talking to is probably enough to trigger that. I think this article is somewhat relevant http://lesswrong.com/lw/kg/expecting_short_inferential_distances/ | 01:10 |
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| gmaxwell | As much as I distrust Yudkowsky writing about sociology (esp evolutionary motivated) I'm sure there is an element of that to some of these communications challenges. | 01:20 |
| gmaxwell | I think we've seen a lot of issues there with bitcoin's rapid growth. For most of 2014/2013 if you were new to bitcoin you were _likely_ learning about it from someone who was only a month before you, because the userbase was growing very ast. | 01:20 |
| gmaxwell | er fast. | 01:20 |
| Eliel | Well, he might not have the whole picture, but the world started making more sense to me after reading his texts and applying the concepts in them. | 01:21 |
| gmaxwell | And we ended up with pretty big cultural gaps where those of us around from earlier don't even speak the same language... on top of the normal background gaps. | 01:21 |
| Eliel | but yes, you're probably correct that there are language problems too | 01:23 |
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| gmaxwell | Eliel: yes, well the thing to keep in mind is that all ideas are tools. Some ideas are better tools than others, an idea doesn't even have to be _correct_ to be a useful tool, so long as you use it prudently. Yudkowsky's work has a high level of opinion to researched substance though, and often it makes domain experts cringe. Sometimes severely. It also happens to resonate well with people, but | 01:24 |
| gmaxwell | thats not correlated with it being actually true (something you should know from his writing. :)) so a grain of salt or six is aways advisable (as with any author too). :) | 01:24 |
| gmaxwell | Well 'language' also in this case can mean the inferrential gaps. "How could the block size have anything to do with security or decenteralization" to quote a prominent CEO, who moments before would have described himself as being well read on the subject. | 01:25 |
| Eliel | ah, yeah, that one is definitely an inferential gap problem right there. | 01:26 |
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| stonecoldpat | the problem in oct 2013 (when I started) was also a lack of learning material apart from a handful of papers and asking questions in IRC/reading code, so I can't imagine many others going through the trouble to explore it that deeply | 01:26 |
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| stonecoldpat | I made jokes to others that the SoK papers were basically what took me a year to learn | 01:27 |
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| stonecoldpat | (and would have been invaluable back then!) | 01:28 |
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| gmaxwell | Yea, we still don't know how to train people on this stuff. SoK helps, but a lot of the best learning has been interactive. | 01:29 |
| gmaxwell | Also people's tolerances for teaching have diminished over time. :( | 01:29 |
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| amiller | i'm pretty sure i wouldn't have gotten into crypto research at all if it weren't for cool ideas and problems i heard about in irc chat | 01:59 |
| amiller | it's also been really useful to scour mailing list posts from decades ago too | 01:59 |
| amiller | i'm really keen to help preserve all the stuff from this era | 02:00 |
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| gmaxwell | I'll break my normal trend of finding the subject irritating, and post the idea that hard limits of any kind rule system are inherently politically unstable. Even when the limit is protecting an important tradeoff or major design consideration, limits themselves are prone to be seen as obstacles independant of their goals; and only by sustained effort does any limit of political important survive | 02:07 |
| gmaxwell | without being set to 0 or infinity. | 02:07 |
| gmaxwell | By this analysis perhaps Bitcoin's coin supply cap is inherently more stable because inflation becomes 0, one of the two stable states I suggest for any 'limit'. | 02:07 |
| gmaxwell | And any of these scale proposals that suggest other fixed preprogramed limits are inherently unstable. | 02:08 |
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| gmaxwell | I wonder if anyone has an examples from orginizational or public policy that contradict that intution? | 02:08 |
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| gmaxwell | Another reason that non-extremal limits are unstable is that they split their support. No matter what the value is, almost no one loves it. People who agree in principle can find plenty of room to disagree about any particular boundary. | 02:11 |
| gmaxwell | This kind of activity is obvious, I think, in things like US immigration policy, and things like enviroment emissions policy whenever they escape the bounds of a boring administrative agency and intersect a political process. | 02:12 |
| Eliel | I suspect a consensus about limits would be easier to reach if it was somehow possible to bill the costs for having higher limits to those who support them. | 02:14 |
| jcorgan | indeed, talk is cheap; opinions tend to be worth the cost of expressing them :-) | 02:16 |
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| gmaxwell | Eliel: well thats why I suggested the difficulty based dynamic sizing. I think it's almost impossible to make progress though while people are conflating scale with scalability, and I think some of that is the shadow of a hard limit. Hard to say. | 02:20 |
| Eliel | gmaxwell: I think flexcap should be combined with one of the time based solutions so that the real limit is the smaller of the two. | 02:26 |
| gmaxwell | Eliel: yes, well ideally what you can do is make it so that the time thing is hopefully never the actual limit; so that it doesn't get attacked. | 02:28 |
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| Eliel | as in, combining BIP101 with flexcap? | 02:28 |
| * gmaxwell refuses to go into the weeds! | 02:29 | |
| gmaxwell | I'd started to write a long respose there, as its easy to get into minutia design. :) harder to think about the more general contours. | 02:30 |
| Eliel | :) | 02:30 |
| Eliel | although, it'd probably be better to not have an absolute upper limit, even a growing one but rather a cost that declines as time passes to increase the limit. | 02:32 |
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| gmaxwell | Yes, well a resistance that goes asymtopic. | 02:39 |
| gmaxwell | May be a lot more poltically stable at least. Also, safer in some sense-- but bad engineering, as you can't reasonably test to the 'limit' of what the software would be demanded to do. | 02:40 |
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| Eliel | true, but at least it will result in a system where you can pretty accurately predict the actual limits. | 02:41 |
| gmaxwell | yea, but safty is not about the average case, its about the 0.0001% of edge cases. :) | 02:42 |
| Eliel | would it not be good enough? | 02:45 |
| gmaxwell | well that depends, if someone can profitably push a system into an edge case, a one in a billion 'chance' is not very secure! | 02:46 |
| gmaxwell | it's happen with probablity 1. | 02:47 |
| Eliel | hmmh... looking at the growth of average block size for the last 3 years, it looks like even BIP101 would halve the speed of growth. | 03:05 |
| gmaxwell | Eliel: thats meaningless-- in the sense that block size growth has been almost exclosively controlled by the soft limiting settings since late 2012, and has perfectly filled whatever was available, also I think you're actually not measuring the average. | 03:08 |
| gmaxwell | http://ozlabs.org/~rusty/diagrams/blocksize-pretty.svg < 6 hour rolling average. | 03:09 |
| Eliel | I was looking at this https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-block-size?showDataPoints=false&show_header=true&daysAverageString=30×pan=all&scale=1&address= | 03:09 |
| gmaxwell | http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=498 < related post. | 03:10 |
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| Ylbam | hi petertodd, I'm reading your tree-chains preliminary summary http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04388.html | 08:22 |
| Ylbam | I'm a bit difficult understanding this: | 08:23 |
| Ylbam | We now have three different versions of the TXO set: ∑a, ∑a + ∑b, and | 08:23 |
| Ylbam | ∑a+∑c. Each of these versions is consistent in that for a given txoutid | 08:23 |
| Ylbam | prefix we can achieve consensus over the contents of the TXO set. | 08:23 |
| Ylbam | could someone explain please? | 08:23 |
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| Ylbam | are tree-chains still being worked on by petertodd? haven't found any recent article about it | 08:52 |
| Ylbam | only cited in some recent block size papers | 08:52 |
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| kanzure | can the trustless properties of lightning network-style payment channels be applied across merged-mined chain boundaries? or does that lose some of the trustlessness. | 09:08 |
| kanzure | also i think that if it can be shown that those trustlessness properties hold for that sort of scenario, that a bip70-style payment protocol could be developed where wallets do lightning network-style negotiation and also chain selection where your hubs might have cross-chain presence. then you don't entirely need your merchant (or whoever) to be expecting your original funds to be originating from the same blockchain as they wish to ... | 09:11 |
| kanzure | ... receive them on. | 09:11 |
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| kanzure | Ylbam: here are some treechains things, | 09:13 |
| kanzure | https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1083345.0 | 09:13 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/petertodd/tree-chains-paper | 09:13 |
| kanzure | https://letstalkbitcoin.com/ltb104-tree-chains-with-peter-todd/ | 09:13 |
| kanzure | http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2014-April/005284.html | 09:13 |
| kanzure | http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2014-March/004797.html | 09:13 |
| Ylbam | ok thanx for the links | 09:13 |
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| smellymoo | fluffypony, are you online? | 09:16 |
| smellymoo | fluffypony, I think I solved the problem. Want your critic. | 09:17 |
| kanzure | these pseudonyms are dope | 09:17 |
| smellymoo | kanzure, heh. | 09:18 |
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| smellymoo | fluffypony, I'll pm you. | 09:20 |
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| kanzure | benefit of bip70-like payment protocol + payment channels + cross-chain hubs is that you could have committed transaction volume shifting around between different chains. and then you don't have to bottleneck a single blockchain with a billion transactions/second. | 09:24 |
| kanzure | although you would have to come up with a good way to convince people to receive outputs on the other chains.... | 09:25 |
| kanzure | or er, to shift their preferences. probably with lower fees. | 09:25 |
| kanzure | also i should note that a bip70-style payment protocol that is interactive between sender and receiver was likely to happen anyway for payment channel reasons and lightning network reasons. offloading even more work into that wallet-to-wallet communication seems like an easy win for everyone. | 09:28 |
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| kanzure | (((also when i say merged-mined chains above i am also talking about compact spv proof magic for bitcoin teleporation or bitcoin token migration; so convincing someone to accept outputs on another chain is not as hard as otherwise.))) | 09:32 |
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| smellymoo | kanzure, are you talking to yourself? | 09:39 |
| ryan-c | braindumping | 09:39 |
| smellymoo | ryan-c, yeah, I got a totally bitching idea, but I'm going to hold onto it until I figure out the details and write my white paper. Not so good at keeping things in my brain though. | 09:40 |
| kanzure | ryan-c: correct | 09:44 |
| kanzure | irc is mostly asynchronous communication anyway | 09:45 |
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| kanzure | "gpg keyserver gossip visualization" http://bl.ocks.org/diafygi/3f344c22f8a37a7b2151 | 12:35 |
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| kanzure | giant n-of-m pools based on web-of-trust reputation could allow for much lower fees for various transaction types, but entry into the pool will be much more scrutinous because nobody wants a troublemaker that causes delays or for fraud-correction or revocation transactions to have to hit the blockchain (which might even squader prior fee profitability). but anyway, because the fee savings are so great, this might exert a pressure on ... | 13:47 |
| kanzure | ... scrutiny of members that join an m-of-n signing ring, although personally i hope to see 10k-member signing rings that work reliably for multiple years. | 13:47 |
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| kanzure | "query routing for the gnutella network" http://www.cs.kent.edu/~javed/class-P2P12F/qrp.html | 14:07 |
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| kanzure | er, i probably meant n-of-n above | 14:29 |
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| kanzure | snarks on authenticated data http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/617 and https://github.com/mbbarbosa/libsnark/commit/006b118255019c8d6b48a065c719c1d217b22458#diff-630828ca6ba73d4e90262cc83f173cc3R4 | 15:50 |
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| kanzure | ecdsa blind signatures http://oleganza.com/blind-ecdsa-draft-v1.pdf and https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=440572.0 | 16:51 |
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| ryan-c | anyone know of a way to search for tx outputs of a specific amount? | 17:01 |
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| belcher | yeah, sec | 17:04 |
| belcher | i coded something simple a few months ago, queries bc.i | 17:04 |
| ryan-c | cool, i even managed to get them to give me an api key already | 17:04 |
| kanzure | two soft-fork proposals to make use of OP_NOPs https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1007831.0 and another one here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1106586.msg11771108#msg11771108 basically one was to flip the behavior of some OP_NOPs and another one is to extend the OP_NOP set | 17:05 |
| belcher | ryan-c http://pastebin.com/mJMziuhP | 17:06 |
| belcher | it was used back then to deanonymize bitcoinfog and other mixers | 17:06 |
| ryan-c | I've been derping around with where brainwallets have been pilfered two | 17:06 |
| ryan-c | to | 17:07 |
| ryan-c | playing around with blockseer a bit but it's pretty limited | 17:07 |
| ryan-c | belcher: that looks perfect, actually - I found a couple clusters of brainwallets with transactions that make a bunch of outputs with the same value, some of which are brainwallets i cracked | 17:08 |
| ryan-c | looks like researcher activity | 17:10 |
| belcher | if i was coding it today i would've used json-rpc, but back then i didnt have the blockchain downloaded | 17:11 |
| ryan-c | json-rpc against bitcoind? | 17:11 |
| belcher | yeah | 17:11 |
| ryan-c | I've found it's gotten very slow to all the transactions in blocks these days | 17:12 |
| belcher | iv also got an alternate script, slightly more complex, which finds multiple txes that pay to one address, and adds up the total btc, searches against that | 17:12 |
| ryan-c | interesting | 17:13 |
| belcher | used specifically for bitcoinfog, because for some reason they pay multiple times to a single address... | 17:13 |
| ryan-c | I was trying to scrape r values and compute z for all transactions a while ago, but it got slow at around block 190,000 | 17:13 |
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| kanzure | are you looking for reused r values? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=581411.0 | 17:15 |
| ryan-c | kanzure: I am not looking for reused r values | 17:15 |
| ryan-c | I am looking for other things which I would prefer not to elaborate on in public. | 17:17 |
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| kanzure | non-trustless escrow approach to something like the lightning network that could be upgraded to better payment channels later https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1036208.0 | 17:21 |
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| kanzure | iacr has a forum http://eprint.iacr.org/forum/ | 17:51 |
| kanzure | .. oh it's completely dead. hm. | 17:52 |
| nsh | forums are strongly opposed by the right angle-bracket lobby, to which cryptographers are pretty beholden. so it's mailing-lists until email is retired | 17:56 |
| ryan-c | "angle-bracket lobby" | 17:57 |
| ryan-c | I am so stealing that. | 17:57 |
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| * nsh smiles | 18:00 | |
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