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| CodeShark_ | Hmmm...not happy about adding soft fork thresholds to chain params directly...but perhaps we can use an abstract base class for soft fork thresholds so anyone creating a new alt/sidechain or testnet can inherit from it | 00:54 |
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| CodeShark_ | or perhaps we can just instantiate a map at runtime | 00:56 |
| CodeShark_ | oops, should do this in dev... | 00:56 |
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| mjerr | anyone got further information about schnorr signatures vs ecdsa? I hear a lot about schnorr, but I'm not really able to figure out why it's so much better - any paper or similar would be great | 08:40 |
| andytoshi | mjerr: schnorr signatures are algebraically simpler and have a security proof; the naive way of computing them is much faster than the naive way of doing ECDSA | 08:41 |
| mjerr | any downsides of using them over ecdsa? | 08:41 |
| andytoshi | mjerr: their algebraic structure lets them be batch-validated, and can also be combined to do multisignatures without increasing their size | 08:41 |
| andytoshi | mjerr: lack of well-vetted implementations; until 2008 there were patents against them | 08:42 |
| mjerr | what does batch-validated mean in our context? | 08:42 |
| andytoshi | mjerr: it means you can take a whole much of ec-schnorr signatures and validate them all at once ... so like you can validate the whole block assuming all EC signatures pass, then do a batch validation on them to check that the block is actually good | 08:43 |
| mjerr | interesting :) do you have anything where I can read up some of the information? | 08:44 |
| andytoshi | hmmm, no, a lot of this is folklore .. one day https://github.com/sipa/secp256k1-paper/blob/master/paper.tex will be it i think, but for now that's empty :) | 08:47 |
| mjerr | :( | 08:50 |
| mjerr | :P | 08:50 |
| andytoshi | mjerr: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/386vh0/borromean_ring_signatures_new_research_by_greg/ has a bit of intuition about how schnorr signatures work | 08:57 |
| maaku | andytoshi: well there's some stuff written up, no? you're security proof that schorr is non-malleable | 08:57 |
| andytoshi | mjerr: ah, as maaku says there is also https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizardry/schnorr-mall.pdf | 08:58 |
| maaku | but yeah, I sent mjerr here because I know of no other source to point him to :\ | 08:58 |
| andytoshi | and http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/p/note-on-blind-signature-schemes.html talks about how they can be blindsigned (it's not clear to me that ecdsa can be blindsigned) | 08:58 |
| andytoshi | mjerr: the equations for ECDSA are (r, s) where r is the x-coordinate of the point kG (k is a secret random nonce), and s = (H(message) + rx)/k | 08:59 |
| andytoshi | this weird use of the x-coordinate of kG, plus the fact that only the message goes into the hash function, make it impossible(?) to prove secure | 09:00 |
| andytoshi | the division by k means that these signatures can't be added, which prevents blinding and efficient multisig | 09:00 |
| andytoshi | the division by k also prevents batch-validation, which is basically adding several signatures with random weights then validating the sum | 09:00 |
| mjerr | what do you mean, it is impossible to prove secure? | 09:01 |
| andytoshi | mjerr: i mean nobody has ever done it, and if you try standard proof techniques you will find you are blocked by one of the things i mentioned | 09:01 |
| andytoshi | mjerr: "proving secure" is a bit of a controversial thing, it means to prove that anyone who can forge a signature can also solve $hard_problem | 09:01 |
| andytoshi | so if $hard_problem (say, solving a random discrete log) is actually hard, then the signatures are unforgeable, given the constraints on the attacker that the proof assumes | 09:02 |
| mjerr | ah so if I would have lots of messages from one party, signed with the same private keys, but received over a long period, I could save lots of space by just adding all signatures? | 09:02 |
| maaku | mjerr: some background -- many crypto systems do not have formal security proofs, or at least useful ones of the sort andytoshi is talking about | 09:02 |
| andytoshi | mjerr: yes ... although you would be unable to prove that any specific signature is actually in the sum | 09:03 |
| mjerr | they just try to make use of some difficult-to-calculate problem, right? | 09:03 |
| andytoshi | so it might not actually be useful to do this | 09:03 |
| andytoshi | mjerr: yeah, usually discrete-log (which i think has a good wikipedia page) | 09:03 |
| kanzure | .wik discrete logarithm | 09:04 |
| yoleaux | "In mathematics, a discrete logarithm is an integer k solving the equation bk = g, where b and g are elements of a finite group." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrete_logarithm | 09:04 |
| kanzure | ((b^k) = g) | 09:04 |
| mjerr | just wanted to say that ^^ | 09:04 |
| mjerr | so these are much more difficult to solve than for example factoring large numbers (thus the lower keysizes vs RSA..) | 09:05 |
| maaku | mjerr: no, it's the same | 09:09 |
| maaku | the key size difference is because of the frequency of prime numbers | 09:09 |
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| kanzure | "deepmix: high privacy bitcoin mixing service" https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1175490.0 (i haven't evaluated this yet) | 09:18 |
| kanzure | oh, it's centralized? nevermind | 09:18 |
| belcher | just use joinmarket , duur | 09:19 |
| belcher | you dont have to hand over your coins to some .onion | 09:19 |
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| jcorgan | has anyone picked this apart yet? | 14:18 |
| jcorgan | http://arxiv.org/abs/1507.05724 | 14:18 |
| jcorgan | HORNET: High-speed Onion Routing at the Network Layer | 14:18 |
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| kanzure | still confused about this; in person rusty said there was no malleability fix available, and that OP_CLTV and OP_RCLTV and OP_CSV were not enough, but here's a comment saying otherwise? https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3lo8mb/serious_question_for_blockstreamcom_will_you_let/cv8ej9p (not from rusty) | 16:42 |
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| CodeShark | kanzure: we can probably do trustless hub-and-spokes without malleability fixes...but full LN will require it | 17:20 |
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| CodeShark | certain things, like outsourcing blockchain vigilance, seem very hard to do without malleability fixes | 17:23 |
| CodeShark | and there are a bunch of really cool things we can start doing once we can build contract "circuits" and only sign later | 17:25 |
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| rusty | kanzure: what a patch for the transcript of my talk? I just made it a bit more coherent... | 18:14 |
| rusty | I want to look the "weak block encoding" idea. Where should I get data? I'd really like to be able to reconstruct all blocks which missed by a certain difficulty. Luke-Jr? | 18:21 |
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| Luke-Jr | rustyn: I don't believe that data is anywhere. It would be sizable. | 18:25 |
| Luke-Jr | oh | 18:25 |
| Luke-Jr | hmm, depends on how much of it you need but | 18:25 |
| Luke-Jr | Namecoin's blockchain would have some ;) | 18:26 |
| kanzure | .tell rusty sure i accept patches, https://github.com/kanzure/diyhpluswiki can make it easier to submit but w/e | 18:26 |
| yoleaux | kanzure: I'll pass your message to rusty. | 18:26 |
| Luke-Jr | if you need the full blocks, though, I think the best we can do is setup Eligius to start saving them | 18:26 |
| Luke-Jr | wizkid057: ^ | 18:26 |
| kanzure | .tell rusty re: weak blocks, i think the operant search term for that is "near blocks" | 18:27 |
| yoleaux | kanzure: I'll pass your message to rusty. | 18:27 |
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| maaku | .tell rusty 'share chains' (a la p2pool) is also the same concept | 19:44 |
| yoleaux | maaku: I'll pass your message to rusty. | 19:44 |
| maaku | kanzure: rusty has a HTLC-based design that only needs the time-lock bips in order to have non-outsourceable lightning (lightning nodes need to be online 24/7) | 19:45 |
| maaku | i have not reviewed this yet | 19:45 |
| maaku | a more practical lightning that lets you outsource cheat detection and response requires bip 62 malleability fixes | 19:46 |
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| rusty | kanzure: Thanks! Will refer to "near blocks" from now on. petertodd covered all the essentials two years ago (he also suggested committing to "known but not included" txs, which is a cherry on top IMHO). | 20:47 |
| rusty | maaku: indeed, p2pool uses the same method. But that fact clouds more than illuminates, when you're trying to convince miners to adopt. | 20:47 |
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| wizkid057 | hmm... whats the purpose of storing near-missed blocks? | 20:58 |
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| maaku | rusty: I'm not trying to convince anyone to adopt :) | 20:59 |
| wizkid057 | currently dont have anything in place to log full block data for blocks > target | 20:59 |
| rusty | maaku: English imprecision. "s/you're/one is/" ? | 21:00 |
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| rusty | wizkid057: http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2013-September/003275.html | 21:00 |
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| wizkid057 | interesting | 21:01 |
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| maaku | wizkid057: lots of reasons including fee estimation as written by peter in linked email | 21:01 |
| wizkid057 | wonder what the bandwidth requirements would end up being. | 21:02 |
| maaku | also, possible to make miners preferentially build on bloks that conform to observed shares / weak blocks / near blocks | 21:02 |
| maaku | which provides protection against attacks | 21:02 |
| rusty | maaku: yes, my motivation is propagation speed. | 21:02 |
| rusty | wizkid057: done right, it's minimal. you encode blocks by referring to previous ones. | 21:03 |
| wizkid057 | so basically not anything that is anywhere near being implemented | 21:03 |
| maaku | wizkid057: this is -wizards, after all | 21:04 |
| wizkid057 | so it is :) | 21:04 |
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| wizkid057 | well, if there is a need for full block data for near misses, I can probably hack together a patch to save some of Eligius's | 21:05 |
| wizkid057 | if it helps test such things | 21:05 |
| wizkid057 | I was watching the best-so-far hash for the current round... but it got too depressing seeing it when there were some that were 99.9% of the target difficulty sometimes | 21:08 |
| rusty | wizkid057: that might be useful. The particular question is "what's a decent encoding?". It's more realistic if we have simultaneous near-blocks from multiple pools, particularly since Eligius is the largest deviant as far as mempool policy goes. | 21:13 |
| rusty | wizkid057: I should be able to pull that from p2pool for example. (He says with no idea how their protocol works in practice_ | 21:13 |
| wizkid057 | I'll add it to my TODO list | 21:14 |
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