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| nsh | yoleaux! | 01:51 |
|---|---|---|
| yoleaux | nsh! | 01:51 |
| Alanius | index calculus works by trying to factorize random group elements into powers of primitive elements which are part of the factor base | 01:56 |
| Alanius | for integers, it is possible to create a reasonably small factor base that can still factorize random integers with reasonable probability | 01:57 |
| Alanius | the factor base will consist of the smallest primes | 01:57 |
| Alanius | for example, 2 is more likely to divide random integers than 5, and 5 is more likely to divide them than 17 | 01:58 |
| Alanius | index calculus fails for elliptic curves because there is no such natural set of factors to start from | 01:58 |
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| * nsh nods | 02:14 | |
| nsh | i'm just not sure this is actually proven | 02:15 |
| nsh | and there may be very subtle ways that you could constrain point generation such that you'd restrict to a subset of points have an isomorphism to a field with a unique factorisation domain | 02:16 |
| nsh | this could be masked with blinding i'd imagine to be intractable to detect without access to the generator biasing blinding privkey | 02:18 |
| nsh | except by seeing a enough points to observe a significant deviation from uniformity | 02:18 |
| nsh | and that could be disguised as an artefact of some or other seemingly benign implementation detail underhandedly | 02:19 |
| nsh | .wik Heegner module | 02:22 |
| yoleaux | "In mathematics, a Heegner point is a point on a modular curve that is the image of a quadratic imaginary point of the upper half-plane. They were defined by Bryan Birch and named after Kurt Heegner, who used similar ideas to prove Gauss's conjecture on imaginary quadratic fields of class number one." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heegner_point | 02:22 |
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| kanzure | bsm117532: any thoughts about big-one.txt cleanup and organization? | 06:50 |
| nsh | link? | 06:55 |
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| nsh | .wik Analytic rank | 07:09 |
| yoleaux | "In mathematics, an elliptic curve (EC) is a plane algebraic curve defined by an equation of the form" — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_curve | 07:09 |
| nsh | 'KARL RUBIN AND ALICE SILVERBERG' -- http://www.ams.org/journals/bull/2002-39-04/S0273-0979-02-00952-7/S0273-0979-02-00952-7.pdf | 07:10 |
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| nsh | (RANKS OF ELLIPTIC CURVES) | 07:13 |
| fluffypony | nsh: I think your caps lock is stuck :-P | 07:13 |
| nsh | blame donald knuth | 07:14 |
| nsh | no, he's got enough on his conscience already | 07:14 |
| nsh | half the people who think they understand computering are the result of him casting pearls before swine | 07:15 |
| maaku | newb SNARK questions -- in presently considered schemes, is there benefit to having a small register file in a tinyram-like architecture? or does it matter? | 07:15 |
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| kanzure | nsh: re: your question, https://github.com/kanzure/diyhpluswiki/commit/ae30250ed66ea2d88a331a48924806f49f84fe45.diff | 07:56 |
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| nsh | ty | 08:13 |
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| bsm115732 | Does anyone have a list of successful, attempted, or theoretical attacks that have occurred against bitcoins and altcoins? (The latter is of more interest as there are more attacks -- but has anyone documented them?) | 09:54 |
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| kanzure | bsm117532: see earlier request today from me re: big-one.mdwn, curious if you have any update etc. | 10:01 |
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| bsm115732 | kanzure: We're ready to set up a wiki, and debating which one to use and which wiki software to use. | 11:05 |
| bsm115732 | I have almost no opinion on the software, because it's easy to set up, we're just going to apt-get something. | 11:05 |
| bsm115732 | I wonder if we could find a self-described non-coder type person who would be willing to collate your list and make some wiki stubs. I'm going to ask around. | 11:06 |
| bsm115732 | The contenders seem to be https://ikiwiki.info/ and https://www.mediawiki.org/ . The former because you requested something based on git. | 11:09 |
| bsm115732 | Mediawiki is a behemoth but can be apt-get installed. | 11:09 |
| kanzure | piny can also be apt-get installed, which includes ikiwiki http://piny.be/ | 11:16 |
| kanzure | anyway, i don't understand what wiki software has to do with it; i think the previous topic was something about a way to organize the info better or reprocess it. | 11:16 |
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| bsm115732 | Well, putting it on a wiki is the proposed way to reorganize it. | 11:18 |
| kanzure | huh? it is on a wiki. | 11:19 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/bitcoin/big-pile/ | 11:19 |
| kanzure | https://raw.githubusercontent.com/kanzure/diyhpluswiki/master/bitcoin/big-pile.mdwn | 11:19 |
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| bsm115732 | Ok, I guess that's technically "on a wiki" ;-) | 11:20 |
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| bsm115732 | kanzure, what's your idea for better organize or reprocess it? | 11:21 |
| bsm115732 | I'm hosting a meetup tomorrow and will ask for volunteers for this task... | 11:21 |
| kanzure | i had none; jgarzik tricked me into publishing it early, and then you mentioned a few days ago that you would sit and think about it.. | 11:21 |
| bsm115732 | hehee | 11:21 |
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| bsm115732 | Like you, I don't actually want to reorganize it myself. But I'd like to see it done. | 11:22 |
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| kanzure | i'm fine with doing it myself, i just don't have the universe's secret rule book for ultimate preservation of signal over noise | 11:22 |
| bsm115732 | This community has a good number of non-coding folks who want to contribute. I'll see who I can find. | 11:23 |
| bsm115732 | Even with wikis, signal:noise is a problem. | 11:23 |
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| bsm115732 | kanzure I think your time is better spent elsewhere. I'll let you know Thurs if I find someone to take this up. | 11:24 |
| kanzure | sounds interesting | 11:25 |
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| jgarzik | kanzure, #Crowd | 11:27 |
| bsm115732 | FYI we're going to live-stream this meeting (about the MIT Enigma project) tomorrow, if anyone here wants to attend virtually: http://www.meetup.com/BitDevsNYC/events/225374509/ | 11:28 |
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| bsm115732 | I'll post instructions tomorrow and put it on the meetup page, once we get it all figured out. | 11:28 |
| bsm115732 | I also made a new IRC channel #bitdevsnyc for discussion/questions remotely. | 11:28 |
| bsm115732 | 7pm EDT tomorrow... | 11:30 |
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| Taek | bsm115732, kanzure, jgarzik: tonight at 8pm a handful of MIT students are meeting with me to get started on putting all the information into more accessible places. We're starting simple, creating a bitcoin.ninja style website with some 'start here or here or here' links that will help you find rabbit holes related to cryptocurrency research | 11:55 |
| Taek | 8pm EST | 11:55 |
| jgarzik | +1 | 11:55 |
| Taek | we'll publish whatever we get finished tonight and then we can iterate on the design. I personally don't like wikis because it's often hard to find stuff you don't know that you don't know | 11:56 |
| bsm115732 | Taek great! We purchased bitcoinwizards.org and will donate it to the cause. | 11:56 |
| Taek | oh sweet, if you've got a git repo we can PR to, we will do so | 11:56 |
| bsm115732 | Taek if you're willing to do some work, tell me what software you want and we'll set it up for you. ikiwiki? | 11:57 |
| Taek | plan html/css/js? :P | 11:58 |
| bsm115732 | That's a hard knock life... | 11:58 |
| Taek | I never said it would be pretty | 11:58 |
| bsm115732 | Hehee | 11:59 |
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| bsm115732 | Well ikiwiki is git-hosted, if that's what you're looking for. Mediawiki will probably attract wider contributors. | 12:00 |
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| kanzure | ikiwiki has online web editor | 12:01 |
| kanzure | anyway; all of this is trivial details. i don't see any proposal regarding actual categorization method or indexing method (bips-style? or something else? etc. gmaxwell suggested tag-weighted ordering of some kind) | 12:02 |
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| amiller | Taek, sounds so cool | 12:06 |
| Taek | kanzure: current plan is pretty basic, create pages related to specific topics. Pages have the sections: 'overview (explaining the concept and current state-of-art, supposed to be maximum signal) - high signal links - low signal links - unsorted links' | 12:06 |
| Taek | the pages I hope get tackled tonight are 'types of forks (explaing soft vs hard fork, and all the variations of each)', 'utxo commitments (though none of us are really qualified to tackle it so the overview might be sparse)', and 'miner fee proposals'. Basically just want to see how it turns out | 12:08 |
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| kanzure | "types of forks" just link to bip99 | 12:20 |
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| instagibbs | Taek: looking forward to the txo commitment stuff. It's scattered on logs pretty much. (Will it cover stxo vs utxo vs ???) | 12:54 |
| Taek | instagibbs: first round is likely to be pretty sparse and have mostly the obvious stuff. But hopefully will be an improvement to everything that exists now | 12:57 |
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| instagibbs | in one are is enough for now :) I've lurked on something like 20 conversations on the topic and I always come away feeling like I know less about state of the art | 12:57 |
| instagibbs | area* | 12:57 |
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| bsm115732 | Taek, kanzure: I'm going to put up an ikiwiki on http://bitcoinwizards.org tomorrow morning. It uses git and markdown, so Taek if you want to make some notes in that format tonight, you can easily upload it tomorrow. | 13:24 |
| bsm115732 | (and if you want to request a different setup, speak now or forever hold your peace...) | 13:26 |
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| instagibbs | http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/946 | 13:37 |
| kanzure | .title | 13:38 |
| yoleaux | Cryptology ePrint Archive: Report 2015/946 | 13:38 |
| kanzure | "Asymmetric proof-of-work based on the Generalized Birthday problem" | 13:38 |
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| tromp__ | the authors would be advised to read the cuckoo cycle paper they cite, rather than the year-old obsolete version they find easier to criticize | 13:55 |
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| tromp__ | still looking forward to reading how their approach compares | 13:56 |
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| amiller | i can't figure out the comments about proofs-of-space | 14:02 |
| amiller | like why is the stack of superconcetnrators supposed to be slow | 14:02 |
| amiller | and is it really the case that computational penalties only kick in after a factor of 30 reduction? is that reduction "for free"? i'd like to know more... | 14:02 |
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| jrayhawk | bsm115732: gitit uses an ikiwiki-ish data model with a more mediawiki-like syntax | 14:41 |
| jrayhawk | fossil also has a DVCS wiki system | 14:41 |
| bsm115732 | I'm aware of gitit. I don't particularly like MediaWiki's overly-complex syntax. We can also install a MediaWiki if that's what people want... | 14:42 |
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| gmaxwell | maaku: since you didn't get a tinyram answer. Yes, there is a benefit for keeping the register file fairly small. | 14:42 |
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| gmaxwell | maaku: Imagine the circuit implementing the ALU, it needs to have a routing network to connect the register being used to the ALU | 14:43 |
| gmaxwell | maaku: the more registers, the bigger this routing network. | 14:43 |
| gmaxwell | maaku: someone who has actually seen the tinyram implementation (and not just read the papers) would be needed to talk more concretely about how increased register size increases the circuit size. | 14:44 |
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| jrayhawk | If you have specific objections to kanzure's wiki, it's possible to address those in situ | 14:44 |
| gmaxwell | maaku: I suspect that at least in the non-recursive version of the SNARK papers the tradeoff does tend to favor more registers generally. | 14:45 |
| jrayhawk | Especially regarding namespacing and history. | 14:45 |
| kanzure | Madars: ping (there are some tinyram questions that you might know things about) | 14:45 |
| gmaxwell | maaku: because every additional LOAD you do in a non-recursive snark will replicate the whole circuit for the cpu, so if one more register makes the circuit size per cycle some log(registers+1)-log(registers) amount bigger, you probably don't have to save many additional cycles to pay for the cost of the bigger register file. | 14:47 |
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| gmaxwell | maaku: that benefit falls away once the register file is so big that it only saves cycles rarely. Though I'm somewhat guessing. | 14:47 |
| bsm115732 | jrayhawk: I'm also happy to point bitcoinwizards.org to kanzure's wiki. | 14:48 |
| gmaxwell | For the recursive snark I would expect the tradeoff to be different, because additional cycles have a purely linear additional cost; rather than the polylog cost for additional cycles in the non-recursive snark. | 14:48 |
| jrayhawk | That'd work, though I assume it'd be desirable to git-filter-branch off all the bitcoin-specific content and shove it in its own repository. | 14:49 |
| bsm115732 | Or start a new wiki. ;-) | 14:50 |
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| kanzure | problem was "figure out good strategy for indexing bitcoin wizardry and technology inventions" not "fiddle with infrastructure". infrastructure skillz/execution is by no means lacking in this community. | 14:51 |
| bsm115732 | Personally, I keep a lot of my own mental notes in a wiki (TiddlyWiki) that is private, though I've used publicly accessible wikis for this before. I'd want to keep my stuff to myself... kanzure do you want to keep all this on your wiki? | 14:51 |
| jrayhawk | I dunno, I feel sorry for someone doing Ikiwiki from scratch. | 14:51 |
| kanzure | something better than: https://github.com/kanzure/diyhpluswiki/commit/ae30250ed66ea2d88a331a48924806f49f84fe45.diff | 14:52 |
| gmaxwell | nsh: wrt your comments about UFD, so yes, the recent attacks on characteristic 2 curves effectively find a way to create something that is morlally equivilent for a factor base. | 14:52 |
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| gmaxwell | nsh: a think to keep in mind is that even if a UFD cannot exist for a curve (keep in mind that our curves are over a field, not over its quadratic extension) that that doesn't imply that something morally equivilent enough for index calculus cannot exist. | 14:53 |
| gmaxwell | nsh: and WRT your earlier constraint about constraining private keys. What you're saying is true, but its trivally true in ways simpler than you might expect-- e.g. if your private key is constrained to a small range then I can just search the range to find a discrete log! | 14:56 |
| gmaxwell | as an aside, it's best to not learn anything about number theory if you want to retain any confidence in using asymettric cryptography. :) | 14:57 |
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| jrayhawk | I've set up 216.151.3.186 to do things with Host: bitcoinwizards.org and www.bitcoinwizards.org | 15:01 |
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| maaku | gmaxwell: so to paraphrase (to make sure I understand it correctly), with non-recursive snark more registers is probably better, so long as that means fewer instructions executed | 15:03 |
| maaku | for recursive snark, the larger gains are in reducing the circuit size, so assuming fewer registers == smaller circuit, that would be preferable | 15:04 |
| maaku | gmaxwell: that helps. i was trying to justify a non-standard 16-register variant vs the full 32-register cpu | 15:06 |
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| gmaxwell | maaku: I think so. circuit_size == log(registers); prover work = poly_log(circuit_size * cycles) (e.g. linear * log(n)) for recursive snark, prover work = c*poly_log(circuit_size)*cycles | 15:07 |
| maaku | hrm.. ok. hard to generalize about that | 15:09 |
| gmaxwell | maaku: in terms of SNARK compatiblity, I'd probably worry about instruction fanout-- as the same kind of muxing blowup exists for instructions) than register cost, but I'm guessing. | 15:09 |
| bsm115732 | jrayhawk or clone https://github.com/mcelrath/bitcoinwizards.wiki.git and help fill it with *.md files ;-) | 15:09 |
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| gmaxwell | maaku: the intution is a little complicated because for GGPR12 snarks the circuit is an arithemetic circuit, so "what is expensive" is not 1:1 what is expensive with binary logic. | 15:10 |
| maaku | gmaxwell: right well the architecture I'm looking at (RISC-V) is specifically constructed to avoid such ISA-derived complexity | 15:11 |
| maaku | it's just they've standardized on a 32-register file, but there is an obscure 16-register variant ... so are snark gains worth not using the standard compiler target? tough call | 15:11 |
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| amiller | maaku, my opinion is that using a compiler to arithmetic circuits is almost always better than using an instruction set, unless you have some very specific needs | 15:14 |
| amiller | maaku, im curious what application you have in mind | 15:14 |
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| maaku | amiller: I have no specific application for SNARKs in mind, rather I am investigating a standardized VM that is simple enough to put in consensus code | 15:15 |
| gmaxwell | amiller: I am not mark but I can answer easily--- because of the insane setup costs (e.g. dealing with the CRS insecurity) for a snark, having a universal circuit available is very attractive. | 15:16 |
| amiller | i see | 15:16 |
| maaku | and it would just be a crying shame if some aspect of the architecture made it difficult to do efficient zk-SNARK proofs of execution | 15:16 |
| amiller | yeah, doing the setup once and for all is a nice reason | 15:16 |
| gmaxwell | If we're thinking about varrious standarized VMs for smart contracty things, making it also snark friendly would be nice. | 15:17 |
| gmaxwell | Or at least subsettable to snark friendlyness. | 15:17 |
| gmaxwell | maaku: so thats a point, so long as the instruction set can be subset that might be good enough. E.g. don't use registers x-y. | 15:17 |
| maaku | gmaxwell: hrmm. that is an interesting point. restricting the register file is a soft-fork change | 15:18 |
| gmaxwell | kinda makes me wonder why tinyram wasn't just dont that way in the first place. | 15:19 |
| amiller | i don't have a lot of insight into tinyram's design or what the conseuqences would have been of other architectures | 15:19 |
| amiller | i think stack machine would make sense too | 15:20 |
| maaku | amiller: heresy! | 15:20 |
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| maaku | I'm also have strong preferences for stack machines, but it's hard to make them compiler targetable :( | 15:21 |
| amiller | https://github.com/pepper-project/tinyram this was posted here before but i didn't notice it | 15:21 |
| maaku | e.g. for running bitcoin within it | 15:21 |
| kanzure | wasn't moxie selected for its simplicity? | 15:24 |
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| amiller | maaku, suppose more registers was cheap, would it be possible to benefit from a much larger number of registers? | 15:25 |
| kanzure | maaku: simple cpu design is pretty easy to jump into, hopefully you wont stop at RISC stuff. | 15:26 |
| amiller | iirc the sorting phase basically depends on the program counter when the registers were written to, so the number of registers doesn't matter directly | 15:26 |
| kanzure | there's probably some silly 4-bit designs on opencores | 15:26 |
| kanzure | http://opencores.org/projects | 15:27 |
| kanzure | definitely a bunch of RISC things. | 15:27 |
| maaku | kanzure: I believe RISC-V to be a better alternative to moxie for both mundane reasons (it's better supported with a vibrant community) and technical (instruction encoding for RISC-V is better organized for minimal implementations, more thought into expansion spaces) | 15:28 |
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| maaku | i don't think anything has been 'selected' yet :P | 15:28 |
| maaku | kanzure: http://riscv.org/ | 15:29 |
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| kanzure | also fun stuff on github like https://github.com/cliffordwolf/picorv32 (yes that's right i'm linking to a cliffowrdwolf repo, and yes i'm a huge hypocrite for this) | 15:29 |
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| maaku | amiller: in principle, yes, RISC-V justifies the choice of 32 registers based on real world data (e.g. compiling the linux kernel) showing fewer instructions generated | 15:30 |
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| maaku | but is 10% fewer instructions worth 15% larger circuits? sounds like a tossup depending on the SNARK technology used | 15:31 |
| maaku | kanzure: look closer, that's RISC-V ;) | 15:31 |
| nsh | gmaxwell, thanks for your comments earlier! | 15:32 |
| amiller | maaku, i wouldn't be surprised if you could have thousands of registers for free | 15:32 |
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| maaku | amiller: well there's not much reason to have more then 32, in terms of compiler targetability, and gmaxwell made the astute observation that it would be okay for a circuit to cover a subset of the ISA, so problem solved :) | 15:34 |
| amiller | this paper has a lot of discussion about Buffet's rationale for optimizing tinyram http://www.pepper-project.org/buffet-ndss15.pdf | 15:34 |
| maaku | amiller: thanks, will read | 15:35 |
| kanzure | also more generally the pepper project people did a snarks lecture here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4jzA6ts2j4 | 15:35 |
| amiller | the michael walfish guy is legendary, they basically just implemented their own open source tinyram since scipr-lab didn't get around to releasing it | 15:35 |
| kanzure | (video is michael walfish) | 15:36 |
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| wumpus | would the distinction 'register' versus 'ram' even make sense for something like SNARK? Normally this is a practical distinction because of process/closeness to the ALU, but if it's all just state bits, spillage to the stack is just as bad as registers, or not? | 15:36 |
| gmaxwell | amiller: stack machines are hard for compilers to target in general, and there are AFAIK no mature production grade compilers from C to a stack machine. | 15:37 |
| amiller | gmaxwell, ah | 15:37 |
| wumpus | java? *ducks* | 15:37 |
| gmaxwell | (JVM excepted but JVM is .. weird) | 15:37 |
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| gmaxwell | lol I delayed in sending that message for several minutes not knowing exactly what to say about java and then sent it anyways; ... glad I could count on wumpus to call me out. :) | 15:38 |
| amiller | maaku, ah this paper explicitly describes a distinction between bctv tinyram 16 registers and theirs 32 registers | 15:38 |
| gmaxwell | wumpus: actually it does make sense in that every instruction can read from the register file, but only load/store touch ram. | 15:38 |
| maaku | though if someone wants to make a forth backend for gcc/llvm, it'd be pretty dang awesome.. | 15:39 |
| maaku | wumpus: as gmaxwell alludes, the context is load/store architectures | 15:39 |
| kanzure | there might be a jvm backend for llvm | 15:39 |
| maaku | otherwise it might not make much sense | 15:39 |
| wumpus | gmaxwell: right, then it's a useful distinction | 15:40 |
| gmaxwell | wumpus: basically, closeness also applies. "ram" is far because you need a lot of work to check agreement with it. What tinyram had to do this was very clever in fact. | 15:40 |
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| gmaxwell | (basically the program writes a transcript of all the ram accessesses, verifies consistency with the accesses as it runs, then verifies a sorting of the list, to make sure that the ram accesses are all consistent with each other. | 15:41 |
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| gmaxwell | andytoshi: some of the people on this paper at university of texas: 15:34 < amiller> this paper has a lot of discussion about Buffet's rationale for optimizing tinyram http://www.pepper-project.org/buffet-ndss15.pdf | 15:44 |
| kanzure | yes yes, i've been trying to get him to meet them | 15:44 |
| kanzure | something about not liking the cs department people | 15:44 |
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| amiller | one of them is math, andrew j blumberg anyway | 15:45 |
| kanzure | yes an algebraic topology person | 15:45 |
| amiller | maybe that's andytoshi's advisor | 15:46 |
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| gmaxwell | oh this paper also describes the memory consistency stuff; looks more readable than the SNARKS from C paper. | 15:47 |
| kanzure | not his advisor | 15:47 |
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| amiller | gmaxwell, what is the effective difference between RAM and registers at all, given that consistency check approach? also i'm not sure what you meant, saying that closeness has an impact | 15:49 |
| kanzure | as reminder there are things here, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/snarks/ | 15:49 |
| amiller | oh, wait, the circuit actually *loops over the entire register file*, see Figure 2 | 15:50 |
| gmaxwell | amiller: the cost is increasing the size of the memory agreement sorting network and memory transcript. | 15:52 |
| gmaxwell | amiller: the prover key has upper bounds on the number of executions and memory operations. If every instruction is also three memory operations (e.g. because there are no registers) then the memory consistency parts is MUCH bigger. | 15:53 |
| gmaxwell | But I should probably read that paper you linked to before saying anymore. My views here are only slightly informed. | 15:55 |
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| gmaxwell | Oh their generalization is nice. Tinyram just becomes an interperter compiled by their system. | 16:01 |
| kanzure | "also qualifies as a regular expression engine" (not really) | 16:03 |
| gmaxwell | man, I wonder when people working on this space are going to give up on this idea of computation outsourcing. You could make this stuff a million fold faster and no one is going to use it to delegate computation from their smartphone to the cloud. :) | 16:06 |
| nsh | any audio/video talks on tinyram? | 16:08 |
| nsh | alternatively, any pdf screenreaders that aren't awful? | 16:09 |
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| kanzure | i think this mentions tinyram but i haven't watched entirely yet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4jzA6ts2j4 | 16:11 |
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| nsh | oh, nice ty | 16:11 |
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| kanzure | walfish is very difficult to transcribe | 16:57 |
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| MRL-Relay | [shen] so, in CT let's suppose you have a commitment C = C0 + C1 + C2 + ... + Cn (as an expression in base 2), are there different blinding factors for each Ci? (Otherwise it seems one could subtract off H from each C_i and narrow down possibilities to either a number or it's bit complement) | 17:23 |
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| MRL-Relay | [shen] ahh nevermind - it must be that way | 17:27 |
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| MRL-Relay | [shen] ahh I see, the sum of blinding factors adds to the total blinding factor (going over the range proofs for first time) | 17:32 |
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| gmaxwell | shen: right, the blinding factors are unique for each value. | 17:34 |
| kanzure | amiller: hey out of the videos here, which would you prioritize for transcripts? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCW1C2xOfXsIzPgjXyuhkw9g | 17:35 |
| kanzure | same question for gmaxwell | 17:35 |
| kanzure | there is an eran tromer video which looks like an obvious candidate | 17:36 |
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| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/simons-institute/a-wishlist-for-verifiable-computation/ | 17:37 |
| kanzure | (michael walfish video^) | 17:37 |
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| gmaxwell | gah die. | 17:54 |
| gmaxwell | lol | 17:54 |
| gmaxwell | very first sentences describes the cloud outsourcing application. :P | 17:55 |
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| gmaxwell | kanzure: transcript fix, Gentry's first name is Craig, not Greg. :) | 17:58 |
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| gmaxwell | I am reasonably convinced that if spherical cow SNARKS existed, e.g. prover cost only 10x straight execution, constant size proofs, and fast verifier... that still virtually no one would use it to outsource computation to the cloud. | 18:00 |
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| gmaxwell | Since losing your privacy to a cloud operator and depending on its timely response (after all, if you didn't care about speed you'd compute locally) already implies substantial trust. And if you are not sensitive to privacy and are worried that your cloud might twiddle your results you can send to 2 or 4 or however many seperate providers. ... and still be cheaper to operate than the spherical c | 18:02 |
| gmaxwell | ow snark with the 10x slowdown. | 18:02 |
| maaku | gmaxwell: but that wouldn't be buzzword compliant... | 18:04 |
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| gmaxwell | well I think some of this stems from microsoft research and the justifications people are giving for doing work there ("the cloud"), and perhaps it's harmless. but maybe it directs research in less useful directions, e.g. in that model the zero knowledgeness is basically irrelevant, it just falls out as a side effect of being super efficient. | 18:06 |
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| amiller | i agree, i think the applications they usually give for outsourcing are totally uncompelling | 18:22 |
| amiller | it's more interesting when there's some kind of clearer security need | 18:23 |
| amiller | i think the data structure ones are good | 18:23 |
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| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/simons-institute/snarks-and-their-practical-applications/ | 18:24 |
| amiller | like you want to use a secure navigation system on your phone, so you're going to ask some random provider for a shortest-path-from-A-to-B query, | 18:24 |
| amiller | and you get a query that's validated against some well known trusted source | 18:24 |
| gmaxwell | amiller: but if they want to give you a bad result they can just subsitute the database. I guess if the database is authenticated it's perhaps interesting... though why not just ask that source instead and skip the snark? :P | 18:25 |
| amiller | in general, when you ask google maps for the shortest paths, you don't know what factors go into the response.... they could be steering you past the most profitable billboards, and it only adds 10 seconds to your time | 18:25 |
| amiller | ok because that source probably doesn't want to have a big attack surface, and don't want to be in the business of maintaing a mirrored service | 18:26 |
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| gmaxwell | Yea. I agree that it's at least not completely uninteresting. It also probably wants zero knoweldge, the mapmaker might not want their map data being completely public. | 18:27 |
| amiller | the map source can be a lot of different things, like it could be the "most-voted-on map" or one signed by a big panel of celebrities | 18:27 |
| amiller | cartographer celebrities definitely | 18:27 |
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| kanzure | so none of the other videos look particularly worthy? | 18:29 |
| amiller | uh, and if you've already bought into blockchain + internet of things story, then when your closet asks your toaster to borrow some money, you don't want it have to reveal all the clothes you're storing | 18:29 |
| amiller | kanzure, elaine's talk on Hawk and Gyges? | 18:29 |
| amiller | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ6Hii69b5U | 18:30 |
| kanzure | any of these? fast circuit garbling, secure ram computation, multi-party computation and oblivious ram, fully homomorphic encryption stuff, multilinear maps over integers, etc | 18:31 |
| kanzure | ah | 18:31 |
| amiller | click the "securing computation" playlist | 18:32 |
| amiller | this one is one of the MPC and blockchain ones, from Aggelos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L25KE61a4w | 18:32 |
| gmaxwell | amiller: yea, as soon as you bring cryptocurrency into the picture all these things become insanely useful. | 18:32 |
| gmaxwell | though they're useful outside of that... I've had a surprisingly hard time making good arguments for them outside of the cryptocurrency space. | 18:33 |
| kanzure | not sure if that elaine shi video is same content as http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/mit-bitcoin-expo-2015/andrew-miller/ ? | 18:33 |
| amiller | kanzure, actually no, those are disjoint | 18:34 |
| amiller | this one is from ranjit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZlIRr6Xwe8 it actually covers lots of similar stuff from his Scaling Bitcoin talk | 18:35 |
| amiller | this one from is from an IBM research guy, it is not strictly cryptocurrency related but it is suggesting to use multiparty computation to conduct a stock exchange https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBmNbUyMaUg | 18:36 |
| gmaxwell | SMPC is more useful, I think, for non-cryptocurrency stuff. :) | 18:37 |
| amiller | those are all the ones from that day i think people here will like | 18:38 |
| gmaxwell | e.g. second price auctions that actually keep bids private is a big deal, bigger than people realize. | 18:38 |
| gmaxwell | sealed bid auctions leak a lot, and even the fear that they'll leak contributes to inefficiency. | 18:38 |
| kanzure | i have never understood how auction houses aren't completely regulated out of existence | 18:38 |
| amiller | yeah! i don't know what it would take to convince people of that | 18:39 |
| amiller | is there a game theory argument that makes that clear? | 18:39 |
| kanzure | well there's probably a big stick argument | 18:39 |
| amiller | ah i mean the "auctions should be more private" thing mostly | 18:40 |
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| gmaxwell | there are lots of papers by economymists... but sealed bid auctions are already used extensively in the US for government purchasing. | 18:40 |
| maaku | amiller: there's the extensive experimental record of actual auctions being manipulated | 18:41 |
| maaku | and, like, every HFT trick in the book | 18:41 |
| gmaxwell | But they are not second price auctions, and the reciever of the bids is (justifyably) not really all that trusted to not leak information about them. | 18:41 |
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| amiller | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjUNj8ow6UE here is a potato quality video (transcript would be an improvement) of Eli Ben Sasson explaining the scipr-lab project at Princeton, it goes into some detail on tinyram (mostly at the end) | 18:46 |
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| amiller | i think maaku asked for something like that ^^ | 18:48 |
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| maaku | thanks | 18:56 |
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| Taek | https://github.com/DavidVorick/knosys | 19:35 |
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| Taek | My file + 4 PRs, would appreciate feedback. None of the files are close to complete atm, but it's a start | 19:35 |
| Taek | jgarzik, kanzure ^ | 19:36 |
| bsm117532 | "Fee Sniping" should be its own wiki page. It's the way wikis generally work. Likewise the things you have in quotes in the Overview should be their own wiki pages. The Overview should say something very general about what transaction fees are. | 19:39 |
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| bsm117532 | I know you're converting a bookmark list, essentially...but a wiki should be better organized. Hard as that might be :-/ | 19:40 |
| bsm117532 | And thanks for your efforts on this! | 19:41 |
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| Taek | The fee page will eventually be 3 or more pages. Cp4p and rbf should be separate too | 19:44 |
| bsm117532 | Is there a good reason not to accept those PR's? Makes it easier to navigate... | 19:45 |
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| Taek | I will be accepting them later tonight | 19:51 |
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| kanzure | eh, could be worse | 20:02 |
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