| --- Log opened Sat Oct 10 00:00:52 2015 | ||
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| lmatteis | can anyone point me to research around achieving consensus on tokens that are meant to have economical value. for instance, not a currency but still needs decentralized consensus. | 01:40 |
|---|---|---|
| lmatteis | sorry, *meant to NOT have economical value | 01:41 |
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| CodeShark | Luke-Jr: quantum computers only have a quadratic improvement over classical computers in computing hash preimages | 02:17 |
| CodeShark | so if you only know the HASH160 of a public key you still have about 80 bits of security | 02:17 |
| Luke-Jr | CodeShark: in this case, they know the full public key for keys 1..N, but not N+1 | 02:18 |
| CodeShark | but if you know the public key you can reverse the elliptic curve multiplication in probabilistic polynomial time | 02:18 |
| Luke-Jr | I don't think they can break N+1, right? | 02:18 |
| CodeShark | O(n^2) | 02:18 |
| CodeShark | you cannot derive the next key in the HD tree without the chain code | 02:19 |
| CodeShark | since it uses an HMAC | 02:19 |
| Luke-Jr | ok, good. that's what I thought | 02:19 |
| CodeShark | but all this is moot if we use ECDSA anyhow ;) | 02:23 |
| CodeShark | or any crypto based on discrete logs | 02:23 |
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| CodeShark | well, the HASH160 thing still gives you 80 bits of security | 02:24 |
| CodeShark | but...there's still a serious problem | 02:25 |
| CodeShark | as soon as you publish a transaction spending the output, others know your public key and can start breaking it | 02:25 |
| CodeShark | so if they can break it before the transaction gets confirmed, they might be able to mine a double-spend | 02:26 |
| CodeShark | if we assume a complete break (where the time to reverse the elliptic curve multiplication is negligible compared to block interval) an ECDSA signature hashed with HASH160 is no better than just a random preimage hash | 02:30 |
| CodeShark | rather, the ECDSA signatures become irrelevant - and the redeemscript might as well just be some random script that returns true no matter what ;) | 02:32 |
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| Luke-Jr | CodeShark: we'd need to commit to transaction hashes | 02:35 |
| Luke-Jr | probably a hardfork | 02:35 |
| CodeShark | not sure I follow | 02:36 |
| Luke-Jr | CodeShark: to spend, you'd make the txn, but keep it private until your txid is confirmed | 02:36 |
| Luke-Jr | and such a transaction would only be valid if the txid had been confirmed in the chain | 02:36 |
| CodeShark | ok, that's what I thought you might have meant - the immediate issue I can think of is how to pay a fee for inclusion of the tx hash commitment (or whether that can be pruned somehow once the tx itself is published) | 02:37 |
| CodeShark | and the other is that offchain protocols completely fail | 02:38 |
| Luke-Jr | fee can easily be part of the new consensus rules | 02:38 |
| Luke-Jr | offchain protocols fail *for ECDSA-based stuff* | 02:39 |
| CodeShark | but how do you pay a fee without presenting a signature immediately? | 02:39 |
| Luke-Jr | the txid-mining format would just commit to a fee | 02:39 |
| CodeShark | but that can be DoS'd pretty easily, no? | 02:39 |
| Luke-Jr | hm, maybe. worst case, no fees | 02:40 |
| Luke-Jr | it's not like it'd be a regular thing | 02:40 |
| Luke-Jr | another option is paying the fee from a secure UTXO | 02:40 |
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| CodeShark | probably better to just move to quantum-resistant crypto | 02:41 |
| Luke-Jr | this is how we'd make the move if quantum beat us to it | 02:42 |
| Luke-Jr | the outputs wouldn't be to ECDSA keys ;) | 02:42 |
| CodeShark | we could just add another OP_CHECKSIGVERIFY family of op codes using a quantum-resistant scheme | 02:42 |
| Luke-Jr | … | 02:43 |
| Luke-Jr | you're missing the part where existing UTXOs aren't using that opcode | 02:43 |
| CodeShark | oh...then we checkpoint :p | 02:43 |
| CodeShark | lol | 02:43 |
| CodeShark | hmmm | 02:43 |
| Luke-Jr | checkpoint won't help | 02:43 |
| CodeShark | yeah, I get what you're saying | 02:44 |
| CodeShark | well, any UTXOs that reuse scripts that have already been spent would be basically screwed anyhow | 02:44 |
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| Luke-Jr | CodeShark: of course, but that's unsupported address reuse ;) | 02:45 |
| CodeShark | it would be better to issue a wide advisory for people to move their old UTXOs to new ones BEFORE a QC break ;) | 02:47 |
| CodeShark | do we have any statistics on what % of UTXO are in reused scripts? | 02:48 |
| CodeShark | anyone have a tool that can quickly compute that? | 02:49 |
| Luke-Jr | CodeShark: afaik the only QC-resistant stuff now would be much larger tx sizes | 02:50 |
| CodeShark | yes, it has worse performance and size characteristics...but not too extremely terrible...within practicality | 02:51 |
| Luke-Jr | but not within what we'd want people to switch to prematurely | 02:51 |
| CodeShark | well sure - ECDSA is very attractive in this regard | 02:52 |
| CodeShark | but as opposed to other fancier crypto ideas such as zkSNARKS, quantum resistant signature schemes are probably well within practical limits for today's computers | 02:54 |
| Luke-Jr | sure | 02:55 |
| CodeShark | in any case, breaking discrete log means pretty much all of the currently widely used public key crypto would fail | 02:56 |
| CodeShark | so we probably have other more serious problems to worry about ; | 02:56 |
| CodeShark | ;) | 02:56 |
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| CodeShark | also, RSA isn't particularly attractive either ;) | 02:58 |
| CodeShark | compared to ECDSA | 02:59 |
| CodeShark | yet RSA continues to be very widely used | 02:59 |
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| -!- Topic for #bitcoin-wizards: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja | 13:43 | |
| -!- Topic set by wumpus [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/wumpus] [Sat Jun 27 01:24:18 2015] | 13:43 | |
| [Users #bitcoin-wizards] | 13:43 | |
| [@ChanServ ] [ CodeArtix ] [ go1111111 ] [ jouke_ ] [ nanotube ] [ starsoccer ] | 13:43 | |
| [ [ace] ] [ comboy ] [ GoonClooney ] [ jrayhawk ] [ neha ] [ stevenroose ] | 13:43 | |
| [ [d__d] ] [ contrapumpkin ] [ Graet ] [ jtimon ] [ nephyrin` ] [ stonecoldpat ] | 13:43 | |
| [ [Derek] ] [ Cory ] [ grandmaster ] [ justanotheruser] [ NewLiberty ] [ STRML ] | 13:43 | |
| [ _whitelogger_ ] [ coryfields ] [ GreenIsMyPepper] [ K1773R ] [ nickler ] [ superobserver ] | 13:43 | |
| [ a5m0 ] [ crescendo ] [ gribble ] [ kanzure ] [ nsh ] [ SwedFTP ] | 13:43 | |
| [ AaronvanW ] [ cryptowest ] [ grubles ] [ Keefe ] [ null_radix ] [ Taek ] | 13:43 | |
| [ adams__ ] [ d9b4bef9 ] [ Guest1235 ] [ King_Rex ] [ OneFixt ] [ TBI_ ] | 13:43 | |
| [ adlai ] [ damethos ] [ Guest45978 ] [ kinlo ] [ optimator ] [ TD-Linux ] | 13:43 | |
| [ AdrianG ] [ dansmith_btc ] [ Guest4879 ] [ kisspunch ] [ orik ] [ Tenhi ] | 13:43 | |
| [ afdudley ] [ dasource ] [ guruvan ] [ koshii ] [ otoburb ] [ Tenhi_ ] | 13:43 | |
| [ afk11 ] [ davec ] [ Guyver2 ] [ Krellan ] [ paci ] [ TheSeven ] | 13:43 | |
| [ aj ] [ davout ] [ gwillen ] [ kumavis ] [ PaulCapestany ] [ theymos ] | 13:43 | |
| [ Alanius ] [ dEBRUYNE_ ] [ harding ] [ kyuupichan ] [ paveljanik ] [ thrasher` ] | 13:43 | |
| [ alexkuck ] [ devrandom ] [ harding_ ] [ larraboj ] [ penjenayah ] [ throughnothing] | 13:43 | |
| [ amiller ] [ dgenr8 ] [ harrigan ] [ lclc ] [ petertodd ] [ Tiraspol ] | 13:43 | |
| [ Anduck ] [ dhafk ] [ harrow ] [ lecusemb1e ] [ phantomcircuit ] [ tripleslash ] | 13:43 | |
| [ andytoshi ] [ dignork ] [ hashtagg ] [ LeMiner ] [ poggy_ ] [ tromp ] | 13:43 | |
| [ Apocalyptic ] [ DougieBot5000 ] [ hazirafel ] [ livegnik ] [ poutine ] [ tromp_ ] | 13:43 | |
| [ artifexd ] [ Dr-G ] [ heath ] [ lmatteis ] [ PRab ] [ ttttemp ] | 13:43 | |
| [ arubi ] [ drue ] [ helo ] [ Logicwax ] [ prosody ] [ tucenaber ] | 13:43 | |
| [ azariah ] [ earthris1 ] [ hsmiths ] [ lomax_ ] [ PsychoticBoy ] [ uniken510 ] | 13:43 | |
| [ badmofo ] [ Eliel ] [ humd1ng3r ] [ Londe ] [ qawap ] [ vonzipper ] | 13:43 | |
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| [ bassguitarman ] [ epscy ] [ ibrightly ] [ luny ] [ rabidus ] [ warren ] | 13:43 | |
| [ bedeho ] [ eric ] [ iddo ] [ maaku ] [ rasengan ] [ waxwing ] | 13:43 | |
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| [ bildramer ] [ espes__ ] [ instagibbs ] [ Madars ] [ roasbeef ] [ wilbns ] | 13:43 | |
| [ binaryatrocity] [ evoskuil ] [ Iriez ] [ MagikSquirrel ] [ robmyers ] [ wizkid057 ] | 13:43 | |
| [ bliljerk_ ] [ execute ] [ isis ] [ malte ] [ runeks ] [ wpalczynski ] | 13:43 | |
| [ BlueMatt ] [ face_ ] [ Jaamg ] [ mappum ] [ rustyn ] [ wumpus ] | 13:43 | |
| [ bobke_ ] [ Fistful_of_Coins] [ jaromil ] [ mariorz ] [ ryan-c ] [ xaptah ] | 13:43 | |
| [ BrainOverfl0w ] [ fkhan ] [ JayDugger ] [ Meeh ] [ s1w ] [ xeon-enouf ] | 13:43 | |
| [ bramc ] [ fluffypony ] [ jbenet ] [ melvster ] [ SheffieldCrypto] [ Xzibit17 ] | 13:43 | |
| [ brand0 ] [ forrestv ] [ jcorgan ] [ merlincorey ] [ shesek ] [ yang ] | 13:43 | |
| [ bsm117532 ] [ GAit ] [ jeremias_ ] [ midnightmagic ] [ sl01 ] [ yang_ ] | 13:43 | |
| [ btcdrak ] [ gavinandresen ] [ jeremyrubin ] [ mikolalysenko ] [ smooth ] [ Ylbam ] | 13:43 | |
| [ Burrito ] [ ggreer ] [ jessepollak ] [ mjerr ] [ sneak ] [ yoleaux ] | 13:43 | |
| [ c0rw1n ] [ ghtdak ] [ jl2012 ] [ mm_1 ] [ snthsnth ] [ yorick ] | 13:43 | |
| [ catcow ] [ gielbier ] [ jlrubin ] [ MoALTz ] [ sparetire ] [ yrashk ] | 13:43 | |
| [ catlasshrugged] [ gmaxwell ] [ jmcn ] [ mountaingoat ] [ sparetire_ ] [ zmanian ] | 13:43 | |
| [ cfields ] [ gnusha ] [ joesmoe ] [ mr_burdell ] [ spinza ] [ zwischenzug ] | 13:43 | |
| [ cholbrow ] [ gnusha_ ] [ jonasschnelli ] [ MRL-Relay ] [ Starduster ] [ zxzzt ] | 13:43 | |
| -!- Irssi: #bitcoin-wizards: Total of 258 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 257 normal] | 13:43 | |
| !kornbluth.freenode.net [freenode-info] channel trolls and no channel staff around to help? please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp | 13:43 | |
| -!- Channel #bitcoin-wizards created Mon Feb 25 23:24:47 2013 | 13:43 | |
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| --- Log closed Sun Oct 11 00:00:53 2015 | ||
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