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| c-cex-finch | why does bitcoin 0.11.1 getinfo give ""errors":"This is a pre-release test build - use at your own risk - do not use for mining or merchant applications"" | 10:20 |
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| kinlo | c-cex-finch: did you compile it yourself or so? | 10:32 |
| c-cex-yuriy | Yes we did :) | 10:32 |
| c-cex-yuriy | Looks like we need some github option to use stable fork instead of default one | 10:33 |
| kinlo | in contrast to other software, we don't recommend building your own bitcoin, you want to use the official binaries imho :) | 10:35 |
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| bsm117532 | kanzure: interesting... | 10:38 |
| bsm117532 | I don't understand how it avoids double spending. It comes down to order of operations on a central tracker. Given multiple trackers, I could broadcast different spends to different trackers, and he doesn't indicate a way to resolve the discrepancy between trackers. Or did I miss something? | 10:40 |
| gmaxwell | c-cex-yuriy: git checkout v0.11.1 | 10:40 |
| c-cex-yuriy | cool thanks | 10:40 |
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| lmatteis | gmaxwell: apparently my Kudos idea generated lots of noise on HN and elsewhere https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10391996 | 14:52 |
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| trinity_help | hey, I was wondering, did anyone reputable ever vette the Vanitygen codebase? | 16:26 |
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| katu | trinity_help: i dont think officialy, but i presume plenty of people have seen it | 16:35 |
| trinity_help | katu: agreed, just wondering if anyone officially reviewed it | 16:36 |
| phantomcircuit | trinity_help, "officially" ? | 16:37 |
| phantomcircuit | if what your asking is whether anybody will guarantee that it works correctly.... no | 16:37 |
| katu | trinity_help: afaik some people were only surprised about the split key mining, but thats just natural property of the ec group law and is completely secure. | 16:37 |
| Luke-Jr | vanilla vanitygen doesn't even support that, does it? | 16:38 |
| trinity_help | phantomcircuit: right, I guess I'm asking specifically has anyone encountered a case where the keypair output didn't match, or was a duplicate of a keypair previously generated | 16:38 |
| phantomcircuit | i haven't seen anybody report such an error | 16:39 |
| trinity_help | admittedly I haven't either but I've only played with it casually | 16:39 |
| Luke-Jr | some day, I'd like to add vanity mining to BFGMiner.. :p | 16:39 |
| katu | trinity_help: while this is possibly the most efficient "key bruteforcer" for secp256k1 publi keys available, the search space is still too enormous to accidentally trip a collision. | 16:40 |
| trinity_help | katu: understood | 16:41 |
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| katu | Luke-Jr: i believe it does, though not sure about compressed keys | 16:48 |
| Luke-Jr | katu: pretty sure I personally contributed compressed-key support years ago | 16:50 |
| Luke-Jr | oh no, that was P2SH and never got merged https://github.com/samr7/vanitygen/pull/10 | 16:51 |
| katu | yeah, piachu takes it easy | 16:51 |
| Luke-Jr | Piachu? | 16:51 |
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| katu | the guy who wrote the thing, thepiachu. maybe he didnt want to get embroiled in the flaming surrounding p2sh back then ;> | 16:52 |
| Luke-Jr | samr7 = thepiachu? | 16:53 |
| Luke-Jr | and no, he wanted me to rewrite it to use blockchain spam | 16:53 |
| katu | :) | 16:54 |
| katu | samr7 is only maintainer, or alt account, god knows | 16:54 |
| katu | but is listed in the official thread so i trust it | 16:54 |
| Luke-Jr | anyhow, thepiachu clearly doesn't care about getting embroiled in flaming, considering all the trolling and scamcoin pumping he's been doing | 16:55 |
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| katu | i thought this is a technical channel :) but agreed, various oldtimers have .. various motivations. | 16:56 |
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| Luke-Jr | well, technically this whole conversation is off-topic, as this is a future-technology channel :P | 16:57 |
| katu | Let's discuss future of vanity addresses instead! | 16:58 |
| Luke-Jr | there's no future for a deprecated concept | 16:58 |
| trinity_help | Luke-Jr: what's deprecated about it? | 16:58 |
| Luke-Jr | #bitcoin ? | 16:59 |
| katu | honestly, i share a bit of trinity_help's worries. that vanitygen sufficiently powerful enough might trigger uber rare, but withn realm possibility fixed point in ripemd160 | 16:59 |
| katu | and second attempt to generate the prefix would yield same hash (different pk) | 16:59 |
| katu | (aka, i dont trust it to be 2^160 for second preimage, but something significantly less, plus few bits of birthday likelyhood) | 17:01 |
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| Jeremy_Rand | Am I correct in assuming that people have seen this paper from Microsoft Research on a Zerocoin construction that doesn't need trusted setup? https://eprint.iacr.org/2014/764 I'm curious if anyone has insights into whether something like it might eventually get implemented in Bitcoin. (Hope this isn't off-topic and that this is an okay place to ask.) | 19:48 |
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| gmaxwell | Jeremy_Rand: it's been brought up in here before. | 20:00 |
| gmaxwell | I don't remember it though (though I have the paper in the i've read this directory) | 20:01 |
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| gmaxwell | Jeremy_Rand: does it have proofs that are a function of the size of anonymous group? | 20:02 |
| MRL-Relay | [shen] Jeremy_Rand: seems similar in intent to something I posted yesterday that's being worked on for Monero (assuming no flaws are found) https://github.com/ShenNoether/MiniNero/blob/master/RingCT0.3.pdf | 20:02 |
| MRL-Relay | [shen] I had read it before, but somehow missed the part where they claimed non-interactivity | 20:04 |
| gmaxwell | ah yea, it sends log(n) data in the proof, and requires O(n) computation in the verifier. | 20:06 |
| Jeremy_Rand | gmaxwell: O(n) computation where n is the anonymity set? Or something else? (Sorry if I'm asking dumb questions) | 20:08 |
| gmaxwell | Jeremy_Rand: yea, in the size of the members of the ring. | 20:08 |
| gmaxwell | and IIRC the log part had a fairly big constant factor, which made it less interesting for monero style usage. | 20:09 |
| gmaxwell | I could be misremembering. | 20:09 |
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| Jeremy_Rand | gmaxwell: so for an anonymity set like Zerocoin (i.e. all coins ever minted) that would presumably be prohibitive? | 20:09 |
| gmaxwell | I wish there was a standarized table for schemes to disclose their requirements (trusted setup, communications complexity, yadda yadda) | 20:10 |
| gmaxwell | Jeremy_Rand: potentially, but if used that way there are other problems for use in bitcoin. (the perpetually growing accumulator is unfortunate) | 20:10 |
| Jeremy_Rand | gmaxwell: I see. That's unfortunate; it would be nice to see a Zerocoin/Zerocash alternative that has a good anonymity set but doesn't have the problems that those schemes come with. I suppose too good to be true? | 20:12 |
| dEBRUYNE | Jeremy_Rand: Have you read shen´s paper already? | 20:13 |
| gmaxwell | dEBRUYNE: it has a small anonymity set. | 20:14 |
| Jeremy_Rand | dEBRUYNE: I haven't seen it. My loose understanding of the stuff Monero does is that the anonymity set is much smaller than the set of all past coins? | 20:14 |
| gmaxwell | OTOH timing information often naturally makes the anonymity set small. | 20:14 |
| dEBRUYNE | Jeremy_Rand: I am not capable enough to answer that, so I´ll let shen answer that | 20:15 |
| dEBRUYNE | gmaxwell: I see | 20:16 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, i think i remember you talking about it even :) | 20:16 |
| MRL-Relay | [shen] Jeremy_Rand, currently (with visible amounts) yes, the intent of the paper is to show that we can hide amounts | 20:16 |
| gmaxwell | shen_noe: when jeremy_rand is talking about requires all coins to be of equal value. | 20:16 |
| MRL-Relay | [shen] thus the anonymity set will be all past non-linked coins | 20:16 |
| MRL-Relay | [shen] gmaxwell, exactly - with the RingCT it will remove the need for them to be of equal value | 20:17 |
| gmaxwell | shen: Your anonymity set is only the specific coins you invoke in your ring. Your potential anonymity set is larger. | 20:17 |
| Jeremy_Rand | Zerocash has a pretty nice system with regards to anonymity set and efficiency. Unfortunately I calculated the cost of using 1000 parties in the setup process... it resulted in a transcript that was terabytes in size and would take years to verify. I therefore assume the Zerocash guys are imagining a much smaller set of setup parties, maybe something like 20 or so. | 20:17 |
| gmaxwell | shen: I don't know if you ever saw my hidden value ring signature writeup, it's not as powerful as ringct though it's trivial. | 20:18 |
| MRL-Relay | [shen] gmaxwell, ah yes, may have confused terminology there | 20:18 |
| MRL-Relay | [shen] gmaxwell, I haven't but would be interested | 20:18 |
| MRL-Relay | [shen] shen.noether@gmx.com if you want to send it | 20:18 |
| gmaxwell | andytoshi: do you have the writeup for that handy? (andytoshi wrote it up, and extended it to also allow arbritary smart contracts) | 20:19 |
| gmaxwell | Jeremy_Rand: also _much_ stronger cryptographic assumptions; pairing, KoE, etc. | 20:19 |
| Jeremy_Rand | gmaxwell: yes, agreed. My understanding is that KoE has been studied for circa 20 years, though? (But not widely deployed in something where breaking it earns money) | 20:20 |
| gmaxwell | Jeremy_Rand: _pairing_ is only about 15 years old. | 20:21 |
| Jeremy_Rand | ah, wasn't aware of that | 20:21 |
| gmaxwell | And there is a lot that hasn't been studied; e.g. people assuming that it's secure if the transfer group is large enough so that it's strong as a regular integer DL group; but all the schemes for picking efficient pairing friendly groups result in very specially structured p^k groups.. maybe DL is easier in these groups? Dunno if anyone has looked. Making it the center of a cryptocurrency where | 20:23 |
| gmaxwell | its compromise results in undetectable inflation ... kinda scarry! | 20:23 |
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| gmaxwell | Personally, I've been frusrtated by my failed efforts so far to find a way to take CT to perfect soundness. | 20:23 |
| gmaxwell | I think that for inflation resistance lack of perfect soundness is a bigger barrier than 'modest' efficiency differences. | 20:24 |
| Jeremy_Rand | yeah. Makes sense. | 20:24 |
| Jeremy_Rand | In some cases (not really Bitcoin), it might possibly make sense to make all zerocoins expire periodically, along with all basecoins that have a zerocoin taint? That way zerocoin inflation is less profitable | 20:26 |
| gmaxwell | I know with bitcoin I've had somewhat frequent questions (less commonly in the last year though) "What if the system's creator secretly mined a billion bitcoin for himself!?!" ... would be harder if that didn't have a nice answer. | 20:27 |
| Jeremy_Rand | (I'm thinking of non-currency-oriented coins like Namecoin, where if someone can register a bunch of names on the cheap, that's somewhat less damaging than in a currency system) | 20:27 |
| gmaxwell | Jeremy_Rand: yes, thats also an answer to the evergrowing accumulator issue, just expire accumulators. | 20:27 |
| gmaxwell | Jeremy_Rand: yea, exactly ... I'd really like to see for of these bleeding edge protocols deployed in cases that where compromise is somewhat less devistating. | 20:29 |
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| Jeremy_Rand | gmaxwell: fyi, I happen to be a Namecoin developer :) We're interested in Zerocash, but not totally sold on it. If someone can get a bunch of cheap names, that's not really that devastating. | 20:30 |
| gmaxwell | Jeremy_Rand: I'd think that the zerocash functionality would be the least interesting thing to improve about namecoin. :P | 20:31 |
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| gmaxwell | Like, SPV mode, and blinding the registrations so people can't trawl through the database looking for things that offend them would be higher on my priority list. :) | 20:31 |
| Jeremy_Rand | gmaxwell: certainly a lot is improvable. I've seen your "Namecoin that sucks less" list a while back :) | 20:31 |
| gmaxwell | I spent a while trying to think about how one could have commited names (e.g. you register H(name)) but also disallow typosquatting. | 20:32 |
| Jeremy_Rand | gmaxwell: wouldn't hashing names just be security by obscurity since you could brute force or rainbow-table the system? Something like scrypt might prevent that but has its own problems | 20:33 |
| Jeremy_Rand | and if a name is sufficiently high entropy that you can't brute force it... doesn't that make it probably not memorable? | 20:34 |
| gmaxwell | Jeremy_Rand: you could do that, but if a name is obscure then you won't find it-- basically avoiding the hidden service enumeration problem that tor has suffered from. It also improves plausable denyability for miners ("I'm going to sue you because you let this dude register MyNameTM.bit"). | 20:35 |
| gmaxwell | I think there is a pretty big gap between easily bruteforcable and totally non-memorable; and thats also up to the users. if they pick a sufficiently non-guessable name, they get a private registration as a side effect. | 20:36 |
| Jeremy_Rand | gmaxwell: yeah, true | 20:37 |
| Jeremy_Rand | gmaxwell: it might make sense to allow the blinding to be optional? So if you want your name to be public knowledge, you can provide the cleartext; if not, you can provide a hash only? | 20:38 |
| Jeremy_Rand | Other thing is that public names make filtering by prefix easy. Which is useful in some cases. | 20:39 |
| gmaxwell | I think part of my goal on doing that was to avoid having any plaintext data in the blockchain, because it's a risk to the system. (some dim bulb fills the data records with taylor swift albums and then every node is getting taken down with DMCA requests). To avoid that you have H(name) be the key and H2(name) be an encryption key for the results records. | 20:40 |
| Jeremy_Rand | gmaxwell: yes. If that's the goal, what happens when someone registers the name H("x") or some other trivially low-entropy name? Is a Taylor Swift album encrypted with a 1-byte-of-entropy key considered to be DMCA-able? | 20:42 |
| gmaxwell | Jeremy_Rand: evidence suggests that it may not be (at least in the limited vaguely applicable case law, but it's hard to say!). | 20:43 |
| gmaxwell | But ignoring that you could also make it optional, ... the only real disadvantage I'd come up with for that was that with public names rejecting typo squatting is much easier. | 20:44 |
| Jeremy_Rand | gmaxwell: oh? I looked briefly for such case law a while back but I couldn't find anything obvious. Do you happen to remember what evidence you saw? | 20:44 |
| Jeremy_Rand | gmaxwell: for rejecting typo squatting, why not have the DNS server transform typos into a canonical form before looking it up? That seems to be the easy way to do it, rather than doing so in advance via name validation rules. | 20:46 |
| gmaxwell | Jeremy_Rand: I can go ask, wasn't my research. if you'll be on sometime next week. | 20:46 |
| Jeremy_Rand | gmaxwell: I can try to be online next week, yes | 20:47 |
| gmaxwell | Jeremy_Rand: I am not following what you're thinking there.. how does the server know which of wikipedia and wikiedia is canonical? | 20:47 |
| Jeremy_Rand | gmaxwell: ah, yeah, so if two people register names that collide, you need a way to disambiguate. You could pick the one that was registered first. Expirations make this more complicated, I'm not sure if it's possible. | 20:48 |
| Jeremy_Rand | I guess that doesn't help for "wikiedia" | 20:49 |
| Jeremy_Rand | but for a substitution of homographs or something, it would work, I think | 20:49 |
| gmaxwell | right and what I suggest is that registration of "too near" names just not be allowed. (there are many candidate algorithims for this) | 20:49 |
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| Jeremy_Rand | you could hypothetically use a zk-SNARK to solve it. Except then you have trusted setup and crazy crypto assumptions. | 20:50 |
| gmaxwell | for the really awful unicode ones (e.g. visually indistinguishable fake names) resolver canonicalization can work. | 20:50 |
| gmaxwell | Sure but who cares about trusted setup and crazy assumptions when it's only used for nearness matching. :) | 20:50 |
| gmaxwell | thats exactly the kind of thing I think we should use that stuff for first.. :) | 20:51 |
| Jeremy_Rand | true, that seems like a lot of effort for an attacker for a pretty small payoff | 20:51 |
| gmaxwell | right and if at the end it loses nearness matching, and the world learns the cryptosystem is weaker than expected.. great. | 20:51 |
| Jeremy_Rand | indeed. | 20:51 |
| Jeremy_Rand | I guess a zk-SNARK would also be a good way to prove that the data attached to a name is actually encrypted with a key that hashes to the name? | 20:53 |
| Jeremy_Rand | or is there a simpler way that I'm failing to think of? | 20:53 |
| gmaxwell | yea, thats what I was thinking before, I think.. so you can prove that it is encrypted by doing the p2sh^2 thing... which is kinda lame. E.g. double encrypt it and prove the outer encryption by revealing the outer key but not saving it. | 20:55 |
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| Jeremy_Rand | gmaxwell: wouldn't that let someone reveal outer encrypted data that might not actually be encrypted? Or am I confused about what you're suggesting? | 20:56 |
| gmaxwell | the inner encryption might not actually be an encryption, but you wouldn't be saving the key, and would have no ability to lookup or decode the potentially unlawful content on your own. | 20:59 |
| Jeremy_Rand | actually, backing up, I'm not sure that a zk-SNARK could prove lack of "too near" names without knowledge of what the other names are. That sounds like it shouldn't be possible. | 20:59 |
| gmaxwell | Hm didn't I just comment on this? maybe I didn't send that line. | 21:00 |
| gmaxwell | Jeremy_Rand: the way you would do this is you would reveal a fingerprint used for nearness testing, and prove its valid. So you leak some information about the name, but not the name itself. | 21:01 |
| Jeremy_Rand | gmaxwell: ah, I see. Yes, I guess that could be workable. | 21:02 |
| gmaxwell | e.g. if you cared about sounds-alike names you'd reveal the soundex value, for example. | 21:02 |
| Jeremy_Rand | would be interesting | 21:03 |
| Jeremy_Rand | gmaxwell: anyway, thanks for the nice comments. I'll hopefully stick around here. :) | 21:11 |
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| --- Log closed Sun Oct 18 00:00:00 2015 | ||
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