| --- Log opened Tue Oct 20 00:00:01 2015 | ||
| -!- xabbix [~xabbix@unaffiliated/xabbix] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:00 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p20030089EA11443EB1F546340EB51669.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 00:00 | |
| -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:02 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@c-24-18-226-84.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:02 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p20030089EA11443EB1F546340EB51669.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:12 | |
| -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p5B209E67.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:13 | |
| -!- nivah [~linker@115.79.55.177] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:18 | |
| -!- chris13243 [~chris@107.25.224.111] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:19 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 00:19 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 00:21 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] | 00:26 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000_ [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 00:27 | |
| -!- chris13243 [~chris@107.25.224.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 00:35 | |
| -!- crowleyman [~crowleyma@213.231.47.17.pool.breezein.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:38 | |
| -!- xabbix [~xabbix@unaffiliated/xabbix] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 00:40 | |
| -!- ebfull [~sean@73.34.119.0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:40 | |
| -!- yang [yang@freenode/sponsor/fsf.member.yang] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 00:55 | |
| -!- chris13243 [~chris@108.121.57.135] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:57 | |
| -!- bendavenport [~bpd@c-50-131-42-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bendavenport] | 00:57 | |
| -!- chris13243 [~chris@108.121.57.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 01:03 | |
| -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:04 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@c-24-18-226-84.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 01:20 | |
| -!- bit2017 [~linker@210.245.34.191] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:29 | |
| -!- hazirafel [~hazirafel@176.106.227.34] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:32 | |
| -!- nivah [~linker@115.79.55.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 01:33 | |
| -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:46 | |
| -!- c0rw|zZz is now known as c0rw1n | 01:52 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE__ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:53 | |
| -!- forrestv [forrestv@unaffiliated/forrestv] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] | 01:59 | |
| -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:06 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:10 | |
| -!- Londe2 [~Londe@cpe-104-32-148-17.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Londe2] | 02:10 | |
| -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:18 | |
| -!- bedeho [~bedeho@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 02:21 | |
| -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Excess Flood] | 02:21 | |
| -!- hazirafel [~hazirafel@176.106.227.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 02:22 | |
| -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:29 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE__ is now known as dEBRUYNE | 02:35 | |
| -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Excess Flood] | 02:39 | |
| -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:43 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:48 | |
| -!- jtimon [~quassel@212.Red-88-5-10.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:56 | |
| -!- p15 [~p15@77.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 03:00 | |
| -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Excess Flood] | 03:02 | |
| -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:07 | |
| -!- Jaamg [jhpiloma@gateway/shell/tkk.fi/x-ldpjxdedsusbnhfm] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:12 | |
| -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@179.43.177.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:16 | |
| -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Excess Flood] | 03:28 | |
| -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:32 | |
| -!- Myagui [Myagui@shell.xshellz.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 03:33 | |
| -!- Myagui [Myagui@shell.xshellz.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:40 | |
| -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 03:46 | |
| -!- hazirafel [~hazirafel@bzq-79-182-178-75.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:47 | |
| -!- chris13243 [~chris@174-144-5-103.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:49 | |
| -!- gielbier [~giel____@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has quit [Changing host] | 04:06 | |
| -!- gielbier [~giel____@unaffiliated/gielbier] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:06 | |
| -!- yang [yang@freenode/sponsor/fsf.member.yang] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:22 | |
| -!- chris13243 [~chris@174-144-5-103.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 04:24 | |
| -!- crescendo [~mozart@unaffiliated/crescendo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 04:30 | |
| -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Excess Flood] | 04:52 | |
| -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:58 | |
| -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:59 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 05:00 | |
| -!- sneak [~sneak@unaffiliated/sneak] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] | 05:03 | |
| -!- sneak [~sneak@unaffiliated/sneak] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:04 | |
| -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:04 | |
| -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 05:10 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:13 | |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-108-150.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:16 | |
| -!- jaromil [~jaromil@f1x.eu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 05:18 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 05:21 | |
| -!- K1773R [~K1773R@unaffiliated/k1773r] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:22 | |
| -!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 05:24 | |
| -!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:25 | |
| -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:29 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 05:32 | |
| -!- airbreather [~airbreath@d149-67-99-43.nap.wideopenwest.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:33 | |
| -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@179.43.177.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 05:38 | |
| -!- bit2017 [~linker@210.245.34.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 05:39 | |
| -!- crowleyman [~crowleyma@213.231.47.17.pool.breezein.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] | 05:41 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:54 | |
| -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/erasmospunk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:12 | |
| -!- sparetire_ [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:20 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:21 | |
| OxADADA | mornin | 06:28 |
|---|---|---|
| -!- nivah [~linker@171.232.51.106] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:29 | |
| -!- hazirafel [~hazirafel@bzq-79-182-178-75.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 06:34 | |
| -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] | 06:35 | |
| -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:35 | |
| -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-36-133-241-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:41 | |
| -!- helo_ is now known as helo | 06:45 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] | 06:52 | |
| -!- aburan28 [~xypher@static-108-45-93-78.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:00 | |
| -!- c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|away | 07:01 | |
| Kireji | OxADADA: g'mornin | 07:04 |
| -!- hazirafel [~hazirafel@bzq-79-182-178-75.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:06 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:07 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:09 | |
| -!- Kireji [~nospam@unaffiliated/kireji] has quit [Quit: leaving] | 07:15 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 07:15 | |
| -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/erasmospunk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 07:16 | |
| -!- hazirafel [~hazirafel@bzq-79-182-178-75.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 07:17 | |
| -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@179.43.177.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:18 | |
| -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:18 | |
| -!- Pugg [Elite11832@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-jjhfmieobgkcwtca] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:21 | |
| -!- Kireji [~nospam@unaffiliated/kireji] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:23 | |
| -!- c0rw|awa_ [~c0rw1n@162.84-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:24 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:25 | |
| -!- c0rw|away [~c0rw1n@162.84-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 07:26 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 07:29 | |
| -!- hazirafel [~hazirafel@bzq-79-182-178-75.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:39 | |
| -!- MrHodl [~fuc@95.211.224.48] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:46 | |
| -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 07:51 | |
| -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@wired018.math.utah.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:54 | |
| -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50.232.225.10] has quit [Quit: bye bye~] | 07:56 | |
| -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50.232.225.10] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:56 | |
| -!- bsm1175321 [~bsm117532@38.121.165.30] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:02 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:04 | |
| -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@74-95-207-205-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:07 | |
| -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 08:11 | |
| -!- TD-Linux [~Thomas@about/essy/indecisive/TD-Linux] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 08:12 | |
| -!- TD-Linux [~Thomas@about/essy/indecisive/TD-Linux] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:15 | |
| -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50.232.225.10] has quit [Quit: bye bye~] | 08:20 | |
| -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50.232.225.10] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:21 | |
| -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p5B209E67.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] | 08:24 | |
| -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:27 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@75-170-22-58.eugn.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:31 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:38 | |
| -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye] | 08:40 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:43 | |
| -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p5B209E67.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:51 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Quit: Quitte] | 08:53 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand__ [~jeremy@172.56.14.31] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:54 | |
| -!- paci [~paci@host41-233-static.58-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:56 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand__ is now known as Jeremy_Rand | 09:03 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand [~jeremy@172.56.14.31] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] | 09:03 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand [~jeremy@172.56.14.31] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:03 | |
| -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:10 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@75-170-22-58.eugn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 09:17 | |
| -!- bendavenport [~bpd@96.90.231.161] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:18 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@75-170-22-58.eugn.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:19 | |
| -!- weex [~weex@fsf/member/weex] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 09:21 | |
| -!- mdavid613 [~Adium@cpe-104-172-191-85.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:24 | |
| -!- mdavid613 is now known as mdavid | 09:24 | |
| -!- mdavid is now known as mdavid613 | 09:25 | |
| -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@74-95-207-205-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] | 09:37 | |
| -!- MrHodl [~fuc@95.211.224.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 09:37 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:41 | |
| -!- mkarrer_ [~mkarrer@165.Red-83-55-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:46 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand [~jeremy@172.56.14.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 09:49 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand [~jeremy@172.56.14.31] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:49 | |
| -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 09:50 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand_ [~jeremy@172.56.15.244] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:57 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand [~jeremy@172.56.14.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] | 09:58 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p20030089EA11443EB1F546340EB51669.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 10:03 | |
| -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p5B209E67.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 10:06 | |
| -!- eudoxia_ [~eudoxia@r167-56-32-71.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:06 | |
| -!- eudoxia_ [~eudoxia@r167-56-32-71.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] | 10:07 | |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-108-150.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 10:10 | |
| -!- bildramer [~bildramer@p4FE649E1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 10:11 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand_ is now known as Jeremy_Rand | 10:13 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand [~jeremy@172.56.15.244] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] | 10:13 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand [~jeremy@172.56.15.244] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:14 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@c-24-18-226-84.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:21 | |
| -!- hazirafel [~hazirafel@bzq-79-182-178-75.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 10:22 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand [~jeremy@172.56.15.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 10:25 | |
| -!- CodeShark [CodeShark@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:26 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:26 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@c-24-18-226-84.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 10:28 | |
| -!- StephenM347 [~stephenm3@static-64-223-246-218.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:35 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 10:37 | |
| -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p5B209E67.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:38 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p20030089EA11443EB1F546340EB51669.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:38 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p20030089EA11443EB1F546340EB51669.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 10:41 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p20030089EA11443EB1F546340EB51669.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:41 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@75-170-22-58.eugn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 10:43 | |
| -!- xaptah [kaptah@hilla.kapsi.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 10:44 | |
| -!- bedeho [~bedeho@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:46 | |
| -!- bildramer [~bildramer@p4FE649E1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:49 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:50 | |
| -!- kaptah [kaptah@hilla.kapsi.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:52 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Quit: Quitte] | 10:53 | |
| -!- kyuupichan [~Neil@ae053102.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 11:07 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand_ [~jeremy@172.56.14.120] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:15 | |
| -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@173.239.75.179] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:22 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] | 11:24 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand_ is now known as Jeremy_Rand | 11:30 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand [~jeremy@172.56.14.120] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] | 11:31 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand [~jeremy@172.56.14.120] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:31 | |
| -!- chris13243 [~chris@72-62-156-216.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:32 | |
| -!- OxADADA [~OxADADA@alumni-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] | 11:45 | |
| -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p5B209E67.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 11:45 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p20030089EA11443EB1F546340EB51669.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 11:48 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@c-24-18-226-84.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:48 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand_ [~jeremy@172.56.15.183] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:48 | |
| -!- Yoghur114 [~jorn@g227014.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:49 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand [~jeremy@172.56.14.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 11:51 | |
| -!- mkarrer_ [~mkarrer@165.Red-83-55-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 11:51 | |
| -!- ens [~ens@haileris.dyndns.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:54 | |
| -!- chris13243 [~chris@72-62-156-216.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 11:56 | |
| -!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:01 | |
| -!- aburan28 [~xypher@static-108-45-93-78.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 12:01 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand_ [~jeremy@172.56.15.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 12:04 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand_ [~jeremy@172.56.15.183] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:05 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@c-24-18-226-84.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] | 12:06 | |
| -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wwmzveanproygckg] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:09 | |
| -!- chris13243 [~chris@68-26-103-60.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:14 | |
| -!- bedeho [~bedeho@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 12:16 | |
| -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 12:27 | |
| -!- bedeho [~bedeho@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:32 | |
| -!- jmcn [~jamie@76.57.114.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 12:37 | |
| -!- jmcn [~jamie@76.57.114.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:37 | |
| -!- kgk_ [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:39 | |
| -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:40 | |
| -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:40 | |
| -!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 12:40 | |
| -!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:41 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand_ [~jeremy@172.56.15.183] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 12:41 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:42 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand_ [~jeremy@172.56.15.183] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:42 | |
| -!- bedeho [~bedeho@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 12:42 | |
| -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 12:45 | |
| -!- bedeho [~bedeho@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:46 | |
| -!- chris13243 [~chris@68-26-103-60.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 12:46 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p5B209E67.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:48 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p5B209E67.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 12:53 | |
| katu | https://gist.github.com/katlogic/8337fa32bc43bca4a26d | 12:58 |
| katu | can somebody comment if this makes sense? | 12:58 |
| katu | (abusing montgomery curves for fast ECS) | 12:59 |
| kanzure | .title https://gist.github.com/katlogic/8337fa32bc43bca4a26d | 13:00 |
| yoleaux | ecfast.md · GitHub | 13:00 |
| -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:03 | |
| -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@173.239.75.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 13:05 | |
| kanzure | .title https://briansmith.org/GFp-0 | 13:07 |
| yoleaux | kanzure: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page. | 13:07 |
| kanzure | "Ideas for a new elliptic curve library" | 13:07 |
| -!- CodeShark [CodeShark@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 13:10 | |
| -!- phantomcircuit [~phantomci@strateman.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:11 | |
| katu | sounds like a good idea overall. abuse operator overloading in lua or python for DSL scripts of curve definitions, make it emit appropiate C code | 13:12 |
| -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:14 | |
| gmaxwell | katu: your signatures do not pass verification. | 13:14 |
| katu | gmaxwell: they dont? :( | 13:15 |
| katu | note that it has to be unmasked (while posshibly keeping the cofactor 8 constraints, ie keep lower 3 bits cleared, though not sure that is mandatory for this use) | 13:16 |
| katu | otherwise there is no commutativity necessary for the commitment to work. | 13:17 |
| -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 13:19 | |
| gmaxwell | I think you're mistaking the operation of curve25519(), it is not addition. | 13:21 |
| katu | let me write a PoC :) | 13:22 |
| -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: bbiab] | 13:24 | |
| gmaxwell | What you're describing is this relation; (h()*(x-h()))G == xG which is clearly untrue. | 13:27 |
| -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50.232.225.10] has quit [Quit: ZZZzzz…] | 13:28 | |
| -!- StephenM347 [~stephenm3@static-64-223-246-218.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [] | 13:31 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 13:39 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand_ [~jeremy@172.56.15.183] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 13:39 | |
| -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:40 | |
| -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50.232.225.10] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:42 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand_ [~jeremy@172.56.15.183] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:42 | |
| -!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 13:47 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)] | 13:49 | |
| katu | gmaxwell: you're right, turns out they're only semi-commutative :( | 13:57 |
| katu | ie curve25519(30, curve25519(10, curve25519(20, G))) == curve25519(30, curve25519(20, curve25519(10, G))) holds | 13:57 |
| katu | but curve25519(10, curve25519(20, G)) == curve25519(10, curve25519(10, curve25519(10, G))) does not | 13:57 |
| katu | oh well, now its obvious why its used only for dh | 13:57 |
| gmaxwell | katu: you can sign just fine with that function, though you need an additional add. | 13:58 |
| katu | yep | 13:58 |
| katu | larger signature | 13:58 |
| gmaxwell | katu: you're making a mistake of thinking the curve is "additive only" -- there is no such thing. (or rather, depending on how you define it, every curve is 'additive only') | 13:58 |
| katu | gmaxwell: by that i mean i cant supply multiplier modulo group order to "substract" | 13:59 |
| gmaxwell | you most certantly can. | 13:59 |
| katu | oh | 14:00 |
| * katu had all the assumption about x-only 25519 wrong :) | 14:00 | |
| gmaxwell | doesn't help that a lot of people (including DJB) explain things in a confusing manner. | 14:00 |
| -!- OxADADA [~OxADADA@alumni-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:02 | |
| -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 14:02 | |
| -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:03 | |
| -!- bedeho [~bedeho@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 14:03 | |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, a merkle sum tree could be implemented as a soft forking change today right? | 14:05 |
| katu | gmaxwell: curve25519(50, curve25519(50, G)) == curve25519((-100)%ORDER, curve25519(200, G) | 14:05 |
| katu | does not hold :( | 14:05 |
| katu | with order 7237005577332262213973186563042994240857116359379907606001950938285454250989 | 14:05 |
| -!- CodeShark [~CodeShark@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:06 | |
| andytoshi | katu: the LHS of what you wrote should be 2500G, no? | 14:06 |
| phantomcircuit | maaku, the best generic commitments scheme we've come up with is still putting a commitment in the last transaction right? | 14:07 |
| andytoshi | but the RHS is -20000G (assuming i add a close-paren at the end of your message | 14:07 |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:07 | |
| gmaxwell | curve25519() is a multiplication, to invert that you need the modular inverse. | 14:07 |
| maaku | phantomcircuit: soft-fork yes | 14:07 |
| maaku | but it's a non-invasive hard fork to do better -- make the right-branch from the root of the merkle tree the commitment | 14:08 |
| phantomcircuit | maaku, right that's what i meant | 14:08 |
| katu | andytoshi: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/katlogic/8ae910026d041fda927a/raw/f9f765937803e7d5c6af68db8c5b00cb0febb523/25519.py | 14:08 |
| katu | is what i'm using | 14:08 |
| -!- bsm1175321 [~bsm117532@38.121.165.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 14:08 | |
| maaku | phantomcircuit: i would be severely disappointed and lose faith in this process if something as uncontroversial as that didn't make it into whatever block size hard fork comes out of this | 14:09 |
| katu | it does modular inverse after each call to curve25519() | 14:09 |
| phantomcircuit | maaku, my interest is in whether the merkle sum trees could be soft forked in with a reasonable commitment scheme | 14:09 |
| gmaxwell | katu: you are computing 100*G on the lefthand side, and your right hand should be either 100G or 200*(1/2)G (or 3618502788666131106986593281521497120428558179689953803000975469142727125495G assuming the order you gave above is correct). | 14:09 |
| -!- poppingtonic1 [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:10 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand_ [~jeremy@172.56.15.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 14:10 | |
| gmaxwell | e.g. in sage | 14:10 |
| gmaxwell | sage: (FiniteField(7237005577332262213973186563042994240857116359379907606001950938285454250989)(200))*3618502788666131106986593281521497120428558179689953803000975469142727125495 | 14:10 |
| gmaxwell | 100 | 14:10 |
| maaku | best non-fork: last 32 bytes of last output of coinbase. best soft-fork: last 32 bytes of last output of last transaction (soft-fork only needed to guarantee output is available for miner to spend). best hard-fork: right-branch from root of merkle tree (transactions left, commitments right) | 14:10 |
| -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 14:11 | |
| -!- poppingtonic1 is now known as poppingtonic | 14:11 | |
| phantomcircuit | maaku, actually im not sure that what i was thinking is even useful | 14:12 |
| phantomcircuit | i was thinking that you might be able to get the incentives right for utxo commitments with a sum tree, but actually im not sure you could | 14:13 |
| phantomcircuit | instead of inserting fake entires into the commitment an attacker can simply replace all the scriptPubKey's | 14:14 |
| -!- bedeho [~bedeho@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:15 | |
| katu | just for clarity (if theres any with treating 25519 as blackbox), gmaxwell, andytoshi :curve25519(2500, G) == curve25519(50, curve25519(50, G)) | 14:15 |
| katu | curse you djb and your confusing explanations | 14:15 |
| -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 14:16 | |
| CodeShark | phantomcircuit: just got here - what are you trying to accomplish? | 14:16 |
| CodeShark | sum trees over outputs? | 14:18 |
| CodeShark | that do not require checking signatures? | 14:19 |
| phantomcircuit | CodeShark, sum tree over the utxo set commitment plus sum tree over the blocks would enable proving false inflation | 14:19 |
| phantomcircuit | but it doesn't help with proving that the utxo commitment has the right pubkey scripts | 14:20 |
| CodeShark | that would require checking signatures, no? | 14:21 |
| CodeShark | at the very least | 14:21 |
| phantomcircuit | replacing the pubkey scripts? | 14:21 |
| phantomcircuit | no because they can also give a fake txid:index pair | 14:21 |
| phantomcircuit | and now you need to prove that the txid:index doesn't appear in the blockchain | 14:22 |
| CodeShark | hence "at the very least" - you also need to prove the outputs are spendable | 14:22 |
| CodeShark | right | 14:22 |
| CodeShark | can we do better than O(n) for such a proof, n being the blockchain length? | 14:23 |
| phantomcircuit | i dont think so | 14:23 |
| phantomcircuit | well maybe we can with a hard fork | 14:23 |
| * phantomcircuit goes to look something up | 14:24 | |
| andytoshi | katu: that's correct. can you link to djb's explanation of this? | 14:27 |
| phantomcircuit | CodeShark, no i dont think you can | 14:28 |
| katu | andytoshi: 'ensure ``contributory'' behavior' ... just ^f contributory in http://cr.yp.to/ecdh.html | 14:29 |
| phantomcircuit | proving that a transaction traces back to a coinbase can be done in less than n but is hardly compact | 14:29 |
| CodeShark | you could do a probabilistic proof that fails on occasion, perhaps | 14:29 |
| phantomcircuit | but i dont see how you can prove that a transaction was never valid | 14:29 |
| katu | i'm curious now why ed25519 then (which uses y and conversion to jacobian representation, and is thus a bit more complicated) | 14:29 |
| katu | as it seems montgomery 25519 is ok for signing | 14:30 |
| phantomcircuit | CodeShark, im not sure a probabilistic proof is useful, probabilistic validation which generates absolute proofs are but not probabilistic proofs | 14:30 |
| phantomcircuit | :) | 14:30 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, am i missing something obvious? | 14:31 |
| andytoshi | katu: i'm confused what coordinates have to do with ECDH at all | 14:31 |
| phantomcircuit | (i ask because i know you've thought about fraud proofs a bunch) | 14:31 |
| maaku | phantomcircuit: fraud proofs are SPV security. | 14:31 |
| maaku | am I missing something? I'm not sure what you're aiming for | 14:31 |
| CodeShark | SPV = proof of existence of something with a certain amount of PoW? | 14:33 |
| katu | andytoshi: the two implementations (edwards vs montgomery), but montgomery only with x/z axis seems far simpler / faster to implement | 14:33 |
| maaku | SPV = "assume >50% hashrate is honest" | 14:33 |
| maaku | or perhaps more strictly "no single colluding carte with >50% hashrate" | 14:34 |
| CodeShark | hmmm - so SPV can also include proving that a UTXO does not exist given the assumption that >50% of hashrate is honest? | 14:34 |
| maaku | CodeShark: sure, have a proof against the commitment in the prior block | 14:34 |
| phantomcircuit | maaku, the goal is that fraud proofs can be provided by any full node not just the miners | 14:35 |
| CodeShark | and by "honest" we actually mean "actually validates the blocks it publishes and only publishes valid blocks" right? | 14:35 |
| CodeShark | we're ignoring block withholding attacks or other such things | 14:36 |
| phantomcircuit | maaku, consider that the incentives work because full nodes call bullshit if miners try to do anything pshishy, now consider how many people are using spv clients and what that does to the networks incentive model | 14:37 |
| andytoshi | katu: that page is really hard to understand. | 14:38 |
| andytoshi | i'm not certain what me means by "contributory behaviour", though i infer it somehow means "behaviour that does not involve sending low-order points", but his claim that this is irrelevant to DH i think is just wrong | 14:39 |
| phantomcircuit | maaku, i can see how to do a fraud proof with two utxo commitments and the block | 14:39 |
| andytoshi | oh, no, it's not wrong if you're just using the DH secret as a shared secret | 14:39 |
| phantomcircuit | which would be an improvement on spv | 14:39 |
| phantomcircuit | but is still not quite as strong as a full node | 14:40 |
| andytoshi | i don't know what it means for a protocol to be "unusual" either. the use of that word sounds like really non-adversarial thinking | 14:40 |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 14:42 | |
| maaku | I'm not sure I see the need to incentivise broadcasts of fraud proofs? | 14:43 |
| maaku | Pretty much everyone has an indirect incentive to share fraud proofs of candidate blocks. | 14:43 |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:44 | |
| maaku | Maybe I'm being dense. | 14:44 |
| CodeShark | tragedy of the commons | 14:46 |
| CodeShark | "I'll let someone else do that" | 14:47 |
| -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 14:47 | |
| CodeShark | if that "someone else" is a very small number and it is possible to discover the identities, all sorts of potentially ugly scenarios are possible | 14:48 |
| -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:48 | |
| maaku | CodeShark: well in a probabalistic future presumably that's what everyone is doing. | 14:48 |
| maaku | checking some subset of the utxoset, and relaying fraud proofs | 14:48 |
| maaku | *probabalistic validation future | 14:48 |
| phantomcircuit | maaku, im more interested in making the fraud proofs as compact and complete as possible | 14:48 |
| kanzure | reducing the number of necessary fraud proof types is very useful thing to do | 14:49 |
| phantomcircuit | i dont see any way to prove that the entries in a utxo commitment have false indexes (if we assume someone is willing to get lots of hashing power to generate say 100 blocks in a row that build on the false commitments) | 14:49 |
| phantomcircuit | kanzure, unfortunately it seems like lots and lots are needed | 14:50 |
| phantomcircuit | bbl | 14:50 |
| -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.39.224.226] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:54 | |
| -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.39.224.226] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] | 14:54 | |
| maaku | phantomcircuit: the roots won't match, no? | 14:55 |
| maaku | phantomcircuit: it will come down to spending txid that doesn't exist in the prior commitment or something like that, and a full node could prove that it doesn't exist | 14:55 |
| kanzure | there have been some proposals that included a rolling window or pruning or something.. when you design the window to be too short/small, you open up various grinding attacks. not sure if this is what phantomcircuit was talking about. | 14:56 |
| -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@wired018.math.utah.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 14:56 | |
| gmaxwell | andytoshi: the argument that it's unnecessary is that the low order points are few enough that you cannot use them to extract secret data. | 14:57 |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 14:57 | |
| phantomcircuit | maaku, that's right the roots won't match but to calculate the root you need to have the full block data between the commitments | 15:05 |
| phantomcircuit | if you can prove that the commitment is fake with less than the full block data between it and the previous commitment | 15:05 |
| phantomcircuit | then we're talking | 15:05 |
| CodeShark | by fake you mean "spends an output that either doesn't exist or has already been spent"? | 15:07 |
| katu | andytoshi: chance of hitting em is astronomically low assuming there's no external malleable factor (i suppose on has to be careful when compositing n-of-m signatures in ecschnorr) | 15:09 |
| gmaxwell | katu: the chance of hitting them is _1_ if someone sends you one. | 15:10 |
| -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@179.43.177.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 15:11 | |
| gmaxwell | Thats the same kind of incompetent reasoning that results in pratical vulnerabilities in other ECDH implementations; in this case it's okay (because you don't get enough choices of low order to learn much about the private key), but not because the chance of hitting them is low. | 15:11 |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-139-225.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:17 | |
| -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 15:18 | |
| -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 15:18 | |
| -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:18 | |
| -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 15:26 | |
| -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:27 | |
| phantomcircuit | CodeShark, i specifically mean, replaces a valid entry in the UTXO with an invalid entry (thus preserving the merkle sum tree values) | 15:27 |
| phantomcircuit | for example | 15:27 |
| phantomcircuit | you have an entry which is a valid unspent outpoint and the correct amount and script pubkey | 15:27 |
| phantomcircuit | the attacker replaces that with a non existent outpoint (ie random txid) and the correct amount and the attackers script pubkey | 15:27 |
| phantomcircuit | you can prove they lied only be providing all of the blocks between the last utxo commitment and that block | 15:28 |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-32-71.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:28 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 15:28 | |
| phantomcircuit | which isn't as good as a full node which trusts nothing | 15:28 |
| phantomcircuit | gavinand1esen, solve that and i wont oppose much larger blocks | 15:29 |
| katu | gmaxwell: yes, luckily djb gave quite clear instructions in that regard - "check your base point input that they're not a twist or trivial order generator" | 15:29 |
| katu | gmaxwell: or have i missed something and the pathological cases are not easy to detect (low 3 bits for twist, and 2 constants for the other small orders) | 15:30 |
| -!- sipa [~pw@2a02:348:86:3011::1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:31 | |
| gmaxwell | katu: what? that page _specifically_ tells you to do no verification of input points. (which is actually fine, but for other reasons) | 15:31 |
| gmaxwell | "How do I validate Curve25519 public keys? | 15:32 |
| gmaxwell | Don't. " | 15:32 |
| katu | gmaxwell: read further about the bit munging | 15:32 |
| katu | and what to do if you remove it | 15:32 |
| gmaxwell | katu: I'm not following your comments. The page is completely, blood flowing from eyes, clear. | 15:33 |
| gmaxwell | The only bit operations discussed on that page are related to secret key generation. | 15:34 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, i think if there was blood flowing from my eyes i'd have trouble seeing it too | 15:37 |
| * phantomcircuit runs away | 15:37 | |
| sipa | have you actually tried that? | 15:38 |
| CodeShark | you have blood vessels always right on your retina but you don't see them because the retina only senses changes | 15:38 |
| sipa | that is by no means equivalent to "blood flowing from eyes" :p | 15:39 |
| CodeShark | the blood vessels carry blood away from the eyes, so in a sense it is :p | 15:39 |
| sipa | ok, you win! | 15:39 |
| CodeShark | :) | 15:40 |
| sipa | arguable, in a very relevant way: if those vessels weren't pumping blood away, things on that page would go very unclear rapidly | 15:40 |
| phantomcircuit | sipa, i've actually gotten lots of fake bloof in my eyes before | 15:40 |
| phantomcircuit | 0/10 would not recommend | 15:40 |
| -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 15:40 | |
| -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:41 | |
| katu | gmaxwell: i mean the 'In those protocols, you should reject the 32-byte strings' part. i presume he's talking about public keys. | 15:42 |
| katu | gmaxwell: if you input 325606250916557431795983626356110631294008115727848805560023387167927233504 as public key (generator), you'll see order 8. this is presumably ok for DH, but not when it is abused for other uses. | 15:42 |
| gmaxwell | katu: you ___MUST___ reject low order points for ECDH generally; it just happens to be the case for curve25519 the particular selection of possible low order points is not a set that will cause trouble. But it is not generally true. | 15:43 |
| gmaxwell | (it works in this case because you only get points of order 8,4,2; and your key has been magicked to be a multiple of 8) | 15:45 |
| gmaxwell | but this is not something which is generally true for ECDH. | 15:45 |
| gmaxwell | And failing to validate points generally (outside of this specific setup), _for ecdh_ results in exploitable vulnerability when an attacker sends you points of many different orders and learns your key mod a collection of small primes and can recover the value via chinese remander theorem. | 15:46 |
| katu | gmaxwell: still, if both parties announce they have low order public point, hilarity ensues :) | 15:49 |
| katu | my point is, it makes no sense to do that | 15:49 |
| katu | of course this is all in context of 25519 | 15:49 |
| -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wwmzveanproygckg] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 15:49 | |
| tromp | CRT is the attack i use on the order of legal Go positions:) | 15:49 |
| gmaxwell | tromp: I was mind blown with the go position counting stuff. So interesting that the combinitorics is simple enough to yield to analysis like that. | 15:51 |
| gmaxwell | katu: Just please take care to not generalize what works for one particlar set of parameters for other things. | 15:52 |
| gwillen | link for the go position stuff? | 15:52 |
| tromp | http://tromp.github.io/go/legal.html | 15:52 |
| tromp | in fact i should have finished the computation by now. were it not for the last 3 jobs all suffering fatal filesystem errors | 15:53 |
| gmaxwell | tromp: I'd seen the paper but I didn't connect that it was you. | 15:53 |
| gwillen | tromp: I love that we have the power to do it up to ONE less than the traditional go board size | 15:54 |
| tromp | still hope to finish by Xmas! | 15:54 |
| gwillen | +1 | 15:54 |
| gmaxwell | next step should be a go board compression program that converts any legal goboard into a single integer on the range of [zero .. npositions) :) | 15:55 |
| -!- bramc [~bram@216.216.202.69] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:55 | |
| gmaxwell | tromp: I'd offer to help compute but I don't have any cpu farms with oodles of storage handy at the moment! | 15:56 |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand_ [~jeremy@172.56.14.229] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:56 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand_ is now known as Jeremy_Rand | 15:56 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand [~jeremy@172.56.14.229] has quit [Client Quit] | 15:56 | |
| tromp | that's only saving about 6 bits on the std encoding:( | 15:56 |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand [~jeremy@172.56.14.229] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:56 | |
| gmaxwell | tromp: hahah | 15:57 |
| tromp | fortunately your tax dollars help (computation being done at IDA princeton) | 15:57 |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:58 | |
| poppingtonic | +1 | 15:59 |
| -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 16:00 | |
| -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:01 | |
| phantomcircuit | tromp, something something academics wasting money heh | 16:01 |
| tromp | i can't think of a better use of my tax dollars:) | 16:02 |
| phantomcircuit | hehe | 16:02 |
| -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:05 | |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-32-71.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 16:10 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 16:12 | |
| -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 16:16 | |
| -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:18 | |
| -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 16:29 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand [~jeremy@172.56.14.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 16:30 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 16:31 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand [~jeremy@172.56.14.229] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:32 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:32 | |
| -!- Yoghur114 [~jorn@g227014.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 16:39 | |
| -!- CodeShark [~CodeShark@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 16:42 | |
| -!- Fistful_of_Coins [o3u@162.243.79.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:43 | |
| -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@wired018.math.utah.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:45 | |
| -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@wired018.math.utah.edu] has quit [Client Quit] | 16:46 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand_ [~jeremy@172.56.14.39] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:56 | |
| bramc | tromp Zero-knowledge proof or it didn't happen | 16:56 |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand [~jeremy@172.56.14.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 16:56 | |
| -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam] | 17:01 | |
| -!- c0rw|awa_ is now known as c0rw1n | 17:01 | |
| -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 17:02 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:06 | |
| -!- mdavid613 [~Adium@cpe-104-172-191-85.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 17:08 | |
| -!- Jeremy_Rand_ [~jeremy@172.56.14.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 17:15 | |
| -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:16 | |
| -!- jtimon [~quassel@212.Red-88-5-10.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 17:30 | |
| -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-36-133-241-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 17:31 | |
| -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 17:32 | |
| instagibbs | I for one welcome our new Go-playing computer overlords | 17:32 |
| gmaxwell | well they don't play, only count. :P | 17:35 |
| -!- mdavid613 [~Adium@cpe-104-35-146-84.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:37 | |
| bramc | Mathematical proofs are short enough that it would be entirely feasible to generate ZK proofs that a proof of a particular theorem passed a verifier. Univalent foundations are apparently totally practical, the guy who came up with them who does some very deep category-theory-like stuff does his day to day work using them now. | 17:37 |
| bramc | Hopefully it's only a matter of time before mathematicians not computer-verifying their proofs is viewed like programmers not getting their code to compile. | 17:39 |
| gmaxwell | very few proofs are computer verfied now, though.. one could hope... it turns out that formal mathmathical writing is often not formal enough to make the process easy! | 17:40 |
| bramc | Here's a little light reading for anybody curious about proofs of space: http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/796.pdf | 17:40 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, There's a combination of needing a tool which is sufficiently easy to use and the inherent difficulty of the task. For a long time code proving systems were the moral equivalent of machine code. They're much better now, although I don't know if any rises to be the moral equivalent of Python. | 17:42 |
| bramc | As for the inherent difficulties, people should finish their homework! While formality is harder than just writing down the proof, it's probably easier than the effort of the proof plus review plus headaches caused when the whole process goes awry. | 17:43 |
| bramc | It would be so nice if normal mathematical work was done on the mathwiki which people uploaded proofs to which were automatically verified. | 17:47 |
| -!- bendavenport [~bpd@96.90.231.161] has quit [Quit: bendavenport] | 17:47 | |
| bramc | Really dumb question about memory management: If you're doing work on multiple places in deep memory for n pieces of memory, does it start forcing cache misses at some fixed n? If so, what is the n? Is 2 safe? 3? 10? | 17:50 |
| bramc | So far on my merkle data structure, I've decided that (a) when doing a batched insertion/deletion, rather than recalculating things as it does an update, it will invalidate hashes as necessary and do a lazy recalculation from the root once it's all completed. This is in principle more cache misses, but I really, really, don't feel like implementing it the 'right' way. | 17:53 |
| bramc | (b) Related to that, when doing a batched update it will sort the individual updates and do them in order mostly separately, using the path from the root for the last one to reduce lookups for the next one, basically starting at the bottom and working up until a common ancestor is hit, but it's treated as advisory. | 17:55 |
| bramc | Come to think of it, maybe I should view (b) as another optimization which I don't need to do because I'm already doing the clumping to avoid cache misses, and depending on a few things it might be faster to search from the top than the bottom, so I should just punt and search from the top every time | 17:56 |
| -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:57 | |
| gmaxwell | I many not understand the question. So modern CPU L2/L3 cache are set associative caches, 16-way is common. so, if I parse your question right, n=16 if the stars align and nothing else gets in the waay. | 17:58 |
| gmaxwell | er many->may. waay->way* | 17:58 |
| bramc | Something which seems vaguely aesthetically related, today I learned that the best technique anyone has come up with for making chess engines run on multiple cores is something called lazy-smp, which is fancy talk for 'give them no knowledge of each other but have them use the same cache of positions', which sounds an awful lot like something an idiot hacker who didn't know what he was doing would do, but it's fabulous and getting coordination overhe | 17:58 |
| bramc | ad under control and works well in practice. | 17:58 |
| -!- kgk_ [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 17:58 | |
| bramc | gmaxwell, Thanks that answered my question, that's very reassuring. | 17:58 |
| Taek | maaku, bramc, phantomcircuit: can someone volunteer to check out and contribute to the knosys page on utxo commitments? | 18:00 |
| gmaxwell | hardware designers are no fools. :) | 18:00 |
| Taek | https://github.com/DavidVorick/knosys/blob/master/Utxo%20Commitments.md | 18:00 |
| -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 18:00 | |
| -!- mdavid613 [~Adium@cpe-104-35-146-84.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 18:02 | |
| bramc | That allows me to be extremely sloppy about a number of things and everything will still work well. | 18:02 |
| bramc | Memoization really feels like magic pixie dust. Don't worry about the nominal asymptotic, just add this weird subtlety to your seemingly horrifically inefficient algorithm and everything will be fine. | 18:03 |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 18:04 | |
| bramc | Taek, Not related to anything cryptocurrency, one of my kids has gotten really into martial arts, specifically kajukembo | 18:05 |
| -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:05 | |
| gmaxwell | bramc: there are other details to worry about for highest performance, e.g. memory accesses do not have byte granularity, -- you load (and cache) a full cacheline at a time (typically 64 or even 128 bytes) so cacheline spanning reads can force the load of two cachelines, memory accesses which are paged misaligned (e.g. cross a 4k boundary in a single read) have higher overhead (at least on x86). | 18:06 |
| gmaxwell | .. in general access to different pages can cause pressure on the TLB caches. ... | 18:06 |
| -!- sparetire_ [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has quit [Quit: sparetire_] | 18:06 | |
| phantomcircuit | Taek, that seems like a nice list already | 18:07 |
| bramc | Taek, I don't have much to add to that page, although the intention for what I'm working on now is for it to be put up later as something which should be linked from that page, but at least at first it will have some truly obnoxious caveats like 'this should really be ported to C' | 18:07 |
| -!- kgk_ [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:07 | |
| Taek | I do hope we can get a culture going where people collect knowledge as they learn or create it | 18:08 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, What I'm doing now is ugly enough without even trying to worry about that level of optimization. It's so much better than the thing which already exists, and those optimization are difficult enough with small enough potential benefit, that I'm just going to punt | 18:08 |
| Taek | ie, bramc: once you have a proposal that's mostly good (even if incomplete), you should add it | 18:09 |
| Taek | One thing definitely missing from that page is the channel logs on the subject | 18:09 |
| bramc | Taek, I really, really, don't feel comfortable putting it up until it's at least a working implementation, because the whole point is that it's supposed to be semantically compatible with what maaku's already done. | 18:09 |
| phantomcircuit | Taek, im not sure my thinking on utxo commitments qualifies as knowledge yet :) | 18:10 |
| bramc | phantomcircuit, I believe our last conversation on the subject basically amount to you already knowing about the stuff I'm working on but haven't done it because you've been hoping some sucker would go through all the pain, and that would apparently be me. | 18:11 |
| phantomcircuit | rusty, so i was thinking, could back refs in the utxo enable fraud proofs for false utxo commitments without needing to check the entire blockchain? | 18:11 |
| rusty | phantomcircuit: ummm... maybe | 18:12 |
| phantomcircuit | ie "this utxo entry was added in block a" "ok i can prove that it wasn't" | 18:12 |
| phantomcircuit | rusty, yeah that's kind of been my response to most of these things | 18:12 |
| bramc | Right now I'm stumbling over where and how the sibling relationships between blocks should be stored | 18:13 |
| -!- kgk_ [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 18:13 | |
| -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-upqwkcyzshifosnk] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 18:14 | |
| bramc | I have this concept of a 'block' which is a contiguous chunk of memory in which related tree nodes are stored. Memory management within a block is that new stuff is always added to the end, and when it runs out of room it consolidates down all the memory used within itself to be contiguous again and if necessary moves some stuff into a sibling block and if that isn't possible moves some stuff into a child block | 18:15 |
| -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 18:15 | |
| bramc | Consolidating a block isn't such a big deal, it only involves rewriting the parent and the original, so it can be done more than necessary in the name of efficiency. | 18:15 |
| bramc | When you add something new, you try to add it to the same block as the parent node. That's where all the cache coherence efficiency comes from. | 18:17 |
| -!- kgk_ [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:18 | |
| bramc | To move stuff to a sibling block, you look at the inputs and try to find the inputs with the smallest number of local children and move enough of them that you locally have free space up to some threshold (I'm thinking 15% as a default) into a sibling block with enough free space to accomodate them, and if there is no such sibling block you make a new one | 18:19 |
| bramc | And if there's only one input into the current block you lop off a branch and move it into a child. | 18:19 |
| bramc | Does this make sense to people or am I babbling? | 18:19 |
| bramc | Come to think of it, a whole lot of accounting of sibling blocks can be done in the parent by (a) having each node remember how many children it has, and (b) have a rule that blocks never, ever have children unless they only have a single input | 18:21 |
| bramc | And the count information only needs to be in out-pointers, so it isn't all that much overhead | 18:24 |
| bramc | Although that does mean that counts can't be updated lazily, but that isn't a big deal. | 18:25 |
| bramc | One thing about this block concept is that I've decided to just plain support variable length node data structures, which in some ways is a huge pain but in others is a huge relief. | 18:26 |
| bramc | Come to think of it, my previous idea that the best way to add a child node is to lop off a single branch is 100% wrong. The best way to add a child node is to trim off a bunch of leaves, to try to keep the depths consistent. | 18:28 |
| bramc | Is anybody following this, or am I explaining things to the bear? | 18:28 |
| kanzure | well, i was going to reference some of these notes later when i look at whatever code you haven't released yet | 18:29 |
| bramc | kanzure, Fair enough. This is basically documentation which should go on my code to explain what on earth is going on. | 18:31 |
| bramc | Really this should be a data structure on par with an ordinary set, meaning hardly anyone should look under the hood, for there be dragons. | 18:32 |
| bramc | I'm still working on the highly level view of what data goes where, but I think I just got over my last major stumbling block and am almost ready to start designing things at the byte level. | 18:34 |
| bramc | Almost. Still need to work some stuff out about thresholds and block restructuring. Block restructuring is a somewhat expensive operation, but it's done batched only when certain thresholds are exceeded at a tradeoff between cost of reorgs and amount of memory overhead which is needed for book processing | 18:37 |
| bramc | Bit of trivia: Traditional libraries need about 1/3 of their floorspace devoted to book processing. The San Francisco Library was designed by a marquee name architect who couldn't be bothered to do his research and only allocated 1/10. | 18:38 |
| kanzure | would also be good to make strong concrete statements about what the merkle root can be trusted to prove and not prove when given various paths, or rather, assumptions that would violate the security of the strategy | 18:39 |
| kanzure | *assumptions that when broken | 18:39 |
| bramc | kanzure, I'm going to make it semantically identical to what maaku has already built, just more space efficient and allowing for batched updates with less hashing and fewer cache misses | 18:40 |
| -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 18:41 | |
| bramc | Well isn't that special. Ping time to facebook from this coffee shop is 70ms with zero packet loss, but facebook pages, and only facebook pages, load slow as molasses. | 18:51 |
| rusty | kanzure: I'm impressed with your abilty (and jgarzik's) to hang out here while simultaneously moderating those 6 emails! | 18:54 |
| -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:55 | |
| kanzure | rusty: i thought it was 150? | 18:56 |
| kanzure | what? | 18:56 |
| rusty | kanzure: I cut it down... | 18:56 |
| kanzure | ah, i've been drafting an email to the fastest typer in the world | 18:57 |
| kanzure | i'll uh.. speed things up. | 18:57 |
| rusty | kanzure: start responding with "have you considered the following: <random academic citations>". I find it's helpful to slow down conversations :) | 18:57 |
| bramc | I'm on approximately zero mailing lists. The semantics that nobody should expect that I've seen anything unless I respond to it are very useful. | 19:00 |
| kanzure | does that include bitcoin-dev? | 19:00 |
| rusty | kanzure: uhh... have you considered H. Massias, X.S. Avila, and J.-J. Quisquater, "Design of a secure timestamping service with minimaltrust requirements," In 20th Symposium on Information Theory in the Benelux, May 1999? | 19:03 |
| kanzure | yeah i binged on timestamping server papers a while back | 19:04 |
| -!- p15 [~p15@96.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:04 | |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/distributed/distributed-systems/timestamps-in-messaging-passing-systems.1988.pdf | 19:05 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Design%20of%20a%20secure%20timestamping%20system%20with%20minimal%20trust%20requirements.pdf | 19:05 |
| bramc | Actually it isn't necessary for nodes to have a strict 'no children unless a single input' rule | 19:06 |
| bramc | blocks I mean, not nodes | 19:06 |
| bramc | Manual territory-based memory management. Whee. It's like I'm implementing PHP. | 19:06 |
| bramc | maaku is there a single page which explains the byte-level semantics of your merkle tree implementation without any implementation details? | 19:07 |
| -!- c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|zZz | 19:09 | |
| -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 19:14 | |
| -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:17 | |
| -!- koshii [~w@c-68-58-151-30.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 19:22 | |
| -!- koshii [~w@c-68-58-151-30.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:22 | |
| -!- chris13243 [~chris@70.6.233.237] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:34 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-139-225.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 19:43 | |
| -!- chris13243 [~chris@70.6.233.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 19:44 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@216.216.202.69] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] | 19:49 | |
| -!- CodeShark [~androirc@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:53 | |
| -!- CodeShark_ [~androirc@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:54 | |
| -!- berndj [~berndj@azna.co.za] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] | 19:54 | |
| -!- berndj [~berndj@azna.co.za] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:55 | |
| -!- berndj is now known as Guest60457 | 19:55 | |
| -!- CodeShark [~androirc@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] | 19:55 | |
| -!- CodeShark_ [~androirc@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] | 19:55 | |
| -!- CodeShark [~androirc@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:56 | |
| -!- Guest60457 [~berndj@azna.co.za] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] | 19:56 | |
| -!- berndj-blackout [~berndj@azna.co.za] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:57 | |
| -!- berndj-blackout [~berndj@azna.co.za] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] | 19:57 | |
| -!- berndj-blackout [~berndj@azna.co.za] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:57 | |
| -!- berndj-blackout [~berndj@azna.co.za] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] | 19:58 | |
| -!- berndj-blackout [~berndj@azna.co.za] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:58 | |
| -!- berndj-blackout [~berndj@azna.co.za] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] | 20:00 | |
| -!- berndj-blackout [~berndj@azna.co.za] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:01 | |
| -!- berndj-blackout [~berndj@azna.co.za] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] | 20:02 | |
| -!- berndj-blackout [~berndj@azna.co.za] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:03 | |
| -!- zwischenzug3 [~zwischenz@pool-108-31-99-35.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:04 | |
| -!- hazirafel [~hazirafel@176.106.227.34] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:06 | |
| -!- hazirafel [~hazirafel@176.106.227.34] has quit [Client Quit] | 20:06 | |
| -!- ufoinc [~hazirafel@176.106.227.34] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:06 | |
| -!- berndj-blackout [~berndj@azna.co.za] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] | 20:07 | |
| -!- berndj-blackout [~berndj@azna.co.za] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:08 | |
| -!- berndj-blackout [~berndj@azna.co.za] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] | 20:09 | |
| -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Disconnected by services] | 20:22 | |
| -!- [7] [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:23 | |
| -!- CodeShark [~androirc@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 20:29 | |
| -!- CodeShark [~androirc@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:29 | |
| -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 20:33 | |
| -!- ufoinc [~hazirafel@176.106.227.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 20:37 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:40 | |
| -!- hazirafel [~hazirafel@176.106.227.34] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:44 | |
| -!- hazirafel [~hazirafel@176.106.227.34] has quit [Client Quit] | 20:45 | |
| -!- kgk_ [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 20:48 | |
| -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 21:04 | |
| -!- cholbrow [~cholbrow@blackmain.media.mit.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 21:05 | |
| -!- cholbrow [~cholbrow@blackmain.media.mit.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:06 | |
| -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:07 | |
| -!- zwischenzug3 [~zwischenz@pool-108-31-99-35.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 21:12 | |
| -!- chris13243 [~chris@174.144.29.208] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:22 | |
| -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p5B209E67.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:26 | |
| -!- CodeShark_ [~androirc@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:31 | |
| -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Excess Flood] | 21:34 | |
| -!- CodeShark [~androirc@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 21:36 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@lw.serv66.quikefall.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:37 | |
| -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:41 | |
| -!- kgk_ [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:45 | |
| -!- kgk_ [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 21:50 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:55 | |
| -!- chris13243 [~chris@174.144.29.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 21:57 | |
| -!- CodeShark [~androirc@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:01 | |
| -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 22:17 | |
| -!- TBI__ [~TBI@20.84-48-195.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 22:19 | |
| -!- tromp__ [~tromp@rtc35-217.rentec.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:44 | |
| -!- tromp [~tromp@rtc35-217.rentec.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 22:45 | |
| -!- nivah [~linker@171.232.51.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 23:01 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-139-225.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:02 | |
| -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zpbkhnefbiobmuzl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:16 | |
| -!- TBI [~TBI@20.84-48-195.nextgentel.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:17 | |
| -!- chris13243 [~chris@70.1.67.189] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:19 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 23:21 | |
| -!- p15 [~p15@96.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 23:34 | |
| -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:39 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 23:40 | |
| -!- midnightmagic [~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 23:42 | |
| fluffypony | http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1002.pdf | 23:42 |
| fluffypony | .title | 23:42 |
| yoleaux | fluffypony: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page. | 23:42 |
| fluffypony | "On the (in)security of a Self-Encrypting Drive series" | 23:42 |
| fluffypony | hopefully nobody here uses WD's "self-encrypting" hard drives | 23:43 |
| gmaxwell | wait. ram leakage? .. that suggest the encryption was actually encryption! shocking! | 23:45 |
| -!- kgk_ [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:45 | |
| fluffypony | "At any point in time an attacker can implement an attack with a complexity of 28 to bruteforce the current state of the 255 byte RNG sequence generated from the on-board LSFR" | 23:46 |
| fluffypony | "Another fact that dramatically reduces the possible UNIX timestamp range is the fact that all HDDs are marked with a production date printed on the actual HDD. The factory DEKF must have been generated close to this date. Our test devices show that the factory DEKF set was generated within days after the HDD production date. We did not take advantage of this fact since the complexity of the attack was already easy to handle for | 23:46 |
| fluffypony | all possible timestamps. However, this fact might apply to other chips, where the on-board RNG has a higher complexity compared to the JMS538S." | 23:46 |
| fluffypony | I wonder if any of the Bitcoin hardware wallets suffer from something like that | 23:46 |
| -!- midnightmagic [~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:47 | |
| gmaxwell | fluffypony: so I'm surprised that it was even that strong; though given that it wasn't pure snake oil.. with all that fancy DSP controlled stuff, you think they could have gotten a nice mechnical randomness source-- e.g. the servo error signal, or data read noise. | 23:47 |
| fluffypony | I know right | 23:48 |
| fluffypony | they could have used spin times and all sorts | 23:48 |
| -!- kgk_ [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 23:49 | |
| -!- RedEmerald [~RedEmeral@2601:646:4100:c5:11:cdff:fe00:1a0b] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 23:52 | |
| -!- chris13243 [~chris@70.1.67.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 23:57 | |
| gmaxwell | fluffypony: well apparently its some usb bridge, e.g. no access to the sweet mechnical noise. | 23:59 |
| --- Log closed Wed Oct 21 00:00:02 2015 | ||
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!