| --- Log opened Fri Oct 30 00:00:11 2015 | ||
| bramc | Probably a good idea to cache hashes in an ordinary hashtable so they don't have to get recalculated again | 00:00 |
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| nsh | bramc, what are the edge cases? | 02:47 |
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| bramc | nsh, Sometimes the arrangement of which blocks the inputs go into gets rearranged. Sometimes the inputs need to be put into a new child. Sometimes the block needs to be converted from a leaf format to an intermediary format | 02:48 |
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| nsh | ah | 02:50 |
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| ryan-c | are there any attacks on ecdsa with a partially known private key? | 14:49 |
| ryan-c | (in this particular case, the first 40 bits) | 14:50 |
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| phantomcircuit | ryan-c, probably | 14:53 |
| zooko | Nadia Heninger did some research on that sort of thing. I never learned the details. | 14:54 |
| zooko | I most remember attacks on RSA. | 14:54 |
| zooko | Like phantomcircuit, I would assume danger until proven safety. | 14:54 |
| gmaxwell | ryan-c: at a best you need only sqrt of the remaining bits operations. | 14:55 |
| gmaxwell | (to find the discrete log) | 14:55 |
| ryan-c | which would be.... 108 bits? | 14:55 |
| nsh | cf. http://blog.cr.yp.to/20140205-entropy.html | 14:55 |
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| nsh | except that was reduced-entropy in the nonce, so probably not applicable | 14:56 |
| gmaxwell | Nonces are special and even worse. | 14:56 |
| ryan-c | i was looking at rushwallet - if you choose to password protect it, you get a random seed, and then private key is sha256(seed||'!'||hex(sha256(password))), but to validate the password it leaks the first 40 bits of the private key in the thing you're supposed to store. | 14:56 |
| gmaxwell | Becuase you learn these reduced linear relations and can setup a lattice basis problem that gives you an efficiency basis to perform a search in. | 14:57 |
| gmaxwell | bleh why does it do that? thats stupid. | 14:57 |
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| gmaxwell | it could at least seperately hash it. | 14:57 |
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| ryan-c | yes, agree, stupid | 14:57 |
| gmaxwell | and then I don't know how to give you any speedup beyond the fact that the checkvalue check is going to be faster than the point,scalar multiply. | 14:58 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, heh that's like a 50x speed up in itself | 14:58 |
| ryan-c | 1.1M/sec on my i7-2600 | 14:59 |
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| gmaxwell | phantomcircuit: yea but the speedup from forgetting about the password and doing the rho attack is greater ... assuming the passwords are cryptographically strong. (which they probably aren't and so the fast test is the better avenue) | 14:59 |
| gmaxwell | ('greater' -- its a million fold speedup) | 15:00 |
| ryan-c | (without bothering to vectorize it with simd) | 15:01 |
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| kanzure | various old novena benchmarks http://www.kosagi.com/w/index.php?title=Novena/Crypto | 15:56 |
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| zooko | What are you looking at there, kanzure? We did some benchmarks on Novena recently. | 15:58 |
| kanzure | was trying to interpret libsecp256k1 benchmarking on novena against openssl but nobody had done that | 15:59 |
| kanzure | you seem like a somewhat good choice for someone to bother to do this! | 15:59 |
| gmaxwell | kanzure: there is a pull req against libsecp256k1 that doubles its speed on arm. | 15:59 |
| gmaxwell | IIRC without it, it's about 4x faster than openssl. There should be performance numbers someplace in bitcoin-wizards logs. | 16:00 |
| gmaxwell | For novena it would be interesting to use the fpga for signature validation. | 16:00 |
| kanzure | i was sourcing from -wizards logs yeah | 16:01 |
| kanzure | but thanks for explicit 4x faster statement, that is what i was fishing for | 16:01 |
| gmaxwell | thats a vague recollection. Both are pretty shockingly slow. Much worse than you'd expect from the clockrate when you're used to broadwell performance on x86_64. :) | 16:01 |
| kanzure | re: deterministic builds, openbsd package manager does some neat diff packing | 16:09 |
| kanzure | "Faster and more secure packages in OpenBSD" http://www.openbsd.org/papers/eurobsdcon2015-packages.pdf | 16:09 |
| kanzure | "Advances in packages and ports in OpenBSD" http://www.openbsd.org/papers/eurobsd2012/espie-dpb/index.html | 16:10 |
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| kanzure | 16:52 <iimarckus> oh yeah, you might want to look into superh, there's some promising open hdl work going on there | 16:54 |
| kanzure | 16:52 <iimarckus> http://nommu.org/jcore/ | 16:54 |
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| kanzure | why do we still have xilinx bitstream compiler dependency :( | 16:58 |
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| JackH | mr kanzure, our little library of alexandria, do you by any chance have the copy of thunder.network/ | 17:04 |
| JackH | it seems like whomever did it, took it down | 17:04 |
| kanzure | have you checked the actual library of alexandria yet? | 17:05 |
| kanzure | https://web.archive.org/web/20150923104100/http://thunder.network/ | 17:05 |
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| JackH | what about it? :) | 17:05 |
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| kanzure | do you mean something other than the webpage..? | 17:07 |
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| JackH | nope, thx :) | 17:08 |
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| JackH | see, you are the librarian/library | 17:08 |
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| TD-Linux | kanzure, there is an open source toolchain for Lattice FPGAs that I've used and it works quite well | 17:50 |
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| tulip | > thats a vague recollection. Both are pretty shockingly slow. | 18:07 |
| tulip | ARMv7 Processor rev 5 (v7l) | 18:07 |
| tulip | Doing 256 bit verify ecdsa's for 10s: 1264 256 bit ECDSA verify in 9.99s | 18:07 |
| gmaxwell | hurrah! | 18:08 |
| gmaxwell | so my recollection was 100/s vs 400/s. | 18:08 |
| gmaxwell | (without that pullreq that I mentioned) | 18:08 |
| tulip | that's openssl speed ecdsa, just building libsecp256k1 | 18:09 |
| tulip | (slowly) | 18:09 |
| gmaxwell | yea, the hurrah is just eme saying that its consistent with my recollection of 100. | 18:09 |
| gmaxwell | (I didn't say the number earlier, just shockingly slow, because it's so slow it doesn't sound right) | 18:09 |
| gmaxwell | tulip: for some of my perspective; my overpowered desktop in my office does nearly a half million ecdsa verifies per second with libsecp256k1. | 18:10 |
| tulip | 32bit x86 would fare pretty badly as well wouldn't it? | 18:13 |
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| sipa | the vague numbers i remember from earlier libsecp25k1 is x86_64->{openssl->600us, libsecp->100us} i386->{openssl->1200us, libsecp->400us} | 18:14 |
| gmaxwell | tulip: no, not as badly as arm... also depends on what microarchiture you're talking about. | 18:16 |
| gmaxwell | arm64 was not hugely fast, eithre. performance was like x86_64 on atom cores without asm. | 18:17 |
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| tulip | ecdsa_verify: min 3456us / avg 3456us / max 3457us --with-asm=no | 18:53 |
| tulip | ecdsa_verify: min 2203us / avg 2203us / avg 2203us --with-asm=arm | 18:53 |
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| gmaxwell | interesting, is this with GMP? | 18:54 |
| gmaxwell | that would suggest that my vaguely recalled 400 number was with ASM. | 18:54 |
| gmaxwell | also is it with endomorphism? | 18:54 |
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| tulip | that's just with the default configure, nothing else changed. the asm branch is very old so it's likely there's other changes between the benchmarks more than just the assembly. | 18:58 |
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| tulip | doesn't have GMP though. | 18:58 |
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| gmaxwell | I don't think there should be any speed differences between then and now; but --enable-endomorphism with with GMP are fairly big speedups. | 19:00 |
| gmaxwell | recent work has been API and verification, not optimizations. | 19:01 |
| gmaxwell | e.g. endomorphism is 20% right off the top, gmp might be 10%, which suggests to me my 400 figure was probably gmp+endomorphism but not asm. | 19:01 |
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| tulip | ecdsa_verify: min 1207us / avg 1207us / avg 1207us --enable-endomorphism --with-asm=yes --with-bignum=gmp | 19:17 |
| tulip | ecdsa_verify: min 2247us / avg 2247us / avg 2247us --enable-endomorphism --with-asm=no --with-bignum=gmp | 19:18 |
| gmaxwell | there we go. | 19:19 |
| gmaxwell | it's still horrible. but ... better. | 19:19 |
| kanzure | TD-Linux: link to that source code please? | 19:19 |
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| TD-Linux | kanzure, http://www.clifford.at/icestorm/ | 19:20 |
| kanzure | "Project IceStorm aims at documenting the bitstream format of Lattice iCE40 FPGAs and providing simple tools for analyzing and creating bitstream files. At the moment the focus of the project is on the HX1K-TQ144 and HX8K-CT256 devices, but most of the information is device-independent." | 19:21 |
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| kanzure | https://github.com/cliffordwolf/icestorm | 19:22 |
| kanzure | "We have enough bits mapped that we can create a functional Verilog model for almost all bitstreams generated by Lattice iCEcube2 for the iCE40 HX1K-TQ144 and the iCE40 HX8K-CT256." | 19:22 |
| TD-Linux | kanzure, yes, it provides the low level tools to generate bitstreams from a netlist and vice versa | 19:27 |
| TD-Linux | (a placed/routed netlist) | 19:27 |
| TD-Linux | you use yosys to go verilog -> netlist, arachne-pnr for place and route | 19:28 |
| kanzure | wasn't this a giant missing piece of the puzzle and everyone had to use xilinx for the longest time | 19:28 |
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| TD-Linux | yes it was. and still is - the lattice chips are too small for some things | 19:31 |
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| kanzure | oh how small are these? | 19:35 |
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| TD-Linux | largest one is 8k LUTs / 64k dram. just large enough for a very small CPU, for example. | 19:42 |
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| TD-Linux | you can get a 1k LUT one on a USB stick with programmer for $20, and run a tiny CPU: http://www.excamera.com/sphinx/article-j1a-swapforth.html | 19:44 |
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| tulip | TD-Linux: "iCE40, so low power it is cold as iCE" oh no. | 19:52 |
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| amiller | i dunno man, try asking someone what an expander graph *looks like*, you don't get much of an answer | 20:51 |
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| gmaxwell | amiller: any low density parity check code should be one. | 21:00 |
| gmaxwell | amiller: you need to look to the coding theory people instead of the computational theory people if you want concrete examples of anything. :P | 21:01 |
| amiller | mmm thanks | 21:01 |
| gmaxwell | https://scholar.google.com/scholar?oe=utf-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&lr&cites=15004855496070750899 gives a readable construction for random expander graphs | 21:04 |
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| gmaxwell | (and ones that have a linear number of edges, same criteria used for PCP encodings) | 21:05 |
| kanzure | .title | 21:06 |
| yoleaux | Sorry... | 21:06 |
| kanzure | "Sipser: expanding codes" | 21:06 |
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| --- Log closed Sat Oct 31 00:00:12 2015 | ||
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