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kanzure | "Micropayments for decentralized currencies" (more lottery stuff) http://initc3.org/files/micropay2.pdf | 12:00 |
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bramc | Quiet in here | 15:35 |
phantomcircuit | bramc, HELLO | 15:36 |
bramc | Hello Mr. Circuit | 15:36 |
bramc | Does anybody have an opinion about the reasonableness of requiring the amount of reserved memory for the utxo commitment data structure to be set up front? | 15:40 |
bramc | Also of interest: Is the set of function being add() remove() is_included() and get_root() appropriate? Is it a good idea for it to allow arbitrary size strings to be included in the set by hashing them first? | 15:41 |
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bramc | For the patricia tree structure, is it okay to simply pass up things unchanged when there are no alternatives? For example, if there are only two things stored and they share the same longish prefix, the root will still be the hash of them together? | 15:43 |
bramc | It seems completely appropriate for it to be a set and not a dictionary | 15:45 |
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phantomcircuit | bramc, i dont see why you'd want to support arbitrary size strings, the caller should have already calculated a hash | 15:59 |
bramc | phantomcircuit, I could also make it be fixed at hash-size strings. That's never less efficient, just requires the caller do the hashing, which it may have done already. | 16:00 |
phantomcircuit | bramc, one of the advantages of using a patricia treat is compact proof of exclusion, if you're not merging the prefixes that probably doesn't work | 16:00 |
bramc | hmm, I'll have to think about that. I think the proofs of exclusion are short anyway | 16:02 |
bramc | Yeah, they're short anyway: As long as everything is in order, you just need to trace down to two consecutive things for a proof of exclusion | 16:03 |
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bramc | So the longest a proof of exclusion could be is twice the depth, for something which is between the high point of the low branch and the low point of the high branch | 16:08 |
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phantomcircuit | bramc, hmm yeah that's true | 16:20 |
phantomcircuit | not optimally compact but still compact enough for basically any applicaiton | 16:20 |
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bitcoin-wizards2 | adam3us1: Hi, are you adam back? | 17:27 |
dEBRUYNE__ | He is | 17:28 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | thanks dEBRUYNE__ | 17:28 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | is he available? | 17:28 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | we agreed to speak a while back | 17:28 |
dEBRUYNE__ | Not sure, better to ask him yourself | 17:28 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | how do you PM here? | 17:29 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | nevermind, i think i figured it out. | 17:29 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | on a more general note | 17:30 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | is everyone here aware of Brian Armstrong's latest message? Brian is Coinbase CEO. | 17:31 |
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bitcoin-wizards2 | Two important links: 1) https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3rejl9/coinbase_ceo_brian_armstrong_bip_101_is_the_best/, 2) https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3rfapk/new_post_by_mike_hearn_appears_to_have_been/ | 17:35 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | Specifically, note his endorsement of XT despite the obvious lack of ecosystem support of XT and lack of traction. | 17:35 |
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kanzure | that shouldn't be surprising considering his previous statements. but why is that -wizards material? | 17:37 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | It seems like a very serious situation, maybe the most explicit statement made by Brian thus far. | 17:38 |
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bitcoin-wizards2 | I'm curious what is going on behind the scenes, and if Core has a response. What is Core doing to retain Brian's support? Brian has said he is fine with Core. | 17:39 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | As long as it does something. | 17:39 |
katu | bitcoin-wizards2: please try to contain XT shitfest to #bitcoin :) | 17:46 |
katu | its technically uninteresting, just pure politics | 17:46 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | Okay, but isn't this important? | 17:47 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | Why is everyone behaving so non-chalant? | 17:47 |
katu | most tech folks practice strict hands off approach | 17:47 |
katu | and political decisions are very closely hands on :) | 17:48 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | This could lead to Civil War and the end of Bitcoin, practically. | 17:48 |
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bitcoin-wizards2 | I understand, but that ^. | 17:48 |
katu | bitcoin-wizards2: so? | 17:48 |
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katu | if bitcoin fails because of politics so be it | 17:48 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | ??? | 17:48 |
katu | we believe it will still prevail based on merit alone | 17:48 |
katu | bitcoin-wizards2: the whole idea of PoW based consensus | 17:49 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | Well unfortunately the real world involves politics | 17:49 |
katu | more terahashes decide | 17:49 |
katu | not people. | 17:49 |
katu | not politicians. | 17:49 |
belcher | if bitcoin can be changed because a charismatic leader lobbied some mining pools and wrote some blogposts then its in trouble | 17:49 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | Code is important, but politics is just as important in the real world. | 17:49 |
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Nickyo9 | its not romur! bitcoin going to hit 1500$ due to this news!!! coindesk lie to us! http://www.nasdaqtoday.com/Overstock-has-confirmed-that-Nasdaq-is-using-blockchain | 17:49 |
katu | bitcoin-wizards2: then try to come up with technical solutions how to avoid politics | 17:49 |
katu | we all know politics is just smoke and mirrors and hate it for that reason | 17:50 |
katu | we'd better have no politics | 17:50 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | The solution is for Brian to be genuinely engaged by Core. | 17:50 |
katu | amoral, not moral/immoral. | 17:50 |
belcher | im sure technical folk will enter the discussion if theres any danger of the consensus forking, luckily we're very far away from that | 17:50 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | I don't understand why Brian would say what he said about XT. | 17:50 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | Charlie Lee didn't expect this either, and he works for Coinbase. | 17:50 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | mods can you ban Nickyo9 | 17:51 |
katu | bitcoin-wizards2: political bickering | 17:51 |
katu | why do you even care? | 17:51 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | Nickyo9: just spammed a virus link | 17:51 |
katu | are you afraid on effect on market? | 17:51 |
katu | if so, this is not markets channel | 17:51 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | katu I'm afraid because I care deeply about bitcoin for many reasons | 17:51 |
katu | for what we care, bitcoin price could drop to two cents :) | 17:51 |
katu | bitcoin-wizards2: most people care only because of their money | 17:51 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | If your opinion represents Core's opinion, then I'm not surprised Brian is going to XT | 17:52 |
katu | i shush you off because i suspect you of the same. if not, state your case :) | 17:52 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | And maybe everyone else should go to XT. | 17:52 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | Maybe I've been wrong about Core this whole time | 17:52 |
belcher | this channel is logged and this off-topic talk can be very irritating when searching those logs, so take this somewhere else | 17:52 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | If you guys really are this brain dead to say such things (for what we care price could go to 2 cents) | 17:52 |
bitcoin-wizards2 | Okay, thanks for the help. Later. | 17:53 |
amiller | bitcoin-wizards2, katu, this whole thing is off topic, elsewhere please? | 17:53 |
amiller | k | 17:53 |
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katu | belcher: to turn this incident into something productive, are there some ideas out there to make pooled mining difficult/infeasible? | 18:01 |
katu | i've poured through kanzure's stash, but found only paper or two on proofs of serially done computation | 18:01 |
belcher | idk sorry | 18:01 |
adlai | katu: have you seen amiller's paper? | 18:03 |
adlai | http://cs.umd.edu/~amiller/nonoutsourceable_full.pdf, discussion at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=309073.0;all | 18:04 |
amiller | there's also blogposts by selfish mining cornell folkks http://hackingdistributed.com/2014/06/18/how-to-disincentivize-large-bitcoin-mining-pools/ | 18:05 |
katu | adlai: yeah, forgot about pinnochio | 18:05 |
katu | but serial PoWs struck me as more practical, because those are still easier to verify | 18:06 |
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amiller | katu, like sequentially hard proofs of work? | 18:14 |
amiller | katu, there's this http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~mohammad/files/papers/11%20TimeLock.pdf | 18:15 |
kanzure | "the real world" | 18:16 |
kanzure | "i am outraged that you don't parrot my narrative" | 18:16 |
kanzure | politics was never a good idea | 18:17 |
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@gwillen | kb Nickyo9 | 18:33 |
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@gwillen | oops. | 18:33 |
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gmaxwell | gwillen: hope you didn't follow that link. | 18:39 |
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katu | amiller: thanks. yeah, i've seen similiar idea somewhere with pebble graphs, though can't recall which paper was that. | 18:46 |
katu | ie while such pow is difficult in theory, in practice one can have embarassingly parallel problem which cant be run in parallel because of bandwidth constraints. | 18:46 |
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katu | amiller: anything where the (very relevant) point on dealing with variance (ie people hate it and thus put up with pools) is discussed? | 18:48 |
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@gwillen | gmaxwell: no, the 'oops' was for saying "kb" instead of doing "/kb" | 18:51 |
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IDoTrades | bitcoin going to hit 1500$ due to this news!!! coindesk lie to us! http://www.nasdaqtoday.com/Overstock-has-confirmed-that-Nasdaq-is-using-blockchain | 18:56 |
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-!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+b *!*@*31.6.55*] by gwillen | 18:57 | |
@gwillen | that's a malware link, don't click it | 18:57 |
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-!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [-bb *!*@31.6.14.89 *!*@*31.6.55*] by gwillen | 18:59 | |
@gwillen | for the record, 31.6.0-63 all appears to be dynamic IPs from the same ISP. | 19:00 |
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archobserver | just what bitcoin needs ... to fail due to malware | 19:29 |
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