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| kanzure | "Speed-security tradeoffs in blockchain protocols" https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1019 (various ghost vs bitcoin attack scenarios for "chain growth") | 07:34 |
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| fluffypony | https://wiki.peercointalk.org/index.php?title=Peercoin_blockchain_fork_of_2015-11-09 | 09:57 |
| fluffypony | sipa: they reckon someone exploited the bug you found (not sure which one they're referring to) | 09:57 |
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| fluffypony | oh bip66 | 09:58 |
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| gmaxwell | lol; zombie developer broadcast block signing forced the invalid signature into the chain. | 10:10 |
| sipa | fluffypony: sounds pretty literally the specific example i mentioned in the bug report | 10:11 |
| fluffypony | yup | 10:11 |
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| katu | sipa: is ppcoin the only fork with this bug? i image ton of bitcoin alts are vulnerable to this | 10:15 |
| katu | as half of those dont bother merging from upstream | 10:15 |
| katu | *imagine | 10:15 |
| sipa | i imagine nearly all of them are vulnerable | 10:15 |
| gmaxwell | to that an a hundred other issues. | 10:16 |
| fluffypony | yup | 10:16 |
| fluffypony | which is why I always giggle when they make grandiose claims about having fixed | 10:17 |
| fluffypony | "fixed what the Bitcoin devs can't" or some such | 10:17 |
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| jgarzik | :) | 10:17 |
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| katu | fluffypony: thats why only those which are not actually bitcoin codebase seem to be only somewhat interesting. | 10:20 |
| fluffypony | katu: agreed | 10:21 |
| katu | even there bitcoin has best track record. iirc bitcoin suffered 2 consensus bugs, monero 1, nxt too many to count :) | 10:21 |
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| jgarzik | katu, Those still must fix many of these same problems, just in a different codebase - while adding new problems all their own :) | 10:21 |
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| fluffypony | jgarzik: that's true, but on the flipside the Bitcoin forks have a terrible track record of even keeping up with Bitcoin's commits | 10:22 |
| katu | jgarzik: yeah, reinventing wheel is the difficult, brave path | 10:22 |
| fluffypony | let alone doing anything innovative | 10:22 |
| jgarzik | agreed ^2 | 10:22 |
| katu | and some codebases (eth and bitshares) are outright scary balls of hairy C++ code | 10:22 |
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| fluffypony | katu: I'm not convinced we (Monero) don't have more consensus bugs lurking in the parts of the codebase we don't often touch, but at least we've started making things cleaner by replacing most of the crypto with SUPERCOP ref10 and other reference implementations | 10:23 |
| jgarzik | Eth has a bunch of different implementations. Which sees majority use? I don't know. | 10:25 |
| jgarzik | Bitshares code is quite scary. | 10:25 |
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| fluffypony | jgarzik: oh it's much worse than that...they're PROUD about how many implementations they have, and then in the same breadth they admit that their security auditors have basically said that the mishmash of code is impossible to audit | 10:27 |
| sipa | jgarzik: having different imementations means that every implicit behaviour specific to an implementation is a consensus bug | 10:27 |
| jgarzik | sipa, I had no idea! | 10:28 |
| jgarzik | ;p | 10:28 |
| sipa | it's a nice thought... starting out with multiple implementations to make sure the consensus doesn't diverge | 10:28 |
| sipa | i certainly have believed that that was the right way to do things | 10:28 |
| katu | well, what if you consider consensus bugs as part of the byzantine generals problem? | 10:28 |
| katu | ie the implementation with most hashpower simply wins. the end :) | 10:29 |
| fluffypony | lol | 10:29 |
| sipa | but it just doesn't work... we've seen too many times in bitcoin that we simple don't have the technology to predict all behaviour a piece of code exhibits | 10:29 |
| fluffypony | speaking of different implementations, nivah pointed this out - https://www.quora.com/Which-language-has-the-brightest-future-in-replacement-of-C-between-D-Go-and-Rust-And-Why/answer/Andrei-Alexandrescu | 10:29 |
| fluffypony | good comparison of D, Go, and Rust | 10:30 |
| fluffypony | I'm sure andytoshi will have thoughts on it | 10:30 |
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| katu | fluffypony: no mentions of C? :( | 10:30 |
| fluffypony | katu: they're talking about which of the three will replace C :) | 10:31 |
| katu | since it seems to be comparing apples and oranges (memory safe/unsafe) | 10:31 |
| katu | fluffypony: oh, just assumed they want to replace C++. | 10:32 |
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| katu | well, the answer is obviously javascript. | 10:32 |
| fluffypony | obviously | 10:32 |
| fluffypony | who was that guy writing a JS implementation of Bitcoin | 10:32 |
| katu | https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-javascript .. just in case theres somebody who didn't see it yet | 10:32 |
| katu | fluffypony: you mean blockchain.info? it does not seem like an implementation. bitcoinjs started off as a source port of some parts of bitcoinj iirc. | 10:33 |
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| fluffypony | katu: no, this is much worse | 10:35 |
| fluffypony | katu: https://github.com/ryanxcharles/fullnode/ | 10:35 |
| katu | oh neat, an implicit nodejs dependency | 10:37 |
| katu | "probably works in browser too, via incomplete browserify abstraction" | 10:38 |
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| jgarzik | After many years of software development, I'm reluctantly concluding that C++ may be a good language for secure finance software. (Reluctant because I love C99, have written a couple compilers myself, and know more about the language than most) | 10:39 |
| jgarzik | Rust is a great contender. D and Go, meh. | 10:39 |
| sipa | if only C had destructors | 10:39 |
| fluffypony | I agree jgarzik | 10:39 |
| fluffypony | his comment on Go's simplicity really drives the point home | 10:39 |
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| sipa | or C++'s use of the heap was optional | 10:40 |
| fluffypony | it's like writing everything in Logo | 10:40 |
| jgarzik | sipa, It's optional if you do a shitload of work :) | 10:40 |
| jgarzik | replacing STL etc. | 10:40 |
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| moa | "reluctantly concluding" ... sounds like a ringing endorsement | 10:40 |
| gmaxwell | sipa: When creating the opus standard, we created a second seperate decoder implementation to test agreement, then threw it out. Key point being throwing it out. | 10:41 |
| jgarzik | moa: It physically pains me to diss C ;p | 10:41 |
| moa | heh | 10:41 |
| katu | sipa: nothing stops you doing the c-with-classes shtick in c++. you still get the RAII. problem is even then it brings its c++ problems down the road. | 10:41 |
| katu | sipa: aka spooky-action-at-a-distance in c. eew. | 10:41 |
| sipa | jgarzik: wouldn't be typical C++ | 10:42 |
| sipa | but yes, new STL would do it :) | 10:43 |
| katu | isnt the "new STL" todays javascript frameworks in the 90s? | 10:43 |
| * katu reluctantly agrees that boost/stl are reasonable "universal" helper abstractions | 10:44 | |
| katu | anything "new" would simply sacrifice this universality. hence the only other way is to simply do c with classes (and some light templating instead of macros) | 10:44 |
| sipa | my problem is the lack of guarantees on memory usage | 10:45 |
| jcorgan | i guess i'm the holdout. i really like go's simplicity. i have a little heartache with its lack of dynamic linking, but supposedly i'll get over that | 10:45 |
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| katu | sipa: frankly, the heap pressure in c++ is frankly somewhat overstated. stl does support custom allocators. thats the strenth of universality. (and weakness because additional complexity). | 10:46 |
| sipa | using custom allocators is horrible | 10:47 |
| jgarzik | katu, That's how I use C++ sometimes, c-with-classes: https://github.com/jgarzik/pgdb2/blob/master/include/pgdb2-struct.h | 10:47 |
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| katu | jgarzik: i'm also of this camp, though the restraint to not abuse templates beyond some set limits pains me in C++. | 10:47 |
| katu | "if you do anything more beyond generics, you oughta not be doing it" | 10:48 |
| jgarzik | RE templates, indeed. Agree with Google: Avoid complicated templates and metaprogramming: https://google.github.io/styleguide/cppguide.html#Template_metaprogramming | 10:48 |
| jgarzik | Debugging - or even parsing compiler error messages - quickly becomes a pain. | 10:49 |
| sipa | c++14 adds template constraints, so you don't get book-long debug messages anymore | 10:49 |
| jcorgan | heh, i once had a 250KB error message from a single letter typo | 10:49 |
| jcorgan | boost+stl | 10:49 |
| katu | sipa: even with stl/boost instantiations? thats kinda hard to believe :) | 10:49 |
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| sipa | katu: yes | 10:50 |
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| sipa | katu: the template just defines properties the type parameters have to obey too, so the compiler doesn't need to go try everything anymore | 10:50 |
| sipa | and can just state that a constraint isn't satisfied | 10:51 |
| katu | sipa: finally. so no more awkward type traits. sure, that will cull down some sorts of long messages. but i still think some other bugs are much deeper in the rabbit hole than mere type resolution conflicts. | 10:52 |
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| fluffypony | can anyone remember that recent paper that highlighted the risk in node isolation attacks? | 11:20 |
| katu | fluffypony: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Eclipse%20attacks%20on%20Bitcoin's%20peer-to-peer%20network.pdf ? | 11:23 |
| fluffypony | ah, thanks katu, I was thinking of this one: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1410.6079.pdf - but that's good too | 11:24 |
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| katu | fluffypony: yeah, HS involve some unique challenges, but traditional eclypse is pretty much rebuttal to that | 11:26 |
| andytoshi | fluffypony: regarding D/Go/Rust, I don't know much about D or Go, but i can say that his complaints about rust are silly .. you spend more time organizing code to be memory safe maybe, but then you are certain that all access patterns are safe, and that all users of your library will use it safely. GC is useless for this, all it does is prevent use-after-free and has nothing to say about data races, | 11:31 |
| andytoshi | mutation from multiple places (including things like iterator invalidation), keeping track of where objects are alive and where they may be mutated, etc. rust takes like 95% of the thinking out of this. and calling this "just one issue" is really disingenuous, that's like calling "manipulating data" "just one issue" | 11:31 |
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| andytoshi | as for complaints about syntax, rust has far better metaprogramming and generics than either D or Go, and doesn't resort to ugly hacks to deal with parser ambiguities like some languages | 11:32 |
| fluffypony | well he is the creator of D, so there's that | 11:32 |
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| katu | andytoshi: that d/go/rant needs more haskell when we're all in for state safety guarantees :) | 11:32 |
| andytoshi | katu: sure, but rust gets you a lot of the benefits of haskell (the main thing it's missing are higher-kinded types) with a syntax that's usable for imperative/stateful programming | 11:33 |
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| katu | andytoshi: yeah, i cant decide if i love or hate rust for that | 11:33 |
| katu | it brings forth the painful memories of haskell | 11:33 |
| andytoshi | plus it interoperates better with C and is faster and (they put a lot of effort into this) name things with understandable words | 11:33 |
| andytoshi | e.g. haskell sum types are called "enums" in rust | 11:34 |
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| katu | andytoshi: imo rust has to deliver on its promises for mass audience to believe it. it tries to peddle "haskell with human face" and people are not falling for that trick. | 11:35 |
| katu | but if mozilla will suddenly leap in front of chrome because of servo, folks will notice. | 11:36 |
| andytoshi | katu: really? go talk about haskell in #rust and see how quickly people tell you to stop talking about haskell, rust is not haskell, etc | 11:36 |
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| katu | andytoshi: thats just the usual zalots being zealots :) | 11:36 |
| andytoshi | there is a pushback against the haskell people trying to make the language hard to understand :) | 11:36 |
| andytoshi | no, it's specifically haskell | 11:37 |
| katu | they hate when somebody likes their apple to similiar orange | 11:37 |
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| sipa | haskell explicitly hides execution flow from the programmer | 11:37 |
| sipa | rust pretty much does the opposite, as fae as i understand | 11:37 |
| gmaxwell | katu: I've _never_ heard anyone involved with rust make any kind of comparison that sounded remotely like "haskell with human face". | 11:37 |
| katu | sipa: well, i just ignore the whole functional/imperative for the moment. | 11:37 |
| DrHex_351 | Lol, i just watch your youtube Greg :) | 11:38 |
| katu | gmaxwell: ever heard of people comparing lua to scheme? | 11:38 |
| sipa | katu: that's like comparing christianity to buddhism and say "let's forget this god thing for a momemt" | 11:38 |
| DrHex_351 | and after 5 seconds, haskell is mentioned | 11:38 |
| katu | gmaxwell: dont be so focused on functional paradigm purity. thats just superficial. | 11:38 |
| katu | sipa: exactly :) | 11:39 |
| gmaxwell | huh? I didn't say anything about functional anything. | 11:39 |
| sipa | i may have brought that up... i believe it's dar deeper than that | 11:39 |
| sipa | haskell makes execution safe by hiding it | 11:39 |
| katu | sipa: both introduce fair amount of spooky action at a distance | 11:40 |
| gmaxwell | You made a statement which was more or less factual, and incorrect. I was just commenting on that; regardless of how similar they are (they really aren't similar), it's still not a comparison anyone is making. | 11:40 |
| katu | rust on the virtue of c++-done-right | 11:40 |
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| katu | haskell on the basis of ml-masturbation | 11:40 |
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| katu | gmaxwell: your discontent aside, sure you're right. haskell as a nazi-ml is far more confining than anything shared state procedural (no matter the amount of state safety provided via other means). | 11:44 |
| katu | meaning rust will probably deliver some large-scale system written in it. haskell? people stopped believing long ago. | 11:44 |
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| maaku | this is incredibly far off-topic. please take it to #haskell or #rust or whatever | 11:47 |
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| nonaTure | anybody wants to join at #blockchain-wizards? | 11:49 |
| kanzure | nope. | 11:50 |
| sipa | nope. | 11:50 |
| katu | nope. this is #haskell-wizards now. | 11:50 |
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| jgarzik | Nein | 11:51 |
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| fluffypony | lol, inb4 "censorship" claims | 11:54 |
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| waxwing | i'm going to #pinball-wizards | 12:14 |
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| nsh | "their security auditors have basically said that the mishmash of code is impossible to audit" # that means you pass automatically, right? | 12:55 |
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| AdrianG | whose code | 13:05 |
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| nsh | bitshares, i think | 13:08 |
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| tromp | i thought that was about Ethereum?! | 13:35 |
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| nsh | i probably misread | 13:49 |
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| bramc | Checking the channel logs is so annoying. We should be using slack instead (kidding! I'm kidding!) | 14:21 |
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| zooko | bramc: what's the best link for your proposed fee-selection algorithm? | 14:22 |
| kanzure | both slack and irc have tendency to have important stuff "fall out of view"; only my bookmarks remember the good parts :-/. | 14:22 |
| kanzure | zooko: https://medium.com/@bramcohen/how-wallets-can-handle-transaction-fees-ff5d020d14fb | 14:22 |
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| kanzure | or perhaps http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-November/011685.html | 14:22 |
| zooko | kanzure: thanks. | 14:23 |
| zooko | I don't use irc logs, nor slack. I ask kanzure. | 14:23 |
| kanzure | funny that's what i do | 14:23 |
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| nsh | .t https://twitter.com/petrmisan/status/664247517068922880 | 17:08 |
| yoleaux | nsh: Sorry, I don't know what timezone that is. If in doubt, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tz_database_time_zones for a list of options. | 17:08 |
| nsh | .tw https://twitter.com/petrmisan/status/664247517068922880 | 17:09 |
| yoleaux | László Babai's algorithm for the graph isomorphism problem in compulational complexity theory http://news.sciencemag.org/math/2015/11/mathematician-claims-breakthrough-complexity-theory (@petrmisan) | 17:09 |
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| nsh | .tw https://twitter.com/rrwilliams/status/664202657477718016 | 17:11 |
| yoleaux | New GI alg looks like a tour-de-force: a divide-and-conquer with many tough cases, arising from a std "individualization" on polylog nodes (@rrwilliams) | 17:11 |
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| orik | the second I joined this channel I got an automated message from MetaTrading5 | 18:27 |
| orik | 'bitcoin going to hit 1500$ read Metatrading5 Graphs/signal here: http://www.metatrading5.com' | 18:27 |
| orik | can someone kick him | 18:27 |
| -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+o gmaxwell] by ChanServ | 18:29 | |
| -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+b *!*@198.46.233.75] by gmaxwell | 18:29 | |
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| orik | thanks gmaxwell | 18:41 |
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| kanzure | clifford yapp asks various verbnurbs and solvespace questions, dunno if anyone wants to field them? https://groups.google.com/d/msg/openmanufacturing/SwBZlOPIA2E/BmLqjhllAAAJ | 18:52 |
| kanzure | oops wrong channel. ignore. | 18:52 |
| Cyndre | kanzure :) | 18:53 |
| Cyndre | is anyone playing with finding solvable solutions for bitcoin blocks instead of just bruteforcing? | 18:54 |
| kanzure | yes that's called cryptanalysis and you should go look for the people that try to find collisions in SHA or MD5 or other hash functions | 18:55 |
| Cyndre | well not finding collisions | 18:55 |
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| kanzure | what exactly do you think a broken hash function does? :-) | 18:55 |
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| Cyndre | I am not sure if the hash function is broken, but I believe bitcoins implementation and use of it is | 18:56 |
| amiller_ | Cyndre, there was some project about using sat solver to do mining, i'm sure that's the kind of thing you're tlaking about http://jheusser.github.io/2013/02/03/satcoin.html | 18:57 |
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| Cyndre | amiller_ lmao, I think thats what I need - and I believe that as difficulty gets higher building solvable blocks will get easier | 19:00 |
| amiller_ | Cyndre, easier? that doesn't sound right | 19:00 |
| Madars | yeah, by requiring more variables to be 0 you are further constraining the problem (but not overconstraining it), so it becomes harder. | 19:01 |
| tromp | the easiest will be finding a pre-image for all zeros, since that's the most constrained | 19:01 |
| Cyndre | amiller_ from what I am thinking its a flaw involving the sha256 where certain parts of the block influence the output hash more then others | 19:03 |
| amiller_ | oh, easier relatively speaking you mean | 19:04 |
| Cyndre | yes | 19:04 |
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| Cyndre | I haven't done huge data anaylsis yet, just playing with a few solved block and watching my poor 80 Mh/s | 19:05 |
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| Cyndre | I am noticing something wierd where either their is many solutions that meet a difficulty or none | 19:07 |
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| @gmaxwell | What you are looking at has been extensively studied by others. Anything you observe is more likely to be your own mistake than an actual interesting property. | 19:08 |
| Cyndre | gmaxwell: with certain get works I will find 3 or 4 solutions at lower difficulty before being handed new work, at which point I wont find any solutions for 20 minutes, then 3 or 4 in the same work load in less then 50 seconds (pool mining with a lower difficulty) | 19:10 |
| @gmaxwell | other people have traced the execution of sha2 on this problem extensively looking for things like early distinguishers for short solutions and not found any useful simple biases, even in many many billions of candidates.-- including using FPGA powered searches. | 19:10 |
| @gmaxwell | Cyndre: yes, but the same is expected from a random function. | 19:10 |
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| @gmaxwell | You must consider any evidence against the null hypothesis,... turns out that intution is very bad with randomness. | 19:11 |
| Cyndre | gmaxwell: random function would say that all work loads are most likely to have same amount of solution possibilitys | 19:11 |
| Cyndre | gmaxwell: not 5 solutions in 50 seconds, then 20 minutes wihtout finding any | 19:12 |
| @gmaxwell | ... | 19:12 |
| @sipa | Cyndre: what difficulty? | 19:12 |
| @sipa | Cyndre: and hashrate? | 19:12 |
| Cyndre | 51 from slush's pool and 80 Mh/s | 19:12 |
| tulip | that's going to be an effect of how mining software works. | 19:13 |
| Cyndre | and it repeatedly happens like that | 19:13 |
| @gmaxwell | Cyndre: actually from a uniformly random function you would expect to find many "too soon", go look at what the exponential distrubtion looks like. Also, take care if you're using pools. Some pools send 'test work' to new miners to check to see if you can return solutions at all. | 19:13 |
| @sipa | Cyndre: you would expect one solution per 45 minutes that way | 19:13 |
| @sipa | and what gmaxwell says | 19:13 |
| Cyndre | I will find 2 or 3 share solutions more often then I will just find 1 | 19:14 |
| @sipa | Cyndre: that's completely expected | 19:14 |
| tulip | Cyndre: slush's pool alters the difficulty of the work given dynamically. | 19:14 |
| Cyndre | yes | 19:14 |
| @gmaxwell | (and they can't just send one test because some hardware doesn't try all nonces, so they have to use multiple probes) | 19:14 |
| Cyndre | watched it for 4 days | 19:14 |
| @sipa | Cyndre: use proper hypothesis testing, and report back (not "I've been watching numbers, and I have an impresion") | 19:15 |
| Cyndre | ie http://www.righto.com/2014/02/bitcoin-mining-hard-way-algorithms.html table 1/3 of the way down which shows what I mean | 19:15 |
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| @sipa | and first make sure you're talking about consistant difficulty in the first place | 19:15 |
| @gmaxwell | also, please extract actual candidte inputs, don't yet yourself get tripped up by pre-verfied constructed shares from mining pools. | 19:16 |
| Cyndre | I didn't that link has a solved block on it - change a few data points and you get no solutions | 19:16 |
| @sipa | Cyndre: so? | 19:16 |
| Cyndre | and that solved block has many solutions at many difficulty levels | 19:17 |
| @sipa | quote from the text: | 19:17 |
| @gmaxwell | by definition it has a solution at every difficulty level at or below its target... | 19:17 |
| @sipa | I should point out that I cheated by starting with a block that could be successfully mined. | 19:17 |
| Cyndre | yes | 19:17 |
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| @sipa | please, go study probability distributions | 19:17 |
| Cyndre | but its the 20 other solutions with 3 to 13 leading zeros | 19:18 |
| Cyndre | should not exist | 19:18 |
| @gmaxwell | On what basis do you make that claim? | 19:18 |
| Cyndre | the fact that your only changing the nonce and finding that many different solutions in a solved block means that data in that block is *more solvable* then other blocks | 19:19 |
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| @sipa | Cyndre: it's perfectly expected that some ranges will result in more solutions than others; the number of solutions is approximately normally distributed | 19:19 |
| @gmaxwell | Thats an error in statistical reasoning. | 19:19 |
| Cyndre | its a mathmatical formula that determines the solvability of the block, there should be a pattern | 19:20 |
| @sipa | Cyndre: no, it's basic randomness | 19:20 |
| Cyndre | sipa: no its not, its reproducable | 19:20 |
| @gmaxwell | A perfectly random function with no predictable pattern will exhibit the properties you're describing right now. | 19:20 |
| @sipa | Cyndre: then do a hypothesis test and report back | 19:20 |
| Cyndre | not on 200 blocks | 19:20 |
| @sipa | Cyndre: not "it looks different to me" | 19:20 |
| @gmaxwell | (I am not saying that there isn't structure to sha256, obviously there is, or even saying you don't have useful access to the structure (though you almost certantly don't) --- only that what you're describing would also be true for a truely random function with no useful structure at all-- the claims your making need a proper hypothesis test, not a casual observation. Beyond being the basic stan | 19:23 |
| @gmaxwell | dard for science for such claims; many other people have looked and it is exceptionally unlikely that your casusal observation would catch something that evaded everyone else) | 19:23 |
| Cyndre | https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mOTrqckdetCoRxY5QkVcyQ7Z0gcYIH-Dc0tu7t9f7tw/edit though I almost certantly do | 19:24 |
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| @gmaxwell | seriously, you're going to argue with me like that? | 19:25 |
| Cyndre | you attacked me like I haven't looked at it all | 19:25 |
| Cyndre | 33 steps have been broken already | 19:26 |
| @sipa | Cyndre: gmaxwell is not saying that you're not looking. he's saying that instead of looking, you should be calculating the chance that what you are seeing is unusual | 19:26 |
| @gmaxwell | I'm not attacking you-- I dunno anything about you. But the claims you are making are not good science. Checking a couple cases and then saying you see a pattern without even analyizing what the base rate would be means you aren't doing the absolute minimum required to actually know if you know something or not. | 19:26 |
| Cyndre | sipa: just came in to ask if anyone was working on it, got the sat solver which is way cooler - just don't want to waste my time writting a bunch of software if its been done | 19:26 |
| @sipa | Cyndre: sha256 with 33 steps is broken for collision search. that means that for 34 steps *no* correlations are known. | 19:27 |
| Cyndre | yes, but I don't think sha256 is broken, I think the implementation in this case is predictable | 19:28 |
| @gmaxwell | Cyndre: rather than trying to discourage you, I'm trying to get you thinking down the path of the things you need to do to actually make progress (if there is progress to be made!). | 19:28 |
| @sipa | Cyndre: if what you are saying it is true, SHA256 is by every definition broken | 19:28 |
| @sipa | Cyndre: if the result is in the slightest way distinguishable from a random function, it would be considered cryptographically broken | 19:29 |
| @gmaxwell | sipa: well technically its distinguishable by anyone with a copy of the circuit. :P | 19:29 |
| @sipa | gmaxwell: you know what i mean :) | 19:29 |
| @gmaxwell | hehe | 19:29 |
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| Cyndre | I suck at probability math - what are the odds that you would find at least 20 solutions with 4 or more preceding zeros from changing the nonce from 1 to 4,294,967,295 | 19:31 |
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| @sipa | Cyndre: zeroes in what base? | 19:32 |
| gmaxwell | given that there is one soution with a boatload of zeros- so you should probably reduce that 20 to 19 in your question. | 19:33 |
| Cyndre | 16 sipa | 19:33 |
| @sipa | Cyndre: so that means the first 16 bits of those solutions are 0? which means every attempt has a 1 in 2^16 chance of matching your criteria | 19:34 |
| @sipa | are you sure you don't mean 8 zeroes? 4 zeroes would occur much more frequently | 19:35 |
| Cyndre | I need more anaylsis - the cgminer doesn't output enough data to show it, but I shouldn't be finding 4 solutions at difficulty x in 50 seconds (time it takes me to try all on my gpu) and then nothing for 20 minutes | 19:37 |
| @sipa | are you sure those are on the same difficulty? | 19:38 |
| Cyndre | yes | 19:38 |
| Cyndre | cgminer outputs a difficulty change | 19:38 |
| Cyndre | 3.7.2 | 19:38 |
| Cyndre | and using cgwatcher to watch get work requests | 19:39 |
| @sipa | what difficulty? | 19:39 |
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| Cyndre | difficulty changed to 256 | 19:40 |
| Cyndre | difficulty changed to 51 | 19:40 |
| Cyndre | which is where I normally sit | 19:40 |
| Cyndre | now 10 | 19:41 |
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