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| bramc | Is bitcoin-ng specifically meant to solve all this miner conspiracy forkage stuff? | 01:02 |
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| gmaxwell | no, though it decouples size related propagation latency from the mastership race. | 01:09 |
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| gmaxwell | What you can do is multiply once, then double many times (cheper than an add when j-invariant=0), then do a batch modular inversion. Then use the efficient endomorphism to get thre point from every point for the cost of just a FE multiply. | 01:43 |
| gmaxwell | The result is something on the order of 15 million per second. | 01:43 |
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| gmaxwell | aj_: which is why I was able to get ones with 4-5 bytes of fixed space. | 01:43 |
| aj_ | gmaxwell: so 15 zero bytes means 4 zero bytes in s using g/2; which means 4GH when signing normally, which means it doesn't work well with CPUs? | 01:43 |
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| sipa | gmaxwell: i considered restricting the size of the signature, but dismissed it as too slow to be usable | 01:46 |
| aj_ | gmaxwell: i was thinking even 3 zero bytes in s, at 16MH was a bit worrying if you want to do this with a client running on a phone or similar... | 01:46 |
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| gmaxwell | aj_: well, I was assuming around 2^30 work-- the time is all the hash the field operations are free by comparison. It can be fundged a bit. | 01:46 |
| gmaxwell | aj_: in theory it works without any S restriction, but I wasn't happy with the security parameter due to splitting the cost between R and S being possible.. | 01:47 |
| aj_ | gmaxwell: though i guess since you're revealing P anyway, you could just outsource the whole problem anyway | 01:47 |
| gmaxwell | sipa: in particular the fact that we know the discrete log of a point that as 11 bytes of zeros is actually useful for something! | 01:48 |
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| sipa | gmaxwell: very true... | 01:48 |
| sipa | i hadn't considered using that point | 01:48 |
| gmaxwell | aj_: if you assume an equal split (perhaps not rational because of the computational cost) then you get half the bits of security, so my figures give about 60 bit security. | 01:49 |
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| gmaxwell | aj: actually I think the R grinding is cheaper than the S grinding. group_double_var: 0.199us + 3* fe_mul 0.0310us = 3 points. or .0766/point.. about 8x faster than sha256^2 for my laptop. | 01:52 |
| sipa | gmaxwell: security against what? | 01:53 |
| gmaxwell | sipa: the attack is that someone who doesn't want to reveal grids a lot of R values to find an unusually small one, then takes the best and grinds S values (by changing the transaction and hashing) | 01:54 |
| gmaxwell | E.g. if we only required it to be the smallest you get from R, the attacker can actually grind that: 90 bits smaller is hard, but 2x 40 bits much better. | 01:55 |
| sipa | i'm missing something | 01:55 |
| sipa | we don't want people to not reveal | 01:55 |
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| gmaxwell | sipa: my forced reveal scriptpubkey is OP_SIZE 57 OP_LESSTHENOREQAL OP_VERIFY <P> OP_CHECKSIGVERIFY. To get that size you'd use the special R and do 2^30 hashing work to get S small enough. | 01:56 |
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| sipa | ah, you mean that someone is able to satisfy the signature without it being revealing | 01:57 |
| gmaxwell | If instead I required <=61 instead, which is the size you get from the special R and a random S then an attacker can do 2^40 work to get a small but not heroically small R; then 2^40 work to get a small S. | 01:57 |
| gmaxwell | right. | 01:57 |
| sipa | i assumed the size was chosen small enough to make that impossible | 01:57 |
| aj | gmaxwell: 2**32 hashing work no? you still have to have 4*8=32 zero bits to drop 8 bytes, then another zero bit to not add a zero byte back to avoid it being a negative number? | 01:57 |
| sipa | gmaxwell: 60-bit of antisecurity :) | 01:58 |
| gmaxwell | aj: freeking der encoding. :P well you save one bit of hashing work becaues of the low-s flip. | 01:59 |
| gmaxwell | (if your result is in the upper half you flip and it's still a valid signature.) | 01:59 |
| gmaxwell | aj: you and andytoshi should writeup your solution to; which you both independantly came up with. (I gave up on that approach too early when sighash flags frustrated me) | 02:00 |
| sipa | so size 57... that means 50 bytes of actual r+s data | 02:01 |
| sipa | or 199 bits in r and s on average | 02:02 |
| sipa | gmaxwell: you can require two different small signatures, for a public key and a related one | 02:04 |
| sipa | oh, that just doubles the amount of s work | 02:05 |
| gmaxwell | oh thats interesting actually I think there might be something to combining the two approaches. | 02:06 |
| gmaxwell | oh darn nah, bitcoin screws us. | 02:07 |
| gmaxwell | well I guess but it's more gross. | 02:08 |
| sipa | i was thinking along the line of requiring two identical signatires, one for the real public key and one for a public key you choose to reveal | 02:08 |
| gmaxwell | You compute P's reveal signature for a message of 1. And give me the hash of it. | 02:08 |
| sipa | but that's something someone without the private key can do too | 02:08 |
| aj | gmaxwell: https://gist.github.com/ajtowns/3fd596af4f81042ef6ac updated with hopefully better numbers, and andytoshi/my approach | 02:09 |
| gmaxwell | sipa: identical signature constraints is what aj and andytoshi came up with. | 02:09 |
| gmaxwell | there is a non-smallness related solution via that but it gets ugly to handle due to sighash flags. | 02:09 |
| aj | gmaxwell, sipa: i think if you require 5 small signatures, you get forced to do a squared amount of work, no matter how clever you are with different sighash options | 02:10 |
| sipa | what is sqrt(G).x ? | 02:10 |
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| sipa | or (G/2).x ? | 02:10 |
| sipa | (specifically: is its high bit set?) | 02:11 |
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| gmaxwell | 00000000000000000000003b78ce563f89a0ed9414f5aa28ad0d96d6795f9c63 | 02:15 |
| gmaxwell | so 3. | 02:15 |
| gmaxwell | "no" so you get the padding. | 02:16 |
| sipa | so: 7 bytes overhead, 21 bytes r, leaves 29 bytes for s | 02:19 |
| sipa | which is 2^24 work | 02:19 |
| sipa | (2^25, but you get one bit from flipping) | 02:19 |
| gmaxwell | yea, I'd missed the padding and intended to be more work than that. | 02:19 |
| gmaxwell | but as I said; sercurity level here is a bit squishy. | 02:20 |
| sipa | less, i hope? | 02:20 |
| sipa | 2^24 work to produce a signature seems painful | 02:21 |
| gmaxwell | it's like 11 seconds. | 02:21 |
| sipa | on a desktop | 02:21 |
| gmaxwell | on a single core, in fact. Yes, on mobile that would be obnoxious, though it could be delegated. | 02:22 |
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| gmaxwell | longer term we'll of course get substr back, and have this sanely. (or via a xG test) | 02:22 |
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| gmaxwell | You see the other solution? | 02:23 |
| sipa | gmaxwell: r does not need padding | 02:24 |
| sipa | gmaxwell: just started reading | 02:24 |
| gmaxwell | oh because it doesn't start with a zero _byte_, sorry, 3am. | 02:25 |
| sipa | eh | 02:28 |
| sipa | no | 02:28 |
| sipa | because it does start with a zero bit | 02:28 |
| gmaxwell | 3am | 02:31 |
| gmaxwell | I am sticking to this story. | 02:31 |
| gmaxwell | It is aided by the fact that I am saying it's 3am, while it's actually only 2:31. | 02:31 |
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| sipa | i'm sute it's past 3am in some timezones | 02:35 |
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| sipa | mine, specificallt, where it's already past 11am! | 02:35 |
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| -!- Topic for #bitcoin-wizards: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja | 11:06 | |
| -!- Topic set by sipa [~pw@unaffiliated/sipa1024] [Thu Oct 29 17:53:34 2015] | 11:06 | |
| [Users #bitcoin-wizards] | 11:06 | |
| [@ChanServ ] [ c-cex-yuriy ] [ Giszmo ] [ jonasschnelli ] [ MRL-Relay ] [ smk ] | 11:06 | |
| [ [7] ] [ catcow ] [ gmaxwell ] [ jouke ] [ Myagui ] [ smooth_ ] | 11:06 | |
| [ [ace] ] [ catlasshrugged ] [ gnusha ] [ jrayhawk ] [ N0S4A2 ] [ sneak ] | 11:06 | |
| [ [d__d] ] [ cfields_ ] [ gnusha_ ] [ jtimon ] [ nanotube ] [ so ] | 11:06 | |
| [ [Derek]_ ] [ ciege ] [ go1111111 ] [ justanotheruser] [ nba_btchip ] [ sparetire ] | 11:06 | |
| [ _whitelogger ] [ cluckj ] [ grandmaster ] [ K1773R ] [ neha ] [ sparetire_ ] | 11:06 | |
| [ a5m0 ] [ cocoBTC ] [ grantsmith ] [ kanzure ] [ nephyrin ] [ spinza ] | 11:06 | |
| [ AaronvanW ] [ CodeArtix ] [ GreenIsMyPepper] [ kaptah ] [ nickler ] [ Starduster ] | 11:06 | |
| [ adam3us1 ] [ CoinMuncher ] [ gribble ] [ katu ] [ nsh- ] [ stevenroose ] | 11:06 | |
| [ adams__ ] [ comboy ] [ grubles ] [ Keefe ] [ null_radix ] [ stonecoldpat1] | 11:06 | |
| [ adlai ] [ Cory ] [ Guest1234 ] [ keus ] [ nwilcox|afk ] [ STRML ] | 11:06 | |
| [ AdrianG_ ] [ coryfields_ ] [ Guest1235 ] [ kinlo ] [ OneFixt_ ] [ SwedFTP ] | 11:06 | |
| [ AEM ] [ crescend1 ] [ Guest46756 ] [ Kireji ] [ optimator ] [ Taek42 ] | 11:06 | |
| [ afdudley ] [ crw|away ] [ Guest53307 ] [ kisspunch ] [ otoburb_ ] [ TBI ] | 11:06 | |
| [ aj ] [ d4de ] [ Guest62454 ] [ koshii ] [ OxADADA ] [ TBI_ ] | 11:06 | |
| [ Alanius ] [ d9b4bef9 ] [ Guest79101 ] [ kumavis ] [ p15 ] [ TD-Linux ] | 11:06 | |
| [ alexkuck ] [ dansmith_btc ] [ guruvan ] [ kyuupichan ] [ paci ] [ Tenhi ] | 11:06 | |
| [ alpalp ] [ dave4925_h ] [ Guyver2 ] [ larraboj ] [ PaulCapestany ] [ thrasher` ] | 11:06 | |
| [ amiller_ ] [ davec ] [ gwillen ] [ lclc ] [ paveljanik ] [ Tiraspol ] | 11:06 | |
| [ Anduck ] [ davout_ ] [ harding ] [ lecusemble ] [ penjenayah ] [ toomim ] | 11:06 | |
| [ andytoshi ] [ dEBRUYNE ] [ harrow` ] [ LeMiner2 ] [ petertodd ] [ tripleslash_a] | 11:06 | |
| [ Apocalyptic ] [ dEBRUYNE_ ] [ hashtagg ] [ livegnik ] [ phantomcircuit ] [ tromp_ ] | 11:06 | |
| [ archobserver ] [ devrandom ] [ heath ] [ livegnik_ ] [ phy1729 ] [ tromp__ ] | 11:06 | |
| [ arowser ] [ dgenr8 ] [ helo ] [ lmatteis ] [ pigeons ] [ ttttemp ] | 11:06 | |
| [ artifexd ] [ digitalmagus8 ] [ humd1ng3r ] [ lnovy ] [ poggy ] [ vdo ] | 11:06 | |
| [ arubi ] [ dignork ] [ huseby_ ] [ Logicwax ] [ pozitron ] [ warptangent ] | 11:06 | |
| [ asoltys ] [ DougieBot5000 ] [ ibrightly ] [ lomax_ ] [ PRab ] [ warren ] | 11:06 | |
| [ badmofo ] [ earthrise ] [ iddo ] [ Luke-Jr ] [ prosody ] [ warren_2 ] | 11:06 | |
| [ BananaLotus ] [ ebfull ] [ indolering ] [ luny ] [ PsychoticBoy ] [ waxwing ] | 11:06 | |
| [ bassguitarman] [ Eliel ] [ instagibbs ] [ Mably ] [ publius1788 ] [ weex_ ] | 11:06 | |
| [ baurusdb ] [ Emcy_ ] [ ir2ivps5 ] [ Madars ] [ Pugg ] [ wizkid057 ] | 11:06 | |
| [ bedeho__ ] [ epscy ] [ isis ] [ MagikSquirrel ] [ qawap_ ] [ wpalczynski ] | 11:06 | |
| [ berndj ] [ eric ] [ Jaamg ] [ malte ] [ rasengan ] [ wumpus ] | 11:06 | |
| [ bildramer ] [ espes ] [ jaromil ] [ mappum ] [ roasbeef ] [ xeon-enouf ] | 11:06 | |
| [ bitkarma ] [ execute ] [ jbenet ] [ mariorz ] [ robmyers ] [ Xzibit17 ] | 11:06 | |
| [ blkdb ] [ face ] [ jcorgan ] [ matsjj ] [ roconnor ] [ yang ] | 11:06 | |
| [ BlueMatt_ ] [ Fistful_of_Coins] [ jeremias ] [ Meeh_ ] [ runeks ] [ Ylbam ] | 11:06 | |
| [ bobke ] [ fkhan ] [ Jeremy_Rand ] [ melvster ] [ ryan-c ] [ Yoghur114 ] | 11:06 | |
| [ BrainOverfl0w] [ fluffypony ] [ jeremyrubin ] [ midnightmagic ] [ s1w ] [ yoleaux ] | 11:06 | |
| [ brand0 ] [ forrestv ] [ jessepollak ] [ mikolalysenko ] [ sdaftuar ] [ yorick ] | 11:06 | |
| [ bsm1175321 ] [ frankenmint ] [ jgarzik ] [ mm_1 ] [ seg ] [ zmachine ] | 11:06 | |
| [ bsm1175322 ] [ gavinandresen ] [ jlrubin ] [ MoALTz ] [ SgtStroopwafel_] [ zmanian_ ] | 11:06 | |
| [ btcdrak ] [ ggreer ] [ jlyndon ] [ Monthrect ] [ SheffieldCrypto] [ zxzzt ] | 11:06 | |
| [ Burrito ] [ ghtdak ] [ joesmoe ] [ morcos ] [ shesek ] | 11:06 | |
| [ c-cex-finch ] [ gielbier ] [ jojva ] [ mountaingoat ] [ sipa ] | 11:06 | |
| -!- Irssi: #bitcoin-wizards: Total of 268 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 267 normal] | 11:06 | |
| -!- Channel #bitcoin-wizards created Mon Feb 25 23:24:47 2013 | 11:06 | |
| -!- Irssi: Join to #bitcoin-wizards was synced in 12 secs | 11:06 | |
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| andytoshi | gmaxwell: hah! i'm torn as to whether i should've gotten that | 11:34 |
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| andytoshi | (the only reason i would've is that i had the hint "gmaxwell figured this" which should've hinted at what tricks would be used; without that i'd be hopeless, this is insane) | 11:35 |
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| aj | andytoshi: fwiw, http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2015-November/000344.html | 11:35 |
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| andytoshi | and thanks for writing up our solution aj :) | 11:38 |
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| aj | andytoshi: don't suppose you went so far as to translate it to actual script? | 11:38 |
| sipa | happy to see you guys were thinking along the same lines as me | 11:38 |
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| sipa | except you actually got somewhere :) | 11:38 |
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| andytoshi | aj: no, not that far, though i was close | 11:39 |
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| andytoshi | like, i came up with this while studying my script parser, so i was thinking in terms of opcodes anyway | 11:39 |
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| andytoshi | but the stack-swapping and equality checking (or duplication) seemed like a lot of work :) | 11:40 |
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| andytoshi | does the cost for renting hw go up if you try to rent a ton at once? aj's mail gives numbers like "grind for a week to steal" but you can't start grinding til you have an output to spend from, and once that exists the CLTV starts ticking | 11:44 |
| andytoshi | so you'll only have hours or so (right?) | 11:44 |
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| sipa | andytoshi: that's pretty ugly still... those times may change significantly over time | 11:45 |
| aj | depends how long the locktime is? some of the handwavy numbers for lightning are relatively high (2 days per hop, 19 hops) | 11:46 |
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| aj | (you've got to have a pretty strong pre-calculated r for that though) | 11:47 |
| andytoshi | oh, derp, i forgot r can be precalculated | 11:47 |
| andytoshi | so you have unlimited time in which to do that part | 11:47 |
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| aj | yeah, and you also have to be careful not to use that r to reveal a secret someone else already knows, or to reveal the same secret twice | 11:48 |
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| aj | err, "or to avoid revealing the same secret twice" rather | 11:49 |
| andytoshi | well, as soon as you use it everyone knows its discrete log, so then anybody can use it for their own stealing i think | 11:49 |
| andytoshi | i'm unsure what you mean by "revealing the same secret twice" | 11:50 |
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| afdudley | interdependent secrets is how I read that. | 11:50 |
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| aj | as in "what's the preimage for X?" "cheat with r=blah" then later, "what's the preimage for X?" cheat with the same r=blah, combine the two cheats lets you work out r and the preimage for X | 11:51 |
| aj | lets you work out N from r i mean | 11:51 |
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| andytoshi | oh, right, i forgot that cheaters don't reveal anything :P | 11:51 |
| andytoshi | yes, you're right, the r is single-use only | 11:52 |
| aj | (once the log of your clever r is known it's no better than g/2) | 11:52 |
| andytoshi | yup | 11:52 |
| aj | r is okay to reuse for different secrets though afaict | 11:52 |
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| andytoshi | yes, it is | 11:53 |
| andytoshi | (which is why yours and my solution required 3 sigs instead of 2, as i'd initially thought) | 11:53 |
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| aj | haha, i got that wrong too :( | 11:53 |
| andytoshi | lol! sounds like we had exactly the same conversation with gmaxwell | 11:54 |
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| andytoshi | so. a good thing about this is that the security is time-sensitive. like, i believe the posted benchmark numbers today but maybe not next year, but i can freely use the scheme today knowing that the window for cheating is limited by the CLTV period | 11:55 |
| andytoshi | secondly, a grinded r can only be used once. so it can only be used to cheat on a single lightning tx (which i think are limited to like $10 worth?) | 11:56 |
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| aj | hmm? i thought we just agreed a grinded r can be reused on many transactions (as long as the secrets to be revealed are different) ? | 11:57 |
| andytoshi | oh ugh yes | 11:57 |
| aj | it's probably like $15 per tx now | 11:57 |
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| aj | ("how do i cheat lightning txs?" "you just grind r" "oh, i'v already got that app!") | 11:59 |
| chmod755 | what? | 11:59 |
| andytoshi | right aj | 11:59 |
| andytoshi | having a granularity of bytes rather than bits is nice | 12:00 |
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| andytoshi | chmod755: the context of this conversation is https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2015-November/000344.html | 12:00 |
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| andytoshi | chmod755: the "SNARKless scheme" is https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2015-November/000314.html i believe | 12:02 |
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| andytoshi | chmod755: the goal is an atomic swap without revealing hash preimages, which are bad for privacy as they're trivially linkable | 12:05 |
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| chmod755 | andytoshi, are you working on that? | 12:17 |
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| andytoshi | chmod755: not now. perhaps i will eventually :) | 13:23 |
| andytoshi | to this point i haven't done much of anything lightning-related | 13:24 |
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| Traumzauberbaum | hi | 14:44 |
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| ielo | gmaxwell, http://i.imgur.com/yrXcosl.jpg well well well | 15:39 |
| kanzure | didn't we ban you | 15:43 |
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| kanzure | hmm, was a different channel | 15:45 |
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| --- Log closed Fri Nov 27 00:00:36 2015 | ||
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