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| aj | gmaxwell: hmm, there's no straightforward way to sign non-standard txns (like the "reveal private key" constructs we were discussing) using bitcoin core, is there? | 04:41 |
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| gmaxwell | there is a known way to change bitcoin core so that it can sign for arbritary scripts... but no one has implemented it yet. Though for that particular script, it wouldn't work. (because you need to fix the nonce.) | 04:43 |
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| parzzix | Hello | 06:05 |
| parzzix | Was looking for suggestions on which Crypto coin would be best to start with.. | 06:05 |
| parzzix | there are way to many options | 06:05 |
| parzzix | Somthing with a long forseable future | 06:06 |
| sipa | #bitcoin | 06:07 |
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| parzzix | Ok, suggestion on BC wallet? I'm a linux user. | 06:31 |
| fluffypony | parzzix: #bitcoin | 06:34 |
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| AdrianG | my company is building a private blockchain-based product. | 08:41 |
| AdrianG | will go live in a few months, supposedly we already have business deals inked. | 08:41 |
| kanzure | and? | 08:42 |
| AdrianG | they decided to use a permissioned blockchain :< | 08:42 |
| AdrianG | our partner/clients are banks and govts. and they really cringe when they hear the word bitcoin, apparently | 08:42 |
| bsm1175322 | And we really cringe when we hear "permissioned blockchain" -- because it's got another name: a fucking database. | 08:44 |
| AdrianG | yup. | 08:45 |
| bsm1175322 | Did everyone cringe when they heard "internet" at first because it was full of porn? | 08:45 |
| AdrianG | bsm1175322: its just the hard cold reality, unfortunately. | 08:45 |
| Taek | a blockchain is a step better than a standard database, it's got history and a bunch of rules you can use to make sure every transaction was correct/sane | 08:45 |
| bsm1175322 | Believe me, I know. But pandering to idiocy will get you nowhere. Educate... | 08:45 |
| AdrianG | bsm1175322: it was pointless. | 08:46 |
| AdrianG | blockchain - gud. bitcoin - bad. | 08:46 |
| AdrianG | its like it was burned into their heads with a hot wire. | 08:46 |
| bsm1175322 | Taek: adding cryptography to databases needs to be done. Multiple histories is not a new thing with snapshotting. | 08:46 |
| Taek | bsm1175322: you don't need a blockchain to get the benefits of permissioned blockchains, but for many companies it's a significant step up from what they are currently doing | 08:47 |
| bsm1175322 | There are a number of ways to take good ideas from bitcoin and add them to databases. But let's call a duck a duck: it's a database. And we should do all that. | 08:47 |
| AdrianG | besides, everyone seems to be convinced that bitcoin's 10 min confirmation times are really bad lol. | 08:47 |
| AdrianG | but instant confirmation on a private chain is a major improvement. lol. | 08:47 |
| bsm1175322 | AdrianG: Because T+3 is better. | 08:47 |
| AdrianG | bsm1175322: our application has nothing to do with settlement. | 08:47 |
| AdrianG | we sell identity proofs/identity notarization type of thing | 08:48 |
| bsm1175322 | The fact of the matter is that the financial world is adversarial. Instant confirmation times are a pipe dream because JP Morgan will never let Wells Fargo have the last word on whether a transaction is final. | 08:48 |
| AdrianG | fedramp/fips certified identity provider. | 08:48 |
| kanzure | so you work for verisign? | 08:48 |
| bsm1175322 | AdrianG: which company? | 08:48 |
| chmod755 | AdrianG, are you working for bitnation? | 08:48 |
| AdrianG | no, not bitnation | 08:48 |
| AdrianG | i think its best to keep my company name out of this discussion | 08:48 |
| amiller_ | this seems like a better topic for #bitcoin unless you're going somewhere else with it | 08:49 |
| kanzure | agreed. | 08:49 |
| AdrianG | only technical discussion here? | 08:49 |
| bsm1175322 | I do think there's a role for identity here (and back on topic): I recently proposed a "permissionsed blockchain" that was actually a pub/sub database. Wouldn't work for transactions though. But if I want to subscribe to your database updates... | 08:50 |
| bsm1175322 | pub/sub has no consensus. There's no chain tip. | 08:50 |
| kanzure | yep, usually only technical, although theoretical work and speculation in many areas is ok | 08:50 |
| AdrianG | bsm1175322: there will be no subscriptions. | 08:50 |
| amiller_ | AdrianG, yes! but technical can loosely include code, science, and even long term or "out there" ideas | 08:50 |
| kanzure | yup what amiller said | 08:50 |
| sipa | i think "permissionee blockchains" are very useful; except they're really just an auditable cryptographic transcript of another consensus system | 08:52 |
| sipa | it is not a database, it's an audit log.of one | 08:53 |
| Taek | ^ | 08:53 |
| AdrianG | sipa: the only problem nobody understands that. at the moment, it seems to be an attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole. | 08:53 |
| katu | bsm1175322: the only difference from pub/sub is plausible proof of history (ie timestamp) in otherwise centrally issued scenario | 08:53 |
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| sipa | AdrianG: agree, and it annoys me greatly :) | 08:53 |
| AdrianG | the major issue with using bitcoin for identity proof/notarization is possibly txn backlogs | 08:54 |
| AdrianG | from my perspective | 08:54 |
| amiller_ | what's actually changed, then? i think there's an important shift but i don't quite have my finger on it... the techniques for audit logs have been around for a long time, auditing computer evidence has been an explicit property of many databases designs at least in theory | 08:54 |
| AdrianG | which can be unpredictable at times. i can live with 10 min conf times. | 08:54 |
| sipa | then revive chronobit :) | 08:54 |
| bsm1175322 | It's not so simple. There's pub/sub, audit log, ACID databases, and PoW blockchains. I don't think I've heard anyone succinctly/correctly describe the spectrum. | 08:54 |
| sipa | it was the perfect, zero-cost, reliable, scalable timestamping system | 08:54 |
| AdrianG | perfect lol? | 08:55 |
| katu | amiller_: it's to have stronger guarantee than double entry | 08:55 |
| sipa | except it was written in perl, and needed p2pool :) | 08:55 |
| Taek | amiller_: I think one of the big differences is the amount of publicity the blockchain has. Nontechnical people in important positions are realizing how useful this stuff is b/c of the popularity. | 08:55 |
| AdrianG | perl is erfect ever real language. | 08:55 |
| AdrianG | sipa: why p2pool ? | 08:56 |
| bsm1175322 | And nontechnical people are telling me how to write software. :-/ | 08:56 |
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| bsm1175322 | not good... | 08:56 |
| katu | as arbitration of double entry disputes is costly (and prone to fraud). imagine if LIBOR rates were voted on blockchain, instead of mutual "cross checking" | 08:56 |
| sipa | AdrianG: too long to explain here; it actually has advantages (higher accuracy, as it timestamps into the p2pool sharechain), but it does rely on p2pool having a significant hashrate | 08:56 |
| AdrianG | sipa: what level of hashrate? | 08:57 |
| AdrianG | sipa: can i bribe some other miner to act as my pool for timestamping like that? | 08:57 |
| sipa | AdrianG: yes, that was the intent | 08:57 |
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| kanzure | katu: i could easily come up with a "on-blockchain libor scheme" that is vulnerable to collusion. i'd certainly prefer any on-blockchain libor scheme over the alternatives anyway, but that's beside the point i think. | 08:58 |
| sipa | AdrianG: miners get paid for commitments, and they store a merkle root in the chain, and givr you the branch | 08:58 |
| bsm1175322 | Thanks sipa, I hadn't seen Chronobit. So the only reason it's a better timestamp server is faster block rate? | 08:58 |
| sipa | it has o(1) overhead per time unit, doesn't bloat the blockchain or thenutxo set, is reliable (if adopted by miners), ... | 08:58 |
| AdrianG | sipa: minerS or a single large mining pool enough? | 08:59 |
| bsm1175322 | FWIW I can build a VERY accurate (as fast as the network will allow) timestamper on top of a DAG-chain... | 08:59 |
| AdrianG | we can pay miners for that. | 08:59 |
| bsm1175322 | Because I can get rid of the block time. The effective resolution becomes the propagation time across the network. | 09:00 |
| katu | kanzure: the point is always about disputes - what happens when somebody rigs the system? the matter of proof of knownledge (though i think they dont even do that, maybe they should consider it first) are onchain or pub/sub indeed is unrelated. | 09:00 |
| katu | kanzure: ie the argument that trying to rig the system (i think thats equivalent to trying to corner the market?) just becomes accepted reality. "machines"/"hashpower" being the ultimate jury. | 09:01 |
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| AdrianG | chmod755: bitnation is interesting. | 09:05 |
| chmod755 | AdrianG, I'm going to test their service on dec 1 | 09:07 |
| AdrianG | test what exactly? | 09:22 |
| chmod755 | AdrianG, http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/bitnation-estonian-government-start-spreading-sovereign-jurisdiction-blockchain-1530923 | 09:22 |
| bsm1175322 | OOooooh! | 09:23 |
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| chmod755 | blockchain notary service | 09:23 |
| AdrianG | no way. amazing. | 09:23 |
| AdrianG | you have estonian e-residency? | 09:23 |
| chmod755 | AdrianG, yep | 09:23 |
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| AdrianG | you travelled there in person? | 09:24 |
| chmod755 | AdrianG, no, you can get it from the embassy | 09:24 |
| AdrianG | oh so the embassy part is already functional. i gotta sign up for it then. | 09:24 |
| AdrianG | chmod755: what do you use it for, your e-residency? | 09:26 |
| chmod755 | i guess this is off topic here ... | 09:27 |
| kanzure | this thing? http://cointelegraph.com/news/112725/bitnation-core-dev-team-resigns-speaks-out-before-crowdsale | 09:32 |
| kanzure | yes it's off-topic | 09:32 |
| AdrianG | geez another crowdale. | 09:39 |
| AdrianG | sale* | 09:39 |
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| gmaxwell | New definition of a waste of time: arguing with someone who's never looked into how bitcoin works, or even run a bitcoin node about details of the unsafty of unconfirmed transactions. Jesus. | 18:20 |
| gmaxwell | The whole idea of "first" as something with universal truth is really firmly stuck in people's heads. | 18:21 |
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| kang_ | gmaxwell: Hire a secretary :) | 18:23 |
| TD-Linux | gmaxwell, I'm sorry it seems you went to reddit by mistake | 18:25 |
| gmaxwell | TD-Linux: You'd make a good clippy. | 18:25 |
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| TD-Linux | oh wow wtf I actually went to reddit and it's worse than I thought | 18:47 |
| gwillen | TD-Linux: I'm so sorry | 18:47 |
| * adlai went, saw "Bitcoin won't scale http://i.imgur.com/z22Auvb.jpg" meme as top post, closes tab while things are going well | 18:54 | |
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| aj | TD-Linux: it's gone pretty bananas the last couple of days... | 18:58 |
| aj | gmaxwell: i figured out how to sign non-standard things with python; now just for manually selected r-values... | 18:59 |
| aj | gmaxwell: are there any previous practical examples/use-cases of people using codeseparator? | 19:01 |
| adlai | dna uses it all over the place | 19:03 |
| aj | adlai: dna as genes, or is there a bitcoin related thing with that acronym? (omg.. "genecoin -- a service to backup your dna / upload it to the blockchain") | 19:04 |
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| adlai | dna as introns | 19:06 |
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| sipa | adlai: introns? | 23:17 |
| gmaxwell | sipa: non coding sections of DNA; adlai's reference is to the fact that they get cut out by walking backwards during protein synthesis like codeseperator works. :) | 23:19 |
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| sipa | oh | 23:20 |
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| --- Log closed Sun Nov 29 00:00:38 2015 | ||
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