2015-12-01.log

--- Log opened Tue Dec 01 00:00:40 2015
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jonasschnellisipa: Good idea (asking about Ram)!04:25
jonasschnellisipa: would it be possible to change the dbcache while bitcoin-core (d/qt) is running (in theory!)?04:26
jonasschnellisomething like 1) flush 2) change cache size04:26
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Guest22844The P versus NP problem is a major unsolved problem in computer science. Informally, it asks whether every problem whose solution can be quickly verified by a computer can also be quickly solved by a computer.09:54
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sipasounds right, but what is the context?09:57
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phyl729none!09:59
* Taek was intruiged, now is sad10:00
sipaso it is context free?10:01
TaekI tried really hard not to laugh out loud, but failed.10:02
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MRL-Relay[tacotime] thanks, i needed that10:14
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kang_"The Moral Character of Cryptographic Work" by Phil Rogaway (man behind OAEP, PSS, OCB, UMAC, FPE, XTS) http://web.cs.ucdavis.edu/~rogaway/papers/moral-fn.pdf10:54
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SomeTI had a kinda theoretical idea with bitcoin, I was thinking of adding some sort of 'layer'? to it to add an extra kinda layer of security using stenograpgy, would this be amicable do you reckon or a waste of time? I am at the beginnings of understanding the bitcoin source code at the moment15:55
nshso this is an active area of research, but not really using that kind of layered abstraction15:57
nshconfidential transactions is one implementation, in testing with the alpha sidechain15:58
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nshother efforts use zero-knowledge argument systems to allow for arithmetic properties of transactions to be verified (no money appears from nowhere) while maintaining the privacy of transaction participants and amounts to some degree15:59
nshunless you mean concealing the fact that a user it interacting with the payment network in terms of traffic15:59
nsh*is15:59
tulipSomeT: stenography probably isn't what you're looking for at any rate, it's obfuscation rather than security.16:00
AdrianGtulip: you could splice in encrypted data that looks nearly random, even if extracted.16:01
nsh*steganography is not necessarily obfuscation and can be used with high security strong cryptography16:01
nsh(in fact it's kinda silly to use it without first strongly-encrypting)16:01
AdrianGsteganography is about plausible deniability, rather than obfuscation, imo.16:02
tulipit's still obfuscating the cipher text though, rather than having any security in itself though.16:02
SomeTI mean I was looking at using it at that level not just adding one layer of stenography to it16:02
SomeTI am still in the extreme early stages, I just thought this would be an interesting project to help me get from intermediate c++ to advanced kinda level16:03
tulipAdrianG: maybe, I personally filed it away as something neat but with limited real world application.16:05
bramcSteganography generally speaking adds a ridiculous amount of overhead, the covertext:ciphertext ration is about 500:1 on a warm day16:06
SomeTok but logically that over head can be managed somehow?16:08
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tulipdepends what you're thinking of doing with it in relation to Bitcoin.16:09
SomeTI mean firstly it would be to see if its possible, then to see if people would buy into the idea, then hopefully branch off into some sort of alt coin16:11
SomeT(obviously in not a simplistic way)16:11
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tulipI don't see any use for classical stenography in Bitcoin really. trying to obscure transaction or block traffic by stuffing it into other unrelated streams of data might be interesting, but that's a p2p protocol layer rather than anything consensus related.16:13
SomeTum your points are interesting16:13
SomeTthink still I might start by reading up on stenography16:13
SomeTand see if I can notice anything and I may be back in that respect with a few more questions16:14
tulipas you wish.16:14
erasmospunkanybody would like a peer review a BIP I am drafting?16:14
tulipsure.16:14
SomeTI am not ignoring what has been said to me16:14
SomeTI am not going to invest time in something that is not amicable16:15
SomeTanyway thanks again16:15
SomeTcya16:15
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Jeremy_RandHello.  In a hypothetical coin where unspent outputs expire after some time of not being spent, what additional attack vectors get introduced if the outputs expire based on a fixed time difference in block timestamps, as opposed to a fixed difference in block height?16:16
Jeremy_Rand(I assume there are additional attack vectors?)16:16
erasmospunkJeremy_Rand: it would get complicated to combine inputs16:17
Jeremy_Randerasmospunk: can you elaborate on that?16:18
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erasmospunkJeremy_Rand: say that I have 2 UTXOs with one expiring in 1 day and the other in 7 days. When should the new output expire?16:20
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Jeremy_Randerasmospunk: let's say that the expiry time is a fixed duration (common to all UTXO's) after the UTXO is mined16:21
Jeremy_Rand(so if you want to keep your coins, you must spend them at least once per duration)16:22
erasmospunkJeremy_Rand: give me a couple of minutes to formulate a response16:24
Jeremy_Randerasmospunk: ok16:24
ajJeremy_Rand: i'd be worried about clumping -- bunch of outputs in one block all expire in the same future block, so might all get spent at the same time so they don't get lost16:25
Jeremy_RandI should probably disclose that I'm primarily interested in this question in the context of naming coins, where name outputs have to expire in some way.  (Although I'm also interested in responses about currency applications, because it interests me abstractly too.)16:27
Jeremy_Randas one example of an attack vector I'm curious about, is there a way that miners could steal coins or force them to expire by messing with the block timestamps, if expiry is based on block timestamp?16:27
ajJeremy_Rand: bip113 avoids miners messing with block timestamps a bit16:28
ajs/avoids/prevents/16:29
* Jeremy_Rand goes to lookup BIP113, as I don't remember what it does off the top of my head16:29
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erasmospunkJeremy_Rand: In that case instead of measuring the value of an output in satoshis, we apply the formula number of satoshis * 2^(1/number of blocks)16:31
erasmospunkthis value will degrade 10x16:33
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Jeremy_Randaj: ah, BIP 113 does indeed seem like an improvement in this respect.16:36
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Jeremy_Randaj: hypothetically, could BIP 113 be modified to use a much longer period?  Let's say, thousands of blocks instead of 11?  Would it have any bad effects if it were done?16:36
Jeremy_Rand(I guess another question is, would that have any beneficial effects either?)16:37
Jeremy_Rande.g. more time to detect misbehaving or malicious miners?16:38
Jeremy_Randerr, thinking about it, I guess that would make the exact time specified by the lock time, much less precise?16:39
erasmospunkJeremy_Rand: I think the mean previous time is pretty accurate of the reality16:40
bramcokay I've written my proof checking functions. An amusingly insidious and easy to write bug is to accept proofs of inclusion as proofs of exclusion.16:42
Jeremy_Randerasmospunk: ok.  So relying on the BIP 113 timestamps is believed to be acceptable security-wise for preventing undesired expiration/theft of coins?16:43
ajJeremy_Rand: median time of the last 10 blocks should usually be about 50 minutes ago; median time of the last 1000 blocks would be a week ago...16:46
ajJeremy_Rand: "acceptable" is a judgement call, it's an improvement though...16:47
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Jeremy_Randaj: right.  But I guess the last 1000 blocks would have substantially higher uncertainty, since it's more suceptible to hashrate changes?16:48
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Jeremy_Randaj: so, a number of Namecoin users are unhappy that they can't predict exactly when their 36000 block expiry time will hit.  It sounds like using the BIP 113 timestamps would be an improvement in terms of certainty.  Unless I'm misunderstanding something about threat model differences between the approaches.16:49
ajJeremy_Rand: the more blocks the more any manipulation should be averaged out16:50
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Jeremy_Randaj: yeah, it averages out, I guess, but aren't the latter half of the blocks going to be influenced by whether the mining hashrate of the network is increasing or decreasing over that time period?16:52
Jeremy_Randlike, if the network is accelerating its hashrate, then 500 blocks is over a shorter clock time span16:52
Jeremy_Randwhereas 5 blocks doesn't really matter as much given the same accelerating hashrate?16:53
ajJeremy_Rand: if you're using median time past, you're comparing actual time to block timestamps; block height doesn't matter16:54
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Jeremy_Randaj: but the difference between the median time past and the time that the current block was mined, will be fuzzier, no?  Or am I highly confused?16:56
ajJeremy_Rand: hmm, i'm not sure. you could do some statistics on past block times to work it out though16:58
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Jeremy_Randaj: hmm, yes, empiricism would probably resolve my confusion.  I'll run some statistics sometime when I have a chance.17:02
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but_seriouslyHey all.17:35
but_seriouslyI have an idea.17:35
but_seriouslyA theoretical idea.17:35
but_seriouslyIt has probably been thought of many times before...17:35
but_seriouslyAnyone?17:36
kang_go on17:36
but_seriouslyIt occured to me that people mine for crypto's, just hashing blocks until the find a block that produces a hash that starts with the target string.17:38
but_seriouslyI also see people wasting a lot of labour mining for "fictional" diamonds (etc) in minecraft.17:38
but_seriouslyWhat we need is a fun way of combining the two.17:38
but_seriouslyA minecraft that lets a player literally mine for blocks that produce an ore (or whatever) that can be converted to a crypto currency.17:39
smki think huntercoin addressed this concept a while back.. there are some others that have cropped up17:40
but_seriouslyEveryone plays on the same map, and just like with the blockchain, P2P tech determines who found the ore first.17:40
Jeremy_Randbut_seriously: yes, Huntercoin is basically exactly that17:40
but_seriouslyAnd provides a method for distributing modified chunks with a little delay as possible.17:41
but_seriouslyCool.... huntercoin. Thanks.17:41
kang_but_seriously: Also see BitQuest17:42
but_seriouslyYeah, it looks like huntercoin is asking people to buy "hunters" with bitcoin. That ain't what I'm talking about. I want a mining game that has no barrier to entry -- like conventional crypto's.17:43
but_seriouslyReplete with a difficulty.17:44
but_seriouslyI'll take a look at BitQuest.17:44
but_seriouslyThanks.17:44
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ajbut_seriously: if you do a game like that that's decentralised you won't be able to avoid people using bots to play it; if you centralise it, it's not really bitcoin-like17:47
ajbut_seriously: (IMO; feel free to prove me wrong)17:47
but_seriouslyYeah, BitQuest uses bitcoin micropayments as an in game currency, but does not allow you to mine anything that generates new bitcoins.17:47
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but_seriouslyI don't mind people using bots to play it, if they have to code the behaviour of the bots. A 3d world, like minecraft, is not trivially easy to survive in and difficult to code for. Add to that lava pools and the usual fare and you'r bots are gonna need some good coding.17:49
but_seriouslyAnd that's presuming there's now way round the problem you propose...17:50
but_seriouslyno*17:50
but_seriouslyIt would have to be decentralised though, and that poses it's own problems. Updating the changes other players are making to the map would be tricky to achieve in near real time. As you approach another player on the map you would have to create a secondary P2P link, outside the blockchain/ledger that allows for realtime updates.17:53
but_seriouslyComplicated, but there's bound to be a way.17:53
but_seriouslyObviously if changes are occurring elsewhere on the map, they can take there time to update. If a change has occurred thousands of voxels away and it would take your character 15 mins to travel there, then you don't need to receive those changes for 15 mins.17:55
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but_seriouslyActually, it's not to say that the mined ore and subsequent production of crypto's from it wouldn't be something, but just figuring out a way to decentralise minecraft would be the real money spinner.17:57
but_seriouslyMMMC17:57
but_seriouslyMassively Multiplayer MineCraft.17:57
but_seriouslyAnyway... work to do...17:58
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Guest19817239Hey everyone, I am taking a course on Bitcoin at uni and have to present on a project soon. Is there anyone who would be willing to discuss some things with me such that I can preempt questions that may be asked?19:10
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moaGuest19817239: I'll PM you19:16
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maakuSo I've become very interested in seeing if there is a mechanism for user voting on certain security parameters that can be made safe23:24
maakuIn particular I'm looking for a solution that is compatible with all the existing infrastructure out there23:25
maakuWhich really means there's not much to work with in terms of knobs to tweak .. if you assume that it is wallet authors not users that control e.g. tx.nVersion or nSequence23:25
maakuHas anyone looked at this problem?23:26
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