| --- Log opened Fri Dec 11 00:00:33 2015 | ||
| bramc | There is one clear benefit to a shardable architecture: It guarantees that a node with many cores will be able to scale up with the cores. That's worth something, especially in the future as the number of cores goes up. | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| bsm117532 | I'm not saying I have a ZKP proposal. But it seems possible. Sharding is necessary or we're doomed to 3tps. | 00:03 |
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| fluffypony | isn't that just what Lightning is? shard transactions by payment hub, settle back to the blockchain | 00:09 |
| bsm117532 | Maybe we can get it to 10 with segwit and braids, but sharding is very, very important. | 00:09 |
| bsm117532 | fluffypony: see the projections at Scaling by the lightning folks. Even with all their desired features, they're talking ~200M accounts. Not enough for the people and businesses of the world. | 00:10 |
| bsm117532 | (though, granted, a huge improvement and we should jump on it ASAP) | 00:10 |
| aj | bsm117532: it's only a factor of 50x off being that, though; 50MB blocks aren't unimaginable | 00:11 |
| * bsm117532 shivers at the 50mb orphan rates. | 00:13 | |
| fluffypony | "To some extent, these are pretty vague, but I would say if you do have 200 million people using the lightning network, it's probably the case that not half of the transactions are channel open and channel close transactions, it would probably be 80 to 90% of the blockchain transactions are LN related, in which case you could probably get to 800 million users." | 00:14 |
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| bsm117532 | Let's call that optimistic and pursue all available options. ;-) Also, I don't want to wait a week for my LN channel to close (which is a bitcoin problem, not a LN problem) | 00:15 |
| bsm117532 | LN opens a new attack channel in which one party forces the other to close their channel, locking up their funds. Locking up someone else's funds can be profitable in the right circumstances. | 00:16 |
| aj | bsm117532: hmm, my bad; 200M users per dryja was 32MB blocks, so 1.6GB for 10B users | 00:16 |
| bsm117532 | Yikes. | 00:17 |
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| fluffypony | at some point you've got to decide whether you want to kick the can down the proverbial road (which might be 10-20 years in the future before it becomes a problem) | 00:18 |
| fluffypony | or you want to solve all of the things now, in which case we might be here for 10-20 years before we have a solution :-P | 00:19 |
| bsm117532 | Let's put all available effort into all available options. ;-) | 00:19 |
| aj | bsm117532: ah, i get 228MB/block for 10B users, but I'm assuming 100% lightning txs, 100% of closes are reopens, and channels last 12 months not 6 months | 00:19 |
| aj | bsm117532: "sharding" by just having pegged sidechains is one easy solution for that, of course | 00:21 |
| * bsm117532 waits for a mined sidechain. | 00:21 | |
| bsm117532 | federated pegs are a centralized solution. | 00:22 |
| bsm117532 | So, not easy. | 00:22 |
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| bramc | sidechain pegging isn't meant as a scalability solution | 00:22 |
| fluffypony | they're not, but what if you sharded it by country - a sidechain + LN per country, cross-country payments are merely moving funds between sidechains | 00:23 |
| bsm117532 | bramc: It could be though, by localizing a pile of tx's somewhere else. | 00:23 |
| fluffypony | s/cross-/inter- | 00:24 |
| bramc | With relative timelock you can keep channels open essentially indefinitely. Right now we aren't even at the most basic transaction rate limit though. Tiny transaction fees are likely to get rid of a lot of garbage, and channels-based transactions enabled by a soft fork can get a bunch more orders of magnitude. That's plenty for now. Approaches which provide additional scaling are interesting and good to study but not thi | 00:25 |
| bramc | ngs to implement in the short term. | 00:25 |
| bsm117532 | bramc: I never said anything about short term. But if the perfect remains the enemy of the good for the long term, we'll end up competing in the marketplace among them. I'd rather that the community agree that better was better and absorb it, than force a marketplace decision. Anyway, not something anyone needs to worry about for a while. | 00:29 |
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| maaku | huh, reddit is blocked in indonesia | 04:26 |
| maaku | this could be a very productive place to be | 04:26 |
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| phantomcircuit | maaku, ha | 04:32 |
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| jonasschnelli | Had a wired thought. Could an attacker misuses transaction that are just above the mempool eviction fee limit for communication between nodes? Keep a tx in limbo? | 14:02 |
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| jonasschnelli | And could I evict a tx with RBF from the mempool? | 14:02 |
| phantomcircuit | jonasschnelli, huh? | 14:04 |
| instagibbs | not sure what first Q means, 2nd, sure. High enough feerate | 14:04 |
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| instagibbs | larger/higher feerate txn | 14:04 |
| adlai | jonasschnelli: if you're willing to suffer the risk of donating a low mining fee occasionally, yes, you can abuse tx relay for broadcast | 14:08 |
| jonasschnelli | Yes. A miner could mine the tx intentionally even if it's not economical. | 14:08 |
| jonasschnelli | But could I attack a mempool by endlessly RBF a transaction that will be very likely not mined? | 14:09 |
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| adlai | not endlessly, if you require that the replacement be more expensive than the original | 14:10 |
| morcos | jonasschnelli: both RBF and mempool eviction were designed to prevent this problem which we've been calling "free relay" | 14:11 |
| morcos | the idea is that every byte transmitted on the network should have always had at least minRelayFee per byte paid for it by some tx that got mined | 14:12 |
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| jonasschnelli | morcos: okay. But would it not be possible to use tx eviction as a way to "free relay" my inputs again? | 14:14 |
| morcos | thats what the mempool minfee is for | 14:16 |
| morcos | if your tx got evicted with fee rate X | 14:16 |
| morcos | then we know any new txs have to pay at least X + minrelayrate | 14:16 |
| morcos | so its at worse equivalent to you paying minrelayrate for your new tx (and X for the old one) | 14:17 |
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| phantomcircuit | jonasschnelli, you're required to increase the fee rate as well as the gross amount of fees paid by at least the dust limit | 14:18 |
| morcos | phantomcircuit: min relay not dust | 14:18 |
| jonasschnelli | Ah. So, the mempool keeps track of evicted tx and know later that my new to needs X+minrelayfee? | 14:18 |
| phantomcircuit | morcos, "some non zero amount" :) | 14:19 |
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| jonasschnelli | s/to/tx (sry phone typing) | 14:19 |
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| morcos | jonasschnelli: correct. it applies it to all new txs so it might not be your tx that pays for the evicted tx, but someone will, and you can' tkeep doing it b/c teh rate stays high | 14:20 |
| morcos | it exponentially decays down so there is actually some limited amount of free relay allowed, but its pretty small | 14:20 |
| jonasschnelli | Ah. I see. Thanks. All clear now. | 14:20 |
| morcos | i can't remember what we though reasonable, but on the order of block transmission rates, so 1MB per 10 mins. | 14:20 |
| morcos | the missing piece is that the min relay rate is still hard coded and may eventually become too small relative to tx fees to be effective | 14:21 |
| morcos | i was going to send an email to the mailing list explaining all that and how that needs to float in the future, but thats right when i got fed up with the mailing list | 14:21 |
| morcos | i should revisit it now | 14:22 |
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| dgenr8 | so, the txes that come after a flood have to pay for all the txes that were evicted by the flood. i don't see how that's going to stop the next flood. | 15:29 |
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| kanzure | zooko: do you know of any papers that explore impacts on fungibility of AML (anti-money laundering) regulation? most of this is obvious to us but i'm curious to see academic exploration of this. | 15:33 |
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| adlai | the arc/dike combination of minimum relay fees and minimum eviction costs (and capacity limits!) should keep the orc flood from drowning out the SNR | 15:34 |
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| zookolaptop | kanzure: nothing academic comes to mind. I thought some blogger that I trusted, maybe the Coin Center folks, | 16:11 |
| zookolaptop | wrote a post about this case: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qomqt/what_a_landmark_legal_case_from_mid1700s_scotland/ | 16:11 |
| zookolaptop | That reddit post doesn't look bad, but I just skimmed it. | 16:11 |
| kanzure | per-transaction aml costs do not seem to be written down anywhere | 16:11 |
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| zookolaptop | This was interesting, but not mostly about AML I think: https://coincenter.org/2015/10/what-last-weeks-european-vat-ruling-means-for-bitcoin-fungibility/ | 16:12 |
| kanzure | i mean at some point the per-transaction cost has to start eating into GDP or something or total transactions enacted heh | 16:12 |
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| AdrianG | aml costs for bitcoin? | 20:39 |
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| kanzure | yes but only to the extent that bitcoin also happens to be a currency. | 20:52 |
| kanzure | (and it's topical because privacy/fungibility fixes that problem) | 20:53 |
| moa | AML/KYC for an underlying currency must be a net drag on the economy, however afiak I haven't seen any economic studies along those lines | 20:54 |
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| adlai | drag? it's a fucking boon, bitcoin now has better risk-free interest than cotton or hemp could ever hope to get, and trust-minimized to boot | 20:55 |
| adlai | but i really do shill it too hard | 20:56 |
| oldbrew | going to be a wild ride | 20:56 |
| adlai | i hope you sell tickets. | 20:56 |
| oldbrew | http://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-central-bank-signals-intention-to-loosen-yuans-peg-to-dollar-1449843879 | 20:56 |
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| adlai | fwiw, the whole 'death certificate' bullshitting is indicative of terrible PR and the value of naming things non-pessimally | 21:04 |
| adlai | but (thankfully!) nobody gives to shits (yet?) whom i textecute | 21:05 |
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