| --- Log opened Sat Dec 12 00:00:35 2015 | ||
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| Taek | I have a potential solution to two mining attacks that I know of. Forgive me if someone else has already solved this problem, but I haven't seen anything of the sort yet | 00:05 |
|---|---|---|
| Taek | The first attack is the selfish mining attack. With 33+% of the hashrate, you can withhold a block after you find one and try to find a child for that block | 00:06 |
| Taek | The second attack is related, you leverage a superior network connection | 00:07 |
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| Taek | You withhold a block when you find one, and when another block appears on the network you race, so that you get to announce your block to 50+% of the nodes before the competing block | 00:07 |
| Taek | the first attack is theoretically pretty easy to execute, the second attack probably not as much - miners are trying to optimize their network connections as much as possible already | 00:08 |
| Taek | A solution to both is to treat competing blocks differently depending on how long its been since the most recent block was announced | 00:08 |
| Taek | For the purposes of explanation, I'll use 30 seconds as the cutoff, though that's probably not the optimal choice | 00:09 |
| Taek | If you see a block and for 30 seconds you don't see a sibling (a competing block sharing a parent), you assume that any sibling going forward is actually a part of a withholding attack | 00:10 |
| Taek | *selfish mining attack | 00:10 |
| Taek | And so you deliberately ignore all sibling blocks until they are at least 2 ahead of the current chain, instead of the typical behavior which is to ignore them until they are 1 ahead of your current chain | 00:10 |
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| Taek | this effectively stuffs the selfish mining attack, and is unlikely to affect honest miners because block propagation should be significantly faster than 30 seconds | 00:11 |
| Taek | Anyone honest should be mining on the new block well before the 30 second cutoff (adjust as necessary so it fits Bitcoin's current situation) | 00:11 |
| Taek | On the other hand, if you see a block and sibling before the 30 second cutoff, you assume a network attack | 00:12 |
| Taek | this may or may not be true | 00:12 |
| Taek | even in the honest case though, the 'late' sibling is only late because the other miner has a worse network connection | 00:12 |
| Taek | you don't want to favor miners with better network connections as this is a centralizing force | 00:12 |
| Taek | so, you pick between the blocks at random | 00:12 |
| tulip | ignoring a fork that's one block higher than you are doesn't sound like a fantastic idea. | 00:14 |
| adlai | more from the tangentially-relevant-idiocy-(esp 'this may or may not be true')-that-never-attained-liftoff-department: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=J1skFU0w | 00:14 |
| Taek | The one thing I'd be worried about here is that it could open up new attack vectors from blocks that have been made to intentionally propagate slowly. You end up with some miners on one side of the 30s cutoff and everyone else on the other side, might cause problems | 00:15 |
| Taek | tulip: you're only ignoring it if it seems to be part of an attack | 00:15 |
| adlai | it's not funded, nor finished, but a blueprint for making nonaltruistic mining even worse, if anybody else feels like funding beauty contests | 00:15 |
| Taek | It's unreasonable that you'd see a sibling block 30s late unless it actually was part of an attack (slow propagation aside) | 00:15 |
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| * adlai finds as he better grasps the mythical spherical-vacuum Prediction Market that there's likely not a single human willing to grease its friction-free ball bearings | 00:20 | |
| tulip | Taek: I'm not sure that's a good heuristic, but I've no data to prove so. | 00:23 |
| Taek | tulip: you can work it out mathematically, shouldn't be a need for data on this one | 00:23 |
| Taek | tulip: I did forget to mention that the strategy only works if there are enough miners using it | 00:23 |
| Taek | In the case of a 33.3% witholding attack, it should be sufficient that you are the only miner employing the strategy, because the balance is almost perfect. But if there is a cartel of like 40% of the hashing power, then you'll need at least 7% of the honest hashpower employing this strategy | 00:25 |
| Taek | In the case of mining a block at random if you see multiple before the 30 second mark... I could be convinced that it's a bad idea. | 00:25 |
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| tulip | adlai: you can just have fun with transactions which pay large amounts to miners if you want that sort of breakage. if I mine a block with 50 BTC of fees in it, it's in every miners interest to attempt to make it stale and take the fees for themselves. as a user, you can make a transaction locked for a certain depth (say, 50 blocks ago) which pays to an anyone can spend script the value of the cumulative block reward to that point, then publish | 00:27 |
| tulip | it. | 00:27 |
| * adlai wonders how much longer we'll see the "oops i accidentally put transaction value in the field that doesn't even exist in the network coding" gag | 00:28 | |
| tulip | huh? | 00:28 |
| adlai | tx fees... if a user can enter the desired tx value as fee in an authoring UI, you're either a criminal or a genius, probably both | 00:29 |
| adlai | sorry, 'luser' :-\ | 00:29 |
| tulip | I'm not sure what you mean, there is wallet software which allows that today. | 00:30 |
| adlai | yeah. file it under "how can we keep the Bitcoin Prediction Market (including Bitcoin) aligned with Bitcoin's survival", aka the https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/2015-12-02/?msg=55242852&page=3 heart attack | 00:35 |
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| adlai | pretending you need sidechain-level magicry to use bitcoin as a megaphone is inspirational, but naive | 00:36 |
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| * adlai goes off to start #bitcoin-plumbers | 00:36 | |
| adlai | every preimage colliding over a bunch of hashed contracts brings bitcoin closer to making ethics a prerequisite for CS101 | 00:39 |
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| -!- Topic for #bitcoin-wizards: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja | 02:09 | |
| -!- Topic set by sipa [~pw@unaffiliated/sipa1024] [Thu Oct 29 17:53:34 2015] | 02:09 | |
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| -!- Channel #bitcoin-wizards created Mon Feb 25 23:24:47 2013 | 02:09 | |
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| jl2012 | I created a wiki to collect interesting technical ideas and discussions in Bitcoin. Ask me for editing rights if you are interested: https://8333.info | 02:39 |
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| Luke-Jr | jl2012: eh, the Bitcoin Wiki already does that..? | 03:15 |
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| Taek | js2012: It would be nice to have a wiki that could accept pull requests from github. I know that such a thing exists | 04:25 |
| Taek | * jl2012^ | 04:26 |
| fluffypony | Taek: Github has a wiki, though? | 04:26 |
| fluffypony | oh wait I understand what you're saying | 04:26 |
| fluffypony | wiki-like but with git as the vc | 04:26 |
| Taek | yeah | 04:26 |
| fluffypony | s/vc/vcs | 04:26 |
| fluffypony | I guess bitcoin.org is managed that way | 04:27 |
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| Taek | https://github.com/gollum/gollum | 04:28 |
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| jl2012 | Luke-Jr: I think the nature is a bit different. Bitcoin Wiki is more like Wikipedia, where you expect to read full articles. The 8333.info is more like a collection of links to related issues, and may also collect some immature ideas (which you won't expect in the Bitcoin Wiki) | 05:03 |
| jl2012 | Taek: What's the benefit of the github model over the wikipedia model? | 05:04 |
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| Taek | jl2012: you get strong tools for parsing history, and an easy way to clone/decentralize the repo. In general, I think it's easier to use git when trying to make copies or backups than it is to use standard wiki tools | 05:05 |
| Taek | I also prefer looking at PRs and having discussions over github's issue tracker, though perhaps that is just because it's what is familar to me | 05:06 |
| fluffypony | I've always felt that git shows a train of thought / development a lot better than nearly everything else | 05:06 |
| tulip | fluffypony: you've obviously not read Satoshis wxBitcoin commits. | 05:07 |
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| Taek | tuplip: satoshi was far from perfect | 05:08 |
| Taek | *tulip ^ | 05:09 |
| * fluffypony hands Taek a tab button | 05:09 | |
| Taek | :O | 05:10 |
| Taek | fluffypony: thanks | 05:10 |
| jl2012 | Taek: My purpose is not to generate idea through discussion, but as a central point to collect idea from somewhere else. For well documented discussion, I personnally prefer a forum like bitcointalk. Regrettably the SNR of bitcointalk has become so bad | 05:10 |
| Taek | jl2012: people will inevitably disagree about what a page should look like. This will cause discussion | 05:11 |
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| jl2012 | Taek: No, I'm not doing an encycopedia. For example, there won't be a page to explain what "segregated witness". Instead, just links pointing to related discussion and articles, so people should hardly disagree with the content | 05:16 |
| Taek | Some topics have a lot of links that you could use, deciding which links belong and which don't could be a subject of controversy | 05:17 |
| Taek | fwiw, thus far my knosys repo has had no contention whatsoever | 05:17 |
| Taek | but... we have uesd the issue tracker to (rather unsuccessfully) to try and assign different pages to specific people | 05:18 |
| jl2012 | Taek: unless it is bluntly stupid I'd prefer to include it. And pointing out why a bad idea is bad is also useful, as we don't want to have the same bad idea again | 05:23 |
| jl2012 | It's not wikipedia, which only "correct" information or idea is expected | 05:25 |
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| Taek | jl2012: The other reason that gitian wikis are nice is that I can edit the pages from vim, something that is a bit more annoying to do in a standard wiki. | 05:37 |
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| jl2012 | Taek: I'm fine with any alternative solutions which is easy to setup | 05:58 |
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| Taek | tulip: I was wrong with my numbers earlier. if you are intentionally choosing not to mine on a block that appears to be the product of selfish mining, you need a full 50% of the hashrate also choosing to not mine on that block. | 07:43 |
| Taek | assuming the selfish miner is 34% hashrate, that means you need a full 75% of the honest hashrate to be following the same strategy | 07:44 |
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| Taek | I'm pretty sure you can get the numbers to work, invaliding a 33% selfish mining attack and bringing the requirment back up to 51%, but I'll want to run the analysis again when I'm not so tired. | 07:52 |
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| pistdov | wedge broken; and china is waking up; bull market is about to start; china will test going beyond $500usd per btc | 14:52 |
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| kanzure | off-topic, wrong channel. | 14:54 |
| andytoshi | pistdov: please use #bitcoin-pricetalk for that (and check which window you're in if you leave -wizards open :)) | 14:57 |
| pistdov | oh i already have my prophetic idea of what he majority of the blockchain | 14:57 |
| pistdov | will be used for after 2020, more into 2025 time frame | 14:57 |
| pistdov | that will disrupt not just finance | 14:57 |
| pistdov | but im keeping that idea private ;) | 14:57 |
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| syriven | I'm working on a virtual marketplace server for IoT. Not sure if this is the right place to talk about this, but I'd love to share the source if anyone is interested in this kind of project. | 16:17 |
| syriven | Basically, it's a server that processes marketplace-appropriate actions. Because the activity is off-chain, $0.01 of BTC pays for thousands or even millions of commands, depending on the exact nature of the usage | 16:18 |
| syriven | if Bitcoin is the money for the IoT, this project (which I'm calling netvend) aims to be the marketplace. | 16:18 |
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| kanzure | that sounds like a topic more appropriate for #bitcoin | 16:19 |
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| syriven | gotcha, thanks | 16:20 |
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| dgenr8 | Taek: I think your idea would work with a sufficiently conservative gap paremeter, and have proposed exactly the same thing for transactions. a <10% minority of mining can economically dis-incentivize anything it likes. if the "thing" is socially positive, others would likely jump on board. | 16:29 |
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| bramc | What's the url for the github of the proof of space implementation? | 17:42 |
| bramc | Found it: https://github.com/kwonalbert/spacemint | 17:46 |
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| jannes__ | bramc: is that actually a thing now, Proof of Space? Or is it still in the same category as PoStake? | 17:52 |
| Tiraspol | bramc thanks for bittorent i love u long time | 17:58 |
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| CautiousNarwhal | what is proof-of-space? how many proof-of's are there? | 18:09 |
| bramc | jannes__, Proofs of space are a 'real' thing in that there's a coherent goal which makes sense. It's very technical though and the practical question of its viability is very much an open question. It isn't like proof of stake where on top of a zillion technical issues even the goal isn't that compelling. | 18:10 |
| jannes__ | bramc: cool. thx. | 18:12 |
| bramc | CautiousNarwhal, Proof of space is a proof which requires memory/disk be allocated and proves those resources were taken up but requires only minimal time and power for the proof to be generated | 18:14 |
| bramc | CautiousNarwhal, All non-resource proofs are referred to as proof of stake. The resource based proofs are -work (meaning power) -space and -time | 18:15 |
| bramc | There are also proofs which combine multiple resources, they're generally still referred to as proofs of work | 18:16 |
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| kanzure | "To continue with my theme about the bias towards action, I would note the following. Suppose that one periodically samples a random variable to decide whether the correct action is to leave some situation alone, or to intervene. Assuming that one continues sampling after getting back "do nothing", but that an "intervene" decision is final, it should be clear that "intervene" will always win eventually, if the random variable has ... | 18:22 |
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| kanzure | ... even a tiny probability of coming up "intervene", even if the vast majority of the probability mass is on "do nothing". So in light of that, if one is going to continue to stand around and talk about intervening, one should probably bias further and further away from intervening as time passes, to account for the fact that eventually the coin will come up "intervene" through bad luck no matter what the correct decision is." | 18:22 |
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| bramc | kanzure, That is true, but what are you quoting from? | 18:38 |
| kanzure | gwillen | 18:38 |
| bramc | This is also a basic concept in UX, that if you want people to do something you should make it easy to do but not un-do and repeatedly remind them of the possibility of doing it. | 18:39 |
| gwillen | bramc: yes, it's a great dark pattern in forcing people to upgrade things against their will | 18:39 |
| bramc | This is also a big factor in why many people have children. | 18:39 |
| gwillen | it's a great dark pattern in a lot of things, honestly, which was sort of bubbling to the surface when I wrote that comment | 18:39 |
| gwillen | hah! I hadn't thought about that. | 18:39 |
| gwillen | Having children also shares (with the dark UX pattern) that it's easy to do by accident if you're not careful. | 18:40 |
| bramc | There are a lot of dark patterns involved in people having children. Including that whole sex being fun thing. It's there to trick you. | 18:40 |
| gwillen | Heh. | 18:40 |
| gwillen | kanzure: I'm glad you liked my comment enough to quote it, that makes me feel more like it was worth the time to write :-) | 18:41 |
| bramc | There was a big of dialogue on the Larry Sander show once: "This was an accident!" "So what you're saying is that you tripped and your penis slid into her vagina?" | 18:41 |
| kanzure | gwillen: really i'm just excited that the site is dying. | 18:42 |
| gwillen | hahahahaha. | 18:42 |
| sipa | what site? | 18:42 |
| gwillen | lesswrong.com | 18:42 |
| gwillen | that's where I left the comment that kanzure is quoting | 18:42 |
| kanzure | hopefully my friends will stop wasting time there and move on to more productive things | 18:42 |
| gwillen | hah | 18:42 |
| gwillen | I don't know that the second part follows from the first part | 18:43 |
| gwillen | they might just move to the slatestarcodex comment section instead; that's pretty much what I've done | 18:43 |
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| kanzure | yes but at least slatestarcodex doesn't mistake itself for something else | 18:43 |
| bramc | What's happening with lesswrong? Its front page doesn't say it's shutting down. | 18:44 |
| kanzure | bramc: slow death. | 18:44 |
| kanzure | theoretically the reason for the site was that they were going to create a number of people that were strong with reasoning and engineering ability and go forth and do good things in the world, but i am not convinced of the results. instead we got a bunch of hpmor fans and endless rationalization. anyway, this is starting to venture into off-topic... | 18:45 |
| gwillen | it's a bit offtopic, yeah | 18:46 |
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| CautiousNarwhal | you guys are all over the place | 19:01 |
| amiller | has anyone gotten el33th4x0r's message to bitcoin-dev to compile | 19:05 |
| amiller | i think it might be in remorse4ever | 19:05 |
| kanzure | i don't see anything in the moderation queue | 19:06 |
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| Taek | gmaxwell: at some point you gave a presentation exploring different types of signatures. There was ecdsa + ecdsa multisig, schnorr multisig, and then some type of polynomial signature? | 20:02 |
| Taek | I'm having trouble finding that presentation | 20:02 |
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| Taek | I seem to remember that schnorr, while having the best compression, don't have a way to tell you who signed a thing | 20:02 |
| Taek | but the other type of signature offered decent compression and also allowed you to learn who participated in signing | 20:03 |
| gmaxwell | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYQ-3VvNCHE the second part of this, ACEup | 20:04 |
| maaku | Taek: also, the key tree talk by sipa is a continuation of that work | 20:06 |
| Taek | thanks! | 20:07 |
| maaku | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcQLWeFmpYg | 20:07 |
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| kanzure | .title | 21:04 |
| yoleaux | SF Bitcoin Devs Seminar: Key Tree Signatures - YouTube | 21:04 |
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| pistdov | hello fellow wizards | 21:17 |
| pistdov | smigol, hand over the bitcoin ring to others in here, so they can communicate with lord sauron | 21:18 |
| sipa | ? | 21:21 |
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| jl2012 | If the scriptPubKey is OP_1, could it be spent with nothing in scriptSig? | 22:54 |
| tulip | jl2012: yes. | 22:57 |
| jl2012 | tulip: thanks | 22:59 |
| tulip | a blank scriptPubKey as well, is spendable by anyone. | 22:59 |
| jl2012 | ok. My focus is whether it is allowed to have a completely empty (not even a OP_0) scriptSig | 23:00 |
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| --- Log closed Sun Dec 13 00:00:35 2015 | ||
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