| --- Log opened Thu Dec 17 00:00:39 2015 | ||
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 00:08 | |
| -!- digitalmagus [~digitalma@unaffiliated/digitalmagus] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 00:18 | |
| -!- digitalmagus [~digitalma@unaffiliated/digitalmagus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:19 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:25 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:29 | |
| -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-140-204.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:33 | |
| -!- alan_ [~alan@139.162.193.206] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:35 | |
| -!- alan_ is now known as Alanius | 00:36 | |
| -!- Quent1 [~Quent@unaffiliated/quent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:39 | |
| -!- morcos [~morcos@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 00:40 | |
| -!- morcos [~morcos@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:42 | |
| -!- CubicEar_ [~cubiceart@ip-64-134-226-249.public.wayport.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:43 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@2600:1010:b021:ac64:2d82:f57:28ac:f2ac] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 00:43 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has quit [] | 00:53 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:54 | |
| -!- matsjj_ [~matsjj@162.216.46.121] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:56 | |
| -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nxouwirsecpbyayi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 00:58 | |
| -!- catcow [sid62269@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mbrxouxnplekcjlu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 00:58 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 00:59 | |
| -!- matsjj_ [~matsjj@162.216.46.121] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 01:01 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@82.139.199.212] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:01 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@82.139.199.212] has quit [Changing host] | 01:01 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:01 | |
| -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jhenoixpjsxjorkv] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 01:02 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@162.216.46.121] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:02 | |
| -!- gielbier [~giel____@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:03 | |
| -!- catcow [sid62269@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mdwwemhxdkwhlpnj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:03 | |
| -!- gielbier [~giel____@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has quit [Client Quit] | 01:04 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] | 01:05 | |
| -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oljalacndawyjtpm] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:05 | |
| -!- matsjj_ [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:06 | |
| -!- morcos [~morcos@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 01:08 | |
| -!- catcow [sid62269@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mdwwemhxdkwhlpnj] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 01:09 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@162.216.46.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 01:09 | |
| -!- morcos [~morcos@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:10 | |
| -!- jl2012 [uid133844@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qkixsylhlvfcmodc] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 01:10 | |
| -!- CubicEar_ [~cubiceart@ip-64-134-226-249.public.wayport.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 01:13 | |
| -!- jl2012 [uid133844@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vwipkbdblqiwixzn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:14 | |
| -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oljalacndawyjtpm] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 01:16 | |
| -!- jl2012 [uid133844@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vwipkbdblqiwixzn] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 01:18 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:20 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 01:31 | |
| -!- maaku [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:34 | |
| -!- maaku is now known as Guest83522 | 01:35 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:37 | |
| -!- catcow [sid62269@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ujcpczargbmitbdk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:37 | |
| -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-buawnjkupsiglbfd] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:41 | |
| -!- matsjj_ [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 01:42 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:42 | |
| -!- jl2012 [uid133844@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wfshyttuldebhkyr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:43 | |
| -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-otyxvcdpfuvxqkvq] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:45 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 01:47 | |
| -!- r0ach [~r0ach@107-217-214-192.lightspeed.jcvlfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] | 01:49 | |
| -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@178-157-152.dynamic.cyta.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 02:00 | |
| -!- roconnor [~roconnor@host-45-58-251-111.dyn.295.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 02:04 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:12 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)] | 02:27 | |
| -!- Yoghur114 [~Yoghurt11@131.224.198.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 02:36 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 02:39 | |
| -!- Yoghur114 [~Yoghurt11@131.224.198.111] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:39 | |
| -!- leakypat [~leakypat@KD106130163185.au-net.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:15 | |
| -!- leakypat [~leakypat@KD106130163185.au-net.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] | 03:18 | |
| -!- hdbuck [~hdbuck@ATuileries-153-1-60-53.w83-202.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:20 | |
| -!- hdbuck [~hdbuck@ATuileries-153-1-60-53.w83-202.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Changing host] | 03:20 | |
| -!- hdbuck [~hdbuck@unaffiliated/hdbuck] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:20 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 03:29 | |
| -!- hdbuck [~hdbuck@unaffiliated/hdbuck] has quit [Quit: hdbuck] | 03:31 | |
| -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-buawnjkupsiglbfd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 03:40 | |
| -!- catcow [sid62269@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ujcpczargbmitbdk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 03:43 | |
| -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nwczwaxdhhdovkas] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:44 | |
| -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nwczwaxdhhdovkas] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 03:48 | |
| -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-otyxvcdpfuvxqkvq] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 03:48 | |
| -!- jl2012 [uid133844@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wfshyttuldebhkyr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 03:53 | |
| -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lhouauupmvhftzhb] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:55 | |
| -!- catcow [sid62269@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gppbgbsdltkhtnod] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:55 | |
| -!- jl2012 [uid133844@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xjcxguwddypfttzb] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:58 | |
| -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:59 | |
| -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lhouauupmvhftzhb] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 04:06 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 04:09 | |
| -!- catcow [sid62269@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gppbgbsdltkhtnod] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 04:10 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:10 | |
| -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 04:11 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:12 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@535589FE.cm-6-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:12 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@535589FE.cm-6-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Changing host] | 04:12 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:12 | |
| -!- pozitron [~nu@89.248.172.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 04:13 | |
| -!- GAit [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:15 | |
| -!- MoALTz [~no@78-11-180-214.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 04:15 | |
| -!- jl2012 [uid133844@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xjcxguwddypfttzb] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 04:20 | |
| -!- catcow [sid62269@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sdslechtwfhnozqf] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:27 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE_ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:28 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 04:30 | |
| -!- jl2012 [uid133844@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ojfxxpmxcpcwwgfp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:31 | |
| -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qssnpkpljmfpbdny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:38 | |
| -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qsgmdsholiaiwqze] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:40 | |
| -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:43 | |
| -!- MoALTz [~no@78-11-180-214.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:48 | |
| -!- p15 [~p15@ip-19-214-104-93.static.contabo.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 05:00 | |
| -!- GAit [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 05:01 | |
| -!- atgreen_ [~green@CPE687f74122463-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 05:01 | |
| -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tuhjliktrlafuavx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:07 | |
| -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 05:09 | |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f11db5b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:10 | |
| -!- GAit [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:12 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 05:13 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:15 | |
| -!- catcow [sid62269@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sdslechtwfhnozqf] has quit [] | 05:16 | |
| -!- catcow [sid62269@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gsemhfmvpezgwqlt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:17 | |
| -!- catcow_ [sid62269@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eobgzbnxmmkkwpch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:19 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@216-15-125-203.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:20 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE_ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 05:23 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@216-15-125-203.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: GGuyZ] | 05:32 | |
| -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:53 | |
| -!- GAit [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 05:54 | |
| -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 06:03 | |
| -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 06:03 | |
| -!- Guest83522 is now known as maaku | 06:04 | |
| -!- GAit [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:05 | |
| -!- atgreen_ [~green@38.104.156.250] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:08 | |
| -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@104-178-201-106.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:09 | |
| -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@104-178-201-106.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] | 06:09 | |
| -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:09 | |
| -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:14 | |
| -!- zookolaptop [~user@2601:281:8001:26aa:9de2:3f5d:b8c5:d90c] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:18 | |
| -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Client Quit] | 06:18 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE_ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:30 | |
| -!- zookolaptop [~user@2601:281:8001:26aa:9de2:3f5d:b8c5:d90c] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 06:32 | |
| maaku | sipa / phantomcircuit : how does one efficiently prove that the merkle-sum-tree or backlink tree roots are random junk? | 06:33 |
|---|---|---|
| -!- seg [~seg@fsf/member/seg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 06:34 | |
| -!- seg [~seg@fsf/member/seg] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:35 | |
| aj | maaku: isn't that trying to prove a negative? (ie, you prove that they're not random junk, or you don't do anything?) | 06:40 |
| -!- bobke [~bobke@d51536036.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:48 | |
| -!- jcluck [~cluckj@pool-108-16-231-242.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:57 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@216-15-125-203.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:57 | |
| sipa | maaku: you can't | 06:58 |
| -!- catcow_ [sid62269@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eobgzbnxmmkkwpch] has quit [] | 06:59 | |
| -!- cluckj [~cluckj@pool-108-16-231-242.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 07:00 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE__ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:07 | |
| jl2012 | sipa: why do we need a commitment for witness hash at all? As long as one could produce a valid witness for a given tx, the actual content of the witness is irrelevant. If you need to calculate the block size or sigop etc, all you need is to commit these constraints. You don't even need to commit the actual number -- just the upper limit is enough. E.g., the | 07:07 |
| jl2012 | witness of input X of tx Y must not be larger than Z bytes, and Z will be used for the purpose of block size. | 07:07 |
| -!- roconnor [~roconnor@45.58.254.170] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:07 | |
| aj | sipa: okay, call me stupid for not being able to find it myself, but can you point me at where the 75% discounting for witness data happens? | 07:08 |
| -!- dEBRUYNE_ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 07:08 | |
| sipa | aj: not yet implememted | 07:08 |
| aj | sipa: aww man! | 07:08 |
| aj | sipa: so am i right in thinking the current code just has no (consensus) limits on witness data? | 07:09 |
| jl2012 | There is a benefit not to commit the witness hash. As witness is malleable, the witness in your mempool may not be same as mine. If you find a block, you need to send the witness to me. Without commitment, you don't need to | 07:09 |
| sipa | jl2012: in blocks? you need to be able to judge whether a relayer tampered with the block or the block itself was truly invalid | 07:10 |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:12 | |
| sipa | aj: correct | 07:12 |
| sipa | jl2012: IBLT solves that too | 07:13 |
| sipa | jl2012: ah, i see your point | 07:13 |
| aj | sipa: yay! +1 for me! | 07:14 |
| sipa | aj: good, someone actually reading the code :) | 07:14 |
| aj | sipa: closer to grepping than reading :( but better than nothing! | 07:16 |
| jl2012 | sipa: so does it really work without witness commitment? Or BIP62 standardness is enough? | 07:16 |
| Taek | please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that because the witness data is no longer a part of the txid, it does not matter that witnesses are malleable? | 07:18 |
| maaku | sipa: right it's a specific case of "i can't fetch the whole block!" | 07:18 |
| maaku | n/m | 07:18 |
| sipa | Taek: the block commits to the witness data | 07:18 |
| sipa | Taek: the txid does not. | 07:18 |
| Taek | right, which means the witness that ends up in the block might not be the exact witness that I broadcast to the txn network | 07:19 |
| sipa | jl2012: i don't understand | 07:19 |
| maaku | Taek: "it does not matter" is application specific | 07:19 |
| aj | sipa: so one other thing i wondered. obviously old nodes will consider a transaction with a segwit output non-standard and won't relay it; but afaics an old node will happily relay a transaction spending a segwit input to a non-segwit output (ie, empty scriptsig, P2PKH/P2SH scriptpubkey) as standard, but then won't be able to provide the witness. that seems suboptimal to me as far as safe soft-forking | 07:19 |
| aj | goes, and i wonder if requiring scriptSig = [OP_SEGWIT] might be better than scriptSig = [] ? | 07:19 |
| Taek | maaku: do you have an example of an application where witness malleability might pose a problem? | 07:20 |
| maaku | Taek: but it'd be a pretty contrived application that dependended on the exact serialized bits of the witness | 07:20 |
| Taek | :) | 07:20 |
| jl2012 | sipa: I mean, is applying BIP62 as standardness rules enough to solve the problem of witness malleability? | 07:20 |
| maaku | Taek: it's quite simple to make such an application, even one that *sounds* like a good idea to uninformed ears (e.g. a colored coin scheme that did a sort of pay-to-contract thing entirely within the witness) | 07:21 |
| aj | maaku: maybe miners should deliberately run peephole optimisations over witnesses so they can pack in as much witness data as possible? | 07:21 |
| maaku | Taek: but a proposal I would actually suggest or feel comfortable using? no can't think of one. (but it's late in this timezone, so maybe that's why) | 07:22 |
| Taek | maaku: fair, time may reveal innovations that make witness malleability annoying | 07:22 |
| maaku | jl2012: no BIP62 is insufficient | 07:22 |
| maaku | in particular there is nothing that can be done to prevent signer malleability | 07:23 |
| jl2012 | maaku: my concern is only in block relay | 07:23 |
| maaku | (it is a property of ECDSA that I can create multiple different signatures for the same message) | 07:23 |
| bramc | It turns out I was being a little too cute with completely skipping levels of the tree which don't have things on both sides. You need some kind of hashing at every bit to make proofs of non-inclusion simple. | 07:24 |
| maaku | jl2012: I don't understand the connection | 07:24 |
| aj | jl2012: the node that's relaying the block could have the private key for one of the transactions in the block, and malleate it while relaying if there's no commitment | 07:24 |
| maaku | witness needs to be committed to for certain fraud proofs if nothing else | 07:24 |
| aj | jl2012: (i've no idea if that would actually be bad) | 07:24 |
| jl2012 | maaku: consider an attacker keep mutating witness they see. Although we may have the same tx, the witness in my mempool may not be the same as yours. When you find a block, if witness is committed, you must send your version of witness to me. That could be annoying | 07:25 |
| maaku | jl2012: more annoying: the block doesn't commit to the witness, and now an SPV node has no way of verifying witness data as being correct | 07:26 |
| aj | jl2012: ah, maybe: without a commitment tree for witness data, it's hard to verify the data fits in the limits? | 07:27 |
| jl2012 | If you need to calculate the block size or sigop etc, all you need is to commit these constraints. You don't even need to commit the actual number -- just the upper limit is enough. E.g., the witness of input X of tx Y must not be larger than Z bytes, and Z will be used for the purpose of block size. | 07:28 |
| -!- capmao [3e394958@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.57.73.88] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:28 | |
| -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-139-55-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:28 | |
| -!- roconnor [~roconnor@45.58.254.170] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] | 07:29 | |
| -!- TrippySalmon [~rob@ip4da81ded.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:30 | |
| jl2012 | maaku: for SPV nodes, there could be 2 scenarios: 1. witness committed but no one send you the witness; 2. witness not committed and someone send you a wrong one, which does not match the tx . Are both attack effectively the same? | 07:31 |
| -!- dEBRUYNE__ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 07:31 | |
| jl2012 | In either case, the SPV node doesn't know if the tx is valid or not | 07:32 |
| -!- zookolaptop [~user@c-73-14-172-248.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:32 | |
| -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:34 | |
| jl2012 | ok, maybe you are right. without commitment, one could not *prove* a tx is invalid | 07:35 |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:39 | |
| -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 07:39 | |
| sipa | sorry, i dropped off | 07:51 |
| sipa | bip62 is indeed insufficient to prevent malleability | 07:51 |
| -!- libertalis__ [uid132877@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nkpsjvrxldnkbtwb] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 07:52 | |
| sipa | though with segwit + witness commitments, i guess all you can accomplish by malleating is making your transaction harder to relay by IBLT etc, as you introduce multiple versions on the network obly one of which gets picked | 07:53 |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:57 | |
| -!- GAit [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 08:00 | |
| nsh | .seen gmaxwell | 08:01 |
| yoleaux | I saw gmaxwell 14 Dec 2015 07:45Z in #bitcoin-wizards: <gmaxwell> yea, and 10 layers is a lot, if you're assuming 16 layers of "common data" | 08:01 |
| -!- benjyz1 [~benjyz1@f054148067.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:03 | |
| -!- TrippySalmon [~rob@ip4da81ded.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] | 08:04 | |
| -!- capmao [3e394958@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.57.73.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 08:16 | |
| -!- gocrazy [~gocrazey@69.7.121.63] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:21 | |
| Taek | I'm looking for an example of rationally-motivated breaks of protocols in decenralized systems | 08:21 |
| Taek | A real world example of a stake-grinding attack on a POS coin would be helpful, but I'm having trouble finding one | 08:21 |
| -!- dEBRUYNE__ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:21 | |
| zookolaptop | Taek: :-) | 08:22 |
| fluffypony | Taek: I think most of them are too disinteresting to attackers motivated enough to do so | 08:25 |
| Taek | fluflypony: I thought that peercoin was subject to one at some point? Maybe I am remembering incorrectly | 08:25 |
| fluffypony | plus why bother with stake grinding when you can just use an exploit Bitcoin fixed that the coin hasn't | 08:26 |
| fluffypony | Taek: ^^ that's what happened to Peercoin | 08:26 |
| jgarzik | Peercoin has had to lock in several checkpoints due to attacks | 08:26 |
| fluffypony | yeah, Peercoin has centralised consensus :-P | 08:27 |
| Taek | jgarzik: do you have any links discussing the attacks? | 08:27 |
| Taek | that's exactly the type of thing I'm looking for, even if it's not specifically stake grinding | 08:27 |
| jl2012 | the POS coin? | 08:27 |
| jl2012 | I can't remember details of any altcoin except Litecoin | 08:28 |
| pigeons | peercoin clients, at least at one time, trusted a hard-coded key to sign blocks that would checkpoint which chain the developer controlling the key determined were official | 08:31 |
| -!- sparetire_ [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:35 | |
| -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@178.59.157.152] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:41 | |
| -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:42 | |
| -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Client Quit] | 08:44 | |
| -!- benjyz1 [~benjyz1@f054148067.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] | 09:01 | |
| -!- hazboluah [~hazbolu@2001:1900:2104:2::86] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 09:02 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@ip-64-134-226-175.public.wayport.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:04 | |
| -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:04 | |
| -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:06 | |
| -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 09:08 | |
| -!- Quent1 [~Quent@unaffiliated/quent] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 09:09 | |
| -!- Quent [~Quent@unaffiliated/quent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:10 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] | 09:10 | |
| -!- bendavenport [~bpd@96.90.231.161] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:27 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:27 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 09:28 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] | 09:31 | |
| -!- cluckj [~cluckj@pool-108-16-231-242.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:41 | |
| -!- jcluck [~cluckj@pool-108-16-231-242.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 09:43 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79-98-72-216.sys-data.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:43 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79-98-72-216.sys-data.com] has quit [Changing host] | 09:43 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:43 | |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-103-113.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:45 | |
| -!- memymo [~textual@184-23-239-227.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:47 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:00 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:05 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@ip-64-134-226-175.public.wayport.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 10:08 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@ip-64-134-226-175.public.wayport.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:08 | |
| -!- brg444 [18257df2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.37.125.242] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:14 | |
| -!- teknic111 [~teknic@ool-44c0697a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] | 10:14 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] | 10:19 | |
| -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@104.232.116.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 10:21 | |
| -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tuhjliktrlafuavx] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 10:26 | |
| -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:31 | |
| -!- Yoghur114_2 [~jorn@g227014.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:31 | |
| -!- jl2012 [uid133844@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ojfxxpmxcpcwwgfp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 10:32 | |
| -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] | 10:32 | |
| -!- tachys [~alex@96.90.231.161] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:32 | |
| -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:33 | |
| -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qsgmdsholiaiwqze] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 10:33 | |
| -!- jl2012 [uid133844@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kxyuqzabzbwekxek] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:33 | |
| -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wmsnoewqqgxkfodj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:34 | |
| -!- vmatekol_ [~vmatekole@p5480ACD5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:35 | |
| -!- GGuyZ_ [~GGuyZ@216-15-125-203.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:46 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@216-15-125-203.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 10:46 | |
| -!- GGuyZ_ is now known as GGuyZ | 10:46 | |
| -!- jron [~okok@unaffiliated/jron] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:47 | |
| -!- GGuyZ_ [~GGuyZ@216-15-125-203.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:48 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@216-15-125-203.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 10:48 | |
| -!- GGuyZ_ is now known as GGuyZ | 10:48 | |
| -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Quit: Quit] | 10:48 | |
| -!- SgtStroopwafel [~Chuck@s5597aba6.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 10:50 | |
| -!- gobiasindustries [60268e75@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.38.142.117] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:52 | |
| -!- SgtStroopwafel [~Chuck@s5597aba6.adsl.online.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:53 | |
| -!- matsjj_ [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:57 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 10:57 | |
| -!- matsjj_ [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 10:58 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:58 | |
| -!- MrHodl [~fuc@91.210.105.101] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:59 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 11:00 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:01 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has quit [Client Quit] | 11:02 | |
| -!- Erik_dc [~erik@d54C620ED.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:03 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:03 | |
| -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 11:04 | |
| -!- matsjj_ [~matsjj@162.216.46.25] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:06 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 11:07 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE__ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 11:20 | |
| -!- digitalmagus [~digitalma@unaffiliated/digitalmagus] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 11:20 | |
| -!- digitalmagus [~digitalma@unaffiliated/digitalmagus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:20 | |
| adlai | Taek: what about multipool-mediated deaths? miners aren't strictly breaking the protocol, but they are acting to maximize a profit metric outside the system, and it results in the system becoming unusable | 11:27 |
| -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:31 | |
| Taek | adlai: I'm not sure exactly what you are refering to by 'multipool-mediated deaths' | 11:31 |
| -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] | 11:33 | |
| -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:33 | |
| -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wpvlcyzfebywjmmj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:35 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:38 | |
| -!- MoALTz [~no@78-11-180-214.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 11:40 | |
| -!- vmatekol_ [~vmatekole@p5480ACD5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 11:42 | |
| -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 11:42 | |
| -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:48 | |
| bsm1175321 | I had a fun idea in the shower and noodled about it. http://blog.sldx.com/proof-of-location/ | 11:49 |
| bsm1175321 | Ok back to real work... | 11:50 |
| -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:57 | |
| -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:57 | |
| -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Client Quit] | 11:57 | |
| -!- TBI [~TBI@84.48.195.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:57 | |
| -!- dave4925 [dave4925@unaffiliated/dave4925] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 11:59 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE__ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:00 | |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-103-113.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 12:03 | |
| -!- TBI [~TBI@84.48.195.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 12:05 | |
| -!- c0rw|zZz is now known as c0rw1n | 12:12 | |
| -!- mrkent_ [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:13 | |
| -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 12:14 | |
| bramc | The nice thing about forcing a hash at every level of the tree even when there's nothing on one of the sides is that it almost completely eliminates all games which you can play with malformed trees | 12:18 |
| zookolaptop | It certainly does if you mix in the level or the node number or something into the input of the hash. | 12:19 |
| zookolaptop | Gotta run. | 12:20 |
| -!- zookolaptop [~user@c-73-14-172-248.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 12:24 | |
| bramc | That information is redundant when the path to the root is forced. All you need is a clear distinction between terminal and intermediary nodes | 12:24 |
| -!- dEBRUYNE__ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 12:26 | |
| Taek | bramc: are you familiar with the structure of the Merkle trees in RFC 6962? I think it does a pretty good job of eliminating abuse patterns | 12:28 |
| Taek | one thing that gets enforced is that leaf nodes have a '0' prepended to the hash, and branch nodes have a '1' prepended to the hash | 12:28 |
| -!- MoALTz [~no@78-11-180-214.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:30 | |
| bramc | Taek, I'm using a patricia trie to make diffs between successive generations small | 12:30 |
| bramc | But yes, I'm using a single byte prepended which specifies which of the two sides are included and whether they're terminal | 12:32 |
| bramc | It being patricia is what creates this funny case where sometimes one of the two sides has nothing in it | 12:32 |
| -!- dEBRUYNE__ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:34 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:35 | |
| -!- foolio [~Sleepnbum@64.129.1.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 12:43 | |
| -!- el33th4x0r [8054a73f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.128.84.167.63] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:45 | |
| -!- el33th4x0r [8054a73f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.128.84.167.63] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] | 12:56 | |
| -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:56 | |
| -!- el33th4x0r [80547c38@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.128.84.124.56] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:56 | |
| -!- Cory [~C@unaffiliated/cory] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 12:59 | |
| -!- gobiasindustries [60268e75@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.38.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 13:00 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE__ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 13:01 | |
| -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 13:01 | |
| -!- Cory [~C@unaffiliated/cory] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:06 | |
| bramc | As part of redesigning my format *again*, right now every node is stored using a type byte and two (or in some cases one) hashes. The type byte can be either pass0, meaning there's nothing in the 1 position, pass1 which is similar, term0 meaning the thing in the 0 position is terminal and the other is a branch, term 1 meaning the other way, termboth meaning both, and single which is a value only valid at the root of a tr | 13:06 |
| bramc | ee containing exactly one item | 13:06 |
| bramc | When a side is terminal it's hashed once before being hashed into the node. The node is a hash of the type byte concatenated with the two child hashes or one if there's only one. | 13:09 |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 13:10 | |
| bramc | Keeping the metadata in the type byte makes implementation a lot less ugly. It's possible to indicate some metadata by special values in implementation, but yech, and since one byte is way more than enough there's no need to be stingy on what's included. | 13:10 |
| -!- justice_ [~textual@HSI-KBW-46-223-37-131.hsi.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:12 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:306:b8e0:8160:5190:eb16:9552:39a3] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 13:16 | |
| bramc | Actually I'm still using some special values, there's EMPTY and INVALIDATED for hashes, and a special value for a child block being a branch rather than a leaf in the position indicator. Those seem more logical there. | 13:19 |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f11db5b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 13:26 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE__ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:29 | |
| -!- el33th4x0r [80547c38@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.128.84.124.56] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] | 13:32 | |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-103-113.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:37 | |
| -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:48 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@ip-64-134-226-175.public.wayport.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 13:57 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@ip-64-134-226-175.public.wayport.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:57 | |
| -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wpvlcyzfebywjmmj] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 14:06 | |
| -!- mountaingoat [~mountaing@unaffiliated/mountaingoat] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 14:10 | |
| -!- risho [~quassel@c-73-252-176-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:17 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE__ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 14:17 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 14:18 | |
| -!- memymo [~textual@184-23-239-227.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 14:18 | |
| -!- atgreen_ [~green@38.104.156.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 14:20 | |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-103-113.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 14:21 | |
| bramc | There's a logical order to writing these functions. First you write the confirmation of inclusion/exclusion proof free-standing functions, then the get_root() method, then the is_included method, then I'm not sure because I haven't gotten up to it yet, I keep having to start over. | 14:29 |
| -!- MrHodl [~fuc@91.210.105.101] has quit [] | 14:31 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@216-15-125-203.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 14:31 | |
| adlai | Taek: multipools are pools which track exchange rates for garbage altcoins and send miners the most profitable work at any given moment. it's actually a complicated task, they have to divide up work between the coins carefully so as not to instantly murder each coin they mine | 14:31 |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@216-15-125-203.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:33 | |
| adlai | "One conclusion that stands out is that we are responsible for a significant proportion of many networks' hashrate, but we only exceed 50% for 20 of the 165 coins we mine." http://forums.prohashing.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=659 | 14:34 |
| -!- zookolaptop [~user@2601:281:8001:26aa:9de2:3f5d:b8c5:d90c] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:37 | |
| -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 14:39 | |
| -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:39 | |
| bramc | adlai, Now only able to defraud 12% of altcoins with impunity! | 14:40 |
| -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wmsnoewqqgxkfodj] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 14:41 | |
| -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ogsomxloevjzockx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:43 | |
| MRL-Relay | [shen] I haven't heard of any of those on that list besides litecoin, -one is named "Ripoffcoin" how can these be real | 14:43 |
| adlai | there's something almost admirable about defrauding ipsos fraudsteros | 14:43 |
| -!- foolio [~Sleepnbum@64.129.1.5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:46 | |
| bramc | They're sticking with scrypt-based altcoins, which is a good business move on their part, but it makes me sad that so few people making altcoins understand the difference between a proof of work scheme and a password hashing scheme | 14:46 |
| bramc | adlai, I doubt those miners are actually defrauding anybody. They're mostly contributing to the stability and legitimacy of those pump and dumps. | 14:47 |
| bsm1175321 | bramc: That's about the only "innovation" in the entire space, mucking around with the PoW function. It's really irrelevant. :-/ | 14:47 |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:48 | |
| adlai | well, they distort the "altcoin developer"'s coin distribution plans, if any of them plan things out that far | 14:48 |
| bramc | I think most of the pump and dumps these days are cow systems, to avoid that pesky distributed security problem. | 14:49 |
| bramc | bsm1175321, My innovation in proofs of work to make them memory hard: Instead of using X as your proof of work, it's X plus three more bytes, call them q, and the work value is p(X)^p(X^q) | 14:52 |
| -!- Dizzle_ [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:52 | |
| bramc | How well this would make COTS compete with custom hardware is unclear, but at least it's an interesting idea, and merely doubles verification time instead of making it glacial. | 14:55 |
| -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 14:56 | |
| bramc | Cuckoo is an even more interesting idea, but harder to explain and results in much larger proofs | 14:57 |
| -!- Yoghur114_2 [~jorn@g227014.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 14:58 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@ip-64-134-226-175.public.wayport.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 14:59 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 15:00 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@ip-64-134-226-175.public.wayport.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:00 | |
| -!- rasengan [~rasengan@pdpc/corporate-sponsor/privateinternetaccess.com/rasengan] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:00 | |
| -!- rasengan [~rasengan@pdpc/corporate-sponsor/privateinternetaccess.com/rasengan] has quit [Client Quit] | 15:01 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)] | 15:14 | |
| -!- Erik_dc [~erik@d54C620ED.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 15:14 | |
| -!- rhadamanthus [~rhadamant@unaffiliated/rhadamanthus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:18 | |
| adlai | bramc: what's COTS? | 15:23 |
| bramc | adlai, Common Off The Shelf | 15:23 |
| bramc | generally refers to hardware | 15:23 |
| * adlai nods | 15:24 | |
| -!- SgtStroopwafel [~Chuck@s5597aba6.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 15:28 | |
| -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:32 | |
| -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Client Quit] | 15:32 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 15:32 | |
| -!- c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|zZz | 15:36 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] | 15:41 | |
| -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:49 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:53 | |
| -!- pozitrono [~nu@109.201.143.40] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:59 | |
| -!- Luke-Jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Excess Flood] | 16:01 | |
| -!- Luke-Jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:02 | |
| -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 16:04 | |
| -!- archobserver [~archobser@unaffiliated/superobserver] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 16:06 | |
| -!- pozitron [~nu@109.201.143.40] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:08 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@ip-64-134-226-175.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 16:09 | |
| -!- pozitrono [~nu@109.201.143.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 16:10 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE_ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:12 | |
| -!- ebfull [~sean@73.34.119.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 16:15 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 16:15 | |
| -!- ebfull [~sean@73.34.119.0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:15 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE_ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Client Quit] | 16:17 | |
| -!- Dizzle_ [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 16:21 | |
| -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:25 | |
| -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:27 | |
| -!- eragmus [~eragmus@c-73-150-48-166.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:28 | |
| -!- eragmus [~eragmus@c-73-150-48-166.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] | 16:28 | |
| -!- mrkent_ [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 16:28 | |
| -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:31 | |
| -!- rhadamanthus [~rhadamant@unaffiliated/rhadamanthus] has quit [Quit: rhadamanthus] | 16:31 | |
| -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 16:31 | |
| -!- mrkent_ [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:34 | |
| -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 16:35 | |
| -!- matsjj_ [~matsjj@162.216.46.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 16:37 | |
| -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-clwmmdxxgbzwdqki] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:44 | |
| -!- desantis [~desantis@c-68-47-180-250.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:44 | |
| -!- desantis [~desantis@c-68-47-180-250.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] | 16:47 | |
| -!- koshii [~w@c-68-58-151-30.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 16:47 | |
| -!- desantis [~desantis@c-68-47-180-250.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:47 | |
| -!- koshii [~w@c-68-58-151-30.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:49 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:51 | |
| -!- ooj__ [5613ba41@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.19.186.65] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:53 | |
| -!- ooj__ [5613ba41@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.19.186.65] has quit [Client Quit] | 16:53 | |
| -!- archobserver [~archobser@unaffiliated/superobserver] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:56 | |
| -!- desantis [~desantis@c-68-47-180-250.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: desantis] | 16:56 | |
| -!- atgreen_ [~green@CPE687f74122463-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:59 | |
| -!- brg444 [18257df2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.37.125.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 17:07 | |
| -!- dasource [uid48409@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mxosnqziwegmozpm] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 17:10 | |
| -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 17:15 | |
| -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:15 | |
| -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 17:17 | |
| -!- droark [~droark@c-24-22-36-12.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Later.] | 17:29 | |
| -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:32 | |
| -!- mhanne [~mhanne@static.221.89.251.148.clients.your-server.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:34 | |
| -!- mrkent_ [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 17:35 | |
| -!- btcdrak [uid115429@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jajjzayancerouka] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 17:36 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@141.8.72.43] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 17:52 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:53 | |
| -!- tachys [~alex@96.90.231.161] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 18:06 | |
| -!- bendavenport [~bpd@96.90.231.161] has quit [Quit: bendavenport] | 18:11 | |
| -!- foolio [~Sleepnbum@64.129.1.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 18:13 | |
| -!- foolio [~Sleepnbum@64.129.1.5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:14 | |
| -!- Quent [~Quent@unaffiliated/quent] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 18:15 | |
| -!- foolio [~Sleepnbum@64.129.1.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 18:19 | |
| -!- droark [~droark@c-24-22-36-12.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:24 | |
| -!- mrkent_ [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:25 | |
| -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 18:26 | |
| -!- digitalmagus [~digitalma@unaffiliated/digitalmagus] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 18:27 | |
| -!- foolio [~Sleepnbum@64.129.1.5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:27 | |
| -!- digitalmagus [~digitalma@unaffiliated/digitalmagus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:27 | |
| -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:28 | |
| -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Client Quit] | 18:31 | |
| -!- foolio [~Sleepnbum@64.129.1.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 18:34 | |
| -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:39 | |
| -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:40 | |
| -!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 18:42 | |
| -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ogsomxloevjzockx] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 18:44 | |
| -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 18:44 | |
| -!- tachys [~alex@173-228-124-247.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:59 | |
| -!- tachys [~alex@173-228-124-247.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 19:03 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:15 | |
| -!- chmod755 [~chmod755@unaffiliated/chmod755] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:38 | |
| -!- p15 [~p15@ip-21-214-104-93.static.contabo.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:42 | |
| -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-140-204.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 19:46 | |
| -!- desantis [~desantis@c-68-47-180-250.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:57 | |
| -!- desantis [~desantis@c-68-47-180-250.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] | 19:58 | |
| -!- rgrant [~user@104.156.240.206] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:00 | |
| rgrant | kanzure: (and others) have you heard of any proposals based on constant orphan risk? | 20:05 |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50.1.104.103] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:13 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:20 | |
| -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:22 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@216-15-125-203.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: GGuyZ] | 20:23 | |
| kanzure | rgrant: no way to enforce that due to bandwidth asymmetries | 20:24 |
| kanzure | unmeasurable bandwidth asymmetries, too. and no global synchronous clock. | 20:24 |
| kanzure | well, i mean, no timely global synchronous clock. | 20:24 |
| kanzure | my reason is wrong but the sentiment is correct | 20:25 |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50.1.104.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 20:35 | |
| -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 20:36 | |
| rgrant | kanzure: since orphans are not cheap, they should make a good metric, and the question is whether they're meaningful. if miners a few hops away are penalized by larger blocks, then they should be able to prove their discontent by registering orphans somewhere. if the block dynamics are adjusted every two weeks, then cose timing shouldn't matter. | 20:36 |
| rgrant | *cose -> close (or accurate) | 20:37 |
| rgrant | miners may decide to join a larger pool rather than bother registering orphans somewhere, in which case the orphan rate may go down, but that is also the case where the miners have decided for themselves to centralize. this is the idea's flaw: it doesn't incentivize miners not to centralize; it only helps those who don't centralize. | 20:39 |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:40 | |
| -!- mrkent_ [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit [] | 20:43 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 20:57 | |
| -!- mountaingoat [~mountaing@unaffiliated/mountaingoat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:58 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:58 | |
| -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:00 | |
| -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 21:02 | |
| -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:04 | |
| -!- tachys [~alex@c-50-131-227-138.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:05 | |
| -!- tachys [~alex@c-50-131-227-138.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 21:07 | |
| -!- tachys_ [~alex@c-50-131-227-138.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:07 | |
| -!- tachys_ [~alex@c-50-131-227-138.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 21:10 | |
| -!- zookolaptop [~user@2601:281:8001:26aa:9de2:3f5d:b8c5:d90c] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 21:12 | |
| -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 21:13 | |
| -!- go1111111 [go1111111@174-20-190-87.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:27 | |
| -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 21:31 | |
| Taek | adlai: that's excellent, thanks | 21:33 |
| -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-139-55-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 21:34 | |
| -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 21:37 | |
| -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:47 | |
| -!- el33th4x0r [68e5aa14@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.104.229.170.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:47 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 21:48 | |
| -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] | 21:49 | |
| -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:49 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 21:54 | |
| kanzure | "register their orphans some where"- what? or, what place would that be? and what meaning would it have | 22:00 |
| -!- btcdrak [uid115429@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gutzygalpypzlzmu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:04 | |
| -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 22:08 | |
| aj | kanzure: it would be at the orphanage, obvs! | 22:10 |
| -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:10 | |
| el33th4x0r | you know, those blocks are technically not orphans. they have parents. | 22:11 |
| Luke-Jr | I think he meant stale blocks | 22:11 |
| el33th4x0r | that's a much better term! | 22:12 |
| -!- andytoshi [~andytoshi@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 22:12 | |
| -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:13 | |
| sipa | aj: gah, you too... i specifically addresses the problem jtoomim brought up in my mail, under section 2... it seems nobody reads further than section 1 to which it does not apply | 22:15 |
| -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 22:17 | |
| aj | sipa: i think it's already solved without needing to mark "incoming transactions as "uncertain history"", since the incoming transactions will be invalid under the new rules and non-standard under the old rules? | 22:18 |
| aj | sipa: ie, i think i'm making a stronger claim of soft-fork safety than you did? | 22:19 |
| bramc | Is there a term in Japan for an old person who has no children or relatives to take care of them? | 22:21 |
| el33th4x0r | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubasute | 22:24 |
| sipa | aj: fair enough... it's not a very useful argument in the first place; it's discussing why a discouraged and ckearly unsafe practice is not made less secure by softforks :) | 22:25 |
| aj | sipa: "clearly unsafe practice" -- accepting unconfirmed mempool transactions? yeah... but people seem to care about it anyway | 22:28 |
| -!- gocrazy [~gocrazey@69.7.121.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 22:29 | |
| aj | sipa: i really don't get how people think hard forking is any better. "with a hard fork, everyone just upgrades" "but if everyone just upgrades, a soft fork is fine too" >_< | 22:29 |
| aj | el33th4x0r: ouch | 22:30 |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 22:36 | |
| -!- andytoshi [~andytoshi@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:39 | |
| -!- tachys [~alex@c-50-131-227-138.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:40 | |
| -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 22:43 | |
| -!- tachys [~alex@c-50-131-227-138.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 22:45 | |
| -!- melvster1 [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:45 | |
| -!- digitalmagus [~digitalma@unaffiliated/digitalmagus] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 22:54 | |
| -!- digitalmagus [~digitalma@unaffiliated/digitalmagus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:55 | |
| -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wxbpttujmivnybmt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:58 | |
| -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:05 | |
| rgrant | was using this definition: https://blockchain.info/orphaned-blocks Valid blocks which are no longer part of the longest chain are also commonly called stale blocks. | 23:06 |
| -!- tripleslash_y [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:08 | |
| -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 23:10 | |
| bramc | I think 'abandoned block' is the most accurate description. Not very poetic though. | 23:13 |
| sipa | http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/5859/what-are-orphaned-and-stale-blocks/5869#5869 | 23:14 |
| bramc | With the recent quick acceptances of soft forks, I would hope that opt-in replace by few can get accepted quickly as well. But opt-in rbf isn't even a soft fork. It's... a convention? | 23:15 |
| sipa | yes | 23:16 |
| sipa | better: a convention that doesn't impact you if you don't opt into it... | 23:16 |
| rgrant | to register an orphaned/stale/abandoned block, create an OP_RETURN with its hash, as soon as possible. Maybe keep the whole block, if necessary for additional verification. When computing the next difficulty, also compute whether the blocksize is creating a disadvantage for miners without the best connectivity, by adding up the orphaned/stale/abandoned blocks and normalizing for the observed hash | 23:17 |
| rgrant | rate. If there are too many orphans, reduce the blocksize. That's the idea. | 23:17 |
| -!- p15 [~p15@ip-21-214-104-93.static.contabo.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 23:19 | |
| el33th4x0r | keeping track of all orphans would be great for detecting selfish mining (SM), by the way. at the moment, they are pruned inside the network, so it's hard to build a reliable SM detector. | 23:22 |
| -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 23:23 | |
| -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:23 | |
| -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-clwmmdxxgbzwdqki] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 23:26 | |
| -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 23:27 | |
| -!- sparetire_ [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has quit [Quit: sparetire_] | 23:30 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@141.8.72.43] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:35 | |
| -!- p15 [~p15@124.64.103.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:41 | |
| -!- c-cex-yuriy [uid76808@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zxnnvdzuqltqiftw] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 23:41 | |
| -!- p15 [~p15@124.64.103.78] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] | 23:49 | |
| -!- p15 [~p15@ip-21-214-104-93.static.contabo.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:49 | |
| -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:55 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:56 | |
| bramc | sipa, So should miners vote on opt-in rbf or... should people just start doing it? | 23:57 |
| --- Log closed Fri Dec 18 00:00:40 2015 | ||
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!