2015-12-19.log

--- Log opened Sat Dec 19 00:00:41 2015
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smellymoo_you guys are going to love this! I have just got the first public draft of my whitepaper to make a dynamic (web2.0) peer-to-peer world-wide-web :D00:07
smellymoo_https://github.com/smellymoo/Interpeer/blob/master/whitepaper.md00:07
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AaronvanWre: input back-links04:55
AaronvanWI thought SPV nodes already did (something like) this. So I'm either not understanding the concept or I'm not understanding how SPV nodes currently work. Maybe ping me if you see this message?04:55
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pistdovThis is wat satoshi envisioned for bitcoin, this picture represents "balance" and the notion of "by the people and for the people": https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BrxyUeUCUAASNcy.jpg11:42
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kanzurethat's off-topic.11:51
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pistdovwikileaks just released a new dump; sha256, and ecdsa were cracked yesterday; wil this have any impact on bitcoin?12:39
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StamehadAdlai13:37
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AdrianGsha256 cracked?18:37
AdrianGwat18:37
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kanzurewhen evaluating reasoning, fallacies are a proof of failure of independent verification.18:51
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CodeSharkgiven that cracking sha256 and cracking ecdsa would probably require very different techniques it would be very strange for both to be cracked the same day...and if such a thing happened, the impact on bitcoin would be the least of our worries :)19:09
CodeSharkecdsa will likely be cracked at some point eventually, though19:10
CodeSharkall crypto based on representations of cyclic groups in which computing the log is hard will probably succumb to quantum crypto19:12
CodeSharkerr, quantum computers19:12
AdrianGjust a matter of time.19:14
sipaor not19:19
AdrianGsipa: you dont think ecdsa will eventually be broken by QC?19:20
CodeSharkwill ECDSA be broken by QC? (1/sqrt[2]) (|yes> + |no>)19:21
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sipaAdrianG: if general QC is able to scale up to the number of qubits needed to implement EC group operations, it will certainly break it (and by break, i mean reduce to polynomial time attack complexity), if it doesn't, it doesn't19:24
CodeSharkit depends on which branch of the multiverse you ultimately find yourself in ;)19:24
sipaat this point i don't think it's established that such a QC is even physically possible19:25
AdrianGsipa: theoretical physics foundation or engineering possibility?19:25
CodeSharkit's a tough problem...but I think with error correction and good engineering, barring any serious problems with quantum mechanics it seems very plausible19:25
CodeSharkperhaps the constraint here is thermodynamic19:26
CodeSharkinherently thermodynamic19:26
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CodeSharkbarring any serious issues with the theory, that is19:27
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AdrianGhttps://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/the-mathematical-trick-that-helped-smash-the-record-for-the-largest-number-ever-factorised-by-a-77fde88499#.hz2cmri5a19:28
AdrianGi dont think we have any explicit theoretical limitations on scaling.19:28
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CodeSharkthat article is interesting...but I think the more fundamental problem is period finding...factorization is reduced to period finding, but period finding is what we're ultimately after. the factorization tricks are interesting but only seem to lead to special cases of weak choices of prime pairs19:31
AdrianGCodeShark: sure, its a bunch of tricks + 4 quibts.19:31
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CodeSharkso 4 qubits is the current NMR record, eh?19:33
CodeSharkNMR seemed promising largely because the equipment required to perform such computations already exists19:34
AdrianGand now we have 2 qubit gates in silicon19:34
maakuNV diamond qubits can get you basically any size entangled state ... if you had atomic precision over manufacturing19:34
CodeSharkbut NMR seems to be very limited in scalability19:34
AdrianGwe know how to scale silicon.19:35
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AdrianG"Remember that quantum computers have obsessed internet weirdos for as long as the concept has existed."19:37
AdrianGlol19:37
sipaobligatory xkcd 46519:39
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CodeSharkthe three most confusing pieces of nomenclature in the scientific literature of the last couple decades: "quantum teleportation", "genetic cloning", "bitcoin address"19:44
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bsm117532"quantum teleportation" is an outright misappropriation of the term, to grab headlines.  :-(  Scientists should be more honest and less sensationalist.20:22
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justanotheruserbsm117532: s/scientists/journalists/20:47
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adam3usso with seg-witness the effective block size EBS, witness size WS and block size BS there is an accounting rule that EBS=BS+0.25*WS<1MB this is to encourage space efficient use of both BS and WS. the penalty for inefficient WS use is "artificial" loss of access to some of BS.23:08
adam3usfor example if WS=1MB, then BS=750kB and EBS=1.75MB23:08
adam3uswhere if one was inefficient for some reason used without added functionality WS=2MB then BS=500kB and EBS=1MB penalty of 250kB of BS vs former case23:10
adam3usfor selecting transactions it must also be reasonably simple to sort transactions in fee order. for this you calculate fee per EBS kB23:13
adam3usquestion: is there an alternate sorting rule that incentivises efficient BS & WS use that gives access to BS==1MB while still being a simple sorting function for fee per EBS kB?23:14
maakui worry we are getting too deep in the weeds in analysis of the BS+0.25*WS metric when jonas' metric provides a better starting point23:16
ajadam3us: i thought "effective" BS was BS+WS, and "virtual" BS was BS+0.25*WS fwiw23:26
adam3usreplace EBS with VBS probably yes that was used in sipa presentation23:27
adam3usthough it's not so virtual - they are bytes sent over the wire.23:27
ajadam3us: and ttbomk the only way to keep fee calculations "simple" is by having BS+k*WS < l for some k,l23:28
adam3usoh doh.  yes you are right!23:28
adam3usmaaku: does jonas metric become multi-dimensional?23:28
maakuno23:28
maakuit's a linear function23:29
maakulike sipa's but it includes more terms23:29
adam3usmaaku: ok i guess right there is VBS=f(BS,WS,sigops, …)23:29
ajadam3us: call it "block validation cost" at that point, i think?23:30
maakuaj: 'validation cost metric' is the name of the talk ;)23:30
adam3usso how will this function be used.  calc function for each tx, sort, fill up block. but how is VBS calculated in this case?23:31
ajmaaku: ahhhh, /now/ i remember that talk23:31
ajadam3us: as long as f() is a linear combination of factors, f(BLOCK) = sum f(tx)23:32
ajadam3us: so just keep adding tx's by fee/cost-metric until you hit the limit23:32
adam3usaj: right but how does that penalise inefficient use of metrics if it is not consensus enforceable23:34
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ajadam3us: oh, i thought the idea was this was what consensus should be enforcing23:34
adam3usaj: VBS < 1MB is enforced23:34
maakuadam3us: it is consensus enforceable...23:34
maakuadam3us: no, the idea is to get rid of this block size stuff entirely23:35
ajadam3us: ie, hard fork to use this formulation rather than separate limits for blocksize and sigops23:35
maakuyou fill based on cost metric until either VBS>1MB or cost metric limit is hit23:35
maakuwhen hard fork eventually happens, drop the VBS>1MB limit23:35
adam3usoh ok.  sorry i was focussing on the application of cost metrics to seg-witness in a soft-fork setting23:35
maakueven in a soft fork setting it is still true23:36
ajadam3us: (gmaxwell suggested the other day that you could set things up so that there was an initial hard fork, but then readjusting the parameters every two-years (eg) could be done by soft-fork)23:36
adam3usyou can fill it but not enforce it?23:36
maakubecause the coefficients are set such that you can never hit VBS>1MB while being under metric23:36
adam3usmaaku: ok that was the magic info i was looking for.23:36
adam3usso it is completely analogous23:36
adam3usit is axiomatic that if sum f(tx) < cost-limit then BS < 1MB23:37
adam3usso to generalise it whichever function is used the question becomes is there an alternate penalty mechanism that allows BS==1MB rather than BS < 1MB23:41
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adam3usflexcap things seem possible pay to future miner or higher difficulty (for bloated VBS)23:48
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