--- Log opened Sat Dec 19 00:00:41 2015 | ||
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smellymoo_ | you guys are going to love this! I have just got the first public draft of my whitepaper to make a dynamic (web2.0) peer-to-peer world-wide-web :D | 00:07 |
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smellymoo_ | https://github.com/smellymoo/Interpeer/blob/master/whitepaper.md | 00:07 |
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AaronvanW | re: input back-links | 04:55 |
AaronvanW | I thought SPV nodes already did (something like) this. So I'm either not understanding the concept or I'm not understanding how SPV nodes currently work. Maybe ping me if you see this message? | 04:55 |
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pistdov | This is wat satoshi envisioned for bitcoin, this picture represents "balance" and the notion of "by the people and for the people": https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BrxyUeUCUAASNcy.jpg | 11:42 |
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kanzure | that's off-topic. | 11:51 |
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pistdov | wikileaks just released a new dump; sha256, and ecdsa were cracked yesterday; wil this have any impact on bitcoin? | 12:39 |
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Stamehad | Adlai | 13:37 |
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AdrianG | sha256 cracked? | 18:37 |
AdrianG | wat | 18:37 |
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kanzure | when evaluating reasoning, fallacies are a proof of failure of independent verification. | 18:51 |
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CodeShark | given that cracking sha256 and cracking ecdsa would probably require very different techniques it would be very strange for both to be cracked the same day...and if such a thing happened, the impact on bitcoin would be the least of our worries :) | 19:09 |
CodeShark | ecdsa will likely be cracked at some point eventually, though | 19:10 |
CodeShark | all crypto based on representations of cyclic groups in which computing the log is hard will probably succumb to quantum crypto | 19:12 |
CodeShark | err, quantum computers | 19:12 |
AdrianG | just a matter of time. | 19:14 |
sipa | or not | 19:19 |
AdrianG | sipa: you dont think ecdsa will eventually be broken by QC? | 19:20 |
CodeShark | will ECDSA be broken by QC? (1/sqrt[2]) (|yes> + |no>) | 19:21 |
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sipa | AdrianG: if general QC is able to scale up to the number of qubits needed to implement EC group operations, it will certainly break it (and by break, i mean reduce to polynomial time attack complexity), if it doesn't, it doesn't | 19:24 |
CodeShark | it depends on which branch of the multiverse you ultimately find yourself in ;) | 19:24 |
sipa | at this point i don't think it's established that such a QC is even physically possible | 19:25 |
AdrianG | sipa: theoretical physics foundation or engineering possibility? | 19:25 |
CodeShark | it's a tough problem...but I think with error correction and good engineering, barring any serious problems with quantum mechanics it seems very plausible | 19:25 |
CodeShark | perhaps the constraint here is thermodynamic | 19:26 |
CodeShark | inherently thermodynamic | 19:26 |
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CodeShark | barring any serious issues with the theory, that is | 19:27 |
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AdrianG | https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/the-mathematical-trick-that-helped-smash-the-record-for-the-largest-number-ever-factorised-by-a-77fde88499#.hz2cmri5a | 19:28 |
AdrianG | i dont think we have any explicit theoretical limitations on scaling. | 19:28 |
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CodeShark | that article is interesting...but I think the more fundamental problem is period finding...factorization is reduced to period finding, but period finding is what we're ultimately after. the factorization tricks are interesting but only seem to lead to special cases of weak choices of prime pairs | 19:31 |
AdrianG | CodeShark: sure, its a bunch of tricks + 4 quibts. | 19:31 |
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CodeShark | so 4 qubits is the current NMR record, eh? | 19:33 |
CodeShark | NMR seemed promising largely because the equipment required to perform such computations already exists | 19:34 |
AdrianG | and now we have 2 qubit gates in silicon | 19:34 |
maaku | NV diamond qubits can get you basically any size entangled state ... if you had atomic precision over manufacturing | 19:34 |
CodeShark | but NMR seems to be very limited in scalability | 19:34 |
AdrianG | we know how to scale silicon. | 19:35 |
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AdrianG | "Remember that quantum computers have obsessed internet weirdos for as long as the concept has existed." | 19:37 |
AdrianG | lol | 19:37 |
sipa | obligatory xkcd 465 | 19:39 |
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CodeShark | the three most confusing pieces of nomenclature in the scientific literature of the last couple decades: "quantum teleportation", "genetic cloning", "bitcoin address" | 19:44 |
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bsm117532 | "quantum teleportation" is an outright misappropriation of the term, to grab headlines. :-( Scientists should be more honest and less sensationalist. | 20:22 |
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justanotheruser | bsm117532: s/scientists/journalists/ | 20:47 |
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adam3us | so with seg-witness the effective block size EBS, witness size WS and block size BS there is an accounting rule that EBS=BS+0.25*WS<1MB this is to encourage space efficient use of both BS and WS. the penalty for inefficient WS use is "artificial" loss of access to some of BS. | 23:08 |
adam3us | for example if WS=1MB, then BS=750kB and EBS=1.75MB | 23:08 |
adam3us | where if one was inefficient for some reason used without added functionality WS=2MB then BS=500kB and EBS=1MB penalty of 250kB of BS vs former case | 23:10 |
adam3us | for selecting transactions it must also be reasonably simple to sort transactions in fee order. for this you calculate fee per EBS kB | 23:13 |
adam3us | question: is there an alternate sorting rule that incentivises efficient BS & WS use that gives access to BS==1MB while still being a simple sorting function for fee per EBS kB? | 23:14 |
maaku | i worry we are getting too deep in the weeds in analysis of the BS+0.25*WS metric when jonas' metric provides a better starting point | 23:16 |
aj | adam3us: i thought "effective" BS was BS+WS, and "virtual" BS was BS+0.25*WS fwiw | 23:26 |
adam3us | replace EBS with VBS probably yes that was used in sipa presentation | 23:27 |
adam3us | though it's not so virtual - they are bytes sent over the wire. | 23:27 |
aj | adam3us: and ttbomk the only way to keep fee calculations "simple" is by having BS+k*WS < l for some k,l | 23:28 |
adam3us | oh doh. yes you are right! | 23:28 |
adam3us | maaku: does jonas metric become multi-dimensional? | 23:28 |
maaku | no | 23:28 |
maaku | it's a linear function | 23:29 |
maaku | like sipa's but it includes more terms | 23:29 |
adam3us | maaku: ok i guess right there is VBS=f(BS,WS,sigops, …) | 23:29 |
aj | adam3us: call it "block validation cost" at that point, i think? | 23:30 |
maaku | aj: 'validation cost metric' is the name of the talk ;) | 23:30 |
adam3us | so how will this function be used. calc function for each tx, sort, fill up block. but how is VBS calculated in this case? | 23:31 |
aj | maaku: ahhhh, /now/ i remember that talk | 23:31 |
aj | adam3us: as long as f() is a linear combination of factors, f(BLOCK) = sum f(tx) | 23:32 |
aj | adam3us: so just keep adding tx's by fee/cost-metric until you hit the limit | 23:32 |
adam3us | aj: right but how does that penalise inefficient use of metrics if it is not consensus enforceable | 23:34 |
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aj | adam3us: oh, i thought the idea was this was what consensus should be enforcing | 23:34 |
adam3us | aj: VBS < 1MB is enforced | 23:34 |
maaku | adam3us: it is consensus enforceable... | 23:34 |
maaku | adam3us: no, the idea is to get rid of this block size stuff entirely | 23:35 |
aj | adam3us: ie, hard fork to use this formulation rather than separate limits for blocksize and sigops | 23:35 |
maaku | you fill based on cost metric until either VBS>1MB or cost metric limit is hit | 23:35 |
maaku | when hard fork eventually happens, drop the VBS>1MB limit | 23:35 |
adam3us | oh ok. sorry i was focussing on the application of cost metrics to seg-witness in a soft-fork setting | 23:35 |
maaku | even in a soft fork setting it is still true | 23:36 |
aj | adam3us: (gmaxwell suggested the other day that you could set things up so that there was an initial hard fork, but then readjusting the parameters every two-years (eg) could be done by soft-fork) | 23:36 |
adam3us | you can fill it but not enforce it? | 23:36 |
maaku | because the coefficients are set such that you can never hit VBS>1MB while being under metric | 23:36 |
adam3us | maaku: ok that was the magic info i was looking for. | 23:36 |
adam3us | so it is completely analogous | 23:36 |
adam3us | it is axiomatic that if sum f(tx) < cost-limit then BS < 1MB | 23:37 |
adam3us | so to generalise it whichever function is used the question becomes is there an alternate penalty mechanism that allows BS==1MB rather than BS < 1MB | 23:41 |
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adam3us | flexcap things seem possible pay to future miner or higher difficulty (for bloated VBS) | 23:48 |
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--- Log closed Sun Dec 20 00:00:42 2015 |
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