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| kanzure | "Lightning hubs & pooled reserves" https://gist.github.com/jonnynewbs/a8ac4d7d27cb74c5b486 http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2015-December/000399.html | 06:14 |
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| maaku | kanzure: "congrats, you invented ripple!" | 09:28 |
| kanzure | original ripple had a native digital currency? | 09:29 |
| maaku | kanzure: why does it need to be digital | 09:29 |
| maaku | original ripple would have involved someting akin to localbitcoins for the redemption of IOUs | 09:30 |
| maaku | what jonny hasn't figured out yet is that everyone involved can take the role imagined for the hub, Hector, here | 09:31 |
| alpalp | maaku: people convinced that LN requires hubs | 09:32 |
| alpalp | not sure how to break that misconception | 09:32 |
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| maaku | alpalp: would have helped if Poone didn't propagate that misconception in the very first descriptions of lightning ... | 09:32 |
| coinoperated | this is an interesting convo, I asked on Reddit a few months ago if LN was basically Ripple on top of Bitcoin, someone in the Ripple sub said yes though I don't recall their reasoning | 09:33 |
| maaku | coinoperated: not Ripple Labs. LN is not what Ripple Labs thinks ripple is. | 09:33 |
| maaku | but yes, it is exactly Ryan Fugger's ripple on bitcoin | 09:33 |
| coinoperated | so old ripple, pre XRP | 09:33 |
| alpalp | maaku: Need some fancy graphics and animations to show how it would work. | 09:34 |
| alpalp | point people to that. | 09:34 |
| maaku | alpalp: but can't really lay the blame on anyone because Poone and Tadge were extending "hub and spoke" payment channels as described by this community, which very much did require hubs | 09:34 |
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| maaku | so Poone was sortof talking to us, in our language, when he talked about hubs of a hub-and-spoke network, even thought LN really doesn't need hubs at all (and in fact, makes them rather uneconomical to run) | 09:34 |
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| alpalp | Explaining technical concepts to semi-technical people is probably one of the hardest things to do. | 09:37 |
| kanzure | there's no where on this planet where you have to first explain every detail about a thing you are working on before you work on it. | 09:37 |
| maaku | alpalp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9KqSgRZYgg | 09:37 |
| alpalp | kanzure: I'm not saying you have to explain every detail, but having a good source of information that explains things in a way they can understand that's accurate is beneficial. | 09:38 |
| maaku | LN lets you do "trustless ripple" by locking up the coins involved | 09:39 |
| kanzure | i have not seen a growth in the number of people able to explain payment channels | 09:39 |
| maaku | but there is in fact real benefit to the trustedform using IOUs as well | 09:39 |
| kanzure | or, rather, i mean, growth in the number of people who spend time explaining payment channels :-) | 09:39 |
| maaku | among other things you can bootstrap decentralized fiat this way | 09:39 |
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| alpalp | kanzure: it's certainly time consuming, and we have a lot of misconceptions due to poor choices of terminology early on that make it harder. | 09:40 |
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| eragmus1 | just to confirm, maaku, re: "LN really doesn't need hubs at all (and in fact, makes them rather uneconomical to run)" — is the reason: velocity of money between hub & counterparties… vs. opportunity cost of hub locking money? | 09:41 |
| eragmus1 | i think that's how poon described it at HK | 09:42 |
| kanzure | there are just nodes. hubs was a concept of a special type of node. but there are no special types now. | 09:42 |
| instagibbs | I think you should make it clear that there will be hubs, but only where it makes sense. | 09:42 |
| instagibbs | hubs as in "large nodes" | 09:42 |
| kanzure | what happened to the "in a few days" lightning mixnet announcement from a few days ago? | 09:43 |
| eragmus1 | what is "mixnet"? | 09:45 |
| coinoperated | i think part of the challenge is that the people who are the natural audience for hearing such an explanation first have to be talked through their preexisting views on block size, to unwind them back to a point of suspended judgement on the subject | 09:45 |
| kanzure | mixnet is "mix network" | 09:45 |
| kanzure | (mixing) | 09:45 |
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| coinoperated | you have to meet people where they are | 09:45 |
| eragmus1 | ah okay thanks | 09:46 |
| kanzure | coinoperated: no; you can theoretically understand payment channels even if you want a large max block size. | 09:46 |
| kanzure | desiring that other change does not make payment channels fundamentally different | 09:46 |
| AdrianG | is there any interest in bip47? | 09:46 |
| eragmus1 | coinoperated: there is a meme that LN is blockstream created and operated and for-profit-for-blockstream — that creates mental block | 09:46 |
| kanzure | this is rapidly becoming off-topic | 09:47 |
| coinoperated | @kanzure: you can't if you are already convinced LN is a bandaid on small blocks. | 09:47 |
| eragmus1 | AdrianG: samourai wallet is implementing bip47 | 09:48 |
| coinoperated | @eragmus1 right | 09:48 |
| kanzure | coinoperated: payment channels are basically zero-conf transactions and literally nobody things that zero-conf is a bandaid on small block size. | 09:48 |
| kanzure | *thinks | 09:48 |
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| phantomcircuit | kanzure, payment channels also coalesce multiple smaller payments into a single larger payment | 09:50 |
| eragmus1 | AdrianG: more info, see here — https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3vpdyj/samouraiwalletdev_bip47_reusable_payment_codes/ | 09:50 |
| AdrianG | eragmus1: source of your info? | 09:50 |
| AdrianG | ok thx | 09:50 |
| eragmus1 | np! | 09:50 |
| kanzure | phantomcircuit: by any chance did you look at http://lfe.mit.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/nbt2012.pdf yesterday? | 09:50 |
| phantomcircuit | kanzure, i was on planes literally all day yesterday so no :P | 09:51 |
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| phantomcircuit | kanzure, without reading more than the abstract i would guess that it's a good idea and doomed to fail for entirely political reasons | 09:53 |
| kanzure | well.... i think it's more likely to fail due to competition from other lower-risk bonds. | 09:53 |
| kanzure | lower-risk probably-higher-yield bonds | 09:53 |
| AdrianG | eragmus1: it does not require any change in the core? | 09:53 |
| eragmus1 | no, AdrianG, no change. it can work right now. | 09:53 |
| phantomcircuit | the principle obstacle to acquiring funds for biomedical research is that the window of time in which the result will be marketable and patent encumbered is typically only 2-5 years | 09:54 |
| kanzure | yes that is a big obstacle; but also, why bother with risk there when there are many other financial opportunities competing for your investment? | 09:54 |
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| phantomcircuit | kanzure, a structure that moves the ultimate beneficiaries further away from that reality is just going to make that a larger obstacle | 09:54 |
| AdrianG | phantomcircuit: 2-5 years? | 09:55 |
| kanzure | phantomcircuit: the reason why i was looking at this was to see what academia thought about funding for high (technical) risk projects. the conclusion seems to be "lol we have no idea". | 09:55 |
| maaku | eragmus1: it's because there is an opportunity cost for funds used by the hub that does not exist for direct user-to-user connections | 09:55 |
| kanzure | er, high (technical) risk projects that also happen to require lots and lots of capital | 09:55 |
| maaku | to use lightning you need to lock up funds approximately equal to your cash flow needs, which are funds that are going to be idle in hot or warm wallets anyway | 09:56 |
| phantomcircuit | AdrianG, patents are for 20 years and it takes 15-18 years to go from discovery to salable product | 09:56 |
| maaku | but the hub puts on its side of the channel it's own funds that it otherwise would have invested or whatever -- the hub itself does not transact | 09:56 |
| AdrianG | phantomcircuit: you can have multiple patents, on all sorts | 09:56 |
| kanzure | (more specifically: the conclusion is "securitization and sell debt in periodic bond issuances, try to minimize risk by increasing size of the portfolio, but individual project risk is not mitigated") | 09:56 |
| AdrianG | no way its 2 year window. 5+ is more realistic. | 09:56 |
| kanzure | ((securitization of "research-backed obligations" (roalties and intellectual property stuff)) | 09:57 |
| kanzure | *royalties | 09:57 |
| eragmus1 | right, okay maaku thanks | 09:57 |
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| phantomcircuit | kanzure, the problem is really that many of these projects have a negative risk adjusted return | 09:57 |
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| maaku | so on a macro scale a hub requires twice as much total funds locked up, which is inefficient, and on a micro scale those extra funds are provided to the hub at cost by investors who give up opportunity.. so it's not obvious that running a hub makes economic sense | 09:57 |
| kanzure | even if it was a positive return i still think there are many other less risky opportunities for money to fund | 09:58 |
| phantomcircuit | it's just that nobody likes admitting that developing drugs to cure obscure cancers is a money losing proposition | 09:58 |
| kanzure | this is not a problem only for big pharma. basically lots of high tech stuff has this problem. | 09:58 |
| eragmus1 | yeah maaku agreed | 09:58 |
| kanzure | hm well wait, i guess you are saying that the obscurity of the cancers, and the other abandoned rare diseases, have too low returns; | 09:58 |
| eragmus1 | although i guess it depends how much traffic the hub gets maaku | 09:58 |
| eragmus1 | the 'velocity' component. | 09:58 |
| kanzure | and other tech ventures might have broader addressable markets, so perhaps their risk adjusted return is better looking...... maybe. | 09:59 |
| phantomcircuit | kanzure, high tech projects requiring 100m+ in capital that are high risk but high return? uh like what? | 09:59 |
| maaku | eragmus1: to be certain hubs were pretty much required in pre-lightning payment networks to minimize # of hops, and minimize chance of getting stuck along the route | 09:59 |
| eragmus1 | poon said he thinks network topology may be influenced by how the Lightning network begins its life | 09:59 |
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| maaku | but with lightning those risks go away | 09:59 |
| kanzure | phantomcircuit: brain uploading, cryonics, dyson spheres, self-replication, brain implants, nootropics | 09:59 |
| kanzure | phantomcircuit: longevity, anti-aging stuff. | 09:59 |
| AdrianG | arent biggest costs of drug development marketing related? | 09:59 |
| AdrianG | and not R&D | 10:00 |
| instagibbs | lol dyson spheres | 10:00 |
| phantomcircuit | kanzure, im pretty sure we know how to build a dyson sphere :P | 10:00 |
| kanzure | why would marketing be drug development? | 10:00 |
| instagibbs | why not planet smashers too | 10:00 |
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| AdrianG | kanzure: because you need to push drugs you make | 10:00 |
| kanzure | phantomcircuit: there's a few missing steps (materials, mostly, and also the scaling of such an effort)... but yeah sorta. | 10:00 |
| kanzure | AdrianG: that is not drug development. go away. | 10:00 |
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| phantomcircuit | kanzure, there's actually a surprising amount of money going into brain machine interfacing because of prosthetics | 10:00 |
| kanzure | instagibbs: yeah i am working on planet smashers. | 10:00 |
| maaku | phantomcircuit: actually there are probably some pretty interesting problems in architecting a dyson sphere .. what kind of stress does a solar mass ejection cause? | 10:01 |
| kanzure | phantomcircuit: brain-machine interfacing really sucks, but this is perhaps the most interesting overview lately http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Designing%20scalable%20biological%20interfaces%20-%20Marblestone.pdf | 10:01 |
| phantomcircuit | maaku, i'd expect that you wouldn't actually enclose 100% of the sphere | 10:01 |
| kanzure | yes a dyson swarm is a better idea | 10:01 |
| instagibbs | I think swarm is best yeah | 10:02 |
| coinoperated | Dyson spheres are on topic? | 10:02 |
| phantomcircuit | 1% would be sufficient to produce more energy than we're going to know what to do with for a very very long time | 10:02 |
| coinoperated | they're cool and all | 10:02 |
| maaku | coinoperated: haha nope | 10:02 |
| kanzure | dyson swarms are necessary for advanced bitcoin mining | 10:02 |
| phantomcircuit | :P | 10:02 |
| kanzure | because... reasons. | 10:02 |
| maaku | phantomcircuit: oh I can find uses :P | 10:02 |
| coinoperated | actually they are most likely anything but cool, but YNWIM | 10:02 |
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| helo | 1) set up dyson swarm, 2) aim energy beam at competing miner fab plants | 10:03 |
| brg444 | kanzure the sun is indeed a centralization concern.... | 10:03 |
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| kanzure | docl has been looking into using high-energy lasers for influencing atmospheric chemistry of remote planets for long-range remote fabrication, but i don't think he has any funding yet | 10:03 |
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| helo | (be ready to capture incoming energy beam attack and store for ~free energy) | 10:04 |
| coinoperated | aka the plot of Titan AE | 10:04 |
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| kanzure | phantomcircuit: so your contention is that for non-big-pharma stuff, high risk tech projects are more likely to get funded as long as they have (way) better risk-adjusted returns compared to big pharma blockdud drugs? | 10:04 |
| helo | orly | 10:04 |
| * maaku appreciates how kanzure said "this is rapidly going off topic" with respect to LN/Blockstream and then went on to discuss dyson spheres & big pharma | 10:05 | |
| zookolaptop | I see that the wizards channel is living up to its name today. | 10:05 |
| eragmus1 | lol maaku i noticed same :P | 10:05 |
| zookolaptop | lol | 10:05 |
| kanzure | maaku: no, the off-topic part was assuming that user misunderstanding of tech is a good reason to placate to their misunderstandings... | 10:05 |
| kanzure | 09:46 < eragmus1> coinoperated: there is a meme that LN is blockstream created and operated and for-profit-for-blockstream — that creates mental block | 10:06 |
| kanzure | that stuff. | 10:06 |
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| eragmus1 | they're not misunderstanding though, kanzure | 10:06 |
| eragmus1 | humans are emotional creatures, mostly | 10:06 |
| coinoperated | it so happens that users pay the bills | 10:06 |
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| eragmus1 | so blockstream FUD is very effective at creating mental/emotional block. | 10:06 |
| kanzure | this is still off-topic though. | 10:07 |
| AdrianG | kanzure: do you have data on how many drugs flunk out after multi-site phase 3/4 trials? | 10:07 |
| kanzure | "Diagnosing the decline in pharmaceutical R&D efficiency" http://www.nature.com/nrd/journal/v11/n3/full/nrd3681.html | 10:07 |
| AdrianG | paywalled ffs | 10:08 |
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| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Diagnosing%20the%20decline%20in%20pharmaceutical%20research%20and%20development%20efficiency.pdf | 10:08 |
| kanzure | so impatient | 10:08 |
| AdrianG | time is money. | 10:08 |
| coinoperated | you aren't truly a full stack developer if you can't code ML at one end, and talk the VC's brother through his objections over your spelling of the logo at the other | 10:09 |
| AdrianG | nice. lots of papers. | 10:09 |
| kanzure | AdrianG: also http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/ | 10:09 |
| AdrianG | bookmarked. | 10:10 |
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| kanzure | phantomcircuit: so, what's the actual conversion between high tech risk and necessary yield/return amount? | 10:11 |
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| kanzure | probably just a function of the other competing investment opportunities | 10:12 |
| kanzure | makes sense that some projects would be always inaccessible due to overly high risk and insufficient feasible returns. | 10:12 |
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| phantomcircuit | kanzure, afaict the people investing in high risk things are looking for 10x returns | 10:15 |
| kanzure | well "high risk" is relative though | 10:16 |
| phantomcircuit | 1000:1 | 10:16 |
| kanzure | who's making these odds? or er.. what? how do you even compare risks. | 10:16 |
| phantomcircuit | kanzure, that's the part that separates rich vcs from other vcs | 10:17 |
| AdrianG | so its basically lack of increases in effiency at clinical trial stage. | 10:18 |
| kanzure | clinical trial extreme costs, fda costs, lots and lots of ineffiency in regulation around this too. and insurance costs. | 10:18 |
| AdrianG | no wonder so many trials are done outside the US now. | 10:18 |
| kanzure | phantomcircuit: but they don't chase risk, they chase traction. | 10:18 |
| AdrianG | kanzure: phase 3+ thats just to gain market authorization. | 10:19 |
| AdrianG | these are all marketing/regulatory costs. | 10:19 |
| phantomcircuit | kanzure, sure, but someone somewhere took a risk before there was any traction | 10:19 |
| maaku | this should probably be on ##hplusroadmap, not wizards | 10:20 |
| AdrianG | i actually thought i was in hplus lo | 10:20 |
| kanzure | phantomcircuit: i don't know if that's true :-). | 10:20 |
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| phantomcircuit | >.> | 10:21 |
| zooko | What I like about twitter is that it is filtered on people, not filtered on topic. | 10:23 |
| zooko | And, that I get to choose my own set of people-filters, rather than subscribe to some set of people-filters maintained by a moderator or whatever. | 10:23 |
| eragmus | so AdrianG yes, more bip47 info is at that link i posted. let me know if you have other questions about it | 10:24 |
| kanzure | are you saying you like us | 10:24 |
| zooko | Basically, I'd rather talk about drug development with the people of #bitcoin-wizards than with the people of ##hplusroadmap | 10:24 |
| zooko | Oh well. | 10:24 |
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| zooko | Maybe I'll go talk about drug development with people on twitter. | 10:24 |
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| eragmus | lol. zooko it's not invalid. but wizards doesn't seem appropriate. instead, a room should be created all about 'off-topic but with bitcoiners' perhaps. i would definitely join. | 10:25 |
| AdrianG | eragmus: you are working on bip47? | 10:25 |
| AdrianG | or what is the root of your interest in it | 10:25 |
| kanzure | re the hplusroadmap channel, a description is over here http://diyhpl.us/wiki/hplusroadmap | 10:25 |
| eragmus | no AdrianG "privacy ftw!", so i take interest in everything of that sort | 10:25 |
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| AdrianG | oic | 10:26 |
| * zooko creates #bitcoin-wizards-offtopic | 10:26 | |
| eragmus | joined. | 10:27 |
| coinoperated | this will become even more poplar than -wizards | 10:28 |
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| instagibbs | can't wait for #bitcoin-wizards-offtopic-discuss-moderated | 10:28 |
| coinoperated | -bork-bork-bork | 10:28 |
| helo | done. | 10:28 |
| kanzure | tech financing (like through bond issuances) is on-topic, i think. | 10:29 |
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| kanzure | speculative tech regarding cryptocurrency-based bonds has often been on-topic in the past. | 10:29 |
| zooko | lol | 10:33 |
| zooko | lol, #bitcoin-wizards-offtopic is hopping | 10:34 |
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| alpalp | block header and transactions | 14:10 |
| alpalp | oops | 14:10 |
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| bramc | I think I mentioned this already, but there are two things which seem to be missing from the roadmap: (1) Specific plans for when and how to roll out opt-in replace by fee, and (2) discussion of whether and when to roll out a 'not valid after' feature for transactions, although I think that one has some serious technical issues. | 15:59 |
| bramc | Although come to think of it maybe those issues and be worked around by putting the 'must exist by' in the output rather than in the transaction itself. | 16:00 |
| bramc | Not the most aesthetic approach, but it should work fine. | 16:01 |
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| bramc | With regards to rollout of opt-in rbf, I'd suggest putting a specific date of when they'll start being accepted by default in the reference implementation. On a technical level, it's probably to define the date as the first time when the median of 11 consecutive blocks has a timestamp exceeding a set time, plus a fixed number of blocks on top of it, probably two days worth. | 16:23 |
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| Anduck | wasn't opt-in rbf frozen for 0.12? | 16:36 |
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| bramc | Anduck, Hmm, it seems it is merged, although this post doesn't say when it's slated for release, and oddly the list of major features for 0.12 doesn't include it https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/670281556536201216 | 17:05 |
| bramc | Also doesn't seem to be any particular timetable of when it goes into effect, which probably means as soon as people upgrade. The solution to the controversy around that one may be 'The core developers do not care about your whining' | 17:07 |
| eragmus | 'The core developers do not care about your whining' — that will make the hivemind more angry | 17:08 |
| bramc | Good thing I'm not a core developer so nobody can claim they're saying that. | 17:09 |
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| eragmus | bramc: Ha, don't give them ideas. Paranoid enough as it is. | 17:11 |
| bramc | In the case of opt-in rbf it really is such a no-brainer that shoving it in without consulting the horde is perfectly reasonable. | 17:14 |
| eragmus | No need to consult, but at least 'inform' via Reddit post, or Blog post, or FAQ document. | 17:15 |
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| eragmus | I guess you read the tweet replies to that tweet you posted… and lost some hope. | 17:16 |
| eragmus | For such people, yeah, there is no hope basically. Or it's not worth the time to educate every last one of that type of person. | 17:17 |
| eragmus | (IMO) | 17:17 |
| alpalp | hivemind just needs to get obsessed with the next idiotic idea- unlimited. | 17:18 |
| alpalp | let them focus on that | 17:18 |
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| bramc | alpalp, What is unlimited? | 17:21 |
| bramc | This is about the closest there's been to hive engagement, it makes me think that discussing highly technical topics on reddit is a lost cause: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3urm8o/optin_rbf_is_misunderstood_ask_questions_about_it/ | 17:22 |
| alpalp | bramc: even more insanity than XT. *no* block size, everyone determines it individually what they'll pass along. Constitution for running it. I'd think it was a parody if I didn't know. Poe's Law. | 17:23 |
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| alpalp | bramc: I've seen some good discussion on technical topics in the past, but it's so overrun with trolls now, it's hard to do so without conspiracy theories and other nonsense. | 17:25 |
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| bramc | alpalp, Nothing could possibly go wrong therte | 17:33 |
| alpalp | bramc: think it's Peter R's brainchild | 17:33 |
| alpalp | should just pet them on the head like children, tell them play nicely, then when miners don't adopt it they can get mad at the miners instead. | 17:34 |
| bramc | That makes completely demented sense | 17:34 |
| alpalp | http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/ | 17:34 |
| bramc | Next there's going to be blowback that the high speed relay and weak blocks do damage to scaling | 17:36 |
| alpalp | segwit rolls out fast: "omg, untested", segwit rolls out slow : "omg, we need capacity increase now!" | 17:41 |
| bramc | Dumb question: Is the canonical ordering of transactions in blocks the lexical ordering of their hashes? | 17:41 |
| andytoshi | bramc: i don't think there is a canonical ordering | 17:42 |
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| bramc | I could have sworn there was something about a BIP which specified a canonical ordering | 17:43 |
| tulip | bramc: lexicographical ordering would produce invalid blocks. | 17:44 |
| bramc | tulip, Huh? I thought the blockchain format allows any ordering. | 17:45 |
| alpalp | bramc: you can have chained transactions in a block. | 17:45 |
| tulip | transactions are processed serially, if you ordered by the hash you can end up spending an output before it was created. | 17:45 |
| bramc | tulip, aaaah, thank you. That's... painful, but understandable. | 17:46 |
| alpalp | IIRC a lot of miners will order blocks (priority)|(sorted by fees) with occasional chains mixed in. | 17:46 |
| Eliel_ | bramc: I think the answer to your question is that the orering is unspecified, unless needed, in which case there's only one valid order :P | 17:47 |
| bramc | I was wondering if it could be reused for the single-block hash root. Doesn't matter quite so much though. Thinking about it now, it's very clear that it's imperative to have a hash root of just the utxo diffs in the one block and have the big utxo set be trailing by one (or two if you want to be on the extreme safe side). Maybe even can skip the current block utxo diff | 17:49 |
| tulip | alpalp: that might be fun to explore. word on the street is that some miners disable priority stuff completely, but I don't know how true that is. | 17:51 |
| tulip | (calculating priority is sort of a pain, really) | 17:52 |
| tulip | bramc: it's sort of a deficiency in Bitcoin in general, canonical sorting would make a lot of sense in many cases. | 17:55 |
| tulip | though I'm not how you'd do that in blocks, as any sort would need to also take into account chains of transactions. | 17:56 |
| bramc | tulip, Thankfully the amount of stuff going into any one block is small enough that it isn't a big deal. | 17:56 |
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| tulip | bramc: blocks can get pretty unwieldy depending on what you're doing with them, the format of them on disk needs lots of iteration to load (you can't seek to a particular position for example). | 17:59 |
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| tulip | I'm not sure if that matters to anyone else really, and I'm not sure what the optimal way of storing the transactions for a block would really be. | 18:03 |
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| eragmus | if you guys want another topic to discuss —> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/012103.html | 18:05 |
| eragmus | "Segregated witnesses and validationless mining" | 18:06 |
| bramc | tulip, Hard to say. Either dependencies have to be built in or you have to rederive them locally to support child pays. Neither are particularly appealing. | 18:06 |
| alpalp | tulip: It depends what you are needing to look at the blocks for. Either you have UTXO cached, or you don't have/aren't caching it and need to recreate it (temporarily or permanently). | 18:06 |
| alpalp | or you are just gathering information? Any other cases? | 18:07 |
| tulip | I'm just musing. | 18:07 |
| tulip | with the current block format you don't know where transactions start and end. so to load them all you have to walk though each transaction (walk each input of the transaction, then each output) and then you've got the start of the next one. | 18:08 |
| alpalp | tulip: but how would you know where the one you want is anyway? | 18:09 |
| bramc | eragmus, It's probably best to fix those problems with weak blocks/iblt/protocol enhancements rather than trying to add new technical requirements. | 18:12 |
| tulip | if TXID were uniformly random and strictly ordered you could make some assumptions, but neither is true. | 18:12 |
| alpalp | tulip: i suppose you could order transactions by txid, and then just do a 2-pass parse on the blocks for validity. | 18:14 |
| bramc | alpalp, That would make running a minimal node more expensive | 18:14 |
| bramc | And increase verification latency | 18:14 |
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| alpalp | bramc: you are changing order of calculations, does it really make it slower? Unless verifying order was required? | 18:15 |
| tulip | TXID aren't random though. | 18:15 |
| tulip | well they're random, but anyone can grind them to any extent they want. | 18:16 |
| bramc | alpalp, Well you need to at least pass through and figure out dependencies so everything can be verified | 18:16 |
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| alpalp | bramc: you go through calculate all the txids first to verify the merkle root, then make a second pass verifying tx are valid (and have the dependency txids calculated). | 18:17 |
| alpalp | am I missing something? | 18:17 |
| tulip | I think Bitcoin Core does that anyway. | 18:17 |
| tulip | validation is run from least to most expensive, proof of work verification, merkle root, then actual transaction checks. | 18:18 |
| bramc | alpalp, Right now there isn't a merkle root, but yeah once there is you need to do two passes anyway, it's a matter of either having to figure out dependencies or having to sort. Not sure which of those is slower. In practice of course we're stuck with having to sort because of the current requirements. | 18:19 |
| eragmus | okay bramc, noted thanks :) | 18:19 |
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| alpalp | bramc: merkle root in the header? | 18:22 |
| bramc | alpalp, Yeah that's my goal | 18:22 |
| tulip | it is in the header today? | 18:23 |
| alpalp | bramc: yeah, I thought it was there today as well. | 18:23 |
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| bramc | It's possible that the merkle root of just the transactions for the current block are in the header and I'm unaware of it. The merkle root for the whole utxo set most definitely is not. | 18:24 |
| tulip | that's all correct. | 18:24 |
| tulip | the block header has the merkle root, then the block binary is just a counter for the number of transactions, and then the raw transaction binaries. the node must rebuild the whole merkle root itself to do validation, that all the transactions are included correctly and that the root matches the header. | 18:25 |
| bramc | Ah, thanks. The merkle roots of new utxos and deleted utxos are different things which I believe aren't included right now. | 18:25 |
| alpalp | bramc: that is correct | 18:25 |
| tulip | bramc: no they're not, the concept of a UTXO database is actually pretty new. wxBitcoin was pretty nuts and did things very differently. | 18:25 |
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| bramc | Oh right, *that* merkle root. Is that one even of a balanced tree? | 18:26 |
| tulip | it's padded out to be balanced, I think from memory the merkle trees used in Bitcoin aren't optimal in some way. | 18:27 |
| bramc | tulip, I doubt that it's 'new' in the sense that it's a completely obvious thing to add for people experienced with crypto protocols. It's 'new' in the sense that nobody has particularly strong confidence that it can be made to work performantly, hence what I'm currently building. | 18:27 |
| bramc | tulip, It's useful for that to be balanced because *in principle* it lets you authenticate bits of the tree before you have the whole thing. I don't think the protocol actually supports that though. | 18:29 |
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| tulip | bramc: what I'm talking about is that the UTXO database was only added to Bitcoin Core in 0.8. prior to that wxBitcoin stored outputs in BerkeleyDB actually in the original merkle trees. the description of pruning in the Bitcoin whitepaper has nodes snipping off spent transactions from these trees which is completely unnecessary and inefficient. | 18:31 |
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| tulip | bramc: did you lose that last message? | 18:33 |
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| bramc | tulip, I got it from the logs. My reaction is 'Eugh' | 18:34 |
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| bramc | Clearly Satoshi is not a data engineer. | 18:35 |
| tulip | there's details in the source which definitely point to Bitcoin not being intended to be used in the real world, at least originally. | 18:38 |
| brg444 | more science fiction? | 18:40 |
| brg444 | http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/1txn | 18:40 |
| brg444 | "An Examination of Single Transaction Blocks and Their Effect on Network Throughput and Block Size" | 18:41 |
| brg444 | w/ charts & colors! | 18:41 |
| alpalp | brg444: I hope this thing finds a way to exist somehow just to watch the train wreck | 18:41 |
| kanzure | as much as those ideas seem to be completely wrong, let's not turn this channel into a hatefactory. | 18:42 |
| tulip | brg444: off topic, please. | 18:42 |
| brg444 | Tbf I was genuinely posting it in the interest of others. it seems at least....somewhat researched | 18:43 |
| brg444 | always help to validate and not assume they're wrong ;) | 18:44 |
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| bramc | brg444, The theory behind that is based on a coherent set of assumptions. Those assumptions happen to be wrong, but for reasons which are sufficiently technical that arguing them on reddit is a bit of a lost cause | 18:45 |
| brg444 | I'd agree to that | 18:46 |
| bramc | brg444, It's based on Peter R's work which we're already familiar with. The wrong assumptions are that (1) the time to propagate a block is linearly proportional to the number of transactions accepted, and (2) that's a good thing | 18:47 |
| brg444 | Yes I also got this impression. It's unfortunate to see such efforts being put to such unproductive use. bramc I never got to ask but I'd be curious to know what it is your dabbling in w/ regards to Bitcoin at the moment. you seem to have something in the pipes? | 18:50 |
| bramc | brg444, I've been working on a merkle set which I babble about on here fairly regularly. It's all the hard work of making a database. | 18:51 |
| bramc | brg444, Also I've been working on making a proofs of space based system work. That's still in theoretical discussions. | 18:51 |
| coinoperated | bramc, what sense of space | 18:52 |
| brg444 | interesting. thanks. | 18:52 |
| bramc | coinoperated, In the sense of making 'mining' require disk storage but not power | 18:53 |
| coinoperated | oh is this like BurstCoin | 18:54 |
| bramc | AUGH | 18:54 |
| coinoperated | lemme guess, you have heard that one before | 18:54 |
| tulip | coinoperated: burstcoin is a broken concept, same effectively as nothing at stake. | 18:55 |
| katu | coinoperated: harder than burstcoin, proof of storing some data in particular | 18:55 |
| katu | not just erasure | 18:55 |
| bramc | No, not like burstcoin. Yes, I've researched this. It's extremely difficult to make a proof of work where the bottleneck is truly storage and not power. The one in spacemint is probably good, but I believe that system as a whole needs some further improvement. | 18:56 |
| coinoperated | ah ok, i know little about Burst because on the surface of it it seemed like a dead end, and altcoin market shenanigans will undermine even the best of intentions anyway. | 18:57 |
| coinoperated | where can i follow your current work on this | 18:58 |
| katu | coinoperate[Dd: any proof of storage is unfixable, not only burst. | 18:58 |
| bramc | coinoperated, There isn't any public writeup of it. There's some babbling in this channel's logs by me and some email discussion which is ongoing | 18:58 |
| coinoperated | @katu: this is my strong hunch, but I have no proof | 18:59 |
| bramc | katu, Untrue! Or at least, probably untrue. Fixing proof of storage is very nontrivial though. | 18:59 |
| katu | bramc: as in, it could replace PoW? | 18:59 |
| coinoperated | dilute PoW, no? | 19:00 |
| katu | bramc: that works for proof of erasure | 19:00 |
| katu | bramc: but storage is entirely new level | 19:00 |
| katu | (storage, as in, useful data) | 19:00 |
| katu | not just erasure garbage | 19:00 |
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| bramc | It appears to be that you have to throw in a bunch of proofs of time and engineer the system as a whole very carefully. It results in a bit of a rube goldberg contraption, but it does appear to be viable. Assuming of course (1) a valid proof of space primitive (2) a valid proof of time primitive and (3) a bunch of carefully done engineering to put them together properly. | 19:00 |
| bramc | katu, I'm talking about erasure | 19:01 |
| katu | oh, ok then | 19:01 |
| coinoperated | wouldn't you need to make sure someone isnt faking storage activity with a summy interface | 19:01 |
| katu | erasure seems workable | 19:01 |
| coinoperated | dummy | 19:01 |
| bramc | The paper spacemint is based on uses the term 'proofs of storage' to refer to what you're calling erasure | 19:01 |
| katu | as long you get that oracle in 2) | 19:01 |
| katu | NUMS oracle | 19:01 |
| coinoperated | i guess this is where the valid proof of storage primitive part comes in | 19:01 |
| bramc | katu, There's a workable primitive for (2) although it's highly inelegant: You do repeated hashing with checkpoints. | 19:02 |
| katu | bramc: yeah, there are multiple approaches all of which seem to have some gotcha | 19:02 |
| jl2012 | bramc, "not valid after" could be added with a new witness structure, but that violate some basic assumptions of Bitcoin that a valid tx should be valid forever (unless doublespent) | 19:03 |
| katu | bramc: some of the more entertaining: abandon blockchain altogether, you get only timestamped designated signers, not data, this getting rid of the grinding problem. now you can use winner from 100 "blocks" in the past as a NUMS. | 19:04 |
| katu | bramc: another proposal is to use separate PoW chain as a nums oracle | 19:04 |
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| katu | say, current bitcoin blockchain :) | 19:04 |
| katu | both carry some huge "but" with it | 19:05 |
| bramc | jl2012, Yes it violates that assumption. There's a strong argument to be made that it's worth getting rid of that assumption so that when a transaction fails because of lack of willingness to pay the fee you can know that it has well and truly failed without having to spend it to invalidate the old transaction, which of course you aren't going to do because of that fee problem. | 19:05 |
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| bramc | katu, Proof of steak also has interesting technical problems. Unfortunately even if you solve them all you're still left with a proof of steak system, which isn't really decentralized at all anyway. | 19:06 |
| katu | bramc: it all boils down how you deal with the source of timestamp. | 19:07 |
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| katu | simplest would be to simply use PoW for timestamps. this would work pretty well for late-stage bitcoin where nodes are incentivized to prove they actually know random sections of blockchain data. | 19:08 |
| katu | and PoS scheme would be just auxiliary proof, with no direct monetary reward incentive, but say, incentive for others to even accept your PoW work | 19:09 |
| katu | (S=storage) | 19:09 |
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| bramc | katu, cow systems also have lots of problems with handling steakholders being offline | 19:11 |
| katu | well, the idea here is basically that you prove knownledge part of the chain depending on your pow result | 19:11 |
| katu | so to mine, you *must* know the whole chain | 19:12 |
| katu | additionaly, you have to broadcast that tiny part of chain you've just proven | 19:12 |
| jl2012 | bramc, ok if outputs of "not valid after" inputs are not allowed to be spent within 100 confirmation. But that will make it much less useful. | 19:12 |
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| katu | this guarantees no disintegration of chain in some dht style storage. | 19:12 |
| katu | this is all assuming people come to terms with the fact that all blokchain data might measure petabytes | 19:12 |
| katu | and that storing all of it is simply inpractictal and not actually necessary. | 19:13 |
| bramc | jl2012, It's okay to spend them immediately if they get committed more than 100 before their not valid after as well | 19:13 |
| bramc | katu, Not sure what you're talking about now. Neither erasure nor cow requires a particularly big blockchain. | 19:14 |
| katu | bramc: i'm not sure what "cow" is. i'm rambling about engineering ideas of useful PoS proof | 19:15 |
| katu | PoS itself is useless, as it seems to always result just nothing at stake / no thermodynamic cap of PoW | 19:15 |
| bramc | katu, 'cow' is my slightly obnoxious term for proofs of steak systems | 19:15 |
| katu | bramc: please use more neutral NaS :) | 19:16 |
| katu | PoS=storage, not steak | 19:16 |
| katu | well, im interested in this erasure of yours. i assume you treat it as a huge mem-hard PoW then | 19:16 |
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| bramc | katu, People have done much more involved analysis than I have on it and have come to the conclusion that you can't prove that a cow system will disintegrate because they can always reach a stable state where somebody has completely 0wned the system and lets it run well enough to maximize their profits. There's probably a real-world lesson in there | 19:17 |
| bramc | katu, There's some info on proofs of space here: https://github.com/kwonalbert/spacemint | 19:18 |
| katu | bramc: is that the precommited pebbles? | 19:19 |
| katu | those cant store data. | 19:19 |
| bramc | katu, Yes this is not 'useful' work | 19:20 |
| katu | im somewhat convinced they dont give the "inverted function" enough justice | 19:20 |
| katu | there are simple schemes to make those not variable tmto | 19:21 |
| katu | and can even possibly store data; albeit with overhead | 19:21 |
| bramc | katu, We seem to have a name collision here. You're referring to proof of space as representing some kind of useful storage. That project (and the academic papers generally) use it to refer to the storage resource with no useful work in it | 19:21 |
| katu | bramc: yeah, its somewhat unfortunate | 19:21 |
| bramc | I haven't read through their latest proof technique. I have some questions about how it works if you know it reasonably well. I independently came up with the 'obvious' approach to proofs of space, which is unfortunately busted. | 19:22 |
| katu | bramc: pebble graphs dont strike me as practical because can't be constructed incrementally. its a time/space hard computation which is then reused to answer random queries. | 19:23 |
| katu | bramc: your intution behind simple function inversion might be right, at least i arrived at a provable result those are not infact vulnerable to variable TMTO as the paper claims. | 19:23 |
| coinoperated | dumb question, doesnt all Proof-of-(IRL_commitment) have to involve no useful recovery of value from the resource committed in order to be economically predictable | 19:23 |
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| coinoperated | if you can get something of value (useful work) back from your sacrificed resource commitment, you haven't actually committed anything of value | 19:24 |
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| bramc | katu, the answering random queries thing is what I want/need anyway, not sure what you mean by incremental, and also not sure if you're saying that you have a proof of space technique which you like better | 19:25 |
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| katu | bramc: well, what is it you thought of and got busted | 19:25 |
| katu | bramc: was it a simple lookup table of intractable function (hash or number field) mapping? | 19:26 |
| bramc | coinoperated, eeeeh, sort of. It would be a nice bonus for something to involve some useful work but the practicalities seem to be ridiculous. | 19:26 |
| bramc | katu, Yeah it was use the closeness of a secure hash of a public key, and you prepare for it by storing a whole lot of public keys in sorted order (simplifying a little here) | 19:26 |
| katu | bramc: let me introduce the concept of "powcrypt", you can take it from here. i suspect you might arrive at same result as i did. | 19:27 |
| coinoperated | right.. see if a miner could recover costs of mining by doing useful work, then the cost of proof drops for that miner. seems like this would cause chaos | 19:28 |
| coinoperated | unless the recovered cost could somehow be made exactly the same value for all miners | 19:28 |
| bramc | katu, I don't think I'm going to be able to find it from that. I have limited bandwidth to think about things right now and proofs of space primitives are sufficiently technical and sufficiently well-handled by others that I haven't been thinking about them at all | 19:29 |
| bramc | coinoperated, That's one of many problems. Another is that useful problems don't conform to the needs of PoW systems at all. | 19:30 |
| katu | bramc: say, you have some predefined string of data. you chop it to say, 30 bit chunks. for each 30 bit chunk, you find 36 bit (1/e overhead or something like that) or so preimage which hashes to each 30 bit chunk. | 19:30 |
| katu | bramc: this way, at roughly 20% overhead you can store arbitrary data, which is difficult to compute, but easy to verify you actually did that computation. | 19:30 |
| katu | now, why this can't be TMTOd? the data you're going to store are commitment, and you do this encoding twice. | 19:31 |
| bramc | katu, I'm unfortunately not following. Are you proposing a proof of space? | 19:31 |
| katu | yes, one which cant be tmtod. its necessary for infinite-size blocks in bitcoin :) | 19:32 |
| bramc | I can only think of these things in terms of an API where there's a challenge and then there's a response which has an amount of quality which goes up proportionally to the amount of space used and has a stochastic distribution | 19:34 |
| bramc | Not even sure if the spacemint one has that sort of API | 19:34 |
| katu | your "quality" metric in those cases is not defining property of PoS | 19:35 |
| katu | its ultimately yes/no thing. if you want to add quality metric, you add multiple copies, each with different encoding and then just hash it against a difficulty target. it gets a stochastic metric regarding to storage used. | 19:36 |
| katu | now this is problematic with the proposed pebble graphs. you have to construct huge, several-gb pebble trees and thats it. want to add more proof? construct another huge several gb pebble tree. | 19:36 |
| katu | thats what i meant with not being "incremental" | 19:36 |
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| bramc | Yes that's very annoying. The busted simple approach is so beautiful. | 19:38 |
| bramc | I actually need that API to get the system as a whole to work properly. | 19:39 |
| bramc | You can even do the busted approach on the unallocated sections of your hard drive, and if they get allocated over oh well, you only lose out on proportional space. | 19:40 |
| bramc | I would like to understand your proposed approach, as would others I think, although at the moment I have merkle sets on the brain and am hacking on that and chatting at the same time, so my cycles are a bit low. | 19:41 |
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| katu | bramc: i plan on writing some sort of poc on it | 19:41 |
| katu | bramc: but principally, its similiar to cuckoo cycle | 19:41 |
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| katu | you store "path" to solve some puzzle, and that puzzle just so happens to be commitment-encrypted useful data | 19:42 |
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| bramc | katu, I have a decent understanding of cukoo, so that at least gives a hint. | 19:43 |
| bramc | But a writeup is needed and would be much appreciated, and not just by me. | 19:43 |
| bramc | Also if you could come up with better proofs of time that would be helpful as well. | 19:43 |
| katu | oh well, its christmas ;_; | 19:43 |
| * katu goes to write up 'powcrypt' approach | 19:43 | |
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| Guest58 | what are people's thoughts about applying blockchain / cryptocurrency to high volume capital markets transactions like cash equities / fixed income? | 20:03 |
| Guest58 | Could the clearance and settlement time for these transactions be significantlly reduced? | 20:03 |
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| katu | Guest58: no. the current blockchain craze for traditional double-entry FIX markets looks ... amusing, at best. | 20:06 |
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| Guest58 | why do you say that? | 20:07 |
| bram__ | Guest58 That isn't a simple question. A lot of it has to do with what's actually holding up transactions in capital markets. One clear benefit of having 'blockchains' which are lightly trusted ledgers which support smart transactions is that they could allow for trades across counterparties without coordinating through a single trusted third party. | 20:08 |
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| katu | Guest58: triple entry accounting as such would be useful, sure. but there are difficulties carrying it out in terms of logistics. | 20:08 |
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| katu | Guest58: first, big capital markets are centralized for a reason and the biggest problem atm is how to make quote data a commitment to the price quoted. | 20:09 |
| katu | Guest58: thats surprisingly completely unrelated to blockchain by the virtue of operation, yet it could be partially solved using hashcash style protocols. | 20:09 |
| bramc | The slow settlement times of capital markets in general are mysterious to me. They seem to take several orders of magnitude longer than makes any sense at all. | 20:10 |
| Guest58 | Bramc: I believe the slow settlement times are more due to regulatory issues vs. technology | 20:10 |
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| bramc | Does anybody know if there's a writeup of the coinswap protocol meant to be read by finance industry types? | 20:11 |
| katu | bramc: depends at which level you're looking. but in terms of volume (dumps from nanex) its not something one could imagine easily as a byzantine process. | 20:11 |
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| coinoperated | correct, red tape evolved incrementally to slow down activity and ensure it passed under many eyes to distribute trust through compliance process. | 20:12 |
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| coinoperated | it allows time for immune system to react before malicious activity can rip the guts out. when it works, you never hear about it. when it doesn't, you get lehman bros., etc. | 20:12 |
| bramc | I know bank transfers have crazy delays in them. Just because you've cashed a check doesn't mean the money won't be retroactively taken out of your account any time in the next two months. Favorite trick of scammers everywhere. | 20:13 |
| alpalp | bramc: I accidentally did that to myself and ended up getting a cashiers check, then a negative balance equal to my house down payment | 20:15 |
| bramc | alpalp, Ouch. It's weird whenever you discuss things like cashier's checks at a bank they act like you're an idiot for not knowing the minutiae of how the different instruments work and how obviously nothing could ever be changed | 20:17 |
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| alpalp | bramc: wrote myself a check out of the wrong account, deposited it. Balance increments. Get cashiers check. Next day, negative huge balance. Write another check out of same wrong account, check bounces again, same negative balance. | 20:18 |
| alpalp | eventually got it resolved, but what a terrible process | 20:18 |
| gwillen | bramc: I mean, to some degree it's important to read about the instruments before dealing with them, since they have different security properties you may want to know about even if the bank doesn't care | 20:22 |
| gwillen | for relevant example, the fact that cashier's checks can come back out of your account for something like 90 days after apparently having been successfully deposited... | 20:22 |
| gwillen | (only in cases of forgery, I think, but nevertheless a common scam) | 20:23 |
| AdrianG | bramc: i would imagine a lot of transfers of more complicated instruments would be due to make sure the title is transferred properly. | 20:23 |
| AdrianG | and there aren't any liens, etc. | 20:23 |
| AdrianG | or some other kind of encumbrance, or whatever the term is. | 20:24 |
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| coinoperated | get this, one of my accounts is at the us Treasury's own in house credit union. Deposited a cashier's check there *from the US Treasury*, still had to wait 2 business days for it to be considered clear. | 20:24 |
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| AdrianG | you work for US Treasury? | 20:25 |
| coinoperated | no, but you don't have to if you meet certain guidelines and live in the district | 20:26 |
| bramc | AdrianG, That doesn't explain why Western Union charges $20 to send *cash*, and doesn't do it instantaneously. That's one case where Bitcoin bizarrely looks better, although it says more about the finance system than it does about Bitcoin | 20:26 |
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| AdrianG | bramc: western union is not even finance industry, really. | 20:27 |
| coinoperated | i also have a NASA credit union account for the same reason. their branches just ahppen to be convenient for me to get to | 20:27 |
| bramc | Or how you need the physical address of a bank to make a wire transfer to it, because apparently maintaining a national database mapping routing numbers to addresses would be a technical impossibility. | 20:27 |
| AdrianG | bramc: physical address is there so that you can sue if anything. | 20:28 |
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| AdrianG | thats all it boils down in the end, legal process/system. | 20:28 |
| bramc | But now I'm getting into the realm of off-topic ranting. The on topic point is that most if not all of the finance industry's inefficiencies are things which blockchain technology can't actually help with. | 20:29 |
| AdrianG | you must have a physical address so that they can be served, if anything. | 20:29 |
| coinoperated | the $5 lock security only costs $5 because it depends on the $500 door security, which depends on the $500,000 house security, which depends on the $50m local police department security etc. | 20:29 |
| AdrianG | bramc: bitcoin doesn't help with any of the legal barriers, no. | 20:29 |
| AdrianG | i dont think. | 20:29 |
| coinoperated | its like a web of trust, sort of thing | 20:29 |
| AdrianG | coinoperated: what are you making analogies with? | 20:30 |
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| coinoperated | that the physical address of a given secured value is part of a larger framework of trust, and thus necessary for the address to be locateable in that framework for the security mechanism to do its job | 20:32 |
| coinoperated | having an address is in a way, proof of work | 20:33 |
| coinoperated | unique | 20:33 |
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| AdrianG | coinoperated: you can have a million corps in one PO box | 20:38 |
| AdrianG | its not proof of work | 20:38 |
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| bramc | Okay, I've now finished rejiggering my verification code for proofs of inclusion and proofs of exclusion. I added checks to make sure that the prefixes are right, but have not made it do a higher form of puking in those error cases, because these are free floating functions and I can't convince myself that that form of edge casing is worth it. The internal validation code of the actual data structure will do such puking. | 20:41 |
| bramc | And with that, I'm off to drive home. | 20:41 |
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