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| bsm1175321 | bramc: Do you have an algorithm to compactly prove that an item is NOT a member of a (Merkle) set? The best I can come up with is O(N) in the size of the set. | 01:05 |
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| bsm1175321 | Oh he's not on. Hope he sees that... | 01:06 |
| adlai | ;;later tell bramc you've got mail! https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/2015-12-28/?msg=56874226&page=2 | 01:06 |
| gribble | The operation succeeded. | 01:06 |
| bsm1175321 | ooh neat, thanks adlai! | 01:07 |
| adlai | when the AI asleeps, funemployed drunkards must drive the bot slaves... yw | 01:08 |
| bsm1175321 | hahaaaaa | 01:08 |
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| tulip | adlai: nobody signed any alerts recently. the message people saw about block frequency in their Bitcoin Core nodes was locally and independently triggered. the node will set local panic messages on all sorts of weird conditions it doesn't think are safe to be operating in. | 02:30 |
| adlai | do you really want to troll me back on this one? bitcoin.org's shadow-cabal TLS server signed the code. | 02:31 |
| adlai | maybe alerts should be randomly endisableable as well? | 02:31 |
| adlai | so people actually configure their own software, god forbit read it. | 02:31 |
| fluffypony | I'm confused | 02:32 |
| tulip | you made a comment which made believe you thought the "too many blocks" message came from the Satoshi centralised alert system, perhaps I misunderstood you. | 02:32 |
| fluffypony | the Gitian-signed binaries aren't signed by bitcoin.org ? | 02:32 |
| * adlai misunderstood the alert. | 02:32 | |
| adlai | and the mysterious workings of machines signing code for other machines to run | 02:33 |
| fluffypony | Gitian is an entirely human-driven system | 02:33 |
| adlai | but hey, satoshi didn't solve key management... | 02:33 |
| fluffypony | a bunch of people build the binaries independently using a system that fixes differences that could occur between builds (eg. file timestamps) | 02:34 |
| adlai | but anyway, sorry for all the drunken noise lately. the one amazing thing about bitcoin is that it stirs up an awful lot of emotion for a bunch of bits. | 02:34 |
| tulip | you're talking about Gitian there, which is unrelated to any alert systems. Gitian allows people to reproduce builds of software down to the byte and confirm that they were created using a set piece of source code. Gitian signatures are people asserting that their real world identify saw this piece of software made in that way. | 02:34 |
| fluffypony | and then they compare the hash of the resulting binary, and if they all agree on it then they sign off on that hash | 02:34 |
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| fluffypony | sigh. | 02:34 |
| tulip | never mind. | 02:34 |
| tulip | I've seen lots of misunderstanding with the centralised alert system and what it can do and thought I could correct it a little. it can't, for example, shut down nodes. that was a wxBitcoin thing which lasted only a major version or two. | 02:36 |
| fluffypony | tulip: have you seen how Darkcoin / Dash cannibalised it? | 02:37 |
| tulip | for "checkpointing" blocks? | 02:37 |
| fluffypony | no even worse | 02:37 |
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| fluffypony | they've made it so that the alert system can be used to turn bits of code on and off as a way of reversing a fork caused by bad code | 02:38 |
| fluffypony | they call it "sporks" | 02:38 |
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| tulip | fluffypony: that's unfortunate. | 02:46 |
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| fluffypony | quite | 02:52 |
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| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Hash%20tube%20signature%20scheme.pdf | 06:35 |
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| kanzure | various math books from springer https://gist.github.com/bishboria/8326b17bbd652f34566a | 08:00 |
| * nsh frowns | 08:05 | |
| nsh | what is the actual provenance of the hash-tube paper? | 08:08 |
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| phantomcircuit | nsh, im just waiting for the altcoin that wrote it to be released claiming to be "from satoshi" | 08:13 |
| * nsh nods | 08:14 | |
| nsh | it is worthwhile considering PQ hash-based signature constructions for cryptocurrencies, but i'm pretty convinced falsely attributing your ideas to satoshi is not indicative of a great attitude or agenda | 08:15 |
| kanzure | provenance is probably not important in this case; i could strip the name from the paper if that would make nsh feel better about how terrible the world is | 08:18 |
| Taek | It's a cool construction at least, but it still results in 8kib signatures, which is not an improvement over the lamport signature | 08:19 |
| nsh | you'd have to elide the memory or recall faculty in my brain too :) | 08:19 |
| kanzure | well that's trivial | 08:19 |
| * kanzure readies the kinetic memory disruptor | 08:19 | |
| nsh | sure, i accept whisky, rum, most dissociatives, &c. | 08:20 |
| nsh | more seriously, i'm not sure there is really much in the way of research findings for the second hash property (preimage resistances given 2/3 of the preimage) | 08:22 |
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| yosso | http://bitcoil.co.il/files/Bitcoin_meetup_Chainless.pptx - Secure "chainless" protocols for Bitcoin by Aviv Zohar | 09:47 |
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| Taek | yosso: can you convert that to something other than .pptx? I can't open it | 09:59 |
| Taek | pdf would be best | 09:59 |
| yosso | not out yet afaik | 10:00 |
| yosso | oh you mean the format | 10:01 |
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| bramc | bsm1175321, Yes I have very nice proof of non-inclusion proofs, that's been a big part of my iteration | 11:30 |
| bramc | bsm1175321, My format is that each level of the tree is a hash of something describing what's immediately below it, a metadata byte followed by one or two hashes, as applicable. | 11:32 |
| bramc | The possible values for metadata are passthrough 0, passthrough 1, terminate 0, terminate 1, terminate both, and both branches. passthrough means only one side has any values below it, the terminates indicate that one or both of the children immediately below are leaves. A leaf gets hashed one extra time at the beginning before being included in the descriptor of the immediate parent | 11:33 |
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| bramc | This way proofs of non-inclusion are very simple: You trace down to where the thing would be if it were in there, and hit a leaf of something different or a passthrough which goes only to the other side | 11:34 |
| bramc | This is the reason for having passthroughs, even though they seem unnecessary at first. Proofs of non-inclusion get a lot gnarlier without them. | 11:38 |
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| bramc | There's also a special metadata value for when there's only a single thing in the entire tree, and a special root value EMPTY for when there's nothing in it and hence nothing to be hashed. | 11:44 |
| bramc | Good grief. Just my proof verification code is 250 lines. I'm hoping that's due to it being parsing code and the rest of this winds up being less voluminous. | 11:48 |
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| JackH | hi kanzure, did you manage to find more than 2 pages? | 11:50 |
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| kanzure | no | 11:53 |
| JackH | everyone seems to refer back to https://www.docdroid.net/mR3fUNS/paper.pdf.html | 11:56 |
| JackH | but there is no indication of how this appeared to begin with | 11:56 |
| kanzure | someone with a blog claimed to be releasing a page per day | 11:59 |
| JackH | I am looking at history now to see where this appeared first | 12:00 |
| JackH | this constantly seems to be referred to: http://bitcoinnewschannel.com/2015/12/27/page-2-of-the-hash-tube-signature-scheme-credited-to-satoshi-nakamoto/ | 12:02 |
| JackH | as the original source | 12:02 |
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| bramc | It obviously isn't by the original Satoshi. For starters, that paper isn't by a native english speaker. | 12:04 |
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| JackH | true, first weird sentence is: of a cryptographic payments | 12:06 |
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| bramc | Up to the end of the paper all it's talking about is a new secure hash based signature scheme. The hash tube idea is cute but doesn't have any obvious benefit over a regular lamport signature. It is extremely fragile though, in that if you use it more than once you'll almost certainly have made it possible for other people to sign arbitrary things later, which can be a useful property to have for some applications | 12:11 |
| bramc | I came up with a cruder trick to do the same thing. The two techniques can be combined effecively. | 12:12 |
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| JackH | the paper lacks the rest of the pages | 12:13 |
| JackH | to make its point | 12:13 |
| JackH | I get where its going, but....I dont get what its all good for | 12:13 |
| bramc | The abstract gives no hint whatsoever of how the new primitive is supposed to be useful | 12:14 |
| bramc | It isn't even clear in what way it's new. Practical secure hash based signatures have been around for a while. The new construction makes winternitz compression impossible. | 12:15 |
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| JackH | yeah this doesnt make sense, to what extend that it is useful | 12:17 |
| JackH | it is neat, but what is the point | 12:17 |
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| bramc | Well, I'll give it credit that it has a construction which tells me how to improve on something I spent time on before. Whether that trick is its point or a coincidental enabler is entirely unclear though. | 12:19 |
| JackH | its being discussed in crypto: | 12:20 |
| JackH | https://www.reddit.com/r/crypto/comments/3yhwwv/hash_tube_signature_scheme/ | 12:20 |
| JackH | constructing what? a private key? | 12:20 |
| bramc | A signature scheme. You can use hash tubes to make it so that if someone signs more than one thing with a signature it blows up in their face horribly. | 12:22 |
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| bramc | Actually, this is probably what's meant by the comment about it providing defense against double-spends. Maybe I should post an explanation of this on reddit. | 12:23 |
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| JackH | would like to know how you come to this understanding | 12:31 |
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| bramc | JackH, When people work on the same problems they tend to come up with the same solutions | 12:34 |
| JackH | sure | 12:35 |
| JackH | feel free to explain it then | 12:35 |
| bramc | I'm typing something on reddit right now. | 12:36 |
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| bramc | I keep getting pulled into these interesting theoretical discussions when I'm trying to do Real Work | 12:36 |
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| JackH | it is frustrating we only have 2 pages | 12:43 |
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| bramc | JackH, https://www.reddit.com/r/crypto/comments/3yhwwv/hash_tube_signature_scheme/cye6k29 | 13:05 |
| bramc | Please tell me if I start sounding like Galois | 13:05 |
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| bramc | Feedback and upvotes welcome. That took a whole bunch of brain cycles I was planning on putting into real work. | 13:16 |
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| bramc | It's getting both upvotes and downvotes now. Apparently my highly technical comments are horribly controversial. | 13:28 |
| kanzure | you shouldn't watch the karma counter, you'll rot your brain like that | 13:28 |
| bramc | Since I never post to reddit, it's new to me. It's fascinating that even this could produce downvotes. That seems to imply that there's a movement to downvote anything which isn't ranting drivel. | 13:32 |
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| kanzure | there are also bots that randomly downvote anything, because bot farmers need to make the accounts look alive and healthy | 13:33 |
| kanzure | it's really completely meaningless | 13:33 |
| jojva_ | if you hit refresh several times you can see your karma changing in a meaningless way. it's just bot battles. | 13:34 |
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| ayn1k | reddit voting should make use of pow | 13:36 |
| kanzure | no, pow does not decide factual correctness of statements, what | 13:36 |
| ayn1k | no, voting does that, and pow prevents a large chunk of spam votes | 13:37 |
| jojva_ | for that you need a decentralized reputation system :) | 13:37 |
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| kanzure | "spam votes" are doable with pow (e.g. see how trivial it is to make low-difficulty pow proofs) | 13:38 |
| ayn1k | pow proofs is redundant but anyway, who said low-difficulty | 13:39 |
| ayn1k | reddit as a centralized service can vary the hashing algorithm parameters quite fast and prevent optimizations | 13:41 |
| jojva_ | what the hell is that? https://github.com/kanzure/streak | 13:41 |
| kanzure | jojva_: i think https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer is more interesting | 13:45 |
| ayn1k | looks like a dead man switch | 13:46 |
| coinoperated | bramc a certain fixed component of u/dvote probability on reddit (in anything bitcoin related) is based on whether your post could be construed (if grossly inapplicably) as being on one side or the other of the block size issue. Just disregard. | 13:47 |
| jojva_ | kanzure: that's beautifuk | 13:47 |
| jojva_ | s/beautifuk/beautiful | 13:48 |
| coinoperated | If you like chocolate ice cream, don't say so unless you're sure someone from the "wrong" side of that debate doesn't also like it | 13:49 |
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| bramc | This is very frustrating: https://medium.com/@sleevi_/a-history-of-hard-choices-c1e1cc9bb089#.ws4sf8zwp | 13:54 |
| bramc | There's this big point which people at the standards bodies seem to just plain not understand, which is that the current attacks on sha1 put it in danger of *collision* attacks, where the relevant attack for browsers is *reversal* | 13:55 |
| bramc | Those are from completely different galaxies in terms of difficulty. It saddens me that there's no discussion of sha3 though, apparently that standard has mostly failed? | 13:56 |
| gwillen | bramc: well, the usual cryptographic safety rule, in my understanding, is that once your primitive is a little bit compromised, you start moving off it, even if it's probably still fine, because cryptanalysis only moves one way | 14:02 |
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| phantomcircuit | bramc, uh collision is sufficient to cause big problems | 14:04 |
| bramc | gwillen, True, although in this case there's coherent practical reason for foot-dragging | 14:06 |
| bramc | phantomcircuit, What are the relevant collision-based attacks? I'm not asking this sarcastically. | 14:06 |
| gwillen | also phantomcircuit makes a good point, collision is enough to create fraudulent certificates | 14:06 |
| gwillen | all you have to do is generate two colliding certs, one valid, one invalid | 14:06 |
| gwillen | and then you have a signature good for the invalid one | 14:07 |
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| bramc | It boils down to whether the certificate is generated by the CA or whoever it's being given to. If CAs do the writing of certs, or at least put a bunch of random garbage at the front, then I think it's reversals which are relevant. | 14:08 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, sure but they dont do that in practice | 14:09 |
| gwillen | the random garbage trick is not a general solution to collision attacks, it only works against a specific type, afaik | 14:09 |
| gwillen | although that may be the only type currently practical, I don't know | 14:09 |
| phantomcircuit | the ca extracts the public key from the crl and then produces an entirely predictable certificate from that | 14:09 |
| phantomcircuit | gwillen, it's usually a reasonable way to shift from preimage to second preimage which is much much harder | 14:09 |
| bramc | phantomcircuit, *sigh* I think that article I linked says things which amount to 'Microsoft said to put a few bytes of random garbage at the top but not all CAs are doing it' | 14:10 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, iirc the md5 intermediate cert was generated using a preimage attack by messing with the subdomain the cert was for | 14:10 |
| bramc | If the certificate is entirely predictable then you can do a birthday attack on it. If it isn't then you're stuck with reversals. | 14:12 |
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| * zookolaptop looks at https://www.docdroid.net/mR3fUNS/paper.pdf.html | 14:27 | |
| zookolaptop | I wish whoever wrote that had used proper citations. | 14:29 |
| gwillen | I feel like I should ignore this paper just to avoid encouraging people to publish further under that name :-P | 14:29 |
| gwillen | it's a bizzare sort of self-promotion | 14:30 |
| zookolaptop | Then it would be obvious to all readers that when they wrote "Weierstrass" they meant "Winternitz", for starters. | 14:30 |
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| zookolaptop | Now there will be a little mini-generation of people who've heard of Winternitz, but since they know it under the wrong name they won't be able to look it up in the literature... | 14:30 |
| gwillen | heh | 14:32 |
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| tulip | "reddit as a centralized service can vary the hashing algorithm parameters quite fast and prevent optimizations" | 14:52 |
| tulip | ayn1k: just in general, proof of work is broken when used in isolation. no matter the configuration there's none which has a usable end experience for real users, and actually provide any resistance to a person with a botnet. | 14:54 |
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| tulip | you made your proof of work take 10 minutes to create a reddit post? well that's completely unacceptable for an end user, yet someone with a botnet can blast out tens of thousands of messages an hour. changing the system doesn't prevent that. | 14:56 |
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| ayn1k | tulip: it should be combined with interaction speed limits, per subreddit and user, for voting and posting | 15:30 |
| tulip | if you're using metrics like that the proof of work doesn't do anything but annoy your users. | 15:31 |
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| ayn1k | if many posts are created per minute in the same subreddit then they start with a lower score, if a user receives many votes per minute then the amount of karma he receives/loses is of lower value | 15:31 |
| tulip | so anybody wanting to warp the score just does it slowly? | 15:32 |
| ayn1k | if you post slowly your posts start with a higher score | 15:33 |
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| ayn1k | pow sets a cost for sybil attacks while degradation on speed prevents brigading | 15:36 |
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| bramc | The applicable proof of 'work' to reddit is captchas | 15:46 |
| kanzure | captchas are trivially solved by machines and also by services like deathbycaptcha (captcha solving api that uses outsourcing) | 15:46 |
| bramc | I didn't say they're much better | 15:47 |
| ayn1k | also captchas can't be tuned for difficulty (or at least not very smooth) | 15:52 |
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| bramc | phantomcircuit, I'm not going to get 100% code coverage of every branch where an integrity check fails in my tests. I hope you understand. | 16:17 |
| bramc | Done rewriting get_root(). That was only 80 lines of code for today. Time to call it a day. | 16:18 |
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| kanzure | some commentary about fraud proofs and non-fraud proofs of correctness and segwit https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-core-dev/2015-12-28/?msg=56907496&page=2 | 16:30 |
| kanzure | aww bramc already left | 16:30 |
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| brg444 | https://21.co/apidocs/21-lib-blockchain/ | 17:24 |
| brg444 | 21 starting to release doc | 17:24 |
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| phantomcircuit | petertodd, i hadn't seen that before, it's a strong point | 17:57 |
| phantomcircuit | (from the logs kanzure posted) | 17:57 |
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| bramc | kanzure, A fascinating thing about ZK is that it allows for very compact and quick to check proofs of non-fraud. That's all academic for the time being though. Right now the relevant thing for what I'm working on is compact proofs of inclusion and exclusion for the set. | 18:02 |
| bramc | And there's always the problem of invalidity that something can be technically valid but no longer because some of the data it refers to has become lost forever | 18:03 |
| kanzure | the conversation in those logs was because of a proposal by petertodd to make a small change to make some of those proofs easier in the near future | 18:03 |
| kanzure | you probably did not see his email about this topic, let me dig up a link | 18:03 |
| bramc | In sipa's segwit design proofs of fraud of fees are much simpler because each node in the tree includes a fee amount | 18:04 |
| kanzure | weird, i can't find the email. | 18:05 |
| kanzure | ah, it's this one: http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/012103.html | 18:06 |
| kanzure | i guess skip to the end section about proofs | 18:06 |
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| kanzure | fraud proof stuff was also recently mentioned by jl2012 and others in http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011935.html and http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011961.html | 18:08 |
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| bramc | kanzure, Oh yes I saw that. I don't like it as a solution. It adds a bunch of technical gunk which may not work so well to try and disincentivize validationless mining, when what's really needed is a bunch of work to remove the disincentives from validation, mostly around latency and validation time. Those are things we're working on already. | 18:09 |
| bramc | In fact it may make validation time worse. Either the re-hashing is of just the witness root, which is a trivial thing to communicate without also sending the complete set of witness data, or you have to hash over all the witness data, which obviously increases latency and costs of validation, or you check a sample of witness data, which sort of works but yech. | 18:13 |
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| kanzure | psztorc: i am wondering if you could elaboate on "In a complex system, it is logically defensible to say “I don’t know what the rule is for, but we should keep it right where it is anyway.” In fact, civilization practically depends on this (namely, our laws)." | 19:09 |
| kanzure | perhaps with something other than laws | 19:09 |
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| petertodd | bramc: why do you think it's possible to reduce latency? no-one has ever come up with a way to reduce worst-case bandwidth driven latency with anything similar to the current design of bitcoin | 20:40 |
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| petertodd | bramc: equally, validation driven latency is mostly a non-issue - validation is parallelizable fairly easy, and there's nothing wrong with propagating non-validated data | 20:42 |
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| bramc | petertodd, The main thing necessary for reducing latency (and by this I mean making miners able to ensure that their blocks don't get orphaned) is for there to be ways to make sure that a block is only a tiny marginal amount of data on top of what's already widely propagated. Weak blocks basically fix that problem. | 20:58 |
| petertodd | bramc: weak blocks are an average case fix, not a worst-case fix, and they probably disadvantage smaller miners too | 20:59 |
| bramc | petertodd, Huh? In the 'aggressive' case, a weak block only has a 'hard' dependency on a previous weak block's 'weak' reference, so the amount of data needed to propagate it is less than 1k | 21:02 |
| bramc | I mean, a successful block only has those dependencies. | 21:02 |
| petertodd | bramc: remember that broadcasting weak blocks is optional | 21:03 |
| petertodd | bramc: you find the most blocks relative to your competitors if less than 100% of the hashing power receives your block in time, with the threshold being at about 33% | 21:03 |
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| bramc | petertodd, That's an unfortunate problem which I don't have any good answers to. | 21:05 |
| petertodd | bramc: the best answer I have is keep the blocksize small enough that it's not a significant problem - that's just a hard constraint on our design until we come up with better protocols that actually fix it | 21:05 |
| bramc | How is that a fix if weak blocks aren't? | 21:06 |
| petertodd | bramc: weak blocks are a perfectly good average case optimization, but they can't be used to justify a blocksize increase | 21:08 |
| bramc | petertodd, I'm not advocating a blocksize increase. Well, not past the < 2x from segwit | 21:09 |
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| petertodd | bramc: sure - so you agree with me that weak blocks aren't a worst-case optimization? | 21:10 |
| petertodd | bramc: er, wordedbetter, you agree with me that weak blocks don't improve worst-case, non-cooperating, block propagation? | 21:11 |
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| bramc | Define 'non-cooperating' | 21:11 |
| petertodd | bramc: e.g. if I decide I'll optimize for less than 100% propagation | 21:11 |
| bramc | petertodd, If you want to optimize for less than 100% propagation you can do that just by waiting on sending out the block you found. | 21:13 |
| petertodd | bramc: I'm better off doing it by selectively not propagating, to push out my highest latency competitors - just waiting harms them all equally, which isn't as useful | 21:15 |
| petertodd | bramc: equally, if I'm just being lazy, and my weak block setup isn't working well for whatever reason | 21:15 |
| bramc | petertodd, I'm hazy on the argument here. You seem to be saying that if there are weak blocks it's worthwile for one miner to make their blocks go out as slow as possible. Won't that just increase their own orphan rate and hurt them? | 21:16 |
| petertodd | bramc: see http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg03200.html | 21:17 |
| petertodd | bramc: you just need to get your blocks to >29.2% of hashing power to optimize ratio of blocks you find vs. blocks they find | 21:18 |
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| bramc | petertodd, I heard this argument before but haven't fully grokked it yet. If I assume what you say is true, then the problem is that each miner is under some scenarios incented to make their blocks go out slower, and the protocol's job is to make them go out fast even when whoever minted the block is trying to make it go out slow? | 21:19 |
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| petertodd | bramc: exactly, | 21:20 |
| petertodd | bramc: really, we need to be in a situation where once you broadcast your block to anyone at all, it's guaranteed to get to everyone in negligable time | 21:22 |
| bramc | The problems with quadratic hashing on single large transactions are also a big deal in that case | 21:23 |
| petertodd | bramc: of course it is, fortunately fixing that is fairly uncontroversial - why I haven't (publicly) madea big deal about it | 21:23 |
| petertodd | bramc: it's the bandwidth cost that is the fundemental problem | 21:24 |
| bramc | What is the uncontroversial fix to the quadratic hashing problem? | 21:24 |
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| petertodd | bramc: limiting tx size isn't such a big deal | 21:25 |
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| petertodd | bramc: equally, can change the sighash algorithm | 21:25 |
| bramc | Allowing transactions to be included in a block in an arbitrary order is also a serious issue. There's a fair amount of meaningless information encoded in there which has to be broadcast | 21:26 |
| petertodd | bramc: for instance, can make CHECKSIG error out if tx size >100KB, and then soft-fork in a better CHECKSIG later that doesn't havethe issue | 21:26 |
| petertodd | bramc: why is order relevant to worstcase? | 21:27 |
| bramc | Come to think of it, the attack here is that miner might fill their block with garbage transactions which nobody has seen before. Since transaction fees are currently de minimis they wouldn't be losing out on anything that way | 21:28 |
| kanzure | btw i'm not sure petertodd has context about your merkle tree stuff | 21:28 |
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| kanzure | (well, he has context, but probably not knowledge of your details in particular) | 21:28 |
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| bramc | kanzure, I don't think it matters for what we're discussing now | 21:29 |
| bramc | Historically miners have been worried about the opposite problem: They freak out when their blocks get orphaned, and they've done everything in their power to avoid that, including publishing empty transactions | 21:30 |
| petertodd | bramc: yes, that's exactly what the attack is - I've been saying that for literally years now :) | 21:32 |
| petertodd | bramc: although,it's even worse because this *effect* can happen without actual malice | 21:32 |
| petertodd | bramc: miners worry about the opposite because currently they're not acting entirely economically rationally | 21:33 |
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| petertodd | bramc: I mean, heck, miners in china even go as far as to loan hashing power to each other w/o payment so... | 21:33 |
| tulip | it's curious how trusty mining has become, people actually get concerned when there's blocks mined which don't have a publicly visible claim in the coinbase transaction as to who mined it. | 21:35 |
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| bramc | petertodd, I think your analysis is correct but it doesn't carry over to when there are only intermittent potential orphans, it has to be a sustained thing. I'll work on it later when I'm more awake and present when I think I have a coherent argument though. | 21:37 |
| petertodd | bramc: why does intermittancy change the analysis? | 21:37 |
| tulip | it's probably ingrained enough that if anybody did mine blocks specifically defrauding other people, the blame would be instantly attributed to whoever was supposed to have mined it. | 21:37 |
| petertodd | tulip: if I had hashing power, I'd put someone else's pool in my coinbase and mine RBF :) | 21:38 |
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| coinoperated | there was a post on reddit a week ago by (someone who claimed to be) a large scale miner, to the effect that they all talk to one another these days and don't undertake any significant decisions individually without running the idea past the rest of the G-9 | 21:39 |
| bramc | petertodd, Because your potential for slowing everybody down is much when it's intermittent. I should be able to support this argument with some simple math though, so I'll hold off on making a strong claim until I work out the details. I'm a little wiped from doing too much coding at this point today so I'll sleep on it and slog through everything later. | 21:39 |
| petertodd | coinoperated: that's probably correct, although remember that's a very situationally dependent phenomenomin... | 21:39 |
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| petertodd | bramc: cool, looking forward to hearing about it | 21:40 |
| tulip | wonder what would happen if large pools broke that cartel and started not re-using addresses. | 21:40 |
| bramc | petertodd, I'll let you know whatever the expanded model indicates | 21:40 |
| bramc | There's a weird thing about distribution of mining power. If you have a small number of miners they can have a gentleman's agreement not to try to re-mine bogon fees. With very distributed mining power attempts to re-mine bogon will fail in practice. Somewhere in the middle is a level of distribution where bogon fees make the system melt. | 21:42 |
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