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| tulip | jl2012: I've noticed a lot more connection churning recently, but I assumed it was my poor connection rather than anything had changed in 0.12. | 01:38 |
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| maaku | phantomcircuit: as far as I can tell any kind of txout commitments gain easier SPV wallet sync, but it's not obvious to me that is worth the cost | 01:44 |
| maaku | what would be worth the cost, and was the prime justification I saw, was fraud proofs. but backrefs get you that | 01:45 |
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| jl2012 | tulip: thanks but that's not related. I'm in the SW-testnet | 02:54 |
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| yosso | Must a lighning node be a full bitcoinnode? | 03:14 |
| yosso | bitcoin node | 03:15 |
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| stonecoldpat | yosso: to the best of my just after holidays knowledge, not necessarily. Assuming you can trust the deposit transaction is in the blockchain (which spv allows you), then all you need to record are transactions inside your channel. Although you do need to maintain good network activity to listen for earlier invalidated transactions being broadcasted (i think their called breach transactions?) | 03:21 |
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| aj | yosso: i think all the initial implementations will assume you're also running a full bitcoin node though | 03:25 |
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| stonecoldpat | what i mean by maintaining good network connections - every time you do a payment in the channel, both parties create a new pair of "Revocable Commitment Transactions" and invalidate the previous pair. To invalidate the previous pair, you send the counter party a "Breach Remedy Transaction". So as a participant, you need to listen to the network to ensure a previously revoked transaction has not been broadcast to the netw | 03:27 |
| aj | stonecoldpat: not quite -- if someone *publishes* one of the outdated commitment transactions, the other person publishes a "breach remedy transaction" to the blockchain to claim all the funds | 03:37 |
| aj | stonecoldpat: ie, you don't send it to your counterparty, you send it to the blockchain | 03:37 |
| stonecoldpat | aj: sorry thats what i ment, (to set up the breanch remedy transaction requires you to sign it and send to counter party) and then yeah you broadcast it to the network | 03:40 |
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| yosso | I see. Is it realistic then to assume mobile ligthning nodes? | 04:07 |
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| kanzure | "There is an “N depth” idea in BU, where nodes switch from regarding one chain as valid to another chain, if the chain with larger blocks has a lead of N blocks." | 06:22 |
| kanzure | this seems to be impossible when the block sizes are beyond bandwidth limits | 06:22 |
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| kanzure | "people seem to assume that miners would all the sudden just make bigger blocks simply because they can - as if they never could" | 06:35 |
| kanzure | this is false. people suggest that an adversary will be capable of making bigger blocks, not that non-adversarial miners wouldn't. also, certain adversaries only attack when opportunity arises, such as big blocks, or other vulnerabilities. | 06:36 |
| kanzure | "and, of course, as we all know, they ought to find it more profitable to not do such attack. etc. Basically, these attacks have nothing to do with BU because BU sets a limit just as hard as core's current 1mb," | 06:36 |
| kanzure | this reasoning also doesn't make sense- if it has something to do with bitcoin, then it's not going to have nothing to do with BU :-) | 06:36 |
| kanzure | "we can assume that 51% of them will be honest (if we don't make such assumption then bitcoin does not work)." | 06:39 |
| kanzure | that's really only true for spv mode | 06:39 |
| kanzure | "The miners therefore will set the limit ... hence BU provides a defence to the criticisms made against automatic algorithmic change." | 06:44 |
| alpalp | kanzure: why spend so much time analyzing what is essentially flat earthers? | 06:44 |
| instagibbs | alpalp, +1 . I'd rather debate PoS :P | 06:44 |
| kanzure | criticism of bip100 was often something like "we already know that miners can agree on big block increases, that's not useful for bitcoin" | 06:45 |
| kanzure | so... it is not a defense. | 06:45 |
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| alpalp | defense from what? A reddit army who wants a charismatic leader to help them lose tens of dollars? | 06:46 |
| kanzure | alpalp: not helpful, even if you're correct that they are sockpuppets. | 06:48 |
| alpalp | kanzure: even if not sockpuppets - is there any chance at all anyone with anything at stake will switch to a coin with no development team and hand waving? If so, maybe they deserve to lose their money. | 06:48 |
| alpalp | IMO the goal of the project is just meant to distract useful work | 06:49 |
| alpalp | I dont think a huge number of accounts are sockpuppets, just naive users with small stakes and lots of free time. Voting def seems like socks | 06:51 |
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| maaku | yosso: lightning edge nodes don't need to be online 24/7 | 06:59 |
| maaku | and there are many use cases where delayed payments are ok, in which case they could still be routed through so long as the mobile device connects at least once a day or so | 07:00 |
| maaku | and with full lightning (CSV + segwit) you can outsource the blockchain watching to anybody else | 07:01 |
| maaku | so you don't have to be online to make sure your coins are safe, you just have to be online to be routed through | 07:01 |
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| yosso | maaku: thanks, wasn´t the distinction between edge nodes and hubs replaced with direct pathes? Or am I confusing something? | 07:10 |
| maaku | yosso: i prefer not to call routable nodes hubs | 07:10 |
| maaku | it confuses things | 07:10 |
| maaku | otherwise can you rephrase? I'm not sure what you mean | 07:11 |
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| yosso | assuming the network is better of if all nodes are routable as the funds in those channels will be avaiable, is it resonable to assume such nodes running on mobiles? | 07:13 |
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| instagibbs | yosso, if you didn't know there is #lightning-dev | 07:16 |
| yosso | I didnt, thanks | 07:16 |
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| maaku | yosso: sure, why not? | 07:26 |
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| maaku | you can get push notification of a transaction in progress, and sign on the device | 07:27 |
| maaku | that said, it may be tricky and/or difficult to pull off, so it's more of a target to work towards | 07:28 |
| yosso | Wasn´t sure if SPV node could be a routable lighning node. Happy to hear it is. I think its important as avalable routs are important for reducing the amounts that must be ¨frozen¨ in channels. | 07:30 |
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| alpalp | yosso: all thats needed is the ability to sign and get notifications for requests to sign, and to store enough info to submit recovery transactions after protocol violations. | 07:31 |
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| yosso | alpalp: thanks, i get it now | 07:34 |
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| Taek | "we can assume that 51% of them will be honest (if we don't make such assumption then bitcoin does not work)." ===> This is a pretty common mistake. It's a very weak assumption. Much stronger to assume that 51%+ are rationally motivated, and then prove that whatever system is incentive-compatible. That's approx. what Bitcoin is, though lots of people would question whether Bitcoin was truly incentive-compatible | 08:43 |
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| alpalp | Taek: small nitpick, you can be rationally motivated but have incentives that make the cost of attacking worth it - example - taking out a large short position before attack. Though that likely falls under your definition of incentive-compatible | 09:19 |
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| kanzure | "Verifiable ASICs" http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1243.pdf | 10:05 |
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| kanzure | async secure multiparty computation http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1238.pdf (i thought we had some models that required only 1 honest participate, not 2/3rds?) | 10:07 |
| nsh | (no) | 10:13 |
| kanzure | "A guide to fully homomorphic encryption" http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1192.pdf | 10:14 |
| nsh | there are models that work with honest majority, more constrained models that work with smaller honest cohorts. i don't think there exists a model of SMC that works with a single honest party | 10:15 |
| nsh | i would imagine that would make things very difficult indeed | 10:15 |
| nsh | this might be the closest: https://mpclounge.wordpress.com/2014/09/09/publicly-auditable-secure-multiparty-computation/ | 10:16 |
| nsh | -- | 10:16 |
| nsh | In multi-party computation a set of $n$ players wants to compute a function $y=f$ on inputs $x_1, …, x_n$ where each input $x_i$ is private information to player $i$. Security in this setting means that each player essentially learns *Nothing* new other then the result $y$. | 10:16 |
| nsh | In the above definition the meaning of security holds if at least one player is still honest (or acting non-corrupt). In this presentation the notion and meaning of security is extended to include the setting where all parties are corrupted however leaving an auditable transcript of the computation allowing third-party observers to audit the computation afterwards. Naturally the transcript is public | 10:16 |
| nsh | information and the above security definition must still hold in the presents of a single honest party. | 10:16 |
| nsh | -- | 10:16 |
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| kanzure | "libgroupsig: An extensible C library for group signatures" http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1146.pdf | 10:25 |
| kanzure | https://bitbucket.org/jdiazvico/libgroupsig/src | 10:26 |
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| kanzure | "Witness signatures and non-malleable multi-prover zero-knowledge proofs" http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1095.pdf | 10:34 |
| kanzure | .. but requires hardware token model, and claims that doing it without tamper-proof hardware tokens is impossible if BPP != NP | 10:35 |
| kanzure | "Motivated by the goal of removing trusted setup assumptions from cryptography, we introduce the notion of witness signatures. This primitive allows any party with a valid witness to an NP statement to sign a message on behalf of that statement. We also require these signatures to be unforgeable: that is, producing a signature on a new message (even given several message, signature pairs) should be as hard as computing a witness to the ... | 10:37 |
| kanzure | ... NP statement itself. Witness signatures are closely related to previously well-studied notions such as non-malleable non-interactive zero knowledge arguments, and signatures of knowledge." | 10:37 |
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| kanzure | "How to use SNARKs in universally composable protocols" http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1093.pdf | 10:39 |
| kanzure | http://oblivm.com/publications.html and bucket oram http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1065.pdf | 10:42 |
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| kanzure | "Cryptographic assumptions: a position paper" http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/907.pdf (goldwasser stuff) | 11:11 |
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| freekevin | hi | 13:42 |
| freekevin | why does the blockchain need a sidechain? | 13:42 |
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| fluffypony | freekevin: #bitcoin | 13:45 |
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| JackH | kanzure, do you have the montreal video where moxiebox is getting discussed? | 14:52 |
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| Luke-Jr | fluffypony: I think he got banned there a day or so ago :p | 16:03 |
| Luke-Jr | maybe I'm thinking of someone else though | 16:03 |
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| alpalp | What is the bare minimum you would consider a full node? forwarding of blocks/transactions with validation? | 16:06 |
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| kanzure | .g site:diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin moxiebox | 16:49 |
| yoleaux | No results found. | 16:49 |
| kanzure | JackH: nope | 16:49 |
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| dcousens | alpalp: probably just forwarding of blocks and validation | 17:21 |
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| dcousens | [4h[P | 17:25 |
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| bramc | Does anybody know if katu did that proof of space write-up? | 18:11 |
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| kanzure | re: bip-johnjegutanis-efficient-block-relay-format ( https://gist.github.com/erasmospunk/23040383b7620b525df0 ) the argument for smaller blocks is not just bitcoin p2p consensus latency. weak blocks are still useful even if they don't resolve a big vs small block question. | 18:25 |
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| dcousens | if I get a SCRIPT_ERR_UNKNOWN_ERROR from my tx | 19:44 |
| dcousens | what might cause that? (so far, only place I see it gets set is from an exception being thrown in EvalScript, otherwise somethign else is always set) | 19:45 |
| dcousens | (its also the default, but, it should be safe to assume EvalScript is called at least once) | 19:45 |
| dcousens | eh, i'll post this to core-dev actually | 19:47 |
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| tulip | alpalp: no. a "full node" is talking about "fully validating", nothing about a node needs to have any contact with the Bitcoin P2P network. you can make one which syncs from binaries posted on Reddit if you really wanted to. it would still be fully validating. Bitcoin Core can run in "blocks only" mode which doesn't relay transactions, but it still fully validates everything. | 21:13 |
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| dcousens | In regards to SegWit, has anyone thought about how it might aid an authority perform a soft-fork for backdooring scriptSigs for transactions? This is a late-afternoon-beer thought | 21:50 |
| dcousens | Though I guess its no different than before with OP codes, and miners would still have to mine it, so nvm | 21:51 |
| andytoshi | dcousens: "perform a soft-fork" by coercing miners into censorship? | 21:51 |
| dcousens | yeah | 21:51 |
| dcousens | but not censorship, but straight up allowing someone else to spend? | 21:52 |
| andytoshi | segwit does not make that any more or less possible | 21:55 |
| andytoshi | actually creating invalid transactions (and assuming people won't check the sigs) would be a hardfork to all fully validating nodes | 21:55 |
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| dcousens | yeah, you could do what i'm thinking of now with just a OP_NOP code | 21:57 |
| dcousens | well actually, no | 21:58 |
| dcousens | will continue discussion with you privately until its a coherent thought ;) | 21:58 |
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| dcousens | thanks for clearing that up andytoshi, tl;dr was my confusion around how segwit-only hard-forks would work :) | 22:13 |
| andytoshi | awesome :) | 22:14 |
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| --- Log closed Mon Jan 04 00:00:55 2016 | ||
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