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| CiPi | This channel is logged. | 05:29 |
|---|---|---|
| CiPi | Goat damn it...NSA | 05:29 |
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| null_radix | does anyone know of a hierarchical deterministic key scheme that allow for a way to verify that public keys were generated from a root key. Given that the verifier only know the root public key? | 06:42 |
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| MRL-Relay | [shen] null_radix - maybe something like (x_n, P_n) then G_{n+1} = hash(P_n), (x_{n+1}, P_{n+1}) = (x_n , x_n G_{n+1}), and at each step provide a signature w'r't new basepoint (haven't thought this through) | 06:54 |
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| bsm117532 | The minimum difficulty target for a Braid is set by the existence of graph cuts (beads/blocks with no siblings). You need a span between two graph cuts to allocate coins. So the number of graph cuts should be the same as the high-difficulty (bitcoin) target difficulty. This is controlled by a quantity (network size)/(minimum difficulty) where the network size is measured in seconds. | 07:23 |
| bsm117532 | network size = mean time to get a bead to all nodes. | 07:25 |
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| Taek | I don't know if this will go anywhere, but I like the idea of transaction-enforced preconsensus | 08:26 |
| Taek | basically, you have some method for arriving at preconsensus related to weak blocks, which allows the network to basically agree in advance what stuff should look like | 08:26 |
| Taek | then you have transactions commit to that, meaning a miner that deviates will have to lose the fees on all potential transactions | 08:27 |
| Taek | so the miners have a tangible financial incentive to stick to the preconsensus | 08:27 |
| Taek | but also a DoS vector where they can invalidate a whole set of transactions just by not following preconsensus | 08:28 |
| Taek | though that's not to bad, it's easy enough for the full nodes to remake and resubmit the transactions | 08:28 |
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| Taek | <PeterR> Jannes: using estimates for average network latency and propagation impedance from G. Andrew Stone's recent paper, orphan rate would be ~20% with 8 MB blocks. | 08:40 |
| Taek | 20% is completely unviable for small miners | 08:41 |
| Taek | a miner with 20% of the hashpower is going to have an orphan rate of 16%, compared to an orphan rate of 20% for the small miners | 08:41 |
| bsm117532 | Consensus is consensus. It seems wrong to me to have almost-consensus, pre-consensus, and other concepts. It seems pretty similar to the discussion on Ethereum's Casper: they require consensus on bonded validators in order to have consensus on blocks. This should all be reducible to a single sense of "consensus" without dividing it into pieces. | 08:43 |
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| Taek | preconsensus allows you to have softer assumptions, meaning you can have more powerful protocols | 08:44 |
| Taek | for example, you can have conflicting transactions in preconsensus | 08:45 |
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| bsm117532 | Apropos: https://twitter.com/yaoeo/status/685098031927136257 | 08:45 |
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| bsm117532 | Taek: Then you don't have consensus at all, so I'm confused what the point is. | 08:46 |
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| bsm117532 | Taek: It seems to me that weak blocks are not about consensus, but about keeping mempools synchronized and optimizing block propagation. | 08:53 |
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| Taek | keeping mempools synchronized is preconsensus | 08:55 |
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| stevenroose | hi, what is the state of Maxwell's POLYSIG multisig scheme? Has anyone been working on an implementation?" | 08:57 |
| bsm117532 | Aren't you worried that a double-spender could use that mechanism to select which of his two double-spends gets committed? | 08:57 |
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| Taek | bsm117532: that's why you don't rely on preconsensus for confirmation of a transaction's validity. It's okay if a double-spender can manipulate the preconsensus because nobody should be expecting things to be resolved | 09:17 |
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| Taek | so, you have weak blocks that commit to the most recent large block. You use these weak blocks to build a 'strong' mempool that decides what transactions (according to an unenforced preconsensus) are eligable for the next block, and then you have a canonical way to pick between the eligable transactions, and a canonical ordering, which means you can predict the merkle root knowing only the set of weak blocks | 09:19 |
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| bsm117532 | I'm leaning stronger and stronger to the opinion that we should remove free p2p relay of transactions. All this complication comes from managing that. If everything were mined, we have a just a single data structure to manage, rather than all these layers. | 09:20 |
| Taek | furthermore, you only select weak blocks that commit to strong blocks with 2 confirmations, meaning someone adding new weak blocks to that set is sacrificing mining dollars | 09:20 |
| Taek | assuming that everyone has seen all the weak blocks, everyone knows the ordained merkle root of the next block | 09:20 |
| Taek | and any manipulations would be expensive | 09:21 |
| Taek | that allows new transactions to commit to the preconsensus, stating that they and their fees aren't valid unless there is a block following the preconsensus | 09:21 |
| Taek | which incentivizes people to follow the preconsensus | 09:22 |
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| Taek | =/ it's too convoluted | 09:23 |
| Taek | also, if a miner breaks preconsensus, the transaction submitters are likely to just rebuild and resubmit, meaning the miners aren't actually losing out on those fees | 09:23 |
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| bsm117532 | It's convoluted. :-/ | 09:23 |
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| MRL-Relay | [shen] stevenroose: Do you have a link to the polysig thing? I hadn't heard of it, but I included a multisig description based on the MG sigs in recent drafts of the ring ct stuff and am wondering if it's similar based on what I could find from here: https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/search/?q=polysig | 09:32 |
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| CiPi | hello lizards | 09:54 |
| CiPi | I mean, wizards | 09:54 |
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| Taek | shen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYQ-3VvNCHE - it's like 40 minutes in or something | 10:18 |
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| MRL-Relay | [shen] Taek thx, will watch | 10:18 |
| Taek | related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcQLWeFmpYg | 10:19 |
| kanzure | .title | 10:19 |
| yoleaux | SF Bitcoin Devs Seminar: Key Tree Signatures - YouTube | 10:19 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYQ-3VvNCHE | 10:19 |
| yoleaux | SF Bitcoin Devs Seminar: A Deep Dive with Bitcoin Core Developer Greg Maxwell - YouTube | 10:19 |
| stevenroose | MRL-Relay: here he describes several multisig schemes, one of them being POLYSIG https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYQ-3VvNCHE&feature=youtu.be&t=1313 | 10:20 |
| kanzure | hm i don't have that one typed. | 10:20 |
| kanzure | oh yes i do | 10:20 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/gmaxwell-bitcoin-selection-cryptography/ | 10:21 |
| kanzure | you linked to the other youtube video version of that. | 10:21 |
| kanzure | i was expecting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs9lJTRZCDc | 10:21 |
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| MRL-Relay | [shen] stevenroose, thx | 10:21 |
| stevenroose | POLYSIG is just the term he coined in that talk, it might be called differently by now | 10:22 |
| stevenroose | it just seemed like the better alternative and its weird that almost a year has passed without hearing from it again | 10:22 |
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| MRL-Relay | [shen] stevenroose, ah found it, that's interesting, but definitely different than the one I wrote up, which, if you are interested is in sec 4.4 here: https://www.overleaf.com/read/qzgytbyyxvyf | 10:27 |
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| kanzure | win 97 | 10:39 |
| kanzure | ... oops. | 10:39 |
| merlincorey | kanzure: windows 95 or windows 98 buddy | 10:39 |
| merlincorey | kanzure: no win 97 :P | 10:40 |
| * merlincorey sees himself out now, following bad joke | 10:40 | |
| arubi | irc channels are the best wordlists :) | 10:40 |
| stevenroose | MRL-Relay: t of m of n? | 10:41 |
| MRL-Relay | [shen] yeah so t of m is the multisig part, and then the multisiggers are hidden in m of n | 10:41 |
| stevenroose | what's n if t is the threshold and m the participants? | 10:41 |
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| stevenroose | ah | 10:41 |
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| jannes | Taek: thx, I guess I missed PeterR. Googling for that paper leads me to BU and gives me headaches. I'll take your word for it. 20% sounds absolutely killing for decentralization. | 12:58 |
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| bitcoin-wizards5 | Jannes: http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/downloads/subchains.pdf | 13:29 |
| bitcoin-wizards5 | Section 6 | 13:30 |
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| brg444 | heh | 13:33 |
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| kanzure | "Merkle-Damgard revisited: how to construct a hash function" https://www.cs.nyu.edu/~puniya/papers/merkle.pdf | 15:11 |
| kanzure | "Open problems in hash function security" https://securewww.esat.kuleuven.be/cosic/publications/article-2547.pdf | 15:19 |
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| AdrianG | why are ring-signature schemes with random oracles not secure in practise ? | 20:59 |
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| --- Log closed Fri Jan 08 00:00:59 2016 | ||
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