2016-01-07.log

--- Log opened Thu Jan 07 00:00:58 2016
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CiPiThis channel is logged.05:29
CiPiGoat damn it...NSA05:29
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null_radixdoes anyone know of a hierarchical deterministic key scheme that allow for a way to verify that public keys were generated from a root key. Given that the verifier only know the root public key?06:42
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MRL-Relay[shen] null_radix - maybe something like (x_n, P_n) then G_{n+1} = hash(P_n), (x_{n+1}, P_{n+1}) = (x_n , x_n G_{n+1}), and at each step provide a signature w'r't new basepoint (haven't thought this through)06:54
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bsm117532The minimum difficulty target for a Braid is set by the existence of graph cuts (beads/blocks with no siblings). You need a span between two graph cuts to allocate coins.  So the number of graph cuts should be the same as the high-difficulty (bitcoin) target difficulty.  This is controlled by a quantity (network size)/(minimum difficulty) where the network size is measured in seconds.07:23
bsm117532network size = mean time to get a bead to all nodes.07:25
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TaekI don't know if this will go anywhere, but I like the idea of transaction-enforced preconsensus08:26
Taekbasically, you have some method for arriving at preconsensus related to weak blocks, which allows the network to basically agree in advance what stuff should look like08:26
Taekthen you have transactions commit to that, meaning a miner that deviates will have to lose the fees on all potential transactions08:27
Taekso the miners have a tangible financial incentive to stick to the preconsensus08:27
Taekbut also a DoS vector where they can invalidate a whole set of transactions just by not following preconsensus08:28
Taekthough that's not to bad, it's easy enough for the full nodes to remake and resubmit the transactions08:28
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Taek<PeterR> Jannes: using estimates for average network latency and propagation impedance from G. Andrew Stone's recent paper, orphan rate would be ~20% with 8 MB blocks.08:40
Taek20% is completely unviable for small miners08:41
Taeka miner with 20% of the hashpower is going to have an orphan rate of 16%, compared to an orphan rate of 20% for the small miners08:41
bsm117532Consensus is consensus.  It seems wrong to me to have almost-consensus, pre-consensus, and other concepts.  It seems pretty similar to the discussion on Ethereum's Casper: they require consensus on bonded validators in order to have consensus on blocks. This should all be reducible to a single sense of "consensus" without dividing it into pieces.08:43
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Taekpreconsensus allows you to have softer assumptions, meaning you can have more powerful protocols08:44
Taekfor example, you can have conflicting transactions in preconsensus08:45
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bsm117532Apropos: https://twitter.com/yaoeo/status/68509803192713625708:45
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bsm117532Taek: Then you don't have consensus at all, so I'm confused what the point is.08:46
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bsm117532Taek: It seems to me that weak blocks are not about consensus, but about keeping mempools synchronized and optimizing block propagation.08:53
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Taekkeeping mempools synchronized is preconsensus08:55
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stevenroosehi, what is the state of Maxwell's POLYSIG multisig scheme? Has anyone been working on an implementation?"08:57
bsm117532Aren't you worried that a double-spender could use that mechanism to select which of his two double-spends gets committed?08:57
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Taekbsm117532: that's why you don't rely on preconsensus for confirmation of a transaction's validity. It's okay if a double-spender can manipulate the preconsensus because nobody should be expecting things to be resolved09:17
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Taekso, you have weak blocks that commit to the most recent large block. You use these weak blocks to build a 'strong' mempool that decides what transactions (according to an unenforced preconsensus) are eligable for the next block, and then you have a canonical way to pick between the eligable transactions, and a canonical ordering, which means you can predict the merkle root knowing only the set of weak blocks09:19
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bsm117532I'm leaning stronger and stronger to the opinion that we should remove free p2p relay of transactions.  All this complication comes from managing that. If everything were mined, we have a just a single data structure to manage, rather than all these layers.09:20
Taekfurthermore, you only select weak blocks that commit to strong blocks with 2 confirmations, meaning someone adding new weak blocks to that set is sacrificing mining dollars09:20
Taekassuming that everyone has seen all the weak blocks, everyone knows the ordained merkle root of the next block09:20
Taekand any manipulations would be expensive09:21
Taekthat allows new transactions to commit to the preconsensus, stating that they and their fees aren't valid unless there is a block following the preconsensus09:21
Taekwhich incentivizes people to follow the preconsensus09:22
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Taek=/ it's too convoluted09:23
Taekalso, if a miner breaks preconsensus, the transaction submitters are likely to just rebuild and resubmit, meaning the miners aren't actually losing out on those fees09:23
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bsm117532It's convoluted. :-/09:23
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MRL-Relay[shen] stevenroose: Do you have a link to the polysig thing? I hadn't heard of it, but I included a multisig description based on the MG sigs in recent drafts of the ring ct stuff and am wondering if it's similar based on what I could find from here: https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/search/?q=polysig09:32
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CiPihello lizards09:54
CiPiI mean, wizards09:54
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Taekshen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYQ-3VvNCHE - it's like 40 minutes in or something10:18
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MRL-Relay[shen] Taek thx, will watch10:18
Taekrelated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcQLWeFmpYg10:19
kanzure.title10:19
yoleauxSF Bitcoin Devs Seminar: Key Tree Signatures - YouTube10:19
kanzure.title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYQ-3VvNCHE10:19
yoleauxSF Bitcoin Devs Seminar: A Deep Dive with Bitcoin Core Developer Greg Maxwell - YouTube10:19
stevenrooseMRL-Relay: here he describes several multisig schemes, one of them being POLYSIG https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYQ-3VvNCHE&feature=youtu.be&t=131310:20
kanzurehm i don't have that one typed.10:20
kanzureoh yes i do10:20
kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/gmaxwell-bitcoin-selection-cryptography/10:21
kanzureyou linked to the other youtube video version of that.10:21
kanzurei was expecting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs9lJTRZCDc10:21
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MRL-Relay[shen] stevenroose, thx10:21
stevenroosePOLYSIG is just the term he coined in that talk, it might be called differently by now10:22
stevenrooseit just seemed like the better alternative and its weird that almost a year has passed without hearing from it again10:22
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MRL-Relay[shen] stevenroose, ah found it, that's interesting, but definitely different than the one I wrote up, which, if you are interested is in sec 4.4 here: https://www.overleaf.com/read/qzgytbyyxvyf10:27
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kanzurewin 9710:39
kanzure... oops.10:39
merlincoreykanzure: windows 95 or windows 98 buddy10:39
merlincoreykanzure: no win 97 :P10:40
* merlincorey sees himself out now, following bad joke10:40
arubiirc channels are the best wordlists :)10:40
stevenrooseMRL-Relay: t of m of n?10:41
MRL-Relay[shen] yeah so t of m is the multisig part, and then the multisiggers are hidden in m of n10:41
stevenroosewhat's n if t is the threshold and m the participants?10:41
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stevenrooseah10:41
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jannesTaek: thx, I guess I missed PeterR. Googling for that paper leads me to BU and gives me headaches. I'll take your word for it. 20% sounds absolutely killing for decentralization.12:58
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bitcoin-wizards5Jannes: http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/downloads/subchains.pdf13:29
bitcoin-wizards5Section 613:30
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brg444heh13:33
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kanzure"Merkle-Damgard revisited: how to construct a hash function" https://www.cs.nyu.edu/~puniya/papers/merkle.pdf15:11
kanzure"Open problems in hash function security" https://securewww.esat.kuleuven.be/cosic/publications/article-2547.pdf15:19
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AdrianGwhy are ring-signature schemes with random oracles not secure in practise ?20:59
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--- Log closed Fri Jan 08 00:00:59 2016

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