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| bsm117532 | There are two parts of Sybil resistance: identifying entities, and ensuring each entity is properly rate-limited. It's assumed each identified "entity" can't obtain additional identities for a Sybil attack. Rate-limiting is fairly easy -- block timestamps could be used to create "blockchain time" and each entity could skew its clock toward the network's global median time, and dump blocks in excess of the rate-limiting restriction. Difficulty | 06:03 |
|---|---|---|
| bsm117532 | PoW mixes these two concepts. PoS attempts to identify entities through stake or bonding deposits, so needs a separate rate limiting algorithm. (PoS needs reference to external value to work, however, or its consensus argument is circular) Central entity identification is of course possible ("Permissioned Distributed Ledgers"). | 06:04 |
| bsm117532 | Given that rate limiting seems easy, the remaining task is a distributed, Sybil-resistant mechanism to distribute identities (let's say they're keys for block-signing). | 06:04 |
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| kanzure | bsm117532: how is that any different from the "dynamic membership multiparty signature" concept? | 06:09 |
| bsm117532 | kanzure: It's not. It's identical. Just trying to noodle where Sybil resistance comes from. The DMMS concept doesn't specify who gets to make the signatures. | 06:09 |
| bsm117532 | A DMMS, by itself, is not automatically Sybil resistant. | 06:10 |
| kanzure | neither is bitcoin, above the difficulty threshold. | 06:11 |
| kanzure | (er, there are probably some additional parameters beyond just difficulty threshold, but w/e) | 06:11 |
| bsm117532 | Indeed. Bitcoin's difficulty target is a poor proxy for "number of participating entities". | 06:13 |
| kanzure | why does the number of participating entities matter? | 06:14 |
| bsm117532 | A Sybil attack is by definition the creation of a large number of fraudulent identities. | 06:14 |
| kanzure | bitcoin tries to fix this by not caring whether an identity is "fraudulent" | 06:15 |
| bsm117532 | Yes, which is why I call it a "poor" proxy for "number of participating entities". | 06:15 |
| bsm117532 | (At least from the perspective of a Sybil attack) | 06:16 |
| kanzure | in the absence of good-sounding metrics for decentralization, i suggest that a cost minimization trend would be a good thing to pursue | 06:17 |
| bsm117532 | From this perspective, bitcoin is outsourcing block creation to Sybil attackers (large mining pools). | 06:17 |
| bsm117532 | kanzure: can you elaborate on "cost minimization"? How does that come into a Sybil argument? | 06:17 |
| kanzure | bitcoin puts a floor on the cost of you getting tricked about consensus. the floor is in terms of proof-of-work, but other resource requirements do play a role (like validation requirements, bandwidth requirements, even for non-mining nodes). | 06:18 |
| stonecoldpat | bsm117532: PoW doesn't have a reputation system that can be sybilled? all that matters is hash power, regardless if its 1 or 1,000 people, the protocol doesn't necessarily care | 06:19 |
| stonecoldpat | which i think kanzure was alluding too when saying it doesnt care if the identity is fraudulent | 06:20 |
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| coinoperated | should just call it Proof of Wallet, it merely boils down to monetary commitment anyway. | 06:37 |
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| kanzure | "I know it's not on a mainframe but if you think 8,000 vms is a lot (which it is!) Ron Minnich ran 1,000,000 Linux VMs on the Thunderbird supercomputing cluster with Dell supplied 4,480-nodes." https://share.sandia.gov/news/resources/news_releases/sandia-computer-scientists-successfully-boot-one-million-linux-kernels-as-virtual-machines/ | 10:40 |
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| kanzure | "“Eventually, we would like to be able to emulate the computer network of a small nation, or even one as large as the United States, in order to ‘virtualize’ and monitor a cyber attack,” he said." | 10:42 |
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| rusty | kanzure: yeah, Ron's hack was cool: AFAIK he's the only serious user of lguest, like, ever. | 10:43 |
| jgarzik | heh | 10:46 |
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| nsh | .t http://blog.sldx.com/proof-of-location/ | 11:44 |
| yoleaux | nsh: Sorry, I don't know what timezone that is. If in doubt, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tz_database_time_zones for a list of options. | 11:44 |
| nsh | .title http://blog.sldx.com/proof-of-location/ | 11:44 |
| yoleaux | Proof of Location – SolidX Blog | 11:44 |
| nsh | this is you, isn't is bsm117532? | 11:44 |
| bsm117532 | Yes. | 11:44 |
| nsh | awesome | 11:45 |
| nsh | i had the idea of GPS sats sending nowness hashes years back for space-time bound decryptability | 11:45 |
| bsm117532 | Cool. I was pretty proud of that blog post. ;-) | 11:46 |
| nsh | but had an interesting conversation with zooko over the weekend about using something like this to distribute blockmining geographically | 11:46 |
| bsm117532 | Hmmm...I've been thinking about that a lot WRT braids. You end up in a situation where you want geographically distributed mining. | 11:46 |
| * nsh nods | 11:47 | |
| bsm117532 | But I can basically get that by incentivization of fast block creation instead. | 11:47 |
| nsh | oh? | 11:47 |
| bsm117532 | Yes, if you win more BTC by creating a bead/block quickly, you get geographic distribution. | 11:48 |
| bsm117532 | Where "quick" is determined by the DAG structure order, relative to the quickness of other miners. | 11:48 |
| bsm117532 | This was in my talk, I called it "cohort difficulty" -- your target difficulty relative to other miners separated from you by the light cone should be similar. | 11:49 |
| nsh | so why doesn't someone with a bunch of concentrated hashpower mine fast blocks in one spot? | 11:49 |
| nsh | so there is some entropy incorporated from other participants who are distal? | 11:50 |
| nsh | how do you ensure they are distal? | 11:50 |
| kanzure | speed-of-light constraints could be used for a proof of location as long as you are okay with people delaying evidence of them having received something | 11:50 |
| bsm117532 | Good question. | 11:50 |
| * bsm117532 ponders | 11:50 | |
| nsh | kanzure, this is why - i think - you need a lot of beacons of nowness [nonce-cones] that originate from a geographical distributed constellation (like GPS-sats) | 11:51 |
| nsh | but you can use other infrastructure as long as it's mapped and you can compensate for the topography | 11:52 |
| bsm117532 | nsh: In principle you can tell the topography from the graph itself. | 11:52 |
| nsh | yeah, that's a fascinating idea | 11:53 |
| nsh | i need to think hard about it | 11:53 |
| bsm117532 | e.g. imagine a uniformly distributed set of nodes on the surface of a sphere, each generating blocks. | 11:54 |
| nsh | right | 11:54 |
| bsm117532 | This will generate a particular set of DAG connections that will differ from e.g. if the points were distributed on the surface of a pyramid. | 11:54 |
| nsh | this already assumes we stop the creation of artificial extent through delayed relaying/mining? | 11:54 |
| bsm117532 | You mean the delay caused by PoW? | 11:55 |
| kanzure | in the logs in here there was osmtehing about using orbital telescopes for infrared imaging to confirm heat generation from hashing. | 11:55 |
| nsh | (waiting before acting on your source of now (hashes) is equivalent to introducing more distance) | 11:55 |
| nsh | or nodes gaming for whatever reason | 11:55 |
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| nsh | well, we have to probably limit ourselves to what can reasonably be part of the consensus rules | 11:56 |
| nsh | big brother telescopes are hard to codify | 11:56 |
| kanzure | you don't need big brother telescopes | 11:56 |
| kanzure | you can use orbital rainbow technique | 11:56 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/space/Orbiting%20rainbows%20-%20optical%20manipulation%20of%20aerosols%20and%20the%20beginnings%20of%20future%20space%20construction%20-%20NASA.pdf | 11:56 |
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| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/space/Image%20restoration%20from%20a%20sequence%20of%20random%20masks.pdf | 11:57 |
| bsm117532 | Well with braids I'm adding a faster layer. So you want, on average, there to be many beads/blocks created within the time interval defining the light cone. | 11:57 |
| nsh | i'm suggesting you can't couple the measurement of IR with the logic that decides is a block is valid without pathological degree of complexity | 11:57 |
| nsh | *if | 11:57 |
| bsm117532 | The fundemental propagation time across the network is ~1s, so the bead rate will be many per second. | 11:57 |
| bsm117532 | One can then create a metric of "were these distributed on the surface of a sphere", and use it in the incentive formula. | 11:58 |
| bsm117532 | Which will end up after a long time incentivizing people to put mining hardware in the middle of the Pacific, or using artificial delays to make it look like there is mining hardware in the Pacific. | 11:59 |
| nsh | i think there's a boottrapping problem: you can't use sequence to determine geometry and at the same time use geometry to induce sequencing. if you already had some distributed notion of proper-time then you could project back from the braid-structure to the likely space on which it was mined | 11:59 |
| nsh | but i think if you're trying to use the network itself as the clock, then you get a catch-22 | 11:59 |
| bsm117532 | Hmmm... | 12:00 |
| nsh | but maybe i'm just being intuitively pessimistic | 12:00 |
| nsh | need to puzzle it out formally | 12:00 |
| bsm117532 | It's certainly true I can create any topography I want in the graph structure by introducing artificial delays. | 12:00 |
| bsm117532 | BTW the topography is defined by the set of parent links in a DAG, not by the hashrate. | 12:01 |
| nsh | right. so that's why i asked if there's already something that's putting spacetime tension on nodes so that they fall behind if they delay at all | 12:01 |
| nsh | which we already get a low resolution with blocktime anyway | 12:01 |
| nsh | it's just that light goes so awfully fast and we can't hold everyone to a statistical mining tick that's small enough | 12:02 |
| nsh | (but this is probably because i don't understand your bead mining model properly) | 12:02 |
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| nsh | *at low | 12:02 |
| bsm117532 | nsh: You don't actually need a clock. Instead you use the fact that one node "couldn't possibly have seen" beads that come later in time. | 12:02 |
| nsh | right, hash generation is a lock | 12:03 |
| nsh | *clock | 12:03 |
| nsh | any hash generated with input from a past event makes a later event | 12:03 |
| bsm117532 | Still puzzling over your question about all the mining in the same geographic area. | 12:03 |
| nsh | gtg now, but will think more on this :) | 12:04 |
| bsm117532 | I'd prefer to have all nodes mining. In particular, have every transaction mined (even if CPU mining) so that you can't separate the mining from the geographic distribution of currency holders. | 12:04 |
| nsh | thanks for the blogpost! | 12:04 |
| bsm117532 | Sure, glad you enjoyed it! | 12:04 |
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| pizzalvr- | could nodes simply reject a block as invalid if it includes a double-spend? | 16:45 |
| dgenr8 | pizzalvr-: not quite. but there are ideas whereby they could deprecate those blocks, if the double-spend were obvious enough | 16:49 |
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| pizzalvr- | dgenr8, so that code would delay the transmission of blocks X seconds if the miner were acting poorly? | 17:07 |
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| --- Log closed Tue Jan 12 00:00:02 2016 | ||
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