2016-01-13.log

--- Log opened Wed Jan 13 00:00:03 2016
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JackHkanzure : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VaWhbAj7hWNdiE73P-W-wrl5a0WNgzjofmZXe0Rh5sg/htmlview?usp=sharing&sle=true05:48
JackHfor you05:48
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bsm117532Going to relay a private question here because I think the answer may be of interest to others:07:44
bsm117532"am I right in understanding that your braid idea is implementable as a sufficiently elaborate softfork?"07:44
bsm117532It can't be done as a soft fork. It can be added as a soft fork (and I'm thinking about making an alternative to p2pool that uses braids, and would be a p2p mining pool). But at some point we would have to dump the old, huge bitcoin blocks in favor of beads, and change how coinbases are calculated.  At this point it's a hard fork.07:45
bsm117532So there are three phases: (1) Bitcoin as it is now, (2) bitcoin + merge-mined braid, (3) braid only.  1->2 is a soft fork, 2->3 is a hard fork.07:45
bsm117532But once phase 2 is in progress, we can wait until very near 100% of nodes have upgraded.07:45
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Taekas long as there is still work being done, you could definitely do it as a soft-fork07:45
bsm117532This 3-phase description is true for basically any "smaller-faster underlayer" that improves Bitcoin's scalability.07:46
Taekbut it would be elaborate07:46
bsm117532Taek: the big hard-fork change is the requirement that blocks can't allocate their own coinbases, they have to be allocated 100 blocks later, when the existence of siblings/orphans can be known by everyone.07:47
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bsm117532Along with that comes a new incentive model that e.g. destroys selfish mining (because one can identify block withholding from the structure of the braid).07:48
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TaekI'm pretty sure you can still softfork the coinbase change. Force miners to set their coinbase to anyone-can-spend, and then add the rules for who is allowed to spend it based on the structure of the braid07:50
Taekthe anyone-can-spend will be blocked until time has passed07:50
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bsm117532Taek: wouldn't that create forks from old clients who spend the anyone-can-spend in a different way than specified by the braid?07:51
bsm117532I believe soft forks can only rely on anyone-can-pay, not anyone-can-spend?07:51
Taekold nodes recognize the outputs as anyone-can-spend, and new nodes recognize that those outputs are illegal unless certain criteria are met. Old nodes are reduced to SPV security on the anyone-can-spend outputs because they can't recognize when one has been spent illegally. But new nodes will ignore blocks that spend them incorrectly, allowing new rules to be enforced on those outputs.07:54
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bsm117532But anyone can then create a fork by trying to spend the 25 BTC on an old node.07:56
bsm117532Of course as long as >50% of the hashing power is making braid-compatible blocks, the old node will abandon these as orphans.07:57
bsm117532Hmmm...07:57
bsm117532I'm gonna have a little dance party right here in my office if this can really be done as a soft fork.  That would be amazing!07:58
Taekit works because >50% of the hashpower is enforcing the new rules07:58
Taekif you don't get that, you can't do a soft-fork07:58
bsm117532I see.07:58
bsm117532But to move beyond the block size constraint is still a hard fork. No?08:00
adlaibsm117532: of course blocks can allocate coinbases... cf p2pool08:00
bsm117532e.g. the braid contains 2MB of tx...checkpointing to a 1MB block won't work.08:00
bsm117532adlai: the difficulty is enforcing that that coinbase matches the braid, for nodes that don't see the braid.  I think Taek has it right above and that part can be a soft fork.08:01
Taekit will work, but it will be lossy. As time continues, old nodes will have a less and less complete picture of what the network looks like, with most of the money being held in anyone-can-spend outputs that they don't understand08:01
Taekyou can hide the entire history of an anyone-can-spend by just not putting the later txns into the 1mb block. But then to someone who doesn't have the full history, the motion of the anyone-can-spend outputs becomes increasingly incomprehensible08:02
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bsm117532Wait.  Can't you do that with the block size too? Create one anyone-can-spend and one anyone-can-pay output that corresponds to the contents of an extension block.08:04
bsm117532(corresponds to the net)08:04
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adlaibsm117532: miners "have" to validate soft-forks if a hashpower majority considers blocks that don't validate the soft-fork invalid08:06
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adlaiie, a hashpower majority agrees to validate blocks with an additional rule that pays out coinbase reward to the recipients of orphaned blocks... eventually all miners have to validate this, because if they orphan a block without sharing the reward, the majority will share the reward in a block that orphans the non-sharer08:08
Taekbsm117532: yes, you can raise the blocksize by an arbitrary amount using a softfork. But in doing so you basically require all SPV wallets to reimplement their logic.08:08
bsm117532Yep I see.  Soft fork relies on hashpower majority to enforce new rules.08:08
bsm117532Taek: can you elaborate on that point?08:08
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bsm117532Braids have serious implications for SPV wallets that I haven't even begun to think about...08:09
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bsm117532Adam Back on this: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-May/008356.html08:12
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bsm117532And BIP102 softfork: http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/012153.html08:14
kanzure.title08:14
yoleaux[bitcoin-dev] An implementation of BIP102 as a softfork.08:14
kanzure.title08:14
yoleaux[bitcoin-dev] An implementation of BIP102 as a softfork.08:14
kanzureoh.08:14
kanzure.title https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-May/008356.html08:14
yoleaux[Bitcoin-development] soft-fork block size increase (extension blocks) Re: Proposed alternatives to the 20MB stepfunction08:14
kanzurefor an overview of various soft-fork subtypes see http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/012173.html08:15
bsm117532The hard/soft fork conversation is usually so violent and often nonsensical that I've largely avoided paying attention.  :-/08:16
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Taekforks are pretty awful in general. segwit is honestly pretty convoluted, the type of thing that would make a newbie in 5 years go 'seriously, WTF, who designed this?', which is the same reaction I had when learning about how bootloaders work for computers. And while I do think segwit is the best course of action, it would be really awesome to just start completely from scratch and design something that incorporated all of our new knowledge08:21
Taekand maybe in 5 years, when we've learned even more, it will make sense to actually do that. Maybe not08:22
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bsm117532Taek: I totally agree.  (Once wrote a bootloader myself...)  That's why my perspective on braids is to figure out the "right" way to do it first, and then figure out how to shoe-horn it in second.08:23
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bsm117532There's always an upgrade path to a new coin by proof-of-burn.08:24
Taekor just a two-way-peg08:24
bsm117532Yeah.08:24
bsm117532Because these are fungible assets I'm less concerned about forking and more concerned about making a good design.08:24
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el33th4x0rJust curious (and also testing my new irc client): Has any altcoin ever used proof of burn?08:33
bsm117532el33th4x0r: many.08:33
bsm117532CounterParty for one.08:34
Taekdogecoin and dogeparty was a very hyped 1-way-peg08:34
kanzurealso depends on whether you consider "using existing bitcoin blockchain as starting point" as proof-of-burn (everyone burned simultaneously? dunno). i think tonal bitcoin qualifies for this?08:34
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TaekThere's an entire psudeoscience in the altcoin world around the idea of 'fair coin distirbution'. Lots of stuff to read, though most of it is likely to be garbage08:36
el33th4x0rHow did CounterParty use PoB?08:36
bsm117532https://blockchain.info/address/1CounterpartyXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXUWLpVr08:36
bsm117532for a period of time, if you sent BTC to that unspendable address, XCP would be created.08:37
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el33th4x0rInteresting, i vaguely remember this now.08:38
MrHodlbip47 in use :) https://blockchain.info/address/1JDdmqFLhpzcUwPeinhJbUPw4Co3aWLyzW08:41
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zookolaptopDear wizards: the Zcash (formerly Zerocash, formerly Zerocoin) project is close to releasing public alpha software. Contact me if you are interested or want to help!09:04
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MRL-Relay[shen] zookolaptop - definitely looking forward to checking it out, been wondering how the setup phase works with mining09:13
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zookolaptopWhere is MRL-Relay relaying from?09:18
MRL-Relay[shen] I'm on the monero research labs irc server09:18
MRL-Relay[shen] fluffypony set it up, not quite sure how it works actually09:19
fluffyponyzookolaptop: it's relaying from the MRL private IRC server09:19
fluffypony(Freenode is wonky with Tor of late)09:20
zookolaptopfluffypony: oh yeah.09:20
zookolaptopHow can I communicate with you privately, shen? email me? zooko@z.cash09:20
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MRL-Relay[shen] sure09:23
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bsm117532Hahaa cool url zooko. z.cash.09:43
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kang_What do you call the 'blockchain(distributed ledger) + proof-of-work' protocol/algorithm? A better name than DMMS??10:18
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kang_Sorry if the question is too stupid, let me know, but when people say blockchains they mean distributed ledger excluding (more like not caring) proof-of-work10:19
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kanzurekang_: nakamoto consensus?10:19
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sean__what can go wrong if transaction validity is sensitive to a reorg?10:33
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sean__(a tx is valid, reorg occurs, tx is no longer valid)10:33
sean__i've heard this is bad but i'm curious about the details10:33
gwillensean__: well, it means that someone could receive a transaction, see confirmations for it, treat it as valid, and then have it become invalid later, which wouldn't be great10:34
gwillenbut I think that's not the whole answer, because in practice, transaction validity _can_ change in a reorg, e.g. because some other conflicting transaction gets confirmed insteda10:35
gwillenbecause big reorgs really aren't supposed to happen at all10:35
kang_kanzure: Calling it Nakamoto Consensus fixes it to have POW10:37
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kang_kanzure: calling it cryptocurrency, fixes the token to be a currency10:37
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kang_kanzure: Calling it blockchain, does not care about proo-of-work and origin of money in general10:38
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kang_DMMS is the only thing that fits. But then is digital signature a protocol or an algorithm?10:40
nwilcoxgwillen> sean__: well, it means that someone could receive a transaction, see confirmations for it, treat it as valid, and then have it become invalid later, which wouldn't be great10:44
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nwilcoxThis is still the case even if transaction validity is not sensitive to reorgs.10:44
gwillennwilcox: right, see my followup10:45
nwilcoxI see.10:45
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nwilcoxSo is this a case of just reducing the probability of reorgs invalidating transactions, or does it also address a distinct problem?10:45
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bsm117532A big reorg would occur if there was a network partition that separated miners for a long period of time.10:46
nwilcoxOh... so one issue about a conflicting transaction invalidating another in a reorg is that the secret key holder must opt-in to that possibility.10:46
nwilcoxSo, as an example rule that introduces reorg sensitivity: this txn cannot be mined at height > H.10:48
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nwilcoxThat rule might be an attempt at txn expiry, but it also introduces reorg sensitivity.10:49
nwilcoxA miner may maliciously attempt a reorg specifically to inalidate such a txn and ...  Oh...  In this specific case the secret key holder is still opting in by using the "height limit opcode" or whatever it is.10:49
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nwilcoxOk, so if there's a new consensus rule that all txns *must* specify some height H at which they may not longer be mined so that it's no longer opt-in by the txn creator...10:51
adlaikang_: how else [than PoW] do you propose making signature membership dynamic? maybe the day PoS/etc become viable, Nakamoto Consensus will extend to include such Proofs of Expenditure10:52
* adlai is talking about proofs-of-storage, a la bramc10:52
tromp_could also be called PoC (proof of capacity) to avoid acronym conflict10:53
adlaiproof of concept >_>10:54
tromp_or PoD (proof of diskspace)10:54
adlaihow about we just stop treating recursive proofs (simulatable without external cost) as a Proof of Anything10:55
adlaialthough you could always make proof-of-stake-in-other-chain (for eg sidechains)10:56
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kang_adlai: Yes you are right. I am just talking nomenclature here, to avoid academic confusion. If other systems become viable & Nakamoto Consensus by definition would extend to include them, then we would  need a new term for 'blockchain+pow'11:05
adlaithe chain of [merkle] hashed blocks remains regardless of the PoE method11:05
adlaioh. ehh nakamoto-chain (hyphenated!)11:06
kang_Right. DMMS is what it should be called?11:07
adlaiDMMS has less to do with the content being signed, nakamoto was rather specific about its purpose11:07
kang_Right. Since I want to include token for any purpose (not just currency) DMMS would be the right name11:08
adlaibitmessage with stacking PoW would be interesting... your reply's PoW contributes to that of its antecedent11:10
kang_adlai: Its like blockchain, with one transaction (the message) per block)11:10
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adlaiif I make a 5-day-PoW reply to a 5-day-PoW message, the original {c,sh}ould live twice as long11:12
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adlaimessages don't all have to be linear, at a certain point you want to "abandon thread" to avoid getting orphaned by diskspace conservatists11:13
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adlaibsm117532: re:blocksize, you can always soft-fork down the size of each block once scalability overflows to off-chain solutions. then stick <=N orphans inside your blocks, for an N-fold reduction (roughly speaking, ignoring constant overheads)11:19
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bsm117532Do you mean increase?11:21
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adlainope. decrease the size of each individual node in the bead, and you can fit more nodes in each valid Bitcoin block11:23
adlai"1MB should be enough for everybody"11:24
adlaiit's not like you need to support more than ~N orphans anyway (insufficient data for meaningful Nswer)11:25
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adlaihmm. but if you're not including orphaned beads,can you fill the space with additional txs? this may skew incentives, since it makes your block unusable as a bead11:27
adlaisimplest to reduce for all of them; seems rational too, as it increases the likelihood your orphaned block becomes an included bead11:28
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bsm117532adlai: Yes the idea is to have *much* smaller beads than blocks, and much faster too. You want the bead rate to be less than the transit time across the network, because the existence of siblings/orphans is what gives you a measure of who is following incentives correctly and who may be withholding blocks.12:32
bsm117532Since the size of the network is ~1s and 1MB/600 = 1.6kb we're getting down to one-transaction per bead.12:33
bsm117532I like the mine-every-transaction model from a mining decentralization perspective.12:33
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tromp_I like it from a "let's use a more CPU friendly PoW" perspective:)12:51
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bsm117532tromp_: I'd say let submitters CPU mine their own transaction -- it's not worth anything in BTC but it becomes relay DDoS protection at that point, or a way to pay your own fees.12:54
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tromp_indeed, PoW's original motivation was in spam/flood control12:55
r0achwhen users mine their own transactions, the central point of failure is what percent the algo is sped up by specialized hardware and if over a certain percent, then it becomes centralized by Amazon warehouses processing transactions and you're back to square one?12:56
tromp_no, amazon warehouses won't be used if not profitable12:57
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r0achI meant amazon warehouses as in size of scale, while using specialized hardware, not actual commodity cpus12:58
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bsm117532One would end up with tiers of miners. I don't want to accept your crappily-mined transaction, so someone else would end up mining it further for you, maybe a service provider...12:58
bsm117532Which gets me on to a topic that keeps popping up -- how to combine multiple PoW's in a compact way?13:00
tromp_if you have k independent PoW proofs, then you expect one of them to beat a k times tighter difficulty threshold13:01
tromp_so that one can be taken to represent the work of the whole group13:02
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bsm117532tromp_ that's the algorithm I keep falling down to.  It has the nice property that it follows Poisson statistics too. I keep having this inkling that there's something wrong and there's another way to do it though...13:05
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bsm117532The problem is to not only find the best PoW for a subset, but also pay all the other miners...13:06
bsm117532If you only take the best one, then the guy with the best hash could in principle steal transactions from the more weakly mined beads...13:06
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tromp_you can choose to reward weak blocks. instead of reward R for difficulty D, have R/3 for D, R/30 for D/10, and R/300 for D/100 for instance. same total reward13:09
bsm117532Why doesn't the stronger miner just take all the tx's out of the weak block and call them his own?13:10
tromp_i was assuming block rewards and negligable tx fees13:10
bsm117532tromp_ that's easy, I'm concerned about tx fees.13:12
r0achPeople can't improve on Bitcoin because it's probabalistic with low fault tolerance and high fault recovery while people want to design and evaluate security in a binary manner.13:19
r0achwho wants to ship something out of the door that they know is going to fail13:19
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wqeqBITCOIN CASINO FOR SALE Some of the features are:  Bitcoin Faucet Game analytics Jackpot Events Bot players Realtime messaging Ads Support  MORE INFO AT http://bitcoinplay.xyz There is also a DEMO site UP, so feel free and test it out.13:25
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bsm117532I find that my use of "orphan" disagrees with the bitcoin.org glossary. What I've been calling an orphan is defined as a stale block by them. No one has complained about my use of the word though. Would people prefer to call valid, non-main-chain blocks "orphans" or "stale blocks"?14:14
bsm117532Maybe "eunuch" would be better, since they have parents but can't have children! ;-)14:15
kanzureyes, people have complained about stale/orphan conflation in here14:19
kanzurean some of us (including myself) have continued to ignore this problem because $reasons14:19
kanzure*and some of us14:19
bsm117532bitcoin wiki also defines "extinct blocks"...14:20
bsm117532I really like the utility of the family analogy when talking about braids, so I think I'm going to stick with "orphan" unless someone screams loudly...14:21
Taekbsm117532: the stale/orphan debate went the way of the 'I'm literally dying of excitement' debate. For a while people tried to get others to use the words as defined, but ultimately the collquial definition prevailed. 'Orphan' is now synonymous with 'Stale', and if you specifically mean orphan by the old definition, you'll need to find some other way to express yourself14:22
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bsm117532Ok, a footnote will take care of this.  thanks guys.14:23
bsm117532Orphan as originally defined must be a very rare occurrence indeed.14:24
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kanzuremaybe "reorg causalty"14:26
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bsm117532Hey I've already got incest in my paper, let's not add dead children!14:30
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