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| pigeons | amiller: have you looked at that scorex permacoin implementation? | 09:13 |
|---|---|---|
| amiller | nope, didn't notice that | 09:14 |
| amiller | my google alert must have failed me | 09:14 |
| amiller | thanks pigeons! | 09:14 |
| amiller | oh, i know a little bit about that one | 09:14 |
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| PeterR | True of False: An "empty block" (coinbase-only) is empirically more likely to be mined after a large block than small block. | 11:49 |
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| arubi | because why..? no transactions were made during the (average) 10 minutes in between these blocks? | 11:56 |
| arubi | oh, he left. | 11:56 |
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| alpalp | I would expect true because an empty block typically indicates a clearing of mempool and a fast block found or a slow to propagate block that is SPV mined. | 11:58 |
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| arubi | when was the last time mempool was cleared at your end alpalp? :) | 12:01 |
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| alpalp | If we are talking historically for empiracal evidence its happened a lot :) | 12:03 |
| arubi | hehe, I guess you're right, looking far back enough | 12:03 |
| alpalp | So you could have a lot of prior-to-empty blocks being small just due to very low volume | 12:08 |
| alpalp | id imagine that is the case for the first few years | 12:08 |
| alpalp | so it depends a lot on the situation | 12:09 |
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| arubi | it does, currently I imagine some very specific miners are mining 'empty' blocks, for whatever reasons, probably small miners who don't care about the fees and only want fast propagation | 12:12 |
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| Luke-Jr | arubi: all miners are mining empty blocks when the alternative is a stale block | 12:20 |
| Luke-Jr | well, most I guess | 12:20 |
| Luke-Jr | stupid ckpool doesn't | 12:20 |
| arubi | Luke-Jr, what do you mean by the alternative? | 12:21 |
| arubi | I mean, how do they know beforehand that it might be stale? | 12:21 |
| Luke-Jr | arubi: when a miner gets a new block from someone else, the following events occur: | 12:22 |
| instagibbs | lol getting baited by peter_r to answer something. good stuff | 12:22 |
| Luke-Jr | 1) they receive the block header; at this point, they know they are mining stale blocks on the previous block | 12:22 |
| Luke-Jr | 2) they receive the block itself | 12:22 |
| Luke-Jr | 3) they validate the block itself | 12:22 |
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| Luke-Jr | 4) they caclulate the transactions to go into the next block, following that new block | 12:22 |
| Luke-Jr | any sane miner will mine empty blocks as soon as 3 is complete, until 4 is done | 12:23 |
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| Luke-Jr | headers-only miners mine empty blocks beginning after 1 | 12:23 |
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| Luke-Jr | at any point in these 4 steps, if they are NOT mining empty blocks, they ARE mining a stale block COMPETING with the new blcok | 12:23 |
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| arubi | Luke-Jr, ah, I see. so sometimes they happen to hit a block before they validate the transactions that might go into the new block, but they're also taking a risk if they don't validate the block itself and only mine on top of the header | 12:25 |
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| Luke-Jr | well, they're putting the network at risk in that case | 12:25 |
| arubi | hm. the network being most that don't validate blocks at all then? | 12:26 |
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| arubi | talking about miners who start mining after 1 | 12:28 |
| arubi | (as mining after 3 will simply strengthen the security of all transactions mined before the empty block is found and accepted) | 12:30 |
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| Lightsword | Luke-Jr, step 4 is largely negligable with aggressive enough filtering even in 0.11.2 at least from my profiling. The biggest issue is receiving the block itself vs just receiving the headers over stratum. | 12:34 |
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| Lightsword | antpool has been basically triggering selfish mining attacks with its poor propagation | 12:38 |
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| PeterR | The correct answer is TRUE. | 13:14 |
| PeterR | The probability of an empty block following a 1 MB block is ~4.7%, ~3.1% after a 500 kB block, and ~1.7% after a very small block. | 13:14 |
| PeterR | Reference: http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/1txn/ | 13:14 |
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| arubi | weird. timed out right after I said that ^. did he respond? | 13:39 |
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| PeterR | Luke-jr: that is my understanding as well regarding the sequence of events for receiving a block. | 13:43 |
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| PeterR | What does Eligius do after #1 but before #3? Do you continue to mine on the stale block, mine an empty block on the not-yet-validated block, turn your miners off and wait, or something else? | 13:45 |
| Luke-Jr | PeterR: Is that with HO mining or just normal/safe mining? | 13:46 |
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| PeterR | I'm sorry. I don't understand your question. | 13:47 |
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| Luke-Jr | PeterR: Eligius continues to mine the stale block; Stratum does not really allow for the ideal case. :< | 13:47 |
| Luke-Jr | [21:14:41] <PeterR> The probability of an empty block following a 1 MB block is ~4.7%, ~3.1% after a 500 kB block, and ~1.7% after a very small block. <-- referring to these | 13:47 |
| PeterR | Ok thanks for the info. | 13:47 |
| Luke-Jr | headers-only-caused empty blocks, or normal empty blocks? | 13:48 |
| Luke-Jr | PeterR: to be clear, the ideal case IMO is that for 1-3, you would mine on the new block header, but delay submitting any block found until the validation completed; the problem is that there is no way to tell miners "go back to the last block" as they consider that a 51% attack attempt | 13:49 |
| PeterR | Oh, regarding the data. Andrew Stone (theZerg) looked at all empty blocks but I think removed cases when there were two empty blocks in a row. He was analyzing how the likeliness of an empty block depends on how big the prior block was. | 13:49 |
| PeterR | Luke-Jr: agree that that would be idea. | 13:50 |
| PeterR | *ideal | 13:50 |
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| Luke-Jr | ah, so it's a mix of both scenarios in practice | 13:51 |
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| r0ach | Luke-Jr: Since it's impossible for Bitcoin to not have central bankers unless you have 0 transaction fee and unlimited block size, what is your opinion on a forced minimum transaction fee (pro/against/neutral) | 14:01 |
| Luke-Jr | r0ach: you can't really force it. miners could always pay it back. | 14:03 |
| r0ach | but that would fall back on game theory of pools attacking the network they operate on | 14:03 |
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| Luke-Jr | r0ach: well, I don't see a benefit to it | 14:14 |
| Luke-Jr | unless it's combined with some kind of fees-get-shared-with-the-next-block thing | 14:14 |
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| smooth | its actually harmful imo to incentivize situations where miners are paying back fees, or paying out of band to avoid sharing with future blocks | 14:24 |
| smooth | if you want minimum fees they have to be burned like ppc | 14:25 |
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| r0ach | Luke-Jr & Smooth: The Satoshi quote on that subject: | 14:35 |
| r0ach | "If we started getting DoS attacked with loads of wasted transactions back and forth, you would need to start paying a 0.01 minimum transaction fee. 0.1.5 actually had an option to set that, but I took it out to reduce confusion. Free transactions are nice and we can keep it that way if people don't abuse them." | 14:35 |
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| adnn_ | Lightsword: do you have any more info/data to share RE antpool's poor propagation? | 14:50 |
| adnn_ | Is it specifically worse than other pools in china (f2pool)? | 14:50 |
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| Lightsword | adnn_, yeah see here https://gist.github.com/jameshilliard/5e0352f63a24acd9cf5f | 14:50 |
| adnn_ | Thank you! | 14:51 |
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| Lightsword | I’ve seen this happen a number of times | 14:51 |
| Lightsword | see how only pools that miner on headers switch to the new block | 14:51 |
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| adnn_ | Five minutes, wow. | 14:53 |
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| JackH | kanzure, you seen this: http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/01/17/e-cash-satoshi-for-reddit/e-cash-satoshi-for-reddit.pdf | 15:11 |
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| AdrianG | JackH: tldr? | 15:57 |
| smooth | AdrianG: block that took 5 min to get out of china | 15:57 |
| AdrianG | ? | 15:58 |
| smooth | what JackH posted | 15:58 |
| AdrianG | what do you mean? | 15:58 |
| smooth | oh sorry wrong link | 15:58 |
| smooth | nvm | 15:58 |
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| bramc | What is this 'bitcoin classic' which people keep referring to? Does this mean anything at all? | 16:34 |
| belcher | theres a github repository and some posts on /r/btc | 16:34 |
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| belcher | its bitcoin-xt rebooted basically, slightly different block size ideas, also it has no code written yet | 16:35 |
| bramc | What, if anything, are the ideas? | 16:37 |
| belcher | set the block limit as something between 2mb or 4mb, depending on which post you read | 16:38 |
| belcher | and they might want to reverse the RBF commit | 16:38 |
| belcher | a fairly serious PR issue is they've taken all the companies and institutions who say they're happy with 2mb and spun it as "supporting bitcoin classic", at one point even Luke-Jr was nearly on that list because of some comment he made | 16:39 |
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| PeterR | I think the latest thinking is a simple fork to 2 MB. | 16:40 |
| PeterR | An no RBF. | 16:40 |
| bsm117532 | Give me 5 minutes and I'll make a fork that changes 1000000 to 2000000. A monkey could do it. | 16:40 |
| JackH | why no RBF? | 16:40 |
| PeterR | That's the point. | 16:40 |
| JackH | what is wrong with RBF? | 16:40 |
| belcher | JackH if you dont believe in a fee market, theres no point bidding for block space ;) | 16:41 |
| belcher | also, a more serious point is that many people rely on zero-conf right now and believe RBF would it even less secure than it already is | 16:41 |
| JackH | but its opt-in | 16:41 |
| JackH | it is a node policy, why cant we have node policies if we want to | 16:42 |
| maaku | RBF was never optional :P | 16:42 |
| maaku | It the endgame you will eventually get no matter what | 16:42 |
| belcher | i think they argue that merchants who have not updated their software to recognise the opt-in will be harmed | 16:42 |
| PeterR | One of the ideas behind Classic is that the community's input should be taken into account. Polling was strongly in favor of removing RBF. | 16:42 |
| PeterR | https://bitcoinclassic.consider.it | 16:42 |
| belcher | its silly i know, everyone is harmed if they dont update their software | 16:42 |
| instagibbs | Too bad they won't be able to maintain those kind of silly patches while keeping up. | 16:43 |
| PeterR | What do you guys think about replacing an entire *block* be paying enough fees? Say 30 BTC to entice the miners to attempt to orphan the tip? | 16:46 |
| bramc | I'm going to make Bitcoin++ which has the blocksize limit increased by one byte | 16:46 |
| r0ach | Classic arose because price appreciation is only really logical when raw on-chain transaction volume, or average value of each transaction, is increasing. Even if LN solves all scalability problems, it's not ready now, so hitting block limit and not changing it for a long duration of time is essentially giving all investors the middle finger | 16:46 |
| belcher | bramc call it Bitcoin Original | 16:47 |
| moa | Bitcoin Unchained | 16:49 |
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| AdrianG | Bitcoin Remastered | 16:52 |
| PeterR | To retain nodes from migrating to Classic or Unlimited, while still drawing an ideological line at 1 MB, Core could make the block size limit configurable from the command line but default to 1 MB (similar to how the max mined block size presently is). | 16:52 |
| PeterR | Crazy? | 16:52 |
| PeterR | Bitcoin Official | 16:52 |
| JackH | Bitcoin Problem | 16:53 |
| instagibbs | bramc, sorry I only accept 1MB-1byte blocks | 16:53 |
| AdrianG | that's not the lawful and proper blocksize, instagibbs. | 16:54 |
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| zookolaptop | PeterR: “Why Buy When You Can Rent?” by Joe Bonneau; my favorite paper attacking Bitcoin and (???) breaking it | 16:56 |
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| zookolaptop | s/Joe/Joseph/ | 16:56 |
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| PeterR | Thanks zooko. Interesting. | 16:58 |
| zookolaptop | I find it pretty unsettling, tbh. | 16:58 |
| zookolaptop | Disclosure: J. Bonneau is a member of the Zcash Technical Advisory Board. | 16:59 |
| PeterR | Yes, I met him in Montreal. | 16:59 |
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| PeterR | Zooko: It is unclear to me how *real* miners will behave in aggregate. To perform a rigorous analyses with math, typically I either model miners as: | 17:02 |
| PeterR | 1. Rational, short-term profit maximizing agents (perfectly competitive market). | 17:02 |
| PeterR | 2. Colluding agents (monopoly market). | 17:02 |
| PeterR | The reality is somewhere in the middle and is difficult to analyze. | 17:02 |
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| AdrianG | how do you model miners being DDoSed? | 17:04 |
| moa | on mainnet | 17:04 |
| PeterR | I've never tried. | 17:04 |
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| roconnor | It'll be nice when bitcoin finally settles on a some mining cartel so they can make a soft fork to require that all blocks be signed by the cartel and then they can drop their power usage. :P | 17:05 |
| AdrianG | roconnor: and then they can also meet every now and then, and decide by how much they lift the limit on total number of coins. | 17:06 |
| roconnor | AdrianG: well that requires a hard-fork, so it is a little more tricky. | 17:07 |
| PeterR | Consider the transaction fee market. Let’s also assume that the marginal cost to add a new TX to a block is zero. | 17:07 |
| PeterR | If #1 applies to miners, than we have a tragedy of the commons scenario. If #2 applies to miners, then they will collude to set the price in order to maximize their profit. | 17:07 |
| PeterR | But both of these are extreme cases. What would happen in reality? | 17:07 |
| roconnor | AdrianG: I used to think it wasn't realistic, but now I'm not sure how much the threat of losing mining power will sway users. maybe. | 17:07 |
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| instagibbs | PeterR, enforcing collusion may be impossible. Out-of-band refunds being the classic response. | 17:09 |
| instagibbs | the threat of people cheating may be enough to break down the cartel | 17:09 |
| PeterR | Agreed. | 17:09 |
| instagibbs | IANAEconomist | 17:09 |
| PeterR | But then the other extreme--miners being short-term profit maximizing agents--is probably not perfectly correct either. | 17:10 |
| alpalp | agreed. Which is why they don't create a fee market today with a soft-fork block size. | 17:10 |
| AdrianG | roconnor: i think before that talk surfaces, its just a matter of time. if bitcoin becomes successful enough - we will see people proposing such things. | 17:10 |
| alpalp | instagibbs, they collude through an enforced block limit to control prices. | 17:11 |
| PeterR | That is certainly one possibility. | 17:11 |
| roconnor | AdrianG: I heard a rumor that at the last halfing of the reward, so miners continued on a fork maintaining the 50 btc reward. | 17:12 |
| roconnor | maybe they will have better luck next time. :) | 17:12 |
| PeterR | alpalp: That was what we expected to happen if the network ran Bitcoin Unlimited (i.e., through some emergent consensus process, miners would converge on *some* block size limit to increase their revenue somewhat). | 17:13 |
| zookolaptop | There was a presentation about the game theory of DoS attacks on competitor miners at Financial Crypto 2015, IIRC. | 17:15 |
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| zookolaptop | And an accompanying paper, of course. | 17:15 |
| maaku | PeterR 1MB is no ideological line | 17:17 |
| PeterR | Even better then. | 17:17 |
| zookolaptop | roconnor: pretty sure it would be possible to soft-fork raising the 21M limit... | 17:18 |
| zookolaptop | Not that I know how I would do it. Just a hunch. Don't really care that much... | 17:18 |
| maaku | Everyone who signed the roadmap is approving a 2MB tx, 4MB bandwidth increase, and more when specific milestones are met | 17:19 |
| PeterR | Hypothetically: if support for Classic is sufficient and 1.1 MB blocks are included in the most-work chain, do you think Core will increase the limit to be compatible or not? | 17:20 |
| maaku | I don't and I wouldn't care. I'd have left the building if it came to that | 17:21 |
| maaku | Don't know | 17:21 |
| PeterR | Are you saying that you would stop working on Bitcoin if that happened? | 17:21 |
| roconnor | zookolaptop: really? I don't understand what you are thinking. Soft fork can only make valid block into invalid blocks. | 17:21 |
| smooth | left the building over 100K and you say it isn't ideological? | 17:22 |
| alpalp | roconnor, You could have extra coins created in an extra data structure and people would use that. | 17:22 |
| roconnor | alpalp: and make them fungable? | 17:22 |
| smooth | thats not exactly a soft fork, and a soft fork and __________ | 17:23 |
| alpalp | they wouldn't be fungable and unupgraded clients wouldn't be able to see them | 17:23 |
| maaku | PeterR: yes | 17:23 |
| roconnor | alpalp: sounds kinda like merged mining. | 17:23 |
| alpalp | roconnor, in the simplest case, you mine empty blocks with a hash of the "new block" in it. | 17:23 |
| smooth | there might be some way to get spv clients to see them | 17:23 |
| maaku | It would have demonstrated the inevitable failure of bitcoin and I can read writing on the wall. | 17:23 |
| alpalp | which is basically a forced merge mine killing the original coin | 17:24 |
| smooth | sounds ideological to me, but then i dont judge ideological | 17:24 |
| roconnor | alpalp: oh I see what you are saying | 17:25 |
| PeterR | Maaku: do you think the evolution of Bitcoin should be controlled by the code people freely choose to run? | 17:25 |
| roconnor | alpalp: wow | 17:25 |
| alpalp | people are free to run whatever software they want, maaku is free to not participate | 17:26 |
| PeterR | agreed | 17:26 |
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| roconnor | alpalp: "the cartel has decided to halt and censor processing all bitcoins. However, all UTXOs have been copied over to our new awesome chain. Feel free to spend your coins there." -- your friendly miners | 17:27 |
| smooth | im not sure that can really be enforced though | 17:27 |
| alpalp | roconnor, yep, that is possible, and would require a hard fork to turn the miners into heaters | 17:27 |
| smooth | pretty much the same cartel argument as above | 17:28 |
| smooth | it assumes as a premise the existance of a stable cartel | 17:28 |
| roconnor | alpalp: what do you mean by "hard fork to turn the miners into heaters" | 17:28 |
| alpalp | change POW scheme if miners attacked in such a way incompatible with what users wanted. The nuclear option | 17:28 |
| roconnor | right | 17:29 |
| smooth | this doesn't really go nuclear against miners though, it goes nuclear against owners of asic designs | 17:29 |
| smooth | users could also just buy asics and break the cartel | 17:29 |
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| alpalp | the owner of the miners lose their investment | 17:30 |
| AdrianG | smooth: thats lunacy. | 17:30 |
| AdrianG | you cannot compete with cartels like that. | 17:30 |
| smooth | again, you are assumign the existance of a cartel to begin with | 17:31 |
| smooth | and taht might be possible if asic designers are the onse controlling it | 17:31 |
| AdrianG | i think there is a "soft" cartel already, to some extent. | 17:31 |
| smooth | im not sure it is otherwise. miners who refuse to mine are disadvantaing themselvem and even cartel members may cheat | 17:31 |
| AdrianG | its a group with its own mindset, its own interests, goals. | 17:31 |
| AdrianG | a distinct group. also with considerable influence. | 17:32 |
| smooth | its possible, but not necessarily stable | 17:32 |
| roconnor | how do cartel members cheat on their cartel? | 17:32 |
| AdrianG | smooth: just look at increases in difficulty. and yet proportion of major pools remains the same. | 17:32 |
| AdrianG | i've always found that a little strange. | 17:32 |
| smooth | roconnor: they mine on the side | 17:32 |
| smooth | nobody can prove who is mining with the cartel really | 17:33 |
| smooth | "some of my miners are down, sorry power issues" | 17:33 |
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| roconnor | I guess, but I figured cartel mining would be designed to prefer to mine on their own blocks, making it more profitable to mine with the cartel than outside it. | 17:34 |
| smooth | AdrianG: the pools may be a sham you know. large miners probably just split their hash between pools | 17:34 |
| AdrianG | smooth: sure, but all of them split in the same proportion? | 17:34 |
| smooth | so if a large farm expands some of that hash probably goes to multiple pools | 17:34 |
| smooth | If i mine 30%+30%+20%+20% and I double the size of my farm, no change in the split really | 17:35 |
| smooth | it is tempting to look at a nice pretty pie chart and think you can see something. what if you actually see nothing useful at all? | 17:35 |
| AdrianG | its a possibility there is nothing. | 17:37 |
| AdrianG | but its just a possibility amongst many. idk how to assign weights here. | 17:37 |
| AdrianG | we don't even have water-heater asics yet. | 17:37 |
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| roconnor | heh, evey winter I think of buying myself a miner. | 17:38 |
| smooth | and btw when i say users mining i dont necessarily mean joe coffee spv wallet users | 17:38 |
| smooth | you have users who are billion dollar companies like coinbase who dont mine but certainly could if they thought there was a reason to do so | 17:38 |
| alpalp | theres no way coinbase is a "billion dollar company" | 17:39 |
| smooth | alleged valuation | 17:39 |
| smooth | they can (maybe, depends on market conditions) raise funding as if they were | 17:39 |
| alpalp | VC for bitcoin companies are drying up, i doubt it. | 17:40 |
| smooth | probably but who knows later stage companies are a bit of a different market | 17:41 |
| AdrianG | roconnor: water heaters must be on 24/7/365, not just winter. | 17:41 |
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| AdrianG | thankfully due to the recent climate change deal in paris, electricity rates will never go cheaper. | 17:41 |
| AdrianG | coinbase cant possibly be a billion dollar corp. | 17:42 |
| AdrianG | any decent bank can start doing what they are doing with a minimal investment. | 17:42 |
| smooth | they literally raised money at 500 million a year ago | 17:42 |
| alpalp | but do they have 5 billion wallets!? | 17:42 |
| smooth | that is no alleged | 17:42 |
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| smooth | *not | 17:42 |
| AdrianG | smooth: sort of like square raised at inflated valuation with contracts that assure a certain level profit in any case? | 17:43 |
| smooth | of course it is like that | 17:43 |
| smooth | anyway, that's not the point, the point is that miners are an open set, not a closed set, unles they convince users to switch to a wallet with them signing the blocks | 17:44 |
| alpalp | smooth, do you have a source for the 500 mil valuation? | 17:44 |
| alpalp | the only info I see was 76 mil raised. | 17:44 |
| smooth | "more than 400 million" http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-01-20/coinbase-said-to-be-valued-at-more-than-400-million-in-funding | 17:45 |
| AdrianG | 400 mio and one dolla. | 17:45 |
| smooth | 471 mil http://blog.vcexperts.com/2015/01/21/coinbase-raises-75m-valued-at-471m/ | 17:46 |
| alpalp | lol vc | 17:46 |
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| alpalp | according to unnamed source. | 17:46 |
| alpalp | id be willing to bet they are worth less now than then. | 17:47 |
| smooth | well come on, they raise 76 million and obv didn't give away the whole company so... | 17:47 |
| smooth | ballpark | 17:47 |
| AdrianG | idk why is there so many different channels. i end up talking to the same people anyway. | 17:47 |
| smooth | im not sure they are worth less, btc was really in a shitter a year ago | 17:48 |
| smooth | btw now definitely ot | 17:48 |
| AdrianG | lol | 17:51 |
| maaku | roconnor it is known as "evil fork" on this channel for a reason. | 17:53 |
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| maaku | Zooko I'll give you one dollar for 0.0000000001% of your zerocash company. You can be the first trillion dollar bitcoin company! | 17:56 |
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| alpalp | maaku: i already had a trillion dollar alt-coin. | 17:57 |
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| instagibbs | this would be good for -offtopic :P | 18:03 |
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| maaku | PeterR that is entirely missing the point. Bitcoin's user protecting properties require uncontroversial hard forks only. | 18:07 |
| smooth | maaku: but how do you ensure that? Threatening to leave the building doesn't seem very robust | 18:08 |
| alpalp | smooth, It cannot be ensured other than seeing that it has not happened yet. | 18:09 |
| alpalp | And that attempts to do so failed historically | 18:09 |
| belcher | try to argue against it | 18:09 |
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| maaku | Not threatening! It's just a fact. If a controversial hard fork can be pushed through on political grounds, then bitcoin has no future. | 18:20 |
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| maaku | Not unless you can think some way to prevent that from EVER happening again. | 18:21 |
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| smooth | okay then why state it | 18:27 |
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| AnonymousX | greetings all | 18:44 |
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| maaku | smooth: because frustration that people don't seem to understand the seriousness of the situation | 19:00 |
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| kanzure | btw, now that bitcoincore.org is pointing to a new server, what2do about old links such as https://bitcoincore.org/~gavin/ValidationSanity.pdf ? | 22:01 |
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| phantomcircuit | kanzure, 404 not found seems reasonable to me | 22:11 |
| kanzure | yea but where's the content | 22:13 |
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| maaku | would be nice to have kept that content up | 23:39 |
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| --- Log closed Mon Jan 18 00:00:08 2016 | ||
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