2016-01-19.log

--- Log opened Tue Jan 19 00:00:09 2016
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fustkilashello01:29
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adlai;;later tell bramc PoM - proof-of-memory - because all you're really doing is trying to make an exabyte-scale proof-of-memory07:16
gribbleThe operation succeeded.07:16
adlai;;later tell bramc er sorry, s/\w+$/memory-hard PoW/07:18
gribbleThe operation succeeded.07:18
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ryan-c`Anyone know of a faster-than-brute-force attack on secp256k1 when the first ~200 are known and a signature is available?10:06
ryan-c`(replies may be directed to ryan-c)10:09
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maaku~200 what?13:11
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tromp_presumably 200 bits of private key13:31
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bitcoin-wizards2l13:49
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bramcI'm tempted to write up a FAQ about Bitcoin for crypto experts14:03
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nshgoforit14:04
bramcQ. What's all this stuff about macroeconomics and golbuggism? Isn't goldbuggism not taken seriously by real economists? A. Yes, Bitcoin is a commodity not a currency, just ignore that discussion14:04
bramcQ. What's keeping Bitcoin's price up? Couldn't it swing down to $10 tomorrow? A. Yes it could. Caveat Emptor.14:04
bramcQ. Doesn't Bitcoin mining inherently waste lots of resources doing nothing? A. Yes, it does.14:05
gwillenheh14:05
bramcQ. Doesn't Bitcoin have a hard scaling limit at a not very high amount? What happens when it reaches that? A. Yes it does. At that point fees go up. People are working on net settlement mechanisms to dramatically improve scaling.14:07
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belcherhave you often come across crypto experts interested but ignorant of btc ?14:09
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bramcQ. What is Bitcoin good for? A. Bitcoin is good for transferring value reliably and incontrovertibly. To a lesser extent it's good at sheltering assets from being seized, but they could be frozen much more easily than people think. There's also some interesting work on smart transactions going on.14:10
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bramcbelcher, Yes all the time in crypto circles. Often they've looked into bitcoin enough to be aware of its puke-inducing characteristics and are either turned off by them or think they misunderstand or think that bitcoin partisans are a bunch of liars who misrepresent what it is.14:12
kanzurehttp://popeller.io/index.php/2016/01/19/weak-blocks-the-good-and-the-bad/14:14
bramcThese people always find it reassuring that there's a core group of devs who are well aware of all the problems and don't bullshit about them.14:15
kanzurebramc: a cryptography-oriented FAQ about bitcoin might be particularly interesting for recruiting reviewers etc. iirc one in particular called bitcoin a "denial-of-service attack on crypto review time".14:17
kanzurewait that's not the quote... what did djb say?14:18
kanzureah, i am thinking of dan kaminsky's slides here: http://www.slideshare.net/dakami/bitcoin-877609814:18
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bramckanzure, It could certainly be expanded into something which is actually helpful for crypto people trying to learn, the basic idea here is to get across the message 'Yes those are all serious issues and we know about them and don't have great solutions'14:19
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kanzurei suppose something like in the spirit of this document? (which was trying to document -wizards lore) https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/asic-faq.pdf14:20
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kanzureah the quote was "Bitcoin is a particularly effective DoS against security professionals"14:22
coinoperated<bramc>: Q. What's keeping Bitcoin's price up?    <---  the more intriguing half of the question remains unanswered14:30
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zookolaptopcoinoperated: What's the more intriguing half? "What's keeping Bitcoin's price down?" ?14:33
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coinoperatedzookolaptop:  the less intriguing half was truncated14:35
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moaWhat is keeping Bitcoin's price down?14:41
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bsm117532moa: -> #bitcoin-pricetalk14:51
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moa:( #bitcoin-pricetalk is invitation only, wish I never knew it existed now, thnx bsm11753214:53
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gwillenmoa: try ##bitcoin, I hear that's a place you can go14:53
gwillenalthough I have not been in it myself14:54
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bramcThat is so annoying15:11
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PeterRStatement: "The expectation value of the time between when a miner solves a block and when 50% of the hash rate has received and validated that block increases with the size of the block mined."15:18
PeterRChoose the best answer:15:18
PeterRA. TRUE15:18
PeterRB. FALSE15:18
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bsm117532PeterR: obviously true.15:21
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PeterRWhat would be the best way to prove that?15:21
kanzurevalidation cost15:22
bsm117532Prove that if A > B, A takes more time to transmit across the network; and block B takes longer to validate.15:22
phantomcircuitPeterR, your question is under specified, is there a single miner which is > 50% of the hash rate?15:22
bsm117532haahaaa phantomcircuit15:22
rustybsm117532: um, no, consider pre-publishing solutions.  The publishing of the coinbase + nonce is all that is required then, which is not proportional to block size.15:22
rustyThis ground has been well covered previously.15:23
kanzurepathological case of exotic block from non-cooperative-pre-publication miner15:23
kanzure*non-pre-publication15:23
phantomcircuitrusty, pre-publishing solutions do not work under adversarial conditions, which we must assume for security considerations15:23
phantomcircuitrusty, the answer to his question is true, unless more than 50% of the hash rate is centralized then false for blocks found by that miner15:24
phantomcircuitwhich is to say that larger blocks inherently cause centralization pressure15:24
phantomcircuitbut im sure he's just trying to manipulate people into answering an under specified question15:24
kanzurei wonder if maaku would agree that bandwidth cost needs to be considered in validation cost metrics15:24
kanzurefor validation cost metrics purely for rating/scoring block contents, i think the answer is no15:25
PeterRbsm117532: would you agree that--ceteris paribus--communicating more *information* takes more time, as per Shannon's carrying capacity theorem?15:25
rustyphantomcircuit: depends on what you're trying to measure.   The question of "is it possible to mine s.t. costs are not proportional to block size" vs "can we force others to mine s.t. costs are not proportional to block size"15:25
phantomcircuitrusty, "s.t." ?15:25
rustyphantomcircuit: such that15:25
kanzurePeterR: the more centralized the network the less information that needs to be propagated15:26
bsm117532PeterR: yes of course.  But the block is artificially time-restricted to be "as fast as possible after creation" (my assumption) so that the weak block ideas spread it out over 10 minutes (rusty's correct comment).15:26
PeterRAgreed.15:26
phantomcircuitrusty, the answer is of course yes, but only if we assume a level of coordination between miners such that they are effectively a single entity15:26
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moakanzure: excellent point ... taking the converse we could show how decentralised the network is by how much information is being transmitted?15:27
kanzurephantomcircuit: that's a non-statement. your other statements were better. :P15:27
PeterRBSM117532: OK good.  Just going over the basics to find the points of contention.15:27
coinoperatedphantomcircuit:   is there a good reason to assume this is not the case?15:27
kanzuremoa: no? anyone can voluntarily saturate their bandwidth. that's not interesting.15:28
phantomcircuitkanzure, if miners are cooperating on transaction selection and pre-propagation then they are effectively a single miner and the system has failed15:28
moakanzure: meaningful information15:28
bsm117532PeterR: if blocks were so big that it takes 10 minutes or more to validate or transmit, you're back to entropy limits.15:28
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kanzurephantomcircuit: huh? i think you mean "if it's mandatory for participation", right?15:28
phantomcircuitkanzure, it *would* be mandatory to participate with sufficiently large block size15:28
kanzurewell okay. right, if centralization pressure (whatever the metric is in aggregate) passes some threshold, yea i could see a run-away effect being more pronounced.15:29
PeterRbsm117532: Dr. Nicolas Houy and Andrew Stone (independently) showed that if a miner *expects* that a block would take > 10 min to propagate/verify, that the Nash equilibrium is to not bother mining on it at all.15:30
kanzurePeterR: btw it is not just 50% of the miners that need to receive the block (or instead of 50%, whatever the largest consensus is necessary to achieve for that 10min period or w/e), it's also the validating nodes on the network that need to receive the block15:30
PeterRIn other words, if a miner publishes a block that I would expect to take 12 min to verify, then I should immediately orphan it.15:31
bsm117532PeterR: You mean someone else's block that you just received?  That makes sense.15:31
phantomcircuitkanzure, there is no known mechanism for improving block relay which works without coordination between miners in transaction selection15:31
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PeterRkanzure: that point is orthogonal to my question.15:31
PeterRbsm: yes.15:31
kanzurePeterR: perhaps if you only want mining .... but nobody wants only mining. it's useless.15:31
maakukanzure: I suspect the concerns are separable. By adopting a validation-cost metric with a witness discount, and combining that with probabilistic validation we can remove validation cost as an active concern15:31
phantomcircuitkanzure, and actually thinking about it more as blocks become larger the cost of that coordination would grow non-linearly unless there was a single central entity selecting transactions15:31
kanzuremaaku: oh. okay then.15:32
bsm117532PeterR: likewise in the absence of code-imposed artificial restrictions on block size, there's a Nash equilibrium maximum block size that can be computed.15:32
maakukanzure: then we do something else (e.g. something weak blocks derived) to address bandwidth concerns15:32
PeterRexactly!15:32
phantomcircuitPeterR, are you going to at least re-state the question such that it is fully specified?15:32
kanzurethere's no possible way that it's orthogonal to your question unless you don't mean bitcoin mining15:32
kanzureif you don't mean bitcoin mining then you should have said so :-)15:32
PeterRNo, because I asked for the "best" answer.15:33
maakukanzure: i mean both need to be addressed, but not necessarily by the same mechanism15:33
phantomcircuitmaaku, weak blocks at best result in a 50% bandwidth reduction (literally best case and unachievable in practice)15:33
kanzuremaaku: indeed. limit can be separate from the validation cost metric. seems reasonable to me.15:33
bsm117532PeterR: You're one of those people that writes SAT tests, aren't you...15:33
phantomcircuitPeterR, then your question is intentionally deceptive and you should feel bad15:33
PeterR:P15:34
kanzurei feel bad about almost everyone all the time. so it works out.15:34
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maakuphantomcircuit: by weak blocks I'm including a whole category of things like bitcoin-ng, braids, dag trees, etc.15:34
PeterRThe tongue out was at BSM, not you phantomcircuit15:34
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maakuphantomcircuit: that's less about bandwidth reduction so much as not making transmission of the tx data in the critical path for block relay15:34
bsm117532Speaking of which, I'm gonna switch locales and pound out, now that I'm done with company stuff for the day... *sigh*15:34
phantomcircuitmaaku, all of those require the transaction data to be sent at least once15:35
phantomcircuitmaaku, ok, still doesn't even begin to address initial block synchronization costs15:35
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kanzurePeterR: "use the same pool" is not the same thing as "use slightly more efficient block propagation techniques"15:35
dgenr8PeterR: you might need to say "does not decrease"15:36
maakuphantomcircuit: yes, but right now in an adversarial case the entire block must be sent within say 30s of the block being found15:36
kanzurewtf he left that's not fair15:36
maakuif we can at least spread that out over the full 10min we could reduce bandwidth requirements by an order of magnitude15:36
phantomcircuitkanzure, i told you it was a trap15:36
phantomcircuithe's a genuinely bad person15:37
maakubut existing ways for doing that (e.g. IBLT, relay network) do not have adversarial guarantees. it's possible an advsarially secure alternative exists with weak blocks, dag trees, etc.15:37
phantomcircuitmaaku, uhm... an adversarial miner simply doesn't send their weak blocks15:37
kanzurei am confused as to why phantomcircuit has had to explain adversarial mining to rusty and maaku15:37
kanzureis there an actual disagreement here? what is it.15:37
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maakukanzure: phantomcircuit is confused about what things like bitcoin-ng are promising15:38
smoothbad person is unfair but i do think his behavior has deteriorated over this conflict15:38
smoothnot alone in that either15:38
kanzurehe didn't say propagation efficiency improvements aren't promising15:38
kanzurehe jsut says they have at most a 50% bandwidth improvement15:38
kanzure50% is pretty great15:38
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coinoperatedthe guy gers pilloried in here every time i see his name mentioned.  surprised he even pops in15:39
coinoperatedgets15:39
kanzureoh i see, maybe some disagreement about initial block synchronization costs15:39
phantomcircuitkanzure, maaku's point is that their goal is to pre-stage the transaction data to avoid a bandwidth spike when a block is found15:39
maakukanzure: 50% is great. But I'm more interested in the 2000% improvement it would yield if it make block transmission not dependent on tx relay15:39
kanzurehave we been actively monitoring initial block synchronization costs15:39
kanzurebecause that's sort of something we must not let explode15:39
phantomcircuitkanzure, which i do not believe can be accomplished if a miner with significant hashing power is acting adversarially15:40
kanzurewhere is the 2000% coming from? why talk about the average case?15:40
coinoperatedkanzure:  has there been a DDoS attack built around spurious initial sync requests yet?   seems like such an obvious exploit15:40
phantomcircuitkanzure, he's talking about latency improvements, not total bandwidth reduction15:41
kanzuresingle packet based on IBLT + weak blocks? that's... look, we're not designing a system where we assume there is agreement.15:41
phantomcircuitkanzure, which is interesting for mining centralization risks; but is completely un-nteresting if you look at the cost to operate a full node15:41
phantomcircuitun-interesting*15:41
coinoperatedjust keep asking for more sync blocks, never save them to disk.  BottomlessBit15:41
kanzureif we want efficient agreement we know how to do that in centralized models15:41
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kanzurebut yea i agree that latency can be improved15:41
kanzure... in the average case.15:41
bramcHas anybody read and understood this paper https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/035.pdf15:42
kanzurebut also, phantomcircuit points out that efficiency improvements might also be centralizing pressures15:42
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kanzurebramc: i haven't looked at that one yet.15:42
maakukanzure: the design question is can we add consensus rules which punish blocks that include transactions not previously seen15:42
phantomcircuitkanzure, this is yet another point where the optimal strategy for miners and the optimal strategy for regular users are radically different15:42
kanzurebramc: thanks for the link15:42
bramcI'm puzzling over what they're claiming their construction does. It seems to be a single thing which is an either/or between proof of space and proof of time15:42
phantomcircuitfor regular system users the optimal strategy is almost always to operate in blocks only mode such that they receive only the block data and maintain nothing in their mempool15:42
maakukanzure: it is surprising that the answer is not a downright no, but more research is needed15:43
phantomcircuitfor miners the optimal strategy is to have all of the transactions possible pre-staged in memory to avoid signature validation and bandwidth costs when a new block is found15:43
kanzurepunishment wont work for censorship resistance, unless you can convince miners to somehow commit to transaction details they haven't seen15:43
kanzurealso, centralizing pressures around punishment could probably harm low-bandwidth miners15:43
maakukanzure: my assumptions regarding maximum acceptable blocks is predicated on block relay taking no more than 30s. if you can presume all txns are pre-staged, then you can take the full 10minute block window to relay for a 20x improvement15:44
phantomcircuitthe only proposal so far that even attempts to reduce the cost of operating a full node is segregated witness and that only works because we dont validate most of the signatures anyways15:44
phantomcircuitmaaku, if that's your metric then you are going to end up overstating what the system is capable of by many hundreds of times15:44
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kanzureyeah i am not sure about that assumption15:45
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maakukanzure: there's basically two approaches. one is mining policy for a majority of miners to share weak blocks and not build on blocks that diverge too far from the "pre-consensus" the weak blocks established15:45
kanzurethere is no such thing as pre-consensus :-)15:45
kanzurethat's like a pre-photon15:45
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maakukanzure: the other is to have a block contain NO transactions, but with a one-use-only signature that they later use to sign the blocks15:45
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maaku*sign the list of transactions15:45
coinoperatedkanzure:  pre-photons conditions exist though15:46
kanzurepre-photon conditions are subject to the same constraints as regular reality15:46
kanzurensh where are you we need you15:46
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nsh(certainly not lurking in the scrollback, muttering to himself)15:47
phantomcircuitmaaku, even if the cost to relay blocks could be reduced to effectively zero under adversarial conditions the cost to complete initial block synchronization must not be so large that no new participant can complete it15:48
maakukanzure: ok. imagine that a >50% mining cabal decided to only build on p2pool blocks, and recent p2pool blocks at that15:48
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nsh'<PeterR> In other words, if a miner publishes a block that I would expect to take 12 min to verify, then I should immediately orphan it.'15:49
nsh(game-theory does not work that way)15:49
nsh(the utility of mining on a block is dependent on how others are going to treat it, not your personal calculation)15:50
coinoperatednsh:  isn't this the same thing as saying that calculating a 12 min block time is impossible15:50
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coinoperatedor any arbitrary verification time estimate15:51
PeterRnsh: that15:51
nshyou can always calculate something that approximates the propagation time, that's just a terribly poor proxy for the decision of other miners to proceed on the tip15:51
PeterRthat wasn't my statement15:51
nsh(or wait for a block below the propagation threshold)15:51
PeterRApparently there's a Nash equilibrium.  Miner's should orphan any block they believe will take longer than 10 min to propagate/verify.15:52
nshi don't think anyone who is doing mining is even making such assessments, or has the tools so to do, or knows how to make the tools if they wanted them15:52
PeterR*miners15:52
PeterRNsh: agreed.15:52
nshwell, yes, that's how toy maths works15:52
nshbut the real work depends on what code is running15:52
nshnot what the Nash equilibrium is15:52
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PeterRAnd the code converges to the Nash equilibrium15:53
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* nsh rolls eyes compassionately 15:53
PeterRAs miners learn more15:53
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nshit would be good to simulate what happens when blocks are no longer propagating to some kind of node saturation before the expectation time for the next block15:53
nshthat's definitely something to investigate, as empirically as possible15:54
PeterRkanzure: sorry for leaving for a moment.15:54
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kanzurein the absence of anything but mining, it would make sense to say that 50% (or less) of the hashrate needs to receive a block during propagation, but since the network does intentionally have non-mining fully-validating nodes, they also have to receive their money and blocks15:54
phantomcircuitPeterR, i like how you're listening to the channel after you leave15:54
PeterROn my phone15:54
PeterRyes15:54
* nsh smiles15:55
PeterRNo I'm back on my computer15:55
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PeterRphantomcircuit: you can watch the channel here: https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/15:55
coinoperatednsh:  would it be simpler to just do this with Tx alone, and pretend blocks don't exist, for a naive model.15:56
nshhow do you mean sorry?15:56
coinoperatedultimately even if block prop is "solved"  Tx prop is next15:56
PeterRphantomcircuit: why was my question deceptive?15:57
PeterRStatement: "The expectation value of the time between when a miner solves a block and when 50% of the hash rate has received and validated that block increases with the size of the block mined."15:58
coinoperatednsh:  model bitcoin network as if it propagated Tx without need for consensus mechanism that filters out double spends.  just:  broadcast a Tx, model how fast 51% of the network sees it and can trivially ack to 49%, 48%, 47% that has not seen it.   how long would this take if everyone plays fair15:58
phantomcircuitPeterR, I appreciate that you are giving me the opportunity to educate you on basic logic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma15:59
deegoPeterR: doesn't deception start in the very name, "classic"?15:59
coinoperatedofc everyone wont play fair, but assume they do for a start15:59
nshcoinoperated, right15:59
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AndChat|435584coinoperated: in principle tis  is similar to one tx per block15:59
deegoyou migth as well go a step further and called it "original"15:59
deegocall*16:00
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PeterRdeego: what does that have to do with block propagation?16:00
phantomcircuitcoinoperated, there are essentially two basic strategies for reducing block propagation times16:00
phantomcircuitcoinoperated, one is to send the transaction data which is likely to be in the block in advance of the block, such that sending the block is roughly averaged out over the full 10 minute window; these all require the miners to cooperate (obviously)16:00
PeterRPhantomcircuit: agreed16:01
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AndChat|435584O(1) block propagation essentially16:02
phantomcircuitcoinoperated, the other is to send transaction data after the block is found, the block simply contains a single key and the miner signs new "mini-block" things; at the very best these schemes are significantly more difficult to reason about and the incentives much less clear16:02
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maakuAndChat|435584: what people incorrectly called O(1) block propagation, yes16:03
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phantomcircuitnone of these schemes do anything to address the cost of completing initial block synchronization and as such do not really change the underlying scaling properties of the network16:03
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AndChat|435584maaku: why incorrect?16:03
maakuAndChat|435584: there is overhead16:03
AndChat|435584right16:03
phantomcircuitAndChat|435584, to be clear none of the proposals are O(1), they are at best O(n) where n is the transaction id instead of the transaction data16:03
phantomcircuitbut as i keep saying... the best case is a 50% bandwidth reduction16:04
maakuphantomcircuit: if validatoin from genesis is your metric16:04
AndChat|435584phantomcircuit: Even if the mempools are synced?16:04
phantomcircuitmaaku, the only metric that matters is validation cost from a trusted point16:05
phantomcircuitthe only trusted point at the moment is the genesis block16:06
maakuphantomcircuit: there is room for starting with SPV security from e.g. one year back16:07
phantomcircuitmaaku, that wont matter much if transaction rates increase exponentially16:09
phantomcircuitby definition most of the validation cost will be in the part being validated16:09
PeterRphantomcircuit: I still don't understand why you think the statement:16:12
PeterR "The expectation value of the time between when a miner solves a block and when 50% of the hash rate has received and validated that block increases with the size of the block mined."16:12
PeterRis deceptive16:12
PeterRApples-to-apples, is it true or false?16:13
nshit's more true than not true16:17
nshwill that do?16:17
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coinoperatedphantomcircuit:  latter one is the generic description of all weak block strategies, right?   ty btw16:18
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phantomcircuitcoinoperated, the former is weak blocks, the latter is bitcoin-ng16:19
coinoperatedphantomcircuit oh ok I though bitcoin-ng was itself a form of weak block proposal.16:21
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dgenr8PeterR: s/increases/is nondecreasing/16:23
PeterRnsh: are you saying that there are certain apples-to-apples cases where it is not true?16:23
PeterRdgern8: yes I think it would be always true if I said nondecreasing.16:25
PeterRSounds like nsh thinks it there are apples-to-apples cases where it is not true, if I say "increasing"16:25
phantomcircuitcoinoperated, no bitcoin-ng proposes that miners do PoW on a block that contains a signing key and then create mini blocks after that with the signing key until a new miner finds a PoW block16:26
phantomcircuitcoinoperated, it complicates the incentives for a number of reasons16:26
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nshit's just not a linear relationship and one should be cautious suggesting it is beyond the regime in which that is a fair approximation. it's a nonlinear relationship that's monotonic until you reach a point where either logic or human behaviour changes result, imposing nonlineararity and unpredictability16:27
nsh*changes as a result16:28
PeterRincreasing does not mean linear16:28
nshi know16:28
PeterRt^2, log(t) are increasing functions16:28
nshcommon people read between the lines. bad people write between the lines16:28
nsh:)16:28
PeterRSounds like you think the statement is true then, as long as it is clarified that increasing != linear.16:29
PeterRYes?16:29
nshthe problem, and i may be assuming a lot, is that the way the question is phrased makes it sound like a point in a larger argument, and i can just foresee that larger argument being predicated on an assumption of simplified behaviour that doesn't hold16:30
nshand that would be bad16:30
nshbut it's true enough with whatever caveats you think are appropriate. where you take it matters more :)16:30
nsh(of course i'm probably just jaded and cynical because i've observed a lot of poor arguments based on seemingly reasonable observations, by virtue of being alive and paying attention for a few decades)16:31
kanzurensh: http://pastebin.com/jFgkk8M3 (read this very carefully)16:31
kanzure(re: assumptions)16:32
coinoperatedphantomcircuit, OIC.  Sort of a HAM mode for PoW,  get more Tx per 10 minute consensus frame than normally possible by spreading them out, chained to a base block16:32
nsh(it seems inevitable that we will move eventually to spread out the network block load, through some mechanism that or another)16:33
nsh(segwit seems as good as any other to me, but i'm not remotely authoritative)16:33
PeterRPersonally, I like weak blocks / subchains.16:34
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PeterRBut I'm interested to learn more about bsm's work on braids / DAGs16:34
nshif you just reason in terms of the utility/urgency of network communications between nodes, there's a large spike at block discovery. that is not required by the cryptographic nor incentive system16:35
nshit's just a byproduct of how those were wed initially16:35
phantomcircuitof course you would like something that only works under non-adversarial conditions16:35
maakuguys let's be civil16:35
nsh+116:35
PeterRagreed.  We slowly build up the block over the full 10 min.16:35
PeterR*should16:35
phantomcircuitmaaku, why? he's obviously trying to get an out of context quote for something16:36
kanzuremaaku: talking about adversarial conditions is civil16:36
phantomcircuiti see no reason to treat someone with any respect who is so obviously being manipulative16:36
PeterRI assume you're referring to me.  How am I being manipulative?16:36
kanzurewhat disrespect has been shown? it's highly respectful to remember someone's previous behavior and assumptions and falsities.16:36
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PeterRI am trying to understand the way certain people here think about block propagation.16:37
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kanzuredoes that include full node block propagation?16:37
PeterRSpecifically, I was interested in a true/false answer to the statement:16:38
PeterR"The expectation value of the time between when a miner solves a block and when 50% of the hash rate has received and validated that block increases with the size of the block mined."16:38
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PeterRSounds like is we clarify that increase != linear, then people agree the answer is TRUE (apples-to-apples)16:39
kanzureyes he is saying it is manipulative because you have failed to share broader context and other assumptions16:39
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moait is a slippery tactic that has been used repeatedly, particularly when then refusing or disassembling later when challenged about omitted assumptions16:41
PeterRThis is how we would explain it in physics:  we place an observe near all miners on the network, each observer has a synchronized clock.  We observe the network produce a great number of blocks and measure the results.16:41
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phantomcircuitPeterR, it is deceptive to request a true/false answer to a question for which neither true nor false is an appropriate answer16:41
PeterRWill the empirical answer be TRUE or FALSE?16:41
moais PeterR TRUE or FALSE ... you decide16:42
phantomcircuitoh i see you have gathered some data and are looking to show how stupid we are16:42
moait is FOX news level discussion16:42
PeterRClearly there would be an answer, phantomcircuit.16:42
phantomcircuitmaaku, i dont think my previous statement that he's a bad person is strong enough16:42
phantomcircuitPeterR, you're a terrible human being16:42
MrHodl^16:43
PeterRBecause my questions and comments force you to re-think your assumptions?16:43
phantomcircuitno because you have clearly gathered data which shows the answer to be either true or false under the current network conditions and are looking to gather answers to the question such that you can discredit people without acknowledging that your data does not cover more adversarial network conditions16:44
moayou are now going to draw an absolute conclusion form your spherical cow analysis, say that bitcoin-wizards "agreed" and then make a pretty coloured gif animation and post it all over the forums for dramatic effect ... we know how this movie ends16:44
bsm1175321Are you guys still arguing this?  I just thought it was a bit deceptive because of the word "best" when there are multiple valid answers, depending on your assumptions...16:44
PeterRThis is science; we ask questions and run experiments to answer them.  The outcome of an experiment is the ultimate arbtrar.16:45
PeterRbsm1175321: I clarified the thought experiment:  You place an observe with a synchronized clock near each miner and observe thousands of blocks while making measurements.16:46
moaexpect you are cherry-picking analysis and data to support you pre-determind outcomes ... that's called pseudo-science16:46
moas/except/expect16:46
PeterRWhat data?16:46
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phantomcircuitPeterR, True or False, Larger blocks result in a super-linear increase in the cost of joining the bitcoin peer-to-peer network16:46
PeterRApples to apples, I would say true.16:47
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PeterRIf by join you mean verifying the entire blockchain.16:47
maakuI think we should all try to be professional here. If someone is asking a legitimately on-topic question relevant to the discussion at hand, and it is not inappropriately loaded or framed, I'd prefer that we engage with good intentions.16:48
maakuFor example recent events have certainly given me some negative emotion towards Gavin, yet he showed up recently asking about cost metrics and I helpfully pointed him towards nickler and instagibbs.16:48
bsm1175321^^^^^ maaku16:48
maakuTurns out he just wanted to make sure segwit was using an updated metric, but if I assumed it was something XT related I'm sure things would have gone sour unnecessarily.16:48
bsm1175321hear hear16:49
phantomcircuitmaaku, i agree; but his original question was clearly loaded16:49
coinoperatedi was about to ask what join means, but, hmm..16:49
zookolaptopHooray for professionalism and tolerance.16:49
PeterRphantomcircuit: by the way, I haven't gathered any data as you suspected.  I am trying to figure out how certain people think about block propagation.16:50
phantomcircuitcoinoperated, the purpose of the question was to demonstrate that an under specified question requiring a true/false is not useful16:50
eamonnwis that called a false dichotomy?16:50
phantomcircuitcoinoperated, you'll notice that he qualified his answer by first specifying what he defined as "joining the network"16:50
phantomcircuiteamonnw, yes16:50
phantomcircuitPeterR, frankly i do not believe you; that being said16:54
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moaphantomcircuit: I don't believe him either ... he has argued in bad faith on multiple forums for too long to be trusted a priori16:56
phantomcircuit"The expectation value of the time between when a miner solves a block and when 50% of the hash rate has received and validated that block increases with the size of the block mined; unless a single entity performs transaction selection for more than 50% of the hashing power." is True (and maybe it's the selfish mining threshold and not 50%)16:56
PeterRThanks for answering.16:57
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nsh(even this assumes, e.g. that there is no propagation-affecting mechanism being run by nodes/miners on the basis of blocksize. there's no reason a priori to believe that larger blocks will be relayed differently, but there's not much more reason to assume they won't, especially as saturation starts to affect behaviour as people try to compensate/game the resultant instability)17:24
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PeterRAlright, thanks for everyone's time. Have a good night.17:31
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kanzure"the outcome of an experiment is the ultimate arbitrar" that's not how science works17:46
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TaekI think it will end up being possible to establish "preconsensus" in adversarial modes. If someone strays too far from preconsensus, you ignore their blocks. And if full nodes commit their txns to preconsensus structures (like weak blocks), you get full nodes that can participate in the transaction selection process without needing mining hardware17:51
Taekat that point it's less preconsensus and more consensus around a whitelist of transactions17:52
Taekthe whitelist is allowed to contain double spends17:52
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Taekand uncertain ordering17:52
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Taekand then the full block finalizes the whitelist in to a single, ordered, nonconflicting set of transactions17:53
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instagibbscan you give an example of non-mining pre-consensus?17:54
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Taekmost of my ideas involve weak blocks. Anything else I can think of is somehow permissioned17:55
Taeki.e., NG17:55
instagibbshashcash rules everything around you17:55
instagibbsah yeah sure NG fits that17:55
Taekhashcash is a great way to ratelimit things without needing identity :)17:55
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phantomcircuitTaek, i've yet to see a proposal for pre-staging of transactions which credibly provides an incentive to actually use the mechanism18:22
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Taekphantomcircuit: for sufficiently small miners, increased propagation speed is incentive enough, isn't it? (granted, we don't have an ecosystem of 'sufficiently small miners', but still)18:23
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phantomcircuitTaek, the incentive must exceed the advantage for miners larger than 33%18:28
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Taekif miners refuse to acknowledge blocks that don't leverage preconsensus, then there is incentive. You have to be careful though that you don't introduce subjectivity18:32
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phantomcircuitTaek, there's no guarantee of a weak block, so you cannot use them in consensus enforcement18:34
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maakuphantomcircuit  handwave, miners could preferentially not build on blocks violating the pre-consensus, weighted by how much they differ, at least getting us back to 50% security, or 33% with active withholding18:36
maakuHandwave again18:36
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phantomcircuitmaaku, me thinks there's too much handwaving there :P18:37
Taekphantomcircuit: if there are no weak blocks, you could just enforce that the block size be 018:38
Taekmore realistically, you'd leverage weak blocks from the previous N strong blocks, and there'd be little chance of 0 weak blocks in total18:38
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ryan-cmaaku: yes, first 200 bits of private key (are zero)18:45
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kanzurewould it make sense to not reward miners for mining a merged-mined chain? e.g. zero subsidy on the merged-mined chain.18:47
ryan-cmaaku: in some cases, more than that.18:47
phantomcircuitkanzure, why?18:47
kanzurephantomcircuit: trying to think of how to do a hard-fork without double minting. you know, plausibly-safe-ways to do a hard-fork or sidechain or merged mined chain that doesn't completely destroy everything.18:48
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phantomcircuitkanzure, the extension blocks thing adam3us mentioned18:49
phantomcircuitbasically sidechain merged mined and enforced18:49
kanzureyep that's right, don't know what i was thinking.18:50
kanzureoh right, it's not a hard-fork.18:50
phantomcircuitkanzure, at this point i really dont see any strong argument for doing a hard fork... ever18:52
kanzuresecurity emergencies18:53
bsm1175321phantomcircuit: The number of UTXO's that will ever fit in a 1MB block is fixed.  1MB/10min will forever limit the scalability of bitcoin.  A hard fork will be necessary eventually.18:54
kanzurephantomcircuit: other thing to point out is that a hard-fork for changing, say, block size, actually upgrades the capacity of the hard-forked chain, not the original chain :-).18:54
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bsm1175321phantomcircuit: even if every tx in the 1MB block was pay-to-any and everything else hidden, the tx rate is still way too low for worldwide domination.18:54
kanzurebsm1175321: there's a number of alternatives on the horizon, such as segwit for zero-conf smart contract transactions, which allow for massive scalability of zero-conf transactions with non-zero security18:54
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kanzurebsm1175321: also, there are handwavy moon math methods to have a blockchain theoretically grow sublinearly over time instead of linearly or higher.... so i don't think your assumption is correct.18:55
bsm1175321kanzure: handwavy moon math refs?18:56
Taeksecurity emergencies are a good reason to hardfork without warning. But then that also means that nobody is going to be sleeping for at least a week18:56
bsm1175321And thank you for being our de-facto librarian!  ;-)18:56
kanzureTaek: sha256 broken would be an amazing reason to lose sleep over, it would be my privilege18:57
maakuryan-c I would not have said what those bits are on an open channel18:57
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kanzurebsm1175321: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/bitcoin/scalingbitcoin-review.pdf18:57
kanzure10:06 < ryan-c`> Anyone know of a faster-than-brute-force attack on secp256k1 when the first ~200 are known and a signature is available?18:58
kanzure10:09 < ryan-c`> (replies may be directed to ryan-c)18:58
* bsm1175321 comforts kanzure for having to explain big-o notation...18:59
ryan-cmaaku: The wallets are already empty.18:59
bsm1175321kanzure: you weren't at scaling bitcoin II were you?19:00
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ryan-cmaaku: If they had BTC in them I'd be more subtle.19:00
kanzurei was watching you and judging you the whole time19:00
bsm1175321bastard.  You should have introduced yourself.  :-P19:01
kanzurei was on the interwebs. not in person.19:01
bsm1175321Booo electronic tubes.19:01
bsm1175321So, moon math aside, old nodes must see, at a minimum, address and balance for every utxo.  This implies a scaling limit. Moon math implies payment channels?19:02
ryan-cmaaku: Mind if I PM you?19:02
maakuSure19:02
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phantomcircuitbsm1175321, extension blocks as a soft fork essentially increase the size of the block without forcing current users to move to new software19:11
phantomcircuitpersonally i do not want to be even a little responsible for someone losing money because everybody else has moved to a new chain19:12
bsm1175321phantomcircuit: That is not a soft fork.  Old nodes do not have a full utxo set.19:12
bsm1175321You have to know that the recipient has upgraded their wallet, communicating node.19:12
phantomcircuitbsm1175321, extension blocks are essentially a sidechain which is enforced in the main consensus by "upgraded" nodes19:12
phantomcircuitbsm1175321, that's true, but coordinating with the recipient on which extension blocks they support is systemically easier than literally everybody moving to a new chain19:13
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bsm1175321Oh, that mechanism.  There are many ideas about extension blocks.19:14
bsm1175321I don't fully understand that... who holds the keys for the extension block UTXO?  Are they publicly distributed to upgraded nodes?19:15
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phantomcircuitbsm1175321, keys?19:16
phantomcircuitbsm1175321, the extension block is merged mined at 1:1 difficulty with bitcoin19:16
bsm1175321Bailing-in to an e.g. CLTV locked txn requires a key, no?19:17
bsm1175321Otherwise the old node can't validate it.19:17
bsm1175321Or is it an anyone-can-pay situation?19:17
phantomcircuitbsm1175321, it would look like anyone-can-spend19:18
maakubsm1175321 for the record, that's the only extension block propoaal19:18
phantomcircuitbut actually can only be spent if the extension block allows19:18
bsm1175321maaku: I admit to not having studied it or understand it.19:18
bsm1175321Ok cool, will look.19:18
bsm1175321Where is the proposal?19:18
maakuThere are many other misconceptions about what extension blocks are, but all actual proposals involve segregated utxo sets19:19
bramcUh... what are extension blocks?19:20
phantomcircuithttps://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-May/008356.html19:22
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bramcphantomcircuit, Ah that, thanks19:24
bsm1175321FWIW, we all need to make more noise about segregated utxo sets, and the possibility to soft-fork capacity increases.19:27
bsm1175321I'm fucking tired of this hard-fork debate.19:27
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kanzurebramc: extension blocks are also mentioned here, in a summary post about different soft-fork types, http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/012173.html19:29
bramcbsm117532 classic seems to view making a hard fork as a value unto itself, absent any technical justification whatsoever19:29
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bsm1175321bramc: I think people don't understand the nuances, and want desperately to see a capacity increase.  A commitment by core to an expansion block mechanism (regardless of what's in that expansion block or how it's created) would help.19:30
kanzurethey have been shown many non-hard-fork capacity increases, so i would submit to you, bsm1175321, that their concern is not actually about capacity increases :)19:31
bsm1175321kanzure: This topic is far more than a non-software-dev can reasonably absorb, I would submit.19:31
bramcbsm117532 But capacity increases can have very negative consequences: Fewer full nodes, lower mining rewards19:31
bsm1175321bramc: That's better than forking non-upgraded nodes off the chain, no?19:31
kanzurebsm1175321: (indeed i would say that their concerns are actually the result of too much technical explanation, and not enough soft explanation, but this is quickly becoming off-topic for this channel)19:31
bsm1175321kanzure: Happy to go to bitcoin-dev or elsewhere, this is clearly near term.19:32
kanzurebsm1175321: how about pm?19:32
bsm1175321sure19:32
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