| --- Log opened Wed Jan 20 00:00:10 2016 | ||
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| Taek | What if... instead of giving transaction fees to the miner, you threw transaction fees into the void. Then, the amount of work that needed to be done by the block was decreased proportional to the amount of coins thrown away. This financially incentivizes the miner, but decreases the total revenue available to miners. Less revenue means less room for economies-of-scale sized mining operations, which might mean greater decentralization. It will | 00:51 |
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| Taek | definitely mean less POW on the chain though. | 00:51 |
| smooth | and when the subsidy runs out? | 00:53 |
| Taek | But, I might prefer a mining ecosystem that had 10x the miners and 1/10th the POW security. | 00:53 |
| smooth | oh i know, negative difficulty :) | 00:53 |
| Taek | when the subsidy runs out you give up :) | 00:53 |
| smooth | pretty much my view anyway | 00:53 |
| Taek | you could allow fees, and then have throwing away fees be worth some function of the number of fees thrown away vs. the total number of fees in the block, such that the optimal point means a miner is taking both transactions with fees and transactions that throw away fees. | 00:55 |
| Taek | A related construction would allow transactions with POW in them to reduce the amount of POW needed in the block. This means someone has to do the POW on the txn in real time, but might encourage a bunch of users to get mini-miners or something | 00:56 |
| smooth | why would a miner care between taking fees and lower difficulty ? seems the same to me | 00:56 |
| Taek | if the reward is 0 then there's no reason to elimiate work. | 00:56 |
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| smooth | i thought we'd already given up on that :) | 00:57 |
| Taek | At lower bounds, there's clearly a reason to take fees over work reduction | 00:57 |
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| smooth | the pow in tx is potentially interesting though. running numbers on it seems hard to have non-delegated pow on mobile though | 00:58 |
| smooth | considering that an entire battery charge on a phone is like 1/10 cent | 00:58 |
| Taek | and the people doing POW on their transactions still don't get to influence what other transactions the miner chooses to put into a block, which has become a bit of a holy grail for me | 00:59 |
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| Taek | I recently realized that miners are untrusted entities, and since that moment I've taken an interest in finding ways to limit their power or strongly incentive specific actions | 00:59 |
| smooth | miners are untrusted in so far as either there are no thin clients or the half baked fraud proof scheme actually works entirely | 01:02 |
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| smooth | if everybody waits a long time to accept payments, that's good enough for *individual* miners to not be trusted | 01:04 |
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| Taek | miners can still censor transactions | 01:08 |
| MRL-Relay | [smooth] collectively yes | 01:09 |
| smooth | assuming insufficient motivation for new mining entrants | 01:10 |
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| Taek | they'd do it the same way you'd do a soft-fork. If miners decide that they want a soft-fork, there's not much full nodes can do to fight back besides dump the price. | 01:13 |
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| Taek | especially when basically all of China is one coherent entitiy, that's not exactly comforting | 01:13 |
| smooth | mostly agree | 01:13 |
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| smooth | but there is a bit of a fallacy of composition here | 01:13 |
| smooth | "miners" is not an entity | 01:13 |
| Taek | they do have to make a collective decision, and I do find it much less likely that they'd collectively make an evil decision, even when there are only 10 of them. But if government, police, or military pressure starts to appear, that might change. | 01:14 |
| smooth | there also have to not be other potential entrants willing to enter | 01:15 |
| smooth | and there indeed may not be, but that is a requirement | 01:15 |
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| instagibbs | zookolaptop, congrats on the unveiling of zcash. Looking forward to hearing about the latest tech | 09:39 |
| zookolaptop | instagibbs: thanks! | 09:40 |
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| kanzure | Taek: welp, it would particularly suck to throw away "erroneous" transaction fees, into the void, e.g. no more "oops i sent you 250 BTC as a transaction fee" recovery stories. | 09:52 |
| kanzure | Taek: so was this transaction fees thrown away only, or the entire subsidy? | 09:53 |
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| waxwing | zookolaptop: the forum link at the bottom of your blog post has a dangling '.' | 09:56 |
| zookolaptop | waxwing: thanks! | 09:57 |
| waxwing | zookolaptop: has the need for special setup as in earlier designs been avoided? | 09:59 |
| instagibbs | I'm more interested in the finit-size accumulator | 10:02 |
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| kanzure | where is the zcash-dev mailing list? | 10:05 |
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| kanzure | setup procedures don't seem to be described https://github.com/Electric-Coin-Company/zcash/blob/293e4f015b811a03e4059cab38c92e7b42978bcc/zcutil/fetch-params.sh | 10:22 |
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| waxwing | kanzure: is there some kind of paper for zcash, do you know? | 10:25 |
| zookolaptop | There are two relevant papers. | 10:25 |
| kanzure | there are many papers about zerocoin things. | 10:25 |
| zookolaptop | Unofrtunately only one is linked from https://z.cash/tech.html at the moment. | 10:25 |
| zookolaptop | We're busy updating the site right now. | 10:25 |
| zookolaptop | I haven't even had time to read the Wired article yet! | 10:25 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/snarks/SNARKs%20for%20C:%20Verifying%20program%20executions%20succinctly%20and%20in%20zero%20knowledge.pdf | 10:25 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Zerocash:%20Decentralized%20anonymous%20payments%20from%20Bitcoin%20(extended%20version)%20-%202014-05-18.pdf | 10:25 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Zerocoin:%20anonymous%20distributed%20e-cash%20from%20bitcoin.pdf | 10:26 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/zerocash-extended-20140518.pdf | 10:26 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/zerocash-oakland2014.pdf | 10:26 |
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| WyzBTC1 | What is this zcash | 10:27 |
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| kanzure | and this is sorta relevant http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/snarks/Secure%20sampling%20of%20public%20parameters%20for%20succinct%20zero%20knowledge%20proofs.pdf | 10:27 |
| r0ach | the wired article basically says it's a narco money laundering applicatoin which will result in "more sex slaves being sold" or something or other | 10:27 |
| zookolaptop | kanzure: that's the one I was thinking of! Thanks. | 10:27 |
| zookolaptop | r0ach: shit. I'm glad I don't have time to read it then. ☹ | 10:27 |
| zookolaptop | Does it mention rhino poaching? | 10:28 |
| waxwing | so do i understand that the paper linked here (the zerocash technical paper): http://zerocash-project.org/paper is what we should read? | 10:28 |
| r0ach | yes, it does actually | 10:28 |
| zookolaptop | HAHA | 10:28 |
| kanzure | your server is slow, dropped to 2 MB/sec for your massive mpc setup common reference string key thing | 10:28 |
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| ebfull | kanzure: those keys are not MPC, MPC will have to come in a few months after those papers are revised and the code is completed | 10:37 |
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| zmanian_ | My mental model is that being able to trade in and out of a full fungible currency like zcash will increase the effective fungibility of bitcoin, et al. Effectively asking as a fully trust worthy coin mixer assuming reasonably liquidity. | 10:38 |
| zmanian_ | *asking = acting as | 10:39 |
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| fluffypony | zmanian_: no, moving in and out currently requires trusted third-parties | 10:40 |
| fluffypony | so there's no more advantage for Bitcoin, at least no more than using Monero for that purpose | 10:40 |
| fluffypony | JoinMarket does a much better job of adding privacy to Bitcoin than Monero or ZeroCash | 10:40 |
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| zmanian_ | fuffypony: Thinking about the differences between ledger analysis can deanonymize you vs your counter parties can deanonymize you | 10:46 |
| MRL-Relay | [othe] as long as the main chain does not provide you any privacy it´s questionable; and miners can still censor transactions etc | 10:47 |
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| nwilcox | fluffypony> zmanian_: no, moving in and out currently requires trusted third-parties | 12:02 |
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| nwilcox | What's the status of atomic cross chain swaps? I had the impression that mechanism works today with Bitcoin, except for potential malleability issues. | 12:02 |
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| nwilcox | -and some of CLTV, CSV, and/or segwit will fix the lingering issues. | 12:03 |
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| pigeons | nwilcox: all i know are the scripts from amiller and TierNolan. Then sergio lerner was going to do a whole project or exchange with something similar, but that seemed to go away | 12:21 |
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| maaku | nwilcox: atomic cross chain swaps works today, yes | 12:22 |
| fluffypony | I would've added "right now" to the end of that, but I thought it was implicit | 12:23 |
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| nwilcox | I guess even with ACCS there's a coordination problem that is only served by third parties today (eg: no third-party-free order book). | 12:26 |
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| pigeons | put the orders in a dht | 12:32 |
| pigeons | can you say dht in this channel again? | 12:32 |
| helo | dht | 12:35 |
| fluffypony | just put the orders on the blockchain! | 12:36 |
| pigeons | need to pull request "classic" if they've thought of switching to a dht | 12:36 |
| fluffypony | pigeons: just tell them to synchronise the mempool | 12:38 |
| fluffypony | with voting | 12:38 |
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| pigeons | you know that's next for real | 12:42 |
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| nwilcox | broadcasting orders to a dht/blockchain allows some participants in said medium to front-run orders (by reacting to them before they are generally known to the public). | 12:57 |
| nwilcox | -at least with the naive approach. | 12:58 |
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| nwilcox | I don't know how much of an issue that would be. | 12:58 |
| adlai | nwilcox: ACCSs are "frequent batch auctions" so to front-run effectively, you need to mine your own swaps | 12:59 |
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| pigeons | doesn't namecoin do some encoding or locking to keep name operations from being censored or grabbed first | 13:00 |
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| nwilcox | adlai: I'm not familiar with frequent batch auctions, nor exchange protocols in general. Doesn't ACCS require two committed participants who agree on a price up front? (If so, it must initialte after an order is matched, right?) | 13:01 |
| nwilcox | pigeons: For the namecoin case a simple commit / reveal suffices. | 13:02 |
| pigeons | yeah i see they just broadcast a hash first | 13:02 |
| nwilcox | There's not much incentive to block a reveal since you cannot insert a commitment before the targetted commitment. | 13:02 |
| nwilcox | By contrast, revealing an order is different, because the MITM can choose whether or not to drop that information or to place their own matching order before the general public gets to decide. | 13:03 |
| nwilcox | So there *is* an incentive to block or "front-run". | 13:03 |
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| adlai | http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/eric.budish/research/HFT-FrequentBatchAuctions.pdf | 13:06 |
| adlai | even once you've found (a) counterparty/ies, ACCS doesn't guarantee trade execution until all stages are sufficiently confirmed | 13:07 |
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| --- Log closed Thu Jan 21 00:00:10 2016 | ||
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