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| nonaTure | hi @ll | 01:22 |
|---|---|---|
| nonaTure | do you know whether following address derivation function is secure? https://medium.com/@yanislav/bitalias-ii-9a6e11e17c0d | 01:23 |
| nonaTure | it kind of reminds me to bip32, just way more simple | 01:23 |
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| fluffypony | "For thin-clients, in order to avoid doing the scanning for stealth transactions by themselves, view keys are introduced" | 01:36 |
| fluffypony | cute, they reinvented CryptoNote's stealth addresses | 01:36 |
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| fluffypony | of course there's no citation | 01:37 |
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| MRL-Relay | [shen] I hope this guy is not in academia... | 02:18 |
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| nonaTure | @ fluffypony I was not so much interested in stealth addresses but the derivation function itself. because if it works, is there still a need for extended public keys? does somebody here really understand the math? | 02:24 |
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| MRL-Relay | [shen] nonaTure, I haven't looked at that guys, but Moneros works as follows (there has been a little bit of discussion on ways of improving this on reddit past couple of days): P = H(rA)G + B is the one time key, r is random, (A, B) are spend and view public keys of receiver | 02:28 |
| MRL-Relay | [shen] then receiver computes H(Ra) + b as the secret key to P, as b is unknown, and you can't solve the DLP for P-H(rA)G = bG without knowning b, this means the key for P is also safe | 02:30 |
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| nonaTure | would be helpful if somebody could look at the bitalias address derivation function. seems to be very practical (easy) in comparison to the complex BIP32 and BIP47 way | 02:31 |
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| MRL-Relay | [shen] nonaTure, looks like the link is doing: H(string)G + B, so it's just the CryptoNote one, but rather than specify the string is rAG = RaG it's just some string (i.e. they are missing the ability to ecdh share it) - | 02:43 |
| nonaTure | 'ecdh share it'? | 02:44 |
| MRL-Relay | [shen] you can pass R via diffie helman to the receiver, if you don't want to reveal it | 02:45 |
| MRL-Relay | [shen] R = rG | 02:45 |
| nonaTure | hm | 02:46 |
| nonaTure | so the cryptonote way would be more efficient, but besides it is the same? | 02:47 |
| MRL-Relay | [shen] yeah, like if you pass a random string by ecdh, since you are hashing it, there is a danger that in the process of passing it some reduction mod curve order or something might happen, which would screw it up | 02:48 |
| nonaTure | is there a need why BIP47 uses an _extended_ key or is the cryptonote way actually a better way to derive many addresses from one single key? | 02:49 |
| nonaTure | sorry, not BIP47, but BIP32 | 02:49 |
| MRL-Relay | [shen] haven't read that maybe someone else can comment | 02:49 |
| nonaTure | it is one of the most important BIPs and a lot of wallets use this method to derive addresses | 02:50 |
| nonaTure | but very complex, so I was looking for a more simple way | 02:50 |
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| MRL-Relay | [shen] nonaTure: ah - "from one single key?" Monero has "two" keys A and B which are packed into a single thingy which is passed around | 02:56 |
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| nonaTure | bip32 and bitalias use just one key | 02:58 |
| MRL-Relay | [shen] how many bytes though? | 03:00 |
| MRL-Relay | [shen] ahh- the bitalias link is using the purposeString for the additional bytes, essentially it's a poor replacement for a second key | 03:01 |
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| fluffypony | so they use a hash of the word "view" ? | 03:06 |
| fluffypony | and they add that to the masterPrivateKey, and extract a privateKey from that | 03:06 |
| MRL-Relay | [shen] ah I didn't even see that - for some reason I was thinking they needed privacy, since they were doing it cryptonote style | 03:08 |
| fluffypony | they do | 03:09 |
| fluffypony | BitCore's PrivateKey() function derives a private key from the bigNum that is passed, as if it were a random seed (from my reading of it) | 03:09 |
| fluffypony | so when BitAlias says "Because having only the private view key one can not spend the coins, the scan process for payments can be delegated to another entity which pings the recipient every time he receives a new payment to a stealth address." | 03:09 |
| fluffypony | but the derivation is literally the same for spend and view keys, except that the view key has a fixed 4-byte hash added to it | 03:10 |
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| MRL-Relay | [shen] hmm, I guess I'm slightly confues since I don't know the bitcore api - but I would assume that .getG().mul(hash(purposestring).add(Pubkey) is doing A = H(string)G + P, if string is always the same, then anyone can compute A from P | 03:18 |
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| * adlai wonders whether ACCSs and decentralized orderbooks are enough of a short-term "idea who's time has come" to warrant their own channel | 03:23 | |
| adlai | they definitely do not involve any moon math or kool krypto, just a bunch of plumbing | 03:24 |
| adlai | and the toilets are leaking! had XT triggered a hard fork last week, the "decentralized exchange" would've existed only as a messy arbitrage between centralized exchanges and individual counterparties | 03:25 |
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| nsh | adlai, what's an ACCS? | 03:53 |
| adlai | "atomic cross-chain swap", aka bip4x (get it?) - https://github.com/TierNolan/bips/blob/bip4x/bip-atom.mediawiki | 03:54 |
| nsh | oh, right | 03:55 |
| nsh | are there good writeups/papers on use of atomic swaps for decentralised orderbooks/exchanges? | 03:55 |
| adlai | not that i'm aware of! | 03:55 |
| * adlai pokes mappum , author of http://github.com/mappum/mercury | 03:55 | |
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| kang_ | ACCS can be done today.. Why is it a BIP? | 03:57 |
| adlai | nsh: not sure if you saw, but i linked yesterday a paper about restructuring markets to batch executions (and treat orders accepted during each batch as auction bids (even if they're an ask...)) | 03:57 |
| adlai | kang_: dunno, there's this fashion lately around writing text instead of code | 03:58 |
| kang_ | I am exploring these too..mercuryex doesn't seem to be an active project though | 03:59 |
| adlai | so #bitcoin-plumbers exists :P | 04:00 |
| adlai | although i suggest discussing bip4x etc in here, until we get explicitly asked to go elsewhere | 04:01 |
| adlai | it's not like we need less awareness of the uselessness of centralized crypto exchanges | 04:01 |
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| adlai | kang_: are you working on something specific or just educating yourself about the prior art? | 04:03 |
| kang_ | if counterparty does not go through the trade, our funds are locked and cannot used in another trade for the duration of timeout | 04:03 |
| adlai | correct, this is a limitation of the 2of2 model. 2of3 introduces a "DoS Mitigation Oracle" who could collude with one side to screw the other, so pick your poison | 04:03 |
| kang_ | adlai: Looking to get into development | 04:04 |
| nsh | adlai, didn't see that. sounds interesting | 04:07 |
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| ibrightly | I was looking at this article the other day and it mentions "the Lightning Network can support non-Bitcoin denominated transactions" - can anyone point me in the right direction for how this would work? | 09:02 |
| ibrightly | https://tonyarcieri.com/on-the-dangers-of-a-blockchain-monoculture | 09:03 |
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| kanzure | ibrightly: http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-September/010909.html | 09:14 |
| kanzure | ibrightly: as a trivial example, atomic transfer protocols already exist | 09:14 |
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| maaku | Colored coins | 09:15 |
| ibrightly | Colored coins trx are LN compatible? | 09:16 |
| ibrightly | and thanks Kanzure - reading | 09:16 |
| maaku | Of course. | 09:18 |
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| JackH | if only we had some FAQ's for better explaining everything | 09:18 |
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| JackH | you guys sit with alot of info we dig out gradually (the rest of us non core devs) | 09:18 |
| ibrightly | I had thought that most colored coin implementations rely upon op_return message data and that this would not be enforced end-to-end on a LN payment channel. | 09:20 |
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| helo | ibrightly: there is no message data needed with colored coin | 09:22 |
| helo | all of the "coloring" is done off-chain | 09:22 |
| kanzure | we could either spend our time developing our spend our time writing FAQs, seems more efficient to just spend time developing | 09:22 |
| maaku | Can be done off chain. I don't know of any implementation that does do this though. | 09:23 |
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| maaku | Likewise I'm sure there are colored coin implementations that are not compatible, because they resuse the sequence field for example. | 09:26 |
| maaku | But the basic idea works, and the most efficient design I know of works with LN | 09:26 |
| ibrightly | Gotcha. OK thanks - something new to think about. | 09:27 |
| zmanian_ | think one need some sort of transaction history linearization to transfer color coins across chains if your clients are only going to watch one chain or SPV type security but that's not really complicated | 09:27 |
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| maaku | Would be nice to have someone who is not a developer take on creating a FAQ for all this. | 09:28 |
| tachys | Is it possible to create a 2 of 2 multisig address without knowing one of the two xpubs beforehand? We want to create an address that that's designed to only be spendable once a Git repo owner and a solver of an GitHub issue on that repo sign the spending tx, but at the same time we need the address to exist before we know the xpub of that resolver so others can send funds to the xpub to incentivize completing the issue. | 09:29 |
| zmanian_ | tachys: Not a conventional multisig. You need to know both pubkeys for the preimage of the redeem script | 09:30 |
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| JackH | I would not mind doing it, but it would require some time with one or more of you maaku | 09:35 |
| JackH | to ensure its all crystal clear and correct | 09:35 |
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| kanzure | JackH: you can get our review time, sure | 11:14 |
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| maaku | Yes, many of us would be available to review | 11:22 |
| maaku | zmanian_ you could possibly construct something where you commit in advance only to the hash of the pubkey | 11:23 |
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| coinoperated | on that note, can we try to choose names for important, user-facing pieces of the system which are based on what the effect of the thing is, rather than based on the internal way it works? RBF is one such example. | 11:29 |
| coinoperated | It should be called something like "upgradable fees" | 11:29 |
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| bsm117532 | The free p2p relay of transactions is a cause of mining centralization, because it enables one to outsource mining. We'd be better off if every transaction had to be mined by the submitter (even if only a little bit). Discuss. | 12:08 |
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| gwillen | coinoperated: any such name is deeply politically contentious though | 12:11 |
| gwillen | coinoperated: for example, people who are in favor of RBF would agree with "upgradeable fees", whereas people who are opposed would insist on something like "allow zero-fee double-spends" or something | 12:12 |
| gwillen | err, zero_confirm_ double-spends | 12:12 |
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| coinoperated | Gwillen: But the prerogative to name something rests with its supporters, naturally. (It can be co-opted by its opponents, of course, if supporters don't take measures to prevent this) | 12:20 |
| * gwillen nods | 12:21 | |
| coinoperated | and supporters don't usually name things by their potential flaws | 12:21 |
| coinoperated | A door is just as validly a "passageway" as it is "a weak point in a wall" | 12:22 |
| coinoperated | but we don't usually think of it in the latter sense | 12:22 |
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| maaku | coinoperated: replace-by-fee *IS* what it does though | 13:02 |
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| maaku | it's not upgradeable fees, unless you are specifically talking about FSS-RBF | 13:02 |
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| coinoperated | maaku: what other use is there for it than to bump the fee on a Tx higher to get it confirmed faster? | 13:08 |
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| maaku | coinoperated: transaction cut though, plus various off-chain resolution schemes | 13:09 |
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| instagibbs | you could also simply combine 2 txns into one | 13:11 |
| instagibbs | although im not sure if you get much of a discount with current code for that | 13:12 |
| coinoperated | Are those uses more meaningful to end users than upgrading fees? I mean in terms of cutting down the frequency of asked questions, naming something by its most common usage makes more sens than describing what it does atomically. | 13:12 |
| coinoperated | sense | 13:12 |
| coinoperated | like calling a doorknob a reciprocating-bolt-shuttle | 13:15 |
| maaku | instagibbs: you save the change addresses | 13:21 |
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| instagibbs | maaku, I more meant I think the current code will make you pay for the transaction you evicted? Unsure. | 13:23 |
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| nsh | instagibbs, how? | 13:36 |
| nsh | a replaced transaction can't be charged. i don't think that would be possible without some kinda hacks | 13:37 |
| maaku | instagibbs: you only pay the marginal cost + epsilon | 13:37 |
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| adlai | maaku: my 2ksat - if people who are not developers write FAQs, then developers end up wasting more time complaining and correcting, and ultimately the only benefit is that somebody might donate a large chunk of humor-time to compile a FQA | 14:01 |
| * adlai would much rather have developers, burned out from coding so long that their dreams render in template boilerplate, swallow their pride and write some text for a change | 14:02 | |
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| adlai | more gratitude than plaintext can deliver is due to waxwing for his work so far on https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/JoinMarket-Docs/ | 14:02 |
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| andytoshi | adlai: IME writing text costs far more burnout points than coding, because "is this good?" is so much harder to measure | 14:23 |
| andytoshi | +1 to "thanks waxwing for all his writing", from me for the CT stuff | 14:23 |
| adlai | "write drunk, edit sober" | 14:23 |
| andytoshi | :) that does help | 14:23 |
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| adlai | drunk developers write unreadably obstruse but highly correct drafts; non-devs (or sober devs with time to burn) can edit them afterwards | 14:24 |
| waxwing | adlai: you're too kind, those docs are at best half baked... i think bitcoin developer reference/guide whatever is a better example. | 14:24 |
| waxwing | of course they will be less half baked when you add to them :) | 14:24 |
| * adlai is not kind enough, mostly just shilling joinmarket | 14:25 | |
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| adlai | but shilling decentralized positive-sum markets that establish a risk-free rate for trust-minimized finance is the best kind of shilling | 14:25 |
| adlai | fun fact: most israelis can't pronounce "shilling point" correctly :D | 14:26 |
| waxwing | is that a pun on schelling point? | 14:26 |
| adlai | it's how they pronounce it | 14:26 |
| AdrianG | so what is this zcash | 14:28 |
| AdrianG | ~/.zcash/bitcoin.conf ..build on top of bitcoin? | 14:28 |
| adlai | at what level are you asking? | 14:28 |
| adlai | at the highest level, zerocash can be considered a black gob of bitcoins which provably does not inflate the currency; some enter, some exit, and you have no idea why; only that no more exited than went in | 14:29 |
| moa | or a white glob | 14:29 |
| * adlai originally wrote "black hole", but that's not correct; there is no "event horizon" | 14:30 | |
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| moa | black box maybe | 14:30 |
| coinoperated | sounds like a capacitor | 14:31 |
| coinoperated | arbitrary frequencies goes in, linear comes out | 14:32 |
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| adlai | these are not helpful analogies... zkp moonmath is bad enough without them :-\ | 14:34 |
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| adlai | AdrianG: ultimately the point is to prove that the currency is not being inflated, and to prove that your ownership of an asset will be respected by the next recipient, without leaking how much who had when | 14:34 |
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| AdrianG | how do they plan to build a company on top of this | 14:58 |
| * adlai leaves the answer to zookolaptop and his investors | 15:00 | |
| adlai | fwiw, a perfectly sound business model is "this technology increases the value of bitcoin by an order of magnitude, so open a giant long and pay us a ramen-rentable salary", but some investors may disagree on this | 15:01 |
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| adlai | funny how the people who buy bitcoin hate paying developers to improve it, and the people who vice versa et cetera | 15:02 |
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| MRL-Relay | [othe] because the only ones buying bitcoin and co are speculators at the momemnt, and it´s all about personal profit. | 15:04 |
| adlai | ah right, but the venture capital industry is about disruption and repurposing tuna trawlers to clear up the plastic patch | 15:05 |
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| instagibbs | maaku, ah, so then I mis-rememebered | 15:16 |
| instagibbs | must be > feerate as well as absolute, plus bandwidth delta | 15:21 |
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| * adlai wonders whether any burned-out wizards, sick of writing code xor text, may enjoy reading https://archive.is/4VFFu | 15:23 | |
| maaku | instagibbs: i could be wrong. we should probably check the code | 15:23 |
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| PeterR | TITLE: "How should the supply of block space be controlled?" | 15:55 |
| PeterR | Ledger is considered soliciting two editorials (not peer reviewed) on this question: one from prominent small-block proponents, and one from prominent big-block proponents. | 15:55 |
| PeterR | Good idea? | 15:55 |
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| TD-Linux | PeterR, that's an odd title, isn't "What should the consensus rule for maximum block size be?" actually what you want? | 15:58 |
| nsh | things trying to be scientific journals should be wary of indulging in 'balanced' editorial nonscience | 15:58 |
| nsh | but maybe they'd be good and edifying and tend towards better appreciation, mutual understanding and eventual rational consensus | 15:59 |
| nsh | i wouldn't wanna take that risk though | 15:59 |
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| PeterR | TD-Linux: I dunno. Rules enforced by miners and nodes is one way to affect the supply of block space. | 15:59 |
| * nsh frowns | 16:00 | |
| PeterR | nsh: it may be a bad idea. One of our Editorial Board members brought it up. | 16:00 |
| nsh | who knows :) | 16:00 |
| coinoperated | nsh: there's only one journal (right now), and it has to cover a lot of ground | 16:00 |
| * nsh nods | 16:00 | |
| PeterR | Personally, I like it. Nature and Science do something similar. | 16:00 |
| nsh | they're magazines | 16:00 |
| nsh | :) | 16:01 |
| PeterR | lol | 16:01 |
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| moa | glossies | 16:01 |
| coinoperated | try to get an article published in either | 16:01 |
| coinoperated | it's no cakewalk | 16:01 |
| coinoperated | even if they are generalist | 16:01 |
| nsh | i don't think you could dynamically vote on blocksize without a massively complex [and therefore almost certainly broken] consensus | 16:01 |
| PeterR | moa: are you suggesting that Nature is not a legitimate scholarly journal? | 16:01 |
| coinoperated | Bitcoin needs almost exactly something in the style of Nature, IMHO. At this stage. | 16:02 |
| nsh | but it's not clear exactly where the degree of control attempted dynamically becomes pathological | 16:02 |
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| nsh | somewhere between setting the difficulty and dynamically changing the validity of blocks i'd say it becomes intractable | 16:02 |
| nsh | but there's no solid theory on this really | 16:03 |
| PeterR | coinoperatated: the is our vision. | 16:03 |
| moa | visions are not quantifiable | 16:03 |
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| moa | nor all that objective unless you get others to join you in your vision | 16:04 |
| maaku | PeterR: it's not a two-sided issue | 16:04 |
| coinoperated | persuasion is not inherently bad | 16:04 |
| PeterR | Moa: what are you referring to? | 16:04 |
| PeterR | maaku: agreed. | 16:04 |
| PeterR | The idea would be to purposely present two honest, but polarized, views. | 16:05 |
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| PeterR | To find the truth, sometimes it is useful to consider the extremes. | 16:05 |
| coinoperated | then one side will emerge with consensus. i see no problem presenting both to make one the foil of the other. plus you might get a nice surprise out of the "wrong" side. | 16:06 |
| kanzure | polarization is irrelevant, the only thing that matters is correctness | 16:06 |
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| PeterR | So, back to the article title: "How should the supply of block space be controlled?" | 16:06 |
| kanzure | you should not subsidy your own views just because it can't pass peer review | 16:06 |
| kanzure | *subsidize | 16:06 |
| PeterR | kanzure: what are you referring to? | 16:07 |
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| kanzure | i don't know how to make that more clear | 16:07 |
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| instagibbs | maaku, I did check the code :) | 16:07 |
| coinoperated | a published Journal is going to get a lot more respect than random doodz pusting links to random papers on IRC. that's what | 16:07 |
| kanzure | i am specifically talking about your polarization. you just mentioned it moments ago. | 16:07 |
| coinoperated | even if the random doodz are right | 16:07 |
| PeterR | Coinoperated: agreed. | 16:08 |
| kanzure | it's irrelevant whether random dudes are random. it really is. | 16:08 |
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| PeterR | Kanzure: the idea was to present two editorials answering the question "How should the supply of block space be controlled?" | 16:09 |
| kanzure | it's wrong to villify irc users. it's true that irc is universally considered awful, but that's no reason to think that ideas expressed over irc are faulty merely because of the medium. | 16:09 |
| kanzure | PeterR: no, you specifically said polarized views.... you said so moments ago. | 16:09 |
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| adlai | PeterR: what length editorial are you seeking, by what deadline? i advocate for block-size reduction and earn a sufficiently sub-epsilon salary writing code to divert some time to writing text | 16:10 |
| coinoperated | PeterR, the word "controlled" does sound a little too obviously polarizing. Is that the best choice? What about "allocated" | 16:10 |
| PeterR | Right. We would solicit one article from prominent intelligent people who lean towards smaller blocks, and another from people who lean towards larger blocks. | 16:10 |
| PeterR | I suspect the two articles would focus on different things. | 16:10 |
| PeterR | And we might all learn something from the exercise. | 16:10 |
| kanzure | polarization is irrelevant | 16:10 |
| kanzure | why spend time on something wrong? either put up or shut up. | 16:11 |
| nsh | unless circular | 16:11 |
| PeterR | Coinoperated: yes, allocated is better | 16:11 |
| kanzure | if your ideas can't pass peer review then you should not subsidize wrong views | 16:11 |
| nsh | (circular polarization is often very important) | 16:11 |
| kanzure | "teach the controversy" is a failure | 16:11 |
| PeterR | Kanzure: so you're saying that you are not in favour of non-peer reviewed articles in Ledger. | 16:12 |
| kanzure | what is the alternative review mechanism if it is non-peer? | 16:12 |
| moa | it might sense if you get the small-block proponent to argue the big-block case and vice-versa (Oxford debate style) or you're just going to end up with usual polemics | 16:13 |
| PeterR | Ledger publishes Original Research articles, Review Articles, and Perspectives (editorials). Only the first two are peer reviewed. | 16:13 |
| adlai | defining corectness on the basis of peer review is not sybil-resistent | 16:13 |
| coinoperated | kanzure, the art of connecting with the public is largely about meeting people where they are, to bring them to where you are. | 16:13 |
| kanzure | adlai: correct | 16:13 |
| PeterR | Moa: interesting idea! | 16:13 |
| adlai | kanzure: i see what you did there! | 16:13 |
| maaku | adlai: meritocracies are sybil-resistent | 16:13 |
| kanzure | adlai: still, he knows the score--- he has to fix the failures in his ideas that have alread been identified, either through peer review or before it, or else he's just wasting our time again | 16:13 |
| maaku | (mostly) | 16:13 |
| adlai | #NotAllMeritocracies | 16:13 |
| kanzure | right, peer review is supposed to identify flaws, not define correctness | 16:14 |
| PeterR | kanzure: this has nothing to do with "my ideas" | 16:14 |
| kanzure | hahahaha | 16:14 |
| kanzure | that's impossible | 16:14 |
| kanzure | you put your name on them! | 16:15 |
| PeterR | We're discussing two articles that each answer the question "How should the supply of block space be allocated?" | 16:15 |
| coinoperated | speaking of Oxford style debates, I wonder if one could be assembled for a teleconferenced event | 16:15 |
| PeterR | Kanzure: they haven't been written yet. | 16:15 |
| PeterR | I'm asking this IRC channel if they think soliciting two such editorials would be a worthwhile exercise. | 16:15 |
| kanzure | i have no reason to assume you have fixed your previous assumptions | 16:15 |
| adlai | PeterR: so you should write a third editorial, advocating that block space should never be changed because the market doesn't know what's good for itself | 16:15 |
| * nsh submits a polemic editorial lambasting discrete options in the abstract | 16:16 | |
| nsh | we should be allowed a continuous range of misinformed opinions on the matter | 16:16 |
| PeterR | adlai: only under a pseudonym. | 16:16 |
| * adlai wonders whether Utilitarian Conservative Bitcoin Universalists should donate a larger percent of their income to p2pool miners or coinbase-tx-only miners | 16:17 | |
| nsh | maybe two very brief speculative fictions about the doomsday scenarios that will inevitably result from [not] changing the BS to blah | 16:17 |
| PeterR | Anyways, if anyone is interested, please let me know. | 16:18 |
| adlai | ooh, speculative fiction! this would increase the mass-appeal of the journal, which clearly needs mass adoption in order to survive and be taken seriously. | 16:18 |
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| nsh | nad we can make the whole thing have a 1950s Popular Mechanics aesthetic | 16:18 |
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| nsh | bitcoin-bubble-top will be ultimate blockchain | 16:18 |
| nsh | nah, but it could be a good move PeterR if you get high quality submissions. good luck :) | 16:19 |
| nsh | it'd be more productive if everyone just read Hegel for a month though | 16:19 |
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| kanzure | which hegel things? | 16:19 |
| nsh | the things about how to engage in a dialectical process | 16:20 |
| nsh | some kind of prehistoric lost art | 16:20 |
| kanzure | i think you mean popper | 16:20 |
| nsh | no. | 16:20 |
| nsh | popper is more of a large-scale sociological-espistemological phenomenon. dialectic with a small d is very much something that should happen with conscious individual and group participation | 16:21 |
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| nsh | the structure of scientific revolutions is more about fashion than reason | 16:21 |
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| moa | nsh: usually recently discovered experimental facts that give rise to 'fashionable' theories | 16:22 |
| adlai | how about William James? http://deedbot.org/deed-393948-1.txt | 16:22 |
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| * nsh nods | 16:22 | |
| nsh | hah, nice moa :) | 16:22 |
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| moa | Popper was a boss | 16:24 |
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| nsh | (one might argue that it's the strange attractors between the laughs at ultimate nothingness or vertiginous amazement at meaningless infinities that make all the difference) | 16:28 |
| nsh | (some might also argue that where shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, drinking largely sobers us again) | 16:29 |
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| PeterR | adlai: I missed your earlier question: we're not sure length yet (this idea just came up today), but I would guess ~2000 - 3000 words (something shorter than a full-length research article). | 16:37 |
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| PeterR | We could decide on anything, however. | 16:37 |
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| PeterR | We'd want the articles towards the end of March, probably. | 16:37 |
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| * adlai could throw something together; picking up the earlier theme of "write drunk, edit sober", and collaborative authorship: the 'perspective'-oriented editorials may be more valuable with several names on top... attributive multisignature | 16:39 | |
| adlai | PeterR: but obviously 2000 words is too much! "640 words should be enough for anybody" | 16:40 |
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| PeterR | adlai: I was thinking some kind of a flexcap: the more words you write, the more typos per page the copyeditors inject. | 16:42 |
| PeterR | :) | 16:42 |
| adlai | to your credit - at least you're able to make fun of yourself! this ability is in precious short regard these days, in this space | 16:43 |
| moa | you mean like clowns? | 16:44 |
| adlai | no, like adults... if this doesn't make sense, maybe it's a cultural thing. men are from mars, women from venus, /me from the circus. | 16:45 |
| moa | ah, self-deprecating humour | 16:46 |
| adlai | yes. | 16:46 |
| maaku | adlai: I'm from mercury you insensitive clod | 16:46 |
| adlai | i thought that was mappum ? | 16:46 |
| adlai | maaku: also, cf "but I am no man..." but tolkein references probably belong in ##bitcoin-slightly-ontopic | 16:47 |
| * adlai floats an equally-offtopic question for this channel: which is more urgently needed: ACCS, decentralized hedging contracts, or general-purpose decentralized counterparty discovery (aka "order book")? | 16:48 | |
| mappum | Adlai: IMO decentralized order book, but it seems hard to solve | 16:51 |
| bsm117532 | I've been thinking a lot about a decentralized order book and matching. | 16:52 |
| * adlai sketched out tonight a highly expensive atomic order matching, which requires an "atomicity provider", and 100% additional collateral; leaves room open for margin lending... | 16:52 | |
| bsm117532 | It's very amenable to a blockchain solution, where instead of a UTXO set, transactions create the book. | 16:52 |
| moa | there is no reason why the price dicovery (order book and matching) needs to be decentralised, it is the settling that is the weak point | 16:53 |
| bsm117532 | moa: It does need to be decentralized. How do I know what rules the centralized order book is operating under? | 16:53 |
| adlai | moa: centralization yields control. even if your exchange isn't front-running, the mere fact that somebody can make millions selling books claiming that it is, turns the ecosystem into a negative-sum game | 16:53 |
| moa | a federated solution is probably adequate | 16:54 |
| bsm117532 | decentralized > federated > centralized | 16:54 |
| * adlai admits never quite understanding where federation redistributes into decentralization | 16:54 | |
| bsm117532 | Or maybe I mean distributed > federated > centralized | 16:54 |
| bsm117532 | federation is a hub-and-spoke network. distributed is random interconnectivity (in my mind) | 16:55 |
| moa | point being it is the transfer of funds where the elimination of a counter party is most beneficial | 16:55 |
| moa | i.e. trusted 3rd party | 16:55 |
| bsm117532 | In maintaining an order book, there is tremendous incentive to cheat to give yourself better prices. It's highly desirable to make that distributed. | 16:55 |
| coinoperated | decentralization wants to be decentralized, it is a goal to avoid centralization pressures even if it incurs overhead costs to do so | 16:56 |
| coinoperated | thats my understanding anyway | 16:56 |
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| coinoperated | decentralization may not work at all in a truly adversarial climate. Actors joining the decentralizaed group have to agree that the costs incurred by it are worth it, as a minimum condition for joining | 16:57 |
| coinoperated | so they self select | 16:57 |
| belcher | in all this decentralized-but-profitable stuff, isnt there a tragedy of the commons inherent that nobody can be incentivized to maintain it? so centralized rent-seeking systems will be better funded and outcompete it | 16:57 |
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| moa | belcher: unless it has a built-in token | 16:58 |
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| adlai | belcher: "In 7 yrs of researchcosting >$6bn, scientists have finally proven that bees can't fly, but nobody told them yet so they keep buying Bitcoin" | 16:58 |
| belcher | right so bitcoin is an exception because it can be owned | 16:58 |
| adlai | and people can make money with less downside in a system where their funds can't get outright stolen | 16:59 |
| moa | well there is 600++ other alts of varying valuations also | 16:59 |
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| belcher | has anyone heard of bitsquare? its a decentralized otc marketplace, not many i imagine, yet everyones heard of localbitcoins which is the centralized equivalent that has money to fund itself | 16:59 |
| adlai | there's a lot of value in trading a small reduction in maximum upside for a massive reduction in maximal downside | 17:00 |
| belcher | nothing against the bitsquare devs, they're great but i can understand why development is going slowly | 17:00 |
| moa | bitsquare has been in 'alpha' for what seems like a long time :( | 17:00 |
| belcher | another example is openbazaar vs a centralized tor marketplace | 17:00 |
| adlai | localbitcoins can go out of business, bitsquare only dies if everybody loses interest | 17:01 |
| belcher | bitsquare isnt even alive | 17:01 |
| adlai | let me rephrase: companies starve when they run out of money; open source / decentralized projects only starve when people run out of time | 17:01 |
| adlai | another example is centralized mixers vs joinmarket. oh wait. | 17:01 |
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| belcher | money can be exchanged for people's time, if something is valuable then its likely it will always be able to raise an income for itself | 17:02 |
| belcher | it would be perfect could be decentralized yet somehow had enough rent-seeking to fund itself | 17:02 |
| * adlai waits, for centralized mixers to publish their volume statistics... or chainalysis to do this for them | 17:02 | |
| belcher | err, *if it could be | 17:02 |
| belcher | adlai walletexplorer.com already has | 17:02 |
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| adlai | it doesn't give me pretty little bar charts of DAUs and MAUs | 17:04 |
| belcher | even the current bitcoin political war might be related to this, block space is not inherently scarce yet it must be made so in order to fund network security after the reward is gone | 17:04 |
| adlai | (that's Daily Active UTXOs, not Users...) | 17:04 |
| adlai | belcher: how about "block space is not inherently scarce so it must be kept so while the reward is still here, to fund network security as the reward disappears" | 17:05 |
| belcher | so tragedy-of-the-commons, individuals would rather not pay higher tx fees so they complain to try to get the limit raised, of course we're homo-economius so plenty recognise a block size limit is good | 17:05 |
| kang_ | belcher: We could switch to PoS after rewards drop to zero.. Give it a thought.. | 17:05 |
| belcher | kang_ PoS doesnt work i thought? the nothing-at-stake problem | 17:05 |
| adlai | kang_: PoW has nothing to do with inflation. if fees are sufficient to cover electricity costs, there's no reason to switch to a less secure system | 17:06 |
| kang_ | belcher: Some claim to have solved it like ethereum's slasher algo.. | 17:06 |
| kang_ | adlai: It does, all PoS coins have origin of money problem | 17:07 |
| adlai | dude what? how does the price of eggs in afghanistan have to do with the paper on which it's printed? | 17:07 |
| kang_ | adlai: And with PoW we'd already have originated all the money by then | 17:07 |
| adlai | PoW is a mechanism for convincing yourself that you'll be able to convince others | 17:08 |
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| adlai | inflation subsidizes an expensive operation for bootstrapping, but satoshi could've wired miners dollars if he hadn't cared for his own privacy | 17:08 |
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| adlai | money doesn't "originate from" anywhere. bitcoins do not represent shares in consumed negentropy. | 17:09 |
| adlai | bitcoin is bitcoin, and PoW is only there because it's hard to fake, so easy to agree that it's not fake. | 17:09 |
| belcher | but marginal utility = marginal cost, so the creator of coins generally has to spend what they're worth on the market | 17:10 |
| adlai | but static friction /= kinetic friction, so markets are inefficient | 17:10 |
| belcher | imagine if you could magic $10k every 10 minutes out of nothing, it seems unreal and it is, nobody gets a free lunch, the only reason miners can is because they burn close to $10k worth of energy at the same time | 17:11 |
| kang_ | adlai: PoW does what you say, but it is also the only known fair mechanism to originate money | 17:11 |
| adlai | they don't magic money out of anywhere! 21M bitcoin already exist, 6M are simply unallocated today. the lottery tells us who can spend them first. | 17:11 |
| kang_ | Same thing | 17:12 |
| dcousens | to be fair, the power stations are doing most of the work, they just don't realise that they are a proxy for PoW :P, the miners are just middlemen with hardware | 17:12 |
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| * adlai wishes https://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/sr/sr218.pdf was on some required reading list, or all of them | 17:13 | |
| adlai | money originates from nowhere, it just gets agreed upon by a bunch of people. if it's harder to fake, then more people can agree on it more readily. | 17:13 |
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| dcousens | adlai: heh, good paper that | 17:14 |
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| adlai | title: "Money Is Memory" also relevant: "A version of this paper circulated under the title 'Money Versus Memory'" but note what they changed the title to, before pubdication. | 17:14 |
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| adlai | dcousens: i'm not enough of a physicist/electrician to compare the "work" done in converting chemical/nuclear potential energy to AC, vs the work done in converting DC to preimage collision seeking[, vs the work done in converting AC to DC] | 17:18 |
| dcousens | s/preimage collision seeking/structure heat creation/ | 17:19 |
| dcousens | structured* | 17:19 |
| dcousens | :p, indeed, I don't know either, just thought it was funny to follow an abstract thought | 17:20 |
| adlai | not to mention gravitational and thermal PE... the only "work" we can get a definite handle on is that of structured heat creation, and even this is done using differening and proprietary apparati | 17:20 |
| PeterR | dcousens: "the power stations are doing most of the work, they just don't realise that they are a proxy for PoW :P, the miners are just middlemen with hardware" | 17:20 |
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| PeterR | the power stations are middle men harvesting power from the water running through the dam's turbine | 17:21 |
| dcousens | PeterR: indeed, it was a recursive argument | 17:21 |
| dcousens | We can go back to the big bang | 17:21 |
| dcousens | Next on CNN: big bang a proxy for PoW in bitcoin... | 17:21 |
| PeterR | I gave a physics talk once called "it all comes from the sun" | 17:21 |
| moa | right now the chip fab plants are doing as much of the work as the running water | 17:22 |
| dcousens | whats great about bitcoin, is that mining is worth exactly what we agree it is worth, as a systemic cost | 17:23 |
| PeterR | Sort of fun to show how what powers (almost) everything here on Earth, came as energy from the sun | 17:23 |
| coinoperated | there was a good post on reddit like 6 months ago, some guy compared PoW to wall clocks, fences with locks, refrigerators keeping food cold, and the universe in general. | 17:24 |
| adlai | "I don't pray to the sun, though. I wouldn't want to presume on our friendship." - George Carlin | 17:24 |
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| adlai | so back to decentralized discovery: the most common complaint appears to be lack of atomicity, which can be addressed by having each offer fund an escrow with an "atomicity provider" (henceforth known as the "Atomizer") | 17:31 |
| kang_ | adlai: Yes money is memory. Since scarcity of bitcoin is fixed, rather than originating it, its the mining lottery. My point was all PoS coins have this initial allocation problem | 17:31 |
| moa | POW turns energy into information so it cryptographic proof that entropy was raised somewhere (using demonstrable negentropy as proof) | 17:32 |
| adlai | so we have Offerer, Atomizer, and Crosser, where the latter is the counterparty placing the offer which crosses books and hits the Offerer's already-placed offer | 17:32 |
| kang_ | adlai: They do not have a fair mechanism for initial distribution of a scarce quantity | 17:32 |
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| coinoperated | kang_: There are hybrid PoW/POS coins that start out a PoW and transition to PoS (in various ways) as an attempt to rectify the distribution problem. But it doesn't since PoW also has initial distribution problems. If you are near the source at the start of distribution, you end up with more for less. In both systems. | 17:39 |
| adlai | Offerer funds 2of2 escrow with Atomizer to place the offer in the book. Crosser funds the 2of2 for the bet (CFD, option, etc) itself (or 2of3 including an Arbitrator) in an atomic swap along with Atomizer and Offerer | 17:39 |
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| kang_ | coinoperated: I feel that that problem is unsolvable and beneficial to spread of a blockchain akin to acquiring shares of new company for cheap | 17:40 |
| * adlai notes that this protocol is roughly six hours old, and uses roughly six times as many tx fees as simply "counterparties find eachother outside of the blockchain, and fund their escrow"; the advantage of the latter is that offer cancellation is "free": you just don't fund the address | 17:41 | |
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| dcousens | btcdrak: hey, that RBF FAQ, how can I link to it on the site | 18:16 |
| btcdrak | well it's not merged yet... | 18:18 |
| dcousens | (it was merged?) | 18:18 |
| dcousens | an hour ago, https://github.com/bitcoin-core/website/pull/59#event-522440897 | 18:19 |
| btcdrak | that's weird... | 18:19 |
| btcdrak | I must have messed up my command line | 18:19 |
| dcousens | Heh, seemed odd given you had 2 WIP items still | 18:20 |
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| btcdrak | sigh | 18:21 |
| dcousens | btcdrak: most likely you merged into your local master and somehow pushed itu p? | 18:22 |
| btcdrak | yes | 18:22 |
| dcousens | ah well | 18:22 |
| btcdrak | well I'm too tired to know what happened. reverted anyhow | 18:22 |
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| Taek | kanzure: in the scheme I was describing, only the transaction fees were thrown away | 22:47 |
| Taek | I realized this has a problem that is similar to the nothing-at-stake problem though | 22:47 |
| Taek | the transaction can be used to suppliment multiple competing blocks, making reorgs less expensive. | 22:47 |
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| Taek | As best I can tell right now, this is a dead-end. oh well | 22:48 |
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| Taek | (reading scrollback) | 23:27 |
| Taek | There's a paper that explores decentralized order books: https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~kroll/papers/weis14_prediction.pdf | 23:27 |
| Taek | .title | 23:27 |
| yoleaux | Taek: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page. | 23:27 |
| Taek | "On Decentralizing Prediction Markets and Order Books" | 23:27 |
| Taek | Ther | 23:28 |
| Taek | *There's also another way I know of to perform a decentralized order book, or at least set up decentralized trading. It involves either ACCS or payment channels | 23:28 |
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| Taek | you set up a network of nodes where each node is running both cryptocurrencies | 23:29 |
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| Taek | then they each have a buy price and a sell price. When they want to transact, they ask all the other nodes what the going rate is | 23:30 |
| Taek | whoever offers them the best offer gets to complete the trade | 23:30 |
| Taek | using payment channels this can be done quickly, but requires setup | 23:30 |
| Taek | using ACCS, you can do it but it takes more time and leaves DOS vulnerabilities | 23:30 |
| Taek | when using payment channels, you trade just a tiny amount at a time, in a large series of trades | 23:31 |
| Taek | if there's any cheating, trading stops immediately and the only money lost is the tiny amount at risk in each trade | 23:31 |
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| Taek | a maximum of one of these trades can go sour | 23:31 |
| Taek | assuming a round trip time of 500ms, you can do 120 of these trades every minute, which is sufficient for small volumes of money | 23:32 |
| Taek | incidentally, this means that you can put a mission-impossible style progress bar on your trading :) | 23:32 |
| Taek | transferring money [=====>--------] (8 seconds remain) | 23:32 |
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