2016-01-26.log

--- Log opened Tue Jan 26 00:00:15 2016
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JackHwow digital assets group is using sidechains for their ledger02:38
JackHfirst time I heard of anyone using sidechains and not the usual ethereum/eris/wediditourselves protocol02:38
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nshJackH, neat03:12
JackHyes really is, finally some more movement and maybe some cool alternative features based on the original satoshi code03:12
nsh(although sidechains-alpha is probably not to be used for any purpose requiring strong doublespend security)03:12
nsh(unless experimental/testing)03:12
nshit's pegged to testnet still iirc which can be trivially rewritten by several people in china if they got bored enough03:13
JackHI agre, but from a experimental point of view it is great, as we get more eyes on the Bitcoin code03:13
nsh(like bitcoin, except they don't have millions tied up in testnet fidelity)03:13
* nsh nods03:13
JackHwhat I see as a really big advantage because of this, is that someone comes up with something that can later be merged into core03:14
JackHright now its what? the same 50-100 people that have build all code03:15
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erasmospunkQuestion: was there a discussion to commit a UTXO diff for every block? So instead of committing the full UTXO set per block (that is IO heavy), we commit the removed and added UTXOs of this block.03:18
erasmospunkit is much cheaper to calculate: take all the tx inputs and remove them from the UTXO set, and add the tx outputs03:19
JackHdoesnt segwit deal with some of these problems?03:20
erasmospunkJackH: if I am not mistaken it only commits to the witnesses03:21
nshUTXO diffs/deltas have been proposed/discussed before03:21
* nsh does not know/recall the upshot however03:21
nshmentioned here: https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/2015-12-24/?page=103:22
erasmospunknsh: thanks03:22
nsh.title http://rustyrussell.github.io/pettycoin/2014/11/29/Pettycoin-Revisted-Part-I:-UTXO-Commitments.html03:23
yoleauxPettycoin by rustyrussell03:23
nsh.title https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-September/011078.html03:23
yoleaux[bitcoin-dev] Hash of UTXO set as consensus-critical03:23
nsh.title http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/40396/what-are-the-main-technical-hurdles-to-implementing-utxo-commitments03:23
yoleauxspv - What are the main technical hurdles to implementing UTXO commitments? - Bitcoin Stack Exchange03:23
nshalso some musings in gmaxwell's alt-ideas post: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/alt_ideas03:24
nsha true masochist would also subject themselves to all of this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=204283.003:24
JackHthere is no shortage of improvement proposals03:25
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JackHhence why it is probably a good thing that more people outside these channels start using the protocol and test different implementations03:25
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bsm1175321erasmospunk: bramc has been working on a "merkle set" data structure which I believe is intended for UTXO set commitments and fraud proofs, using proof of set inclusion or absence.06:41
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erasmospunkbsm1175321: the full set or diffs?06:41
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bsm1175321I don't know whether it can handle diffs.  Check the logs he posted a github in the last day or two with some prototype python code.06:42
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* bsm1175321 is very sad to see the arguments between Peter_R and gmaxwell. I am excited to see more peer review in this space. Systematic attribution (via paper citation) can solve some of this, I think. Reddit, IRC, blogs, etc are noisy cesspools and terrible places to place original ideas. That's no justification for dishonesty though.06:45
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bsm1175321See I just have ideas that no one wants to touch with a 10 foot pole, and I'm safe.  ;-)06:48
erasmospunkhttp://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/40396/what-are-the-main-technical-hurdles-to-implementing-utxo-commitments/42591#4259106:49
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instagibbsbsm1175321: it's an interesting strategy of yours ;)06:50
bsm1175321erasmospunk: https://github.com/bramcohen/MerkleSet/blob/master/merkle_set.py06:51
erasmospunkinstagibbs: bsm1175321 has good ideas, only to put them in Bitcoin you need a "balanced unicycle fork" :)06:52
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* nsh distributes cookies and good-faith tokens07:02
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coinoperated@bsm1175321  you and psztorc should meet down at the bar and share ignore stories :D07:05
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Taekit would help if people who didn't know much about protocol design didn't have such strong opinions about how the protocol should be constructed07:25
Taekpeople spend all their time talking about block size increases when all they really care about is scalability07:26
Taekthis is probably not the right channel for this... but I think a huge part of the core problem is the fundamental ideology of the developer majority is different from that of the masses07:27
Taekthe developers are prioritizing decentralization above everything else, but the masses are prioritizing scalability and features07:27
TaekEthereum prioritizes both scalability and featureset, I've been telling people with that ideology to strongly consider ethereum07:28
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instagibbstrue, now that Eth has gone down the bonded validator path it's much more like what many people would seem to want.07:29
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nshit's all grist to the mill07:33
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bsm117532Taek: Ethereum will have the same blocksize as bitcoin.07:49
bsm117532Their bonded validator path will be badly broken and destroy the system if they insist on it...07:49
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bsm117532*same blocksize *problem* as bitcoin.07:50
bsm117532The load on individual nodes is proportional to the transaction volume/utxo set size -- they haven't solved that problem.07:51
instagibbsbsm117532, not saying it's a good idea, but it's very similar logic. "full nodes that aren't me will keep people honest"07:51
Taekyeah, but Ethereum has made the choice to give miners control over t he max block size. All the reasons we believe that's a bad idea are being properly tested in Ethereum, people who don't believe the dialog can test that theory in a system that's not got my money in it07:51
bsm117532instagibbs: zero knowledge proofs will keep people honest.  But that's a ways out.07:51
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bsm117532I'd like to meet psztorc, he and I seem to agree on a great many things...07:53
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Taekhe was in Montreal, and he'll probably be at the MIT bitcoin expo07:54
bsm117532Taek: There's precious little info at http://mitbitcoinexpo.org/ -- what's it all about?07:56
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TaekMIT Bitcoin expo is a conference that focuses on academics and cool stuff, and is not necessarily Bitcoin related, but is all cryptocurrency related07:59
Taekthis year the speaker selection has been more strict than last year, though last year was ultimately a pretty good conference07:59
maakuTaek: where's the list of spekaers?08:01
TaekI'm not sure if the list is published yet, I will contact the organizers. I believe all the speakers and backup-speakers have been chosen, but not everyone has confirmed yet08:03
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maakuTaek: it's already kinda last-minute to arrange travel...08:05
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TaekI believe most of the speakers have been contacted at this point08:06
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nshtelepresence robots for everywizard!08:27
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maakuTask I mean for attendees08:42
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amiller_gmaxwell, i've forwarded on all of your concerns about Peter R to the other managing editor, Chris Wilmer, who is in the best position to deal with them08:48
amiller_the editorial board is ultimately accountable for Ledger, they're all listed here http://ledgerjournal.org/ojs/index.php/ledger/about/editorialTeam08:49
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Tasoshipeer-review is not about the ultimate aim of truth, but about incremental improvements which advance towards a truth09:06
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Tasoshiwhether Peter_r or gmaxwell is correct is not the point, not more than the discussion itself anyway, which by incremental steps leads to a better understanding of issues.09:07
TasoshiNo one can say for certain what is absolutely true. Every idea has two sides.09:07
TaekTasoshi: the issue is less about who is right or what idea should prevail, and more about academic dishonesty and unprofessional behavior09:09
TasoshiSo I find it troubling when gmaxwell takes the attitude of I am right and all else are wrong, instead of the academic attitude of debating the matters and in so doing reaching a greater understanding for the entire humanity. In academia, the way such debates are carried forward is by a counter-paper. If we look for example at all great ideas, they all had two people ferociously arguing against each other. To try and shut down or silence09:10
Tasoshior dehumanise a party is in no way in the spirit of seaking truth.09:10
TasoshiTaek, those are just unsubstentiated accusations. There is no judge in science. No one can say what is utterly not true, not by a simple statement anyway. Truth is reached by discussing in an academic form, not by dehumanising or childish accusations of dishonesty.09:11
TasoshiI am sure edison had a lot of ugly things to say about tesla, or jobs about gates, etc09:11
TaekTasoshi: have you read the conversations? I have a hard time believing you'd stand by your statements if you have read the exchanges and discussion.09:12
pigeonsTasoshi: please go back and look t the actual actions taken and the actual concerns09:12
amiller_apropo of nothing, i found a bunch of neat (well, depends on your taste) flowcharts about how to handle plagiarism allegations.... although they all seem to kick in once a paper's already published http://publicationethics.org/resources/flowcharts09:12
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TasoshiYou are missing my point. If gmaxwell wishes to engage in an academic discussion he should write an academic paper, rather than try and silence.09:12
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TasoshiIf it is the case that peter_r, an academic, with a phd from my undrstanding, is engaging in dishonest behaviour, then a counterpaper should be so written to explain his factual incorrections09:13
Tasoshibut to sit on irc and dehumanise and call names etc is childish, not academic behaviour, nor a behaviour which seeks truth09:13
Tasoshiit further creates a stiflinf environment in bitcoin as all would wish to not in any way contribute when a judge, mr gmaxwell, suddenly can claim to be the arbiter of truth09:14
Tasoshithese are very basic principles that have been derived from enlightenment09:15
Taek>09:15
pigeonsagain i suggest you review the situation. you have a misunderstanding09:16
Taek"these are very basic principles that have been derived from enlightenment" -> that's quite the plattitude09:16
Taek*platitude09:16
TasoshiTaek, truth is sought not by dehumanising09:16
Tasoshibut by research09:16
Tasoshiif gmaxwell wishes to present his own research to rebute that of Peter Rizun then he is welcomed to do so09:16
Tasoshibut to dehumanise is not science09:16
Tasoshito claim one has absolute truth is not science either09:17
Tasoshiand to try and silence an academic is a moral crime in my view09:17
bsm117532Tasoshi: I don't think the academic high-horse is helpful. I do think people should publish their ideas in a more formal manner than a reddit/bitcointalk thread.09:18
JackHwhat is their argument about anyway?09:19
JackHrizun/maxwell09:19
bsm117532scroll back...09:19
JackHabove when I wrote last as well?09:19
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Tasoshiit doesn't matter, basic principles still apply09:19
kanzurehttp://www.dtcc.com/~/media/Files/PDFs/DTCC-Embracing-Disruption.pdf09:19
bsm117532This morning gmaxwell explained it, there's a post on reddit.09:20
Tasoshiif gmaxwell wishes to rebute an academic paper he should do so with an academic paper09:20
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Tasoshinot by in effect trying to exile knowledge09:20
kanzureTasoshi: it is wrong to say that good arguments can only be published in papers, that's false.09:20
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kanzurethe barrier for peer review is **not** "all peer review must be submitted in the form of a pdf file"09:20
JackHkanzure, ? that PDF is the argument?09:20
instagibbsdo people have to publish an academic paper for lack of citation/plagarism?09:20
bsm117532kanzure: It is true however that papers establish a formal chain of provenance of ideas that is useful.09:21
kanzurebsm117532: nah, that's false too.09:21
Tasoshikanzure, science has a process for a reason. That process came from enlightenment. If we all recall, prior to the enlightenment we had priests declaring what is true and what is not.09:21
kanzureanyone can make a pdf.09:21
instagibbsbsm117532, he was personally involved in the email chain where the idea was discussed.09:21
bsm117532kanzure: *peer*reviewed*.  Peer review generally helps track down citations...09:21
TasoshiGmaxwell is acting no different than a priest by trying to excile a very smart academic09:21
kanzureTasoshi: you are basically claiming that his peer review is invalid because he didn't publish a pdf. you're not making sense. :)09:21
bsm117532pdf is not peer review.09:22
Tasoshitake the ideas to the arena and battle them out, out of it truth comes, but to declare arbitrarily you are right or wrong, this is middle ages behaviour09:22
kanzurethat's not how peer review works, Tasoshi09:22
pigeonsok this seems intentional and not misunderstanding09:22
instagibbs^09:22
Tasoshiseems09:22
instagibbsTasoshi, please go somewhere else09:22
Tasoshimany things seem many things09:22
bsm117532This seems to be departing substantially from !topic09:23
kanzurewe have explained why you are wrong, your response is something about religion, get lost.09:23
bsm117532!!topic09:23
gribbleError: "!topic" is not a valid command.09:23
bsm117532!topic09:23
gribbleThis channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja09:23
TasoshiI am sure the pope said Galileo seemed intentional in his declaration, e puo si move09:23
TasoshiI suppose the judges who hanged socratees thought it was all intentional too09:23
kanzurehave you ever heard of plato? socrates? galileo? morons.09:23
instagibbslet's not ignore the fact that Tasoshi can not seem to read at all, much less philosophy09:24
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kanzure( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18ulbI9k5eA )09:24
JackHlol this guy is the second crazy in here in the past 2 weeks09:24
OxADADAbsm117532: where is the thread on reddit?09:25
maakuThe hanging of Socrates is one if my favorite works by David09:25
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kanzurebtw where are our moderators09:26
bsm117532(2016-01-26 00:10:07) gmaxwell: coinoperated: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1274102.msg13679080#msg13679080 provides some context if you care to dig.09:26
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bsm117532(00:42:45) gmaxwell: petertodd: Peter_R himself published most of it, http://pastebin.com/jFgkk8M3  more of it was also described in this channel with him in the room.09:26
bsm117532Let's end this topic.09:26
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TasoshiSure, why discuss the atmosphere of medieval priesthood around here - I mean the priests don't benefit from that. Let us fully ignore all that enlightenment has told us about truth processes. Let's instead banish the heretics... I mean, if you wish to operate in that sort of atmosphere, then your choices of course, but I am sure everyone agrees that sort of atmosphere has been fundamentally proven to be very wrong.09:30
fluffypony"This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies"09:30
fluffyponyplease stick to the subject matter.09:31
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TasoshiIt wasn't chatting theoretical ideas up to now, but plotting on suppressing academic input.09:31
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coinoperatedTasoshi, Peter_R can come in here and defend himself just fine, he has been willing to do so many times.  You aren't going to help matters by gradually reworking your hypothesis about in-group behavior into simple ad hominem.09:32
TasoshiI just thought to defend the principles that have come out from the enlightenment. If you guys disagree, that is perfectly fine, of course. Plenty of places where academic input is actually valued.09:33
coinoperatedyou're going the wrong direction09:33
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JackHtalking about theoretical ideas, has anyone seem the MIT paper btw?09:35
@maakuWhat paper?09:35
JackHEnigma09:35
bsm117532Oh yes, discussed here many times.09:35
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JackHquite a great concept and one of the very few proposals with some sense to it09:36
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bsm117532I think it needs some work but i generally agree.09:37
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TaekI had a long conversation with one of the creators (GguyZ) last night, I feel like I have a good grip on what it can and cannot do09:37
Taekthough not a good grip on how it works09:37
@kanzuregeneric multiparty computation stuff?09:37
JackHdo we know when there is code for it?09:37
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@kanzurei feel sort of stupid, i just noticed that i am an op, but minutes ago i was asking for a moderator09:37
@kanzurei would like to apologize to everyone for my negligence09:37
bsm117532Dunno if you saw the message, someone gave you op about 5 mins ago.09:38
@kanzurei'mma mute Tasoshi now until he submits me an essay about the enlightenment09:38
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@kanzurebsm117532: oh perfect. thanks.09:38
TaekJackH: I believe that there is code that is working now, you can do computation on encrypted data using scripts written in a subset of python09:39
Taekthough, I believe as a part of their business model they are keeping portions of the codebase closed source09:39
JackHI like the idea of shared computational resources, although I am not sure if they aim at a "grid" or something lighter09:39
@kanzureTaek: welp if they release it then we can reverse engineer it.09:40
JackHlike, could this be used for protein folding? mass distributed computational processing of such?09:41
TaekJackH: I think it's fairly complicated. You pick a group of people to hold the data, and they each get different keys for computing on pieces of the data. The slowdown is somewhere between 10x and 100x09:41
bsm117532Too slow.  It's the world's slowest computer.  It's effective clock rate is ~kilohertz.09:41
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Taekbsm117532: the enigma team is reporting that the slowdown is at worst 100x, meaning clockrates would be closer to 10MHz, not too bad at all if the claims are true09:42
bsm117532It can do arithmetic but multiplication requires inter-node communication.  So that limits your computatoin.09:42
@kanzuregarbled circuit compiler thingy https://github.com/tjim/smpcc09:42
JackHyes I would agree if it is general purpose computing, but if its specialized computing that is required, for example like the IBM neural network in a grid, it could work09:42
bsm117532Taek: I don't know how that can possibly be true.  It's ping time that limits multiplies.  Though you could get MHz on addition...09:42
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Taekhmm, that was not mentioned in our discussion last night. Though, multiplication is technically just repeated addition, it wouldn't surprise me if they have techniques to optimize that stuff.09:43
Taekthis is outside of what I know about it though, so I'll stop speculating here09:44
bsm117532There's information loss in multiplication, and you have to recompute the sharing, IIRC09:44
bsm117532It's pretty fundamental.09:44
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JackHthey mention this:09:44
JackHEvery request in the network for storage, data retrieval, or computation has a fixed price, similar to09:44
JackHthe concept of Gas in Ethereum.  Unlike Ethereum where every computation is run by every node,09:44
JackHin Enigma different nodes execute different parts of each computation and need to be compensated09:44
JackHaccording to their contribution, which is measured in rounds.09:44
JackHcan be interpreted many ways. either many small proofs or multiple proofs to solve a larger set of data09:45
bsm117532Taek: you can't use the repeated addition trick when you're multiplying two homomorphically-encrypted numbers, because you don't actually know the numbers.09:46
Taekah yeah, bummer09:46
bsm117532And the domain of x*y is larger than x+y, so if you're operating mod Z you have to recompute the sharing for x*y mod Z. (hence information loss)09:47
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AdrianGaltcoins are not offtopic here/10:31
AdrianG?10:32
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Taeknot at all, as long as the discussion pertains to their academic merits and shortcomings10:34
Taeksales pitches, tech help, etc. are not okay10:34
AdrianGand technical merits only, i assume?10:35
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Taekyeah pretty much10:36
CaptChaddHi everyone10:36
AdrianGi just find it very odd, that in a currency/assets area, economic discussions are discouraged.10:36
AdrianGisnt that part of the 'technical'10:36
Taekeconomics tends to be much more of a dark art, meaning it's hard to understand what causes what10:37
Taekwith something like an algorithm, you can break it down and digest it easily10:37
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Taekit's a lot harder to talk about the macroeconomic effects of an inflationary vs. deflationary currency. Those discussions typically don't go anywhere, and therefore are avoided10:37
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bsm117532That said, we depend on incentive mechanisms for Satoshi consensus.10:38
AdrianGwhich is entirely economic at heart.10:39
bsm117532which are economic.  So there's game theory too...10:39
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Taekand I think it is on topic to say something like 'funding POW security through inflation of the currency is a proven mechanic, however it's unclear what happens when the POW is provided by a fee market, and is a potentially inhibiting factor for scale if, for security, you need to make an artificial supply-shock'10:41
r0achif it's a discussion of inflationary vs deflationary, all you're really doing by making a currency inflationary is attempting social engineering, but that social engineering is usually bypassed entirely because deflationary options always exist whether it's something like gold, or in current day times, stocks act *mostly* as a finite austrian currency10:44
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r0achso Gresham's law just bypasses your social engineering and goes there10:45
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nshnow you're just making up words and putting them in random sequences10:52
nshthat's why we don't do economics chat :)10:52
nshsomewhere between 'we'd like the estimated expectation value of mining to be positive' and 'stocks act *mostly* as a finite austrian currency' is the on/off-topic line. the exact boundary depends on other factors, generally quality and interactability of the ideas being discussed10:52
nshwhere an idea is interactable if it's expressed in a scientific manner, using generally well-understood terms of reference as they are generally understood and not requiring too esoteric assumptions or prior lore/theory that will not be received by the plurality of the channel10:52
nshor something like that. i just clean telephones10:52
gmaxwellr0ach: and yet ethereum exists and has a non-trivial market cap; even though not only is it inflationary, but the future inflation rate isn't even known or commited to.10:53
gmaxwell(they're only commited to it being positive)10:54
smoothgmaxwell: true about not committed to but planned to switch to proof of stake which effectively makes it non-inflationary10:54
smoothof course, when matters10:54
gmaxwellsmooth: the POS will still be inflationary.10:55
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MRL-Relay[othe] Not really, you always own the same % of total coins10:55
smoothgmaxwell: i guess it depends how many people stake. if distributed to the existing coin holders, that's redenomination, not inflation10:55
instagibbsMRL-Relay, but it's clearly the people with more Eth that will stake more.10:56
instagibbswell, I say clearly, i mean i think so10:56
smoothinstagibbs: most likely, although there are pools10:56
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* instagibbs underlines "clearly" to "prove" it10:57
gmaxwellsmooth: go look at any of the other POS coins for that: besides, one could make the same argument for mining.10:57
smoothgmaxwell: it is not the same argument for mining, but ill just leave it there10:59
Guest95596gmaxwell, Do you know of anything which gives a good explanation of the cpu/space tradeoffs in the 'obvious' proof of space algorithm?11:01
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bramcI have some thoughts about possible approaches to fixing it, but need to know the underlying problem better first11:03
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AdrianGfixing what?11:09
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bramcAdrianG, The proof of space algorithm which consists of demonstrating a preimage whose hash is a partial collision with the challenge11:10
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nshi wonder if you could use rainbow tables as a proof-of-space, which have to be regenerated at each block and must be custom to the private key claiming the mining reward11:45
nshissue is the challenge being generated without a trust issue due to retention of the key/pt11:46
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AdrianGnsh: i.e. network-based RNG?11:56
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nshgenerating entropy is easy enough. allowing a challenge to be set that can be solved by anyone and validated by everyone without the setting computer having an advantage is more difficult unless it's a preimage search11:57
nshi don't know about rainbow-tables in the context of hash reversal, only symmetric ciphers really11:58
nshif you could share the computation of a ciphertext of the input to a hash function in a way that prevents the reconstruction of the input afterwards by some threshold of colluding parties, then i think it's doable12:01
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nshoh well actually the tables used to decrypt A5/1 are actually a large amount of reversals of the one-way function of the internal state of the A5/1 stream12:04
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nshso maybe it's possible to generate a puzzle without having an advantage using some hash structure12:05
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nsh.title https://opensource.srlabs.de/projects/a51-decrypt/wiki/Backclocking12:07
yoleauxBackclocking - A5/1 Decryption - SRLabs Open Source Projects12:07
@kanzurebackclocking was outlawed by clock and tower associates12:12
JackHand good tech reason to why we cannot have multiple ports in use for sync on core?12:13
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MRL-Relay[shen] ring ct crypto library ready for testing : https://github.com/ShenNoether/RingCT13:09
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AdrianGnice.13:11
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MRL-Relay[shen] thx13:15
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instagibbswhat is "reasonable efficiency" in this case? Cool stuff regardless.13:37
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MRL-Relay[shen] instagibbs, efficiency is essentially if you did a current xmr transaction and a CT transaction at the same time13:43
MRL-Relay[shen] possibly slightly better since it uses the Liu Wei Wong version of ring signatures instead of XMR current fujisaki/suzuki based ring sigs13:44
MRL-Relay[shen] also much of the storage cost of the CT part should be prunable13:45
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OxADADAkewl14:12
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