| --- Log opened Thu Jan 28 00:00:17 2016 | ||
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| Taek | http://fooledbyrandomness.com/minority.pdf | 00:03 |
|---|---|---|
| Taek | "The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dominance of the Stubborn Minority" | 00:03 |
| Taek | while not terribly wizardly, I found this text enlightening | 00:04 |
| aknix | thx | 00:07 |
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| -!- Topic for #bitcoin-wizards: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja | 00:18 | |
| -!- Topic set by sipa [~pw@unaffiliated/sipa1024] [Thu Oct 29 17:53:34 2015] | 00:18 | |
| [Users #bitcoin-wizards] | 00:18 | |
| [@ChanServ ] [ c0rw1n ] [ grandmaster ] [ koshii ] [ nickler ] [ starsoccer ] | 00:18 | |
| [@kanzure ] [ catcow ] [ GreenIsMyPepper] [ kumavis ] [ Nightwolf ] [ stevenroose ] | 00:18 | |
| [ [ace]_ ] [ catlasshrugged] [ gribble ] [ kyuupichan ] [ nsh ] [ stevenroose|BNC] | 00:18 | |
| [ [d__d] ] [ cfields ] [ grubles ] [ lauren ] [ null_radix ] [ stonecoldpat ] | 00:18 | |
| [ [Derek] ] [ chjj ] [ Guest23915 ] [ lclc ] [ nwilcox ] [ STRML ] | 00:18 | |
| [ _whitelogger_ ] [ cluckj ] [ Guest25__ ] [ lecusemble ] [ o3u ] [ supasonic ] | 00:18 | |
| [ a5m0 ] [ CodeArtix ] [ Guest50070 ] [ LeMiner ] [ optimator ] [ T23WS_ ] | 00:18 | |
| [ a7b9d6e6 ] [ CodeShark ] [ guruvan ] [ Lightsword ] [ otoburb ] [ Taek ] | 00:18 | |
| [ adams__ ] [ coinoperated ] [ gwillen ] [ Linus_ ] [ OxADADA ] [ talpa23 ] | 00:18 | |
| [ adlai ] [ comboy ] [ harding ] [ livegnik_ ] [ p15 ] [ Tasoshi ] | 00:18 | |
| [ AdrianG ] [ copumpkin ] [ harrow ] [ lmatteis ] [ paci ] [ TD-Linux ] | 00:18 | |
| [ aem ] [ Cory ] [ hashtag ] [ Logicwax ] [ palehorse ] [ Tenhi ] | 00:18 | |
| [ aj ] [ coryfields_ ] [ hashtag_ ] [ luigi1111w ] [ PaulCapestany ] [ teslax ] | 00:18 | |
| [ aknix ] [ crescendo ] [ heath ] [ Luke-Jr ] [ petertodd ] [ TheSeven ] | 00:18 | |
| [ Alanius ] [ d9b4bef9 ] [ helo ] [ luny ] [ phantomcircuit ] [ thrasher` ] | 00:18 | |
| [ alexkuck_ ] [ da2ce7_mobile ] [ hopey ] [ maaku ] [ pigeons ] [ Tiraspol ] | 00:18 | |
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| [ andytoshi ] [ devrandom ] [ Iriez ] [ merlincorey ] [ qawap ] [ wallet42 ] | 00:18 | |
| [ antanst ] [ dgenr8 ] [ isis ] [ meZee ] [ r0ach ] [ wangchun ] | 00:18 | |
| [ Apocalyptic ] [ dignork ] [ Jaamg ] [ meZee- ] [ raedah ] [ warptangent ] | 00:18 | |
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| [ arubi ] [ eamonnw ] [ JayDugger ] [ mikolalysenko] [ rishobot ] [ weex_ ] | 00:18 | |
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| [ atgreen ] [ Eliel_ ] [ jessepollak ] [ mm_1 ] [ robmyers ] [ windsok ] | 00:18 | |
| [ AusteritySucks] [ Emcy ] [ jl2012 ] [ moa ] [ RoboTeddy ] [ wizkid057 ] | 00:18 | |
| [ azariah_ ] [ epscy ] [ jlyndon ] [ MoALTz ] [ runeks ] [ wpalczynski ] | 00:18 | |
| [ BananaLotus ] [ eric ] [ joesmoe ] [ Monthrect ] [ ryan-c ] [ wumpus ] | 00:18 | |
| [ bassguitarman ] [ espes ] [ jojva ] [ morcos ] [ sdaftuar ] [ xabbix ] | 00:18 | |
| [ berndj ] [ execute ] [ jonasschnelli ] [ mountaingoat ] [ se3000 ] [ xeon-enouf ] | 00:18 | |
| [ bildramer ] [ fkhan_ ] [ jouke ] [ mr_burdell ] [ seg ] [ yang ] | 00:18 | |
| [ binaryFate ] [ fluffypony ] [ jrayhawk ] [ mrkent ] [ SgtStroopwafel ] [ YankoRo ] | 00:18 | |
| [ binns ] [ fn2187 ] [ jron ] [ MRL-Relay ] [ ShadeS ] [ Ylbam ] | 00:18 | |
| [ bit2017 ] [ freekevin ] [ justanotheruser] [ Myagui ] [ SheffieldCrypto_] [ yoleaux ] | 00:18 | |
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| [ btcdrak ] [ go1111111 ] [ kisspunch ] [ nibbler ] [ Starduster ] | 00:18 | |
| -!- Irssi: #bitcoin-wizards: Total of 278 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 276 normal] | 00:18 | |
| -!- Channel #bitcoin-wizards created Mon Feb 25 23:24:47 2013 | 00:18 | |
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| adam3us | so i have been musing if one can create a new upgrade mechanism that is safe & fast, but protects old full nodes from funds loss on weak hashrate chain. this upgrade mechanism itself maybe deployable via firmfork (which forces SPV client upgrade) or possibly by hardfork which may not force SPV client upgrade. | 10:19 |
| adam3us | it seems that part of the challenge is for safety hard-forks if used at all should be deployed well in advance. and yet future network capacity and decentralisation headroom is uncertain. | 10:20 |
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| MRL-Relay | [othe] why not just plan sheduled mandatory upgrades, once or twice a year? | 10:30 |
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| adam3us | [othe] funds loss risk | 10:35 |
| adam3us | for example if fullnodes treated as an empty block devoid of transactions (except for coinbase) any block versions that are higher than it understands, we get a backwards compatible to SPV node firm fork. that means a fullnode would not accept payment, and miners would orphan (soft-fork) any blocks created on the old version | 10:36 |
| adam3us | in this way, we could have a safe fast upgrade when consensus exists for it. | 10:37 |
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| MRL-Relay | [othe] in monero too old nodes stop working (1 year currently), you are forced to upgrade, even if there was no protocol changes | 10:42 |
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| instagibbs | yick | 10:59 |
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| @kanzure | adam3us: forcing spv clients to stop seems like a dangerous precedent because then you need only the miners to deploy that. | 11:10 |
| @kanzure | funds loss is not the only form of security issue for old full nodes on old chain | 11:10 |
| @kanzure | mandatory updates are not possible in this system without extreme regulatory burden | 11:11 |
| @kanzure | other problem is that coinbase transactions will still occur on old chain, so you end up with double minting | 11:11 |
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| @kanzure | adam3us: i suspect we should start first with describing the full range of problems, instead of one-at-a-time. by thorough enumeration of the system incompatibilities with a hard-fork, we can get a better understanding of what we're up against. | 11:13 |
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| adam3us | kanzure: "forcing spv clients to stop" it's the reverse: stop non-upgraded fullnodes but keep SPV nodes (as are anyway trusting miners, who are in turn held to account by economic full-nodes) | 11:21 |
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| @kanzure | "and miners would orphan (soft-fork) any blocks created on the old version" this would require eternal mining i think. | 11:25 |
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| adam3us | it's not merge-mining, just that version 4 block miners would consider version 3 blocks invalid and orphan them | 11:31 |
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| @kanzure | on a broader note (not directed at adam3us' recent messages), even uncontroversial hard-forks are going to have many many safety and security concerns for live migration of a system of this scale. focusing on the concerns of a controversial hard-fork seems sort of silly, since non-controversial hard-forks seem easier to consider and yet also sharing many of the risks and problems (which are only elaborated in the controversial case). | 11:48 |
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| psztorc | @adam3us > so i have been musing if one can create a new upgrade mechanism that is safe & fast, but protects old full nodes from funds loss on weak hashrate chain | 12:41 |
| psztorc | I was having a similar idea...my goal was to make it so that the network can easily change PoW, without the need of a programmer, or of anyone needing to do anything. | 12:42 |
| @kanzure | that sounds a lot like having nothing happen at all :) | 12:42 |
| psztorc | My solution was a predetermined list of PoW-functions...if you couldn't find enough blocks in x=8 hours, it would start watching the current PoW-function, in addition to looking for blocks on the next PoW-function. | 12:43 |
| @kanzure | i suspect that we will find that it is important to have a high threshold for difficulty of computing a certain proof-of-work output vs. the difficulty of changing the proof-of-work algorithm | 12:43 |
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| psztorc | It falls into the "have network respond to sudden drop in hashrate" category. | 12:44 |
| @kanzure | if the purpose of a pre-determined proof-of-work function list is to prevent mining centralization, then i would submit to you that larger miners are always going to have more resources to pursue the entire list | 12:44 |
| psztorc | @kanzure I explained what the purpose was... | 12:45 |
| psztorc | feel free to scroll up and read it again. | 12:45 |
| @kanzure | "change pow" is not a purpose. | 12:45 |
| psztorc | "change pow" *is* a purpose, but not the purpose I stated. | 12:46 |
| psztorc | Quit trolling me. | 12:46 |
| @kanzure | if you mean "have network respond" quote, then i'm not sure what scrolling was about... still looking. | 12:47 |
| @kanzure | also, it seems fair for me to guess that you might have had the purpose of preventing mining centralization, since this is sometimes what others are intending when they propose a list of hash functions. i understand this is not your purpose but since i am having such a tremendously hard time finding the text that you are referring to, it seems fair for me to point out where the misunderstanding originates from (in addition to the ... | 12:49 |
| @kanzure | ... frantic scrolling). | 12:49 |
| * nsh hands out cookies and goodwill | 12:49 | |
| psztorc | Ugh | 12:50 |
| psztorc | Almost every time I come here I regret it. | 12:50 |
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| psztorc | As you are no doubt aware, it has been suggested that Bitcoin Core might need to change it's PoW function. | 12:50 |
| @kanzure | i guessed your purpose was x, you said "it's not x", then you called me a troll while i'm scrolling around looking for your stated purpose... geeze. | 12:50 |
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| psztorc | In the even that a large majority of mining power existed on Classic or something else. | 12:51 |
| psztorc | However, there is a tiny problem with this, in that there are a few moments of "hangtime" where individuals would have to [1] decide which PoW-f to use [2] code it up without introducing bugs and [3] get the software installed everywhere. | 12:52 |
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| @kanzure | new-pow bootstrapping procedures are also under-determined at the moment. most proposals made in the open would be immediately scooped by botnet operators, unfortunately. but perhaps botnet operators would be better behaved.... maybe. | 12:53 |
| psztorc | Of course, users would need to wait for many confirmation, after a PoW change. | 12:54 |
| psztorc | But that is not specific to the _way_ in which the PoW is changed. | 12:54 |
| belcher | does anyone know why p2pool isnt used more in bitcoin? is it a software problem with p2pool itself or is it just that most of the asics are owned by theirs manufacturers who dont need a pool | 12:55 |
| @kanzure | belcher: one of the reasons why p2pool isn't merged into bitcoin core is because p2pool is python. | 12:55 |
| psztorc | Moreover, a threat only _succeeds_ if you don't need to carry it out. | 12:55 |
| bsm117532 | belcher: I've been trying to understand that, and AFAICT it stems from a lot of misunderstandings. | 12:55 |
| bsm117532 | Also it has higher payout variance than centralized pools, I think. | 12:56 |
| @kanzure | http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2015-12-10.log | 12:56 |
| @kanzure | see near 14:28 | 12:57 |
| belcher | bsm117532 right, because centralized pools can pay per regular time interval ? | 12:58 |
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| psztorc | One reason is that I don't think P2Pool really _does_ anything. | 12:58 |
| psztorc | It is a very clever idea, but you can already point your miner at a different pool at any time. | 12:58 |
| @kanzure | belcher: no. | 12:58 |
| psztorc | Anyway, my solution would help to respond to the loss of hashpower for _any_ reason, while still (I think) being resistant to most of the security vulnerabilities that were introduced by previous attempts. | 13:03 |
| psztorc | This includes any hashrate collapse which might occur as a direct and sole result of the blockreward-halving, as previously discussed. | 13:03 |
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| zorba_tg | psztorc: A drop in block rate could be a result of other scenarios, not only hard fork | 13:38 |
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| psztorc | zorba_tg: Indeed. Do you think that all such scenarios are undesireable? If the miners don't mine enough for the network to make it to the next difficulty adjustment, they have failed the users. | 13:51 |
| psztorc | Yet, users can't do anything about it, because they lack esoteric specialized hardware. | 13:52 |
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| psztorc | Let me clarify that my idea is similar to adam3us 's in some ways, but exactly the opposite of it in others. | 14:00 |
| psztorc | It tries to force Upgrade Only With Overwhelming Consensus in more of a mean way than a nice way. | 14:01 |
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| zooko | adam3us, othe (from MRL-Relay): thank you very much! I like the idea so well I added an issue ticket to consider using it in Zcash: https://github.com/Electric-Coin-Company/zcash/issues/688 | 14:04 |
| adam3us | zooko: weclome. so when are you going to sidechain it so bitcoin gets the features :) | 14:13 |
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| MRL-Relay | [othe] i can neither see zcash nor monero work as a bitcoin sidechain | 14:14 |
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| @kanzure | BlueMatt: Luke-Jr: what is busted about extension blocks? | 22:37 |
| BlueMatt | yea, give me a sec...5 conversations at once :( | 22:38 |
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| phantomcircuit | kanzure, nothing, they just require anybody who wants to use them to use new software | 22:50 |
| BlueMatt | worse, they strongly, strongly push everyone to the new software | 22:51 |
| BlueMatt | unlike all the other soft-forks we've done where you can upgrade at your leisure as you need the updates | 22:51 |
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| BlueMatt | it is also an extreme segwit where the blocksize (ie a critical parameter in centralization pressure) is changed by miners, not users | 22:52 |
| BlueMatt | which is pretty anti-bitcoin | 22:52 |
| BlueMatt | generally, it seems very anti-bitcoin-ideals...puts too much control in the hands of miners | 22:53 |
| @kanzure | i believe that's the case for all of the soft-hard fork variants. | 22:54 |
| @kanzure | (i mean the subtype that is called "soft-hard fork") | 22:54 |
| BlueMatt | indeed, it is | 22:55 |
| BlueMatt | though I'm not actually sure what your exact definition thereof is | 22:55 |
| BlueMatt | but I assume its the case :) | 22:55 |
| @kanzure | same definition as adam3us | 22:57 |
| @kanzure | https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1296628.msg13400092#msg13400092 | 22:57 |
| @kanzure | http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/012172.html | 22:57 |
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| --- Log closed Fri Jan 29 00:00:18 2016 | ||
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