2016-02-15.log

--- Log opened Mon Feb 15 00:00:33 2016
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StephenM347Is there a way to see which node sent you a block or header via an RPC command?09:53
StephenM347Which of your peers, I mean09:54
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fluffyponyStephenM347: #bitcoin-dev09:59
StephenM347can't join, says I need to be identified with services10:01
fluffypony/nickserv register <password> <email>10:04
fluffyponyand then in future you can just do /nickserv identify <password>10:04
fluffyponyalso #bitcoin can probably assist you with that10:04
StephenM347fluffypony: gotcha, thx10:05
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kanzuresome multi-party computation stuff https://github.com/vitorenesduarte/spdz15:17
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jtrembackis this specifically for bitcoin?15:30
jtrembackis it specifically for cryptocurrency using a blockchain?15:30
jtremback^the IRC channel15:31
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instagibbs!topic15:33
gribbleThis channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja15:33
adlaijtremback: bsm117532 and others are actually working on mining which does not, strictly speaking, use a blockchain15:34
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jtrembackgribble, so while #bitcoin-wizards has bitcoin in the title, it is not only for discussing bitcoin?15:35
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adlaigribble doesn't parse english quite that well15:36
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jtrembackoops, ^instagibbs15:36
instagibbs:D15:36
instagibbsit's pretty loose15:36
instagibbshas to be wizardly15:36
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jtrembacklol15:37
Taekanything that's related to cryptocurrency research that's both cutting edge and not-trivially-broken.15:37
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jtrembackpayment channels?15:41
Taekdefinitely. best way to figure out is to hang around for a while. If you've got a specific question feel free to ask.15:43
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bsm117532adlai: Since you mentioned me and I had some more time today...a braid with rewards proportional to area: http://imgur.com/ntYgBAN17:47
bsm117532Successive colors are "cohorts" -- analog of a bitcoin block.17:48
adlaiis there significance to the Z ordering of the two "overlapping" green beads?17:48
bsm117532No.  I'm not entirely happy with how the library I'm using chooses to plot these.  I might try to fix that...17:49
bsm117532The last thing I need to figure out is a rewards algorithm that punishes miners for making beads with very-old parents.  It expands the size of the cohort, which an attacker might use strategically... I'm thinking with a steep enough rewards function, beads could have zero reward when their parents are too old, giving a criteria to toss out too-old beads.17:56
bsm117532The algorithm I presented in HK (used on this graph) is linear, but I think that's not enough, it should probably be quadratic or quartic or gaussian...17:56
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bsm117532jtremback: Basically we discuss research papers here. ;-)18:01
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bsm117532There's also the problem of deciding on a retargeting algorithm for this structure...18:18
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jtrembackbsm117532 your beads scheme does not have one global ledger?18:44
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bsm117532jtremback: It is a single global ledger.  It's just a different arrangement for blocks, allowing for the fact that blocks can be produced simultaneously on opposite sides of the planet (orphans or stale blocks in bitcoin lingo).18:46
jtrembackok, so they do not need to be ordered as strictly?18:47
bsm117532If such blocks have no conflicts (no double spends) then I need to tie them together, so blocks have to have multiple parents. That realization alone leads to a Directed Acyclic Graph (which my graphs are).18:47
jtrembackdoes every node verify every transaction?18:47
bsm117532They are less strictly ordered than a blockchain.  Blocks can be "parallel" if they have no double-spends.  (I call them "siblings")18:48
bsm117532Yes every node verifies every transaction.  But step 2 for me is sharding so every node doesn't have to verify every transaction.  But that goal is orthogonal to eliminating the orphan problem.18:49
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bsm117532jtremback: You might be interested in my blog post on the subject, which explains my plan of attack to these problems: http://blog.sldx.com/three-challenges-for-scaling-bitcoin/18:50
jtrembackcool, thanks18:50
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jtrembackoooh i like #218:51
jtrembackso, maybe 21 inc is not so silly after all?18:52
jtrembackdoesn't the sharding in #3 effectively reduce the security?18:53
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bsm117532Not necessarily.  The question is: how do I know that the remainder of the blockchain that I'm not holding does not contain a double spend, follows the rules, does not allocate more coins, etc. There are other ways to do this, via passing proofs about the parts of the blockchain you don't hold.18:55
jtrembackin #2 i'm not sure I understand the point of using an asic18:55
jtrembackI guess if nobody used asics an attacker could do a sybil attack with some18:56
jtremback?18:56
bsm117532That's only because bitcoin is currently ASIC-oriented.18:56
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jtrembackhow is this edge mining attackable?18:57
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bsm117532There's a strong desire in the community to move to a non-asic algorithm that can be run on commodity hardware, but I argue this creates an "external majority" problem where there's tons of commodity hardware out there that can be reallocated to mine.  (It has been done with javascript, virii, worms, etc in the early days)18:57
bsm117532I personally prefer ASIC mining, but it has a different centralization problem surrounding the creation of the ASICs themselves. :-/  Pick your poison.18:58
bsm117532Re: edge mining, we had an interesting conversation the other day: https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/ scroll back to Feb 13 starting with Taek's comment.19:01
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jtrembackI don't really understand it. How is edge mining anything more than anti-spam?19:06
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jtrembackthe ability to do work on one transaction doesn't mean that it's not a double spend19:07
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bsm117532Edge mining *IS* anti-spam.  The rule regarding highest work decides which among double-spends to choose.19:32
bsm117532Point is, this is not something an attacker has control over.19:33
bsm117532Particularly with braids combined with edge mining, the attacker's idea would be to promptly introduce a spend, and wait for the merchant to accept it, introducing a double-spend later.  This double-spend can only overtake the rest of the network if the attacker has > 50% of the hashpower, per Satoshi's original analysis.19:35
bsm117532If the attacker introduces both sides of the double-spend simultaneously (something that is possible with braids) he doesn't have control over which gets selected, because it depends mostly on how other miners build their blocks.  Also, the wise merchant will quickly detect the double-spend since enough confirmations have not pased.19:36
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smoothbsm117532: the idea that there is no external majority with ASICs is a myth, especially after a halving. But even otherwise, there may be many more ASICs that just haven't been put into production for whatever reason20:22
smoothat one time ASICMINER claimed to have multiples of deployed hashrate in inventory20:22
smoothat best it is weak protection from anything20:23
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bsm117532As I said, "pick your poison".  Neither is a magic bullet.20:24
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bsm117532I'd argue for an open source ASIC design, with wide and multiple manufacturers, and contractual agreements to sell the chips and not mine with them.20:25
smoothagree there, just think it is dangerously wrong to assume all asics within a reasonable range of efficiency are mining20:25
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smoothi have some in my garage sitting idle :)20:26
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bsm117532Anything that can be run on commodity hardware has a 10000x external majority.  How to co-opt that majority into mining is an exercise left for the reader.  ;-)20:26
smoothmaybe im waiting for an attacker to call me up and rent them :)20:26
* bsm117532 jots down smooth's phone number...20:26
smoothim not sure the readily-deployable external majority is that high even with commodity hardware20:27
bsm117532Two words: google datacenter20:27
smoothfor example, when any altcoin is hot (probably ethereum now) you can see a direct effect on cloud mining prices20:27
smoothyes, but google is using it20:28
smoother, not cloud minnig.20:28
smoothcloud computing i meant20:28
smoothcloud gpus in this case20:28
bsm117532I mean, any operator of a large amount of hardware (cloud provider) could be re-provisioned to allocate idle time to mining.20:28
smoothyes i would expect that to happen longer term20:29
bsm117532If your coin is only as secure as cloud mining is not-idle, I'd call that not secure.20:29
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smoothbut what happens now is they offer idle time  at low prices and people rent it to mine20:29
bsm117532That's an interesting dynamic...20:29
smoothwhen there is a hot altcoin like eth, it is very hard to find spare capacity. many vendors sell out or increase prices, etc.20:30
bsm117532There goes my plans for world domination...20:30
smoothyou know the market does its thing...20:30
smoothi mean it is very hard to create a situation where a large entity can't take over20:31
bsm117532But if the operator could make even more money by mining ETH and selling it, why are they renting it a lower price?20:31
smoothgoogle could deploy its datacenter but it could also get chips made easily enough20:31
smoothi would say because the market is not mature enough20:31
smoothand also kind of small20:32
bsm117532Chips have a substantial lead time in their development, and don't all come out all at once.  A datacenter can be redeployed instantaneously, essentially.20:32
smoothhow much can you really make mining eth compared to a real business.....but some small cloud computing operations probably do mine themselves20:32
bsm117532If I was running a cloud computing operation, I'd use idle CPU for mining...20:32
smooththey can come online at once, if that's what is desired20:32
smoothi bet some smaller ones do. for larger ones it probably creates too many problems to bother20:33
bsm117532Well, with ASICs then you'd have to wait for the end of a manufacturing run, warehousing them, installing them, and letting the first ones sit idle while the last one is installed.20:33
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bsm117532poison...20:33
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smoothnah just wait till the halving and buy on the used market20:33
moa"... mining eth compared to a real business ..."20:34
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bsm117532moa: WeChat is over there ---->20:34
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bsm117532The halving formula was such a bad idea.  Satoshi clearly wasn't a math major...it's easy enough to make the reward continuous and not have these spikes.20:35
smoothtrue that20:35
smoothbut then again my asic gear isn't sitting in my garage because of halving either20:35
HostFathow do you know that these spikes are a part of his idea?20:36
bsm117532Explain?  Why do you have idle asic gear?20:36
moathe halving formula is a great idea20:36
HostFataren't*20:36
smoothbsm117532: because it is slightly below profitable20:36
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bsm117532smooth: That's not likely to improve soon.20:38
smoothwhen btc spiked up close to 500 usd recently i was getting it ready20:38
bsm117532moa: the halving formula is so dumb.  How is it better than a smooth curve?20:38
smoothbut you are right, with the halving coming soon it will quite possibly not happen20:38
bsm117532smooth: I predict Ethereum will have a better year than BTC.20:38
bsm117532But neither will go away.20:38
smoothstarting from now or starting from jan 1? :)20:39
moathe halving formula is a great idea ... just to balance your unsupported contention20:39
bsm117532Both.20:39
bsm117532moa: justification?20:39
moayou go first20:39
moait was your statement20:39
bsm117532Discontinuous perturbations on the market cause ripples.20:39
smoothhmm, i think i would pick btc from now20:39
moaripples create interest20:40
bsm117532Only from speculators, and they're worthless.20:40
moahah20:40
HostFatlol20:40
bsm117532Also, Ripple is worthless.20:40
smoothhehe20:40
moanow we're into social theory20:40
bsm117532Didn't mean to go there...20:40
moahalving is simple and unlikely to be gamed20:41
bsm117532Any time I take a market and I introduce a discontinuous perturbation, it will cause reactions and reactions to the reactions and oscillations.20:41
bsm117532Bitcoin is pretty weird in the fact that it's scheduled, so people have a lot of time to make their plans.20:41
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bsm117532But I argue it would still be better with a continuous curve.20:42
smoothif you believe the external majority theory then you have to believe that halvings are terrible i think20:42
moaI would argue it is good enough20:42
bsm117532The discontinuous nature of Bitcoin may not affect the bitcoin price, but it will cause discontinous fluctuations in secondary markets (dumping of ASIC hardware)20:42
smoothbecause of the unnecessary security vulnerability20:43
CubicEarthbsm117532: Or at least much smaller steps.  Adjusting monthly perhaps.20:43
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smoothCubicEarth: the obvious is on difficulty adjustment (nominal 14 days)20:43
bsm117532CubicEarth: There's no reason why the reward can't be adjusted with every single retargeting.  Many altcoins do it.20:43
CubicEarthsmooth: Yes20:43
CubicEarthbsm117532: Yes20:43
bsm117532smooth: What security vulnerability?20:43
smooththe hash rate dropping in half overnight20:44
smoothpotentially ymmv, etc.20:44
smooththe argument has been made it could drop 100% overnight20:44
bsm117532I've been arguing for some time that the halvings create "dark hashpower" that can/will be used to attack the network later.20:44
smoothif all miners have a profit margin <50%20:44
smoothbsm117532: yes thats exactly what i meant about external majority theory and halvings being inconsistent20:45
bsm117532In fact, it creates ~50% dark hashpower with each halving, under naive assumptions...20:45
smooththere is >0% dark hashpower before the halving so after it would always be >50% under those assumptions20:45
bsm117532Yep.20:46
moaany evidence for this "dark" hashpower?20:46
bsm117532=> Halving is bad, smaller steps would be better.20:46
bsm117532moa: his name is smooth.20:46
moa1 ASIC in a garage?20:46
smoothits not 1 but really the concept is pretty obvious20:47
smoothif you have a spectrum of efficiencies there will always be something that is not quite break even20:47
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moait seems to totally discount any price changes that comme into profitably though?20:47
smooththat just moves the line, right? there is still a line.20:47
bsm117532Or her, hell if I know.  All I know is that smooth can't possibly have a wife.20:48
smoothi mean if we woke up tomorrwo and btc was 1 million USD we might mine on GPUs20:48
moabut is it really 'dark' if it is uneconomic then?20:48
smoothcertainly with all old asics at a minimum20:48
bsm117532smooth: How quickly do you respond to price fluctuations?20:48
moaseems more like dead than dark20:49
smoothbsm117532: in the past i had it automated. Since small scale mining doesn't really work any more its more like a day or two.20:49
bsm117532I'm sure it can be modeled simply with a time constant...20:49
CubicEarthbsm117532: That would depend on how volatile the price has been recently20:49
bsm117532smooth: And you watch the market daily?20:49
smoothno, but if it moves a lot i generally hear about it...20:49
moaif all the old mining GPUS come back on-line I not sure they would even make a dent in hashpower total relatively anyway?20:49
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bsm117532CubicEarth: I'm referrring only to how quickly someone notices and brings their hardware online.  On average, with many participants, I can model this with a time constant.20:50
smoothmoa: it was an extreme example, but i dont know gpus there are in the world, id guess quite a lot20:50
smooththere are large data centers with many gpus in them, similar scale to btc mining farms...20:51
moayeah but relative to ASIC hashpower they are a blip20:51
bsm117532It's naive to assume that GPU/CPU farms won't arise, on the same scale as current Bitcoin ASIC mining operations.20:51
CubicEarthbsm117532: Yeah, and what I'm saying is:  If the price swings 1000% week to week, people are going automate their on- and off-lining of hashing.  If the price and difficulty have been steady for months... then people will not invest time into flexibility20:52
smoothCubicEarth: thats exactly what i did when i had close-to-profitable equipment20:52
bsm117532CubicEarth: I see what you're saying.20:53
CubicEarthKinda the same way that organisms can evolve to evolve faster, or evolve to be more stable.20:53
bsm117532No assets swing that wildly.  A few percent at most.  Any readily traded assets has a thin margin to profitability.20:53
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bsm117532Mine at night on the grid, during the day if you have a solar installation...20:53
bsm117532Any serious large scale miner would do both.20:54
CubicEarthbsm117532: Sure, I was just trying to illustrate my idea with an exaggerated example20:54
smoothbsm117532: bitcoin price swings much, much faster than it makes sense to buy and sell hardwware, if the latter is even practical at all20:54
bsm117532Not 1000%.20:55
smoothmaybe close to that in 2013, but mostly not20:55
bsm117532How many people have on/offlining hardware/software for their mining operations, depending on the Bitcoin price and electricity price?  I'd guess it's very very small.20:55
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smoothprobably not...i like that they don't it subsidized me20:56
CubicEarthI think we can all agree a 1000% rise would be nice.  Very nice.20:56
jtrembackhttps://github.com/BumblebeeBat/FlyingFox/blob/development/docs/coin_creation.md20:56
bsm117532the capital costs of the mining hardware make it worthwhile to find cheaper electricity, and move there...20:56
smoothbsm117532: thats only correct if the price volatility is low (as it was in most of 2015)20:56
smoothfor most of bitcoin's history the price volatility was not low at all20:56
bsm117532smooth: that has been speculation based.  Here on out I'd bet you we won't see nearly as much voltility.20:57
smoothof course it is speculation based20:57
bsm117532Professional market makers and traders are in the game now, and they tend to damp out volatility.20:57
smoothid say thats somewhat off topic20:58
CubicEarthmy favorite thing that works against volatility is that the big holders can only dump once.  I mean sure they can buy back, but I don't think that is how it tends to work in bitcoin.20:59
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smoothgetting back to mining, to be honest ive become somewhat negative on the whole concept. I mean how much of a security margin can we really expect from the premise of 50% being honest not only right now but at every point in time?21:01
bsm117532smooth: If you can invent an algorithm that can identify the "honest" from the "fraudulent" when the "honest" have less than 50%, I'd like to see it.21:02
smoothobviously i can't21:02
smoothotherwise you would have seen it :)21:02
bsm117532I'd almost argue that's a law of nature.  The honest are defined by the majority...21:03
smooththe honest in bitcoin are sort of defined by extending the longest chain, i think21:03
bsm117532correct, but that's circular.21:04
smoothnot sure i see the cirularity21:05
smoothi mean there is a longest chain, someone either is or isn't extending it21:05
bsm117532Longest chain defines honest.  Honest defines longest chain.21:06
moai think you're mixing up subjective and objective definitions of "honesty"21:07
moathe longest is the longest is all you can say21:07
smoothi dont see how honest defines the longest chain21:12
bsm117532It's an often-made mistake. I'd argue "honest" is not a consideration on the table.21:15
smoothokay then, just substitute mining on the longest chain vs. not mining on the longest chain21:16
bsm117532which is to say, it's way to fuzzy and sqishy to define honest in a cryptographic manner.  "longest chain" is extremely clear.21:16
smoothand leave the moral baggage out of it21:16
moawell the longest chain could be provably 'dishonest' with double-spending etc, etc if there was a successful 51% attack21:18
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bsm117532It's best to dump moral baggage, including the words 'honest', 'fraudulent', and 'trustworthy' and design protocols without need of those concepts.21:19
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smoothmoa: how can you prove that the longest chain is dishonest?21:20
smooththats exactly the challenge that bsm117532 made earlier21:21
bsm117532One person's honest is another person's fraudulent. To smooth's earlier challenge, I suspect one can prove this can never be better than 50%.21:22
smoothbsm117532: moa specifically mentioned double spending, but i dont see how you can prove that the LC is double spending21:22
bsm117532LC?21:23
smoothlongest chain21:23
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bsm117532That's easy...a double spend exists on an alternate chain.21:25
bsm117532Only the owner of that UTXO can create such a thing.21:26
smoothif you define that as dishonest yes21:26
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bsm117532Exactly, there are quite a lot of legitimate reasons why someone might submit a double spend of their coins.  (e.g. wait a while, no coins move, submit another -- might even be to the same vendor!)21:27
bsm117532This is one of the reasons behind the new bitcoin RBF code by petertodd.21:27
smootheven if you define it as dishonest you cant say which one is the wrong one other than longest chain21:28
smoothyou could burn both but that opens the obvious abuse21:28
bsm117532One of the points of this, in my mind, is to drop the morality of the "honest transaction" and settle one, in the interest of creating faster settlement networks.21:29
bsm117532The fear of transaction reversal is what causes T+3 to be a thing.21:30
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--- Log closed Tue Feb 16 00:00:34 2016

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