2016-02-18.log

--- Log opened Thu Feb 18 00:00:36 2016
-!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: Leaving]00:08
-!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards00:09
-!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]00:12
-!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards00:12
-!- chmod755 [~chmod755@unaffiliated/chmod755] has joined #bitcoin-wizards00:29
-!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards00:37
-!- cjcj [2e3b026a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.59.2.106] has joined #bitcoin-wizards00:38
-!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-38-39.ptld.qwest.net] has quit []00:50
-!- adnn [~adnn@cpe-158-222-198-108.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]00:53
-!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards00:56
-!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving]00:58
-!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]01:00
-!- bit2017 [~linker@115.79.43.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]01:15
-!- bit2017 [~linker@210.245.34.191] has joined #bitcoin-wizards01:18
-!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving]01:20
-!- paci [~paci@host41-233-static.58-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards01:25
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]01:29
-!- davout [~david@unaffiliated/davout] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]01:34
-!- davout [~david@unaffiliated/davout] has joined #bitcoin-wizards01:36
-!- supasonic [~supasonic@172-11-188-117.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]01:39
-!- jannes [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards01:55
maakucareful you'll find many of the authors here ;)02:03
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards02:16
-!- chmod755 [~chmod755@unaffiliated/chmod755] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]02:25
-!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards02:37
-!- c-cex-yuriy [uid76808@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wekqihdywuswzydq] has joined #bitcoin-wizards02:37
-!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@2601:645:c001:263a:e01c:6c86:149e:3e80] has joined #bitcoin-wizards02:41
-!- hdbuck [~hdbuck@62.160.224.48] has joined #bitcoin-wizards02:41
-!- hdbuck [~hdbuck@62.160.224.48] has quit [Changing host]02:41
-!- hdbuck [~hdbuck@unaffiliated/hdbuck] has joined #bitcoin-wizards02:41
-!- p15 [~p15@87.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]02:42
-!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving]03:11
-!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]03:12
-!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-76-126-174-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]03:25
-!- Aesthetic [Logicwax@c-76-126-174-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards03:26
-!- Aesthetic is now known as Logicwax03:26
-!- Logicwax [Logicwax@c-76-126-174-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]03:28
-!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-76-126-174-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards03:29
-!- Jeremy_Rand_2 [~user@ip68-97-35-223.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]03:55
-!- Jeremy_Rand_2 [~user@ip68-97-35-223.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards03:56
-!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards03:57
-!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-76-126-174-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]03:58
-!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-76-126-174-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards03:59
-!- jtimon [~quassel@37.134.31.46] has joined #bitcoin-wizards04:00
-!- CrazyTruthYakDDS [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ystghjwbdzaqkqxg] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]04:00
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]04:00
-!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]04:01
-!- bit2017 [~linker@210.245.34.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]04:01
-!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards04:05
-!- voxelot [~voxelot@2605:e000:1525:802f:18f3:1d02:b6ff:edea] has joined #bitcoin-wizards04:08
-!- LeMiner [LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]04:11
-!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]04:11
-!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128.79.141.196] has joined #bitcoin-wizards04:14
-!- brg444 [18257df2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.37.125.242] has quit [Quit: Page closed]04:19
-!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving]04:33
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards04:41
-!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards04:41
-!- Cory [~C@unaffiliated/cory] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]05:00
-!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards05:05
-!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]05:09
-!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has quit [Quit: Leaving]05:09
-!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has joined #bitcoin-wizards05:12
-!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards05:13
-!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye]05:14
-!- AaronvanW [~ewout@217.149.135.165] has joined #bitcoin-wizards05:16
-!- AaronvanW [~ewout@217.149.135.165] has quit [Changing host]05:16
-!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards05:16
-!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]05:17
-!- MrChrisJ [~MrChrisJ@cpc73828-dals21-2-0-cust929.20-2.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: MrChrisJ]05:17
-!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards05:25
-!- hdbuck [~hdbuck@unaffiliated/hdbuck] has quit [Quit: hdbuck]05:29
-!- Crowley4k [uid81280@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lznvthoazumvvfdg] has joined #bitcoin-wizards05:29
-!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-122-14-46-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards05:30
-!- hdbuck [~hdbuck@62.160.224.48] has joined #bitcoin-wizards05:30
-!- hdbuck [~hdbuck@62.160.224.48] has quit [Changing host]05:30
-!- hdbuck [~hdbuck@unaffiliated/hdbuck] has joined #bitcoin-wizards05:30
-!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards05:32
-!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]05:32
-!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards05:34
-!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards05:46
-!- jonasschnelli [~jonasschn@2a01:4f8:200:7025::2] has quit [Changing host]05:52
-!- jonasschnelli [~jonasschn@unaffiliated/jonasschnelli] has joined #bitcoin-wizards05:52
-!- HostFat [~HostFat@212.91.77.37] has joined #bitcoin-wizards06:09
-!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]06:18
-!- c-cex-yuriy [uid76808@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wekqihdywuswzydq] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]06:22
-!- hdbuck [~hdbuck@unaffiliated/hdbuck] has quit [Quit: hdbuck]06:22
-!- bit2017 [~linker@27.75.174.138] has joined #bitcoin-wizards06:24
-!- sparetire [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has joined #bitcoin-wizards06:25
-!- hdbuck [~hdbuck@unaffiliated/hdbuck] has joined #bitcoin-wizards06:26
-!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards06:43
-!- hdbuck [~hdbuck@unaffiliated/hdbuck] has quit [Quit: hdbuck]06:45
-!- hdbuck [~hdbuck@62.160.224.48] has joined #bitcoin-wizards06:46
-!- hdbuck [~hdbuck@62.160.224.48] has quit [Changing host]06:46
-!- hdbuck [~hdbuck@unaffiliated/hdbuck] has joined #bitcoin-wizards06:46
-!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128.79.141.196] has quit [Quit: laurentmt]06:47
-!- hdbuck [~hdbuck@unaffiliated/hdbuck] has left #bitcoin-wizards []06:48
bsm1175321maaku: heheee I know, I'm just not the intended audience of that paper.  ;-)06:49
-!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]06:53
-!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards06:53
-!- bliljerk_ [~bliljerk1@c-71-60-0-241.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]06:56
-!- voxelot [~voxelot@2605:e000:1525:802f:18f3:1d02:b6ff:edea] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]06:57
-!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]07:05
-!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@2601:547:c303:6cd0:2cec:a007:ff06:562a] has joined #bitcoin-wizards07:08
-!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@2601:547:c303:6cd0:2cec:a007:ff06:562a] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]07:10
-!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@c-71-60-0-241.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards07:11
-!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]07:13
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]07:17
-!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards07:17
-!- fkhan [weechat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-zplynshbvnubytbk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]07:18
-!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79-98-72-216.sys-data.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards07:25
-!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79-98-72-216.sys-data.com] has quit [Changing host]07:25
-!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards07:25
-!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has joined #bitcoin-wizards07:27
-!- fkhan [weechat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-qdxesoglpfydzbpm] has joined #bitcoin-wizards07:30
-!- ghtdak [~ghtdak@unaffiliated/ghtdak] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.4-dev]07:35
-!- rustyn_ [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards07:39
-!- gielbier [~giel____@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards07:39
-!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has quit [Disconnected by services]07:40
-!- rustyn_ is now known as rustyn07:40
-!- gielbier [~giel____@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has quit [Changing host]07:40
-!- gielbier [~giel____@unaffiliated/gielbier] has joined #bitcoin-wizards07:40
-!- MrChrisJ [~MrChrisJ@cpc5-epso5-2-0-cust234.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards07:43
-!- phiche1 [~Adium@193.89.191.209] has joined #bitcoin-wizards07:44
-!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nrddmlolvwroxujl] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]07:44
-!- phiche [~Adium@193.89.191.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]07:46
-!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-klljpezanevqpizo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards07:46
-!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye]07:51
-!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]07:53
-!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards07:56
-!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards07:57
-!- LeMiner [LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards07:57
-!- atgreen [~green@CPE687f74122463-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]08:02
-!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]08:05
-!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards08:07
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards08:10
-!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128.79.141.196] has joined #bitcoin-wizards08:13
-!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128.79.141.196] has quit [Client Quit]08:13
-!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@2601:645:c001:263a:e01c:6c86:149e:3e80] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]08:13
-!- voxelot [~voxelot@remote.digitalmoneycorp.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards08:15
-!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]08:16
-!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards08:17
-!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards08:19
JackHwhat is a precursor to the blockchain model used in Bitcoin? what is the closest we come to it practically? There must be better or more elaborate solutions than a DB with API key's and CRON jobs as backups08:20
adlaithere have been mentions of git, although the reason hash blocks are chained is rather orthogonal to bitcoin's trust minimization through chained PoW08:21
JackHand I am not thinking the crypto attempts here, like mojonation or b money/bitgold08:21
JackHyes, well, I am not even looking for that in specific, but more like a database storage model that allows for managed signing, a bit like blockstreams model08:22
JackHaka liquid08:22
adlaigit, with signed tags/commits?08:23
bsm1175321JackH: Take a look at PAXOS, Raft, and PBFT.08:23
JackHah yes someone mentioned PAXOS before08:23
bsm1175321They seek to "identify" nodes.  Bitcoin/PoW replaces identification of nodes with proof of work.08:23
adlaiBGP might fit this dragnet?08:23
JackHI was more looking at this in terms of big data, rather than security, but big data with a shared db space08:24
bsm1175321There are some great presentations about Raft.  People are finally starting to grok that "permissioned blockchains" are really PBFT in disguise -- and totally unused in the shared db space.08:24
bsm1175321So the relevant topics in the shared db space are PAXOS, Raft and similar projects (e.g. Apache Zookeper)08:25
JackHawesome, thanks bsm1175321, as I would like to have this when people talk about BLOCKCHAIN as some sort of magic trick, when they actually mean Bitcoin08:25
bsm1175321JackH: They're always (depending on the context/assumptions) going to land on PBFT or Proof-of-work as what they actually mean when they say "blockchain".08:26
JackHI totally agree, its just frustrating as I did not have any other model08:27
JackHnow I do08:27
JackHso when someone decides to speak stupid about blockchain I can show them these models08:27
JackHgonna read up on them to understand what they do exactly08:28
JackHhttp://fortune.com/2016/02/18/blythe-masters-blockchain/08:28
JackHthis is a good example of that08:28
* bsm1175321 just undercut his paid consulting work... :-/ But none of this is secret.08:28
bsm1175321Yes, Masters/DAH do grok that PBFT is what they're really after.08:29
JackH“The technology,” she says, describing the cryptographic masterstroke in laymen’s terms, “is simply a newer, better, more sophisticated form of database technology.”08:29
JackHthis is frustrating to read08:29
bsm1175321I'm rather happy that DAH has come out and stated that directly, it cleans up a lot of confusion in the space.08:29
instagibbsdon't read it then :)08:29
JackHhaha08:30
JackHproblem is all the clones go into repeat mode after they read the articles08:30
instagibbsliquid/fedpeg is nice in the sense that bitcoin companies already use bitcoind. You get some level of BFT depending on the setup, and people understand the underlying protocol since it's just signatures instead of mining.08:30
JackHyeah in this respective it makes perfect sense08:32
bsm1175321instagibbs: I worry that "signing blocks" is naive and does not take into account the considerable literature on BFT.  It's also only able to tolerate 33% failure/fraud rate, and as soon as you decide you're going to allow dynamic membership, you open up security holes big enough to drive a truck through.08:32
JackHwhat is BFT doing in this casE?08:33
bsm1175321That said, PBFT is a real thing and has its uses.08:33
bsm1175321JackH: don't understand your question...08:33
-!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]08:34
JackHI mean, from my understanding BFT wont matter much in Liquid since its perfectly pegged to BTC, so its value cant be lost?08:34
* adlai cuts out one line from JackH's fortune.com link: "Bitcoin happens to be one use-case for the technology, It is actually a distinct invention with its own benefits"08:35
adlaiamazing what magic is made by omission of unimportant words08:35
JackHthe article is garbage08:36
JackHbut, people read it, and believe it08:36
-!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards08:36
-!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]08:37
instagibbsJackH, it's essentially a huge multisig wallet08:40
-!- MrChrisJ [~MrChrisJ@cpc5-epso5-2-0-cust234.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: MrChrisJ]08:40
bsm1175321I don't think BFT has any role to play in Liquid, but someone correct me...08:41
-!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards08:46
pigeonsJackH: someone mentioned zfs slef validating merkle tree as a similar structure to bitcoin blockchain that preceded it08:46
JackHzfs slef??08:47
pigeonsself08:47
pigeonszfs08:47
JackHahh08:47
JackHwell someone somewhere probably used a db with some of the features found in Bitcoin, like merkle-tree's or multisig access or similar08:48
pigeonszfs has sha256 hashes as tree for integrity08:48
JackHjust wondered to what extend different approaches were used. Most DB's seems to be rather simplistic in term of shared access08:48
pigeonseven some convergence features08:48
bsm1175321JackH: The multisig/crypto is often conflated with access control of nodes.  They're different things.  There's no reason you can't add validation rules and signatures to a standard database.08:48
-!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@unaffiliated/tiraspol] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]08:49
JackHI totally agree08:49
bsm1175321(but no one does it, yet -- it's application layer logic)08:49
JackHjust trying to get an overview08:49
JackHI am speaking at a conference08:49
bsm1175321Oh, what conference?08:49
JackHand something tells me it would be a good idea to bring up "regular non blockchain models"08:49
instagibbsbsm1175321, eventually I think there's supposed to be a liquid fedpeg whitepaper, I'll let you know08:49
instagibbswhitepaper*08:50
JackHhttp://www.terrapinn.com/conference/cyber-security-show/08:50
bsm1175321JackH: Jeez you have the GCHQ director speaking.  That should be fun.08:51
JackHah well, doesnt matter08:51
JackHthing is this whole blockchain debate08:51
JackHthat has gone way of course08:52
JackHtoo much misunderstanding, too much magic dust when people explain it08:52
JackHits seriously insane that a billion dollar industry is popping up around something that is partially made up08:52
bsm1175321Hey I'm happy to get paid to correct their misconceptions. ;-)08:53
JackHeveryone says that ;)08:53
JackHits on a rinse repeat mode daily08:53
JackHmention Bitcoin however, and people look at you weird08:54
JackHor....more like everyone collectively choose to forget about it08:54
pigeonsso "Blockchain" is free, unlimited, anonymous, transparent storage that makes it ok to skip settlement processes08:54
JackHthat of which we do not speak sort of feeling08:54
bsm1175321"The open-source PBFT code initially provided by Castro and later modified by others has been publicly available, improved, and fine-tuned for several years, and while readily sized up by the academic community for research purposes, it has not been used in practice in real-world systems." -- http://arxiv.org/abs/1110.485408:54
-!- Erik_dc [~erik@ip-83-101-50-17.customer.schedom-europe.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards08:54
bsm1175321Still the case AFAIK 5 years later.08:55
JackHhmm08:55
JackHthis is quite high level08:56
JackHmore like a generalisation of the topic08:56
-!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]09:03
-!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has joined #bitcoin-wizards09:05
-!- yang [yang@freenode/sponsor/fsf.member.yang] has joined #bitcoin-wizards09:07
-!- Erik_dc [~erik@ip-83-101-50-17.customer.schedom-europe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]09:10
-!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]09:11
-!- Don_John [~Don@249-223-114-134.nat.resnet.nau.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards09:11
-!- MrChrisJ [~MrChrisJ@cpc5-epso5-2-0-cust234.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards09:13
-!- phiche1 [~Adium@193.89.191.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]09:14
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards09:14
-!- MrChrisJ [~MrChrisJ@cpc5-epso5-2-0-cust234.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Client Quit]09:15
-!- Erik_dc [~erik@ip-83-101-50-17.customer.schedom-europe.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards09:15
-!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards09:16
-!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]09:16
-!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards09:22
maakuJackH: if you think "git with signed commits" is a precursor to bitcoin, check out monotone09:23
-!- phiche [~Adium@2.71.24.116.mobile.tre.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards09:23
fluffypony<3 monotone09:24
JackHthx maaku, this looks as well like it comes close to something like what I was thinking09:27
fluffyponyJackH: all those speakers look angry09:29
JackHheh09:29
-!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]09:31
-!- hdbuck [~hdbuck@unaffiliated/hdbuck] has joined #bitcoin-wizards09:31
-!- hdbuck [~hdbuck@unaffiliated/hdbuck] has quit [Client Quit]09:32
-!- Erik_dc [~erik@ip-83-101-50-17.customer.schedom-europe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]09:32
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]09:33
stonecoldpatjust seen this; might interest some people https://bitcoinschool.gr/09:35
-!- K1773R [~K1773R@unaffiliated/k1773r] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]09:35
JackHthat water looks amazing09:36
-!- K1773R [~K1773R@unaffiliated/k1773r] has joined #bitcoin-wizards09:36
-!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128.79.141.196] has joined #bitcoin-wizards09:38
-!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128.79.141.196] has quit [Client Quit]09:38
-!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-251-52.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]09:39
-!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-251-52.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards09:40
-!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards09:45
-!- supasonic [~supasonic@172-11-188-117.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards09:56
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]09:57
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards10:09
-!- adnn [~adnn@cpe-158-222-198-108.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards10:10
-!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards10:12
-!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:b8e2:1c9c:fe32:8ba2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]10:13
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]10:14
-!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]10:16
-!- Cory [~C@unaffiliated/cory] has joined #bitcoin-wizards10:17
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards10:31
-!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards10:34
bsm1175321Has anyone else been following the Ethereum PoS plans?  I've been going back and forth with Vitalik on his blog and I think he's just totally on the wrong track.  It comes down to his idea of "weak subjectivity" which basically means "get the chain tip out of band" -- like on the web (because no one could possibly make a false website).10:35
bsm1175321https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity/10:35
bsm1175321I'm utterly unconvinced there's anything here, and will be extremely disappointed if Ethereum goes this direction.  What do the rest of you think?10:36
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]10:36
bsm1175321And: https://blog.ethereum.org/2015/12/28/understanding-serenity-part-2-casper/10:36
-!- cluckj [~cluckj@pool-108-16-231-242.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards10:37
MRL-Relay[othe] PoS is always nice to kill miners from dumping coins, i think thats their sole real reason to go that route bsm :) they are more a silicon valley startup then a cryptocurrency project anyway.10:42
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards10:50
-!- HostFat [~HostFat@212.91.77.37] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]10:50
-!- cluckj [~cluckj@pool-108-16-231-242.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]10:51
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]10:54
-!- Yoghur114 [~jorn@g227014.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards10:57
-!- bityogi [~textual@208-104-143-200.brvd.dsl.dyn.comporium.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards11:00
-!- sociable-Azaria- [~sociable-@45.55.10.168] has joined #bitcoin-wizards11:02
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards11:03
-!- atgreen [~green@38.104.156.251] has joined #bitcoin-wizards11:04
fluffyponybsm1175321: "just get it from a trusted node"11:09
fluffypony(that's from the ZeroCash whitepaper)11:09
bsm1175321Sounds like a great way to have long-lived forks.  There's going to be absolutely no consensus about what defines a "trusted node" without centralization.11:14
-!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving]11:16
-!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards11:17
ebfullin zerocash the trusted third party is only trusted to do a secure one-time setup of the parameters of the system. the parameters are not subjective11:19
-!- Jeremy_Rand_2 [~user@ip68-97-35-223.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]11:20
fluffyponyebfull: uh, no, not for the attack vector the whitepaper is referring to11:23
fluffypony"To mitigate such attacks, users should check with trusted peers their view of the block chain and, for sensitive transactions, only spend coins relative to blocks further back in the ledger (since creating the illusion for multiple blocks is far harder)."11:24
ebfullthat's an attack against anonymity that does not affect consensus11:25
fluffyponywe'll file this one under "I don't know the product I'm working on"11:26
fluffyponyok bro, good chat.11:26
ebfullnice one11:27
fluffypony!bash 1311:28
gribbleError: "bash" is not a valid command.11:28
fluffyponypity11:28
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]11:33
-!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]11:34
-!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:b8e2:1c9c:fe32:8ba2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards11:37
-!- MoALTz [~no@78-11-180-214.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving]11:41
-!- MoALTz [~no@78-11-180-214.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards11:52
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards11:52
-!- FXpro [~Hpar@108-219-97-53.lightspeed.dybhfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards11:52
FXprohi11:52
-!- FXpro [~Hpar@108-219-97-53.lightspeed.dybhfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]11:55
-!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards11:58
-!- lnovy [~lnovy@2002:4d57:f055::1] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]11:58
-!- bityogi [~textual@208-104-143-200.brvd.dsl.dyn.comporium.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]12:02
-!- Don_John_ [~Don@249-223-114-134.nat.resnet.nau.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:07
-!- roybadam1 [~roy@darla.gnomon.org.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:07
-!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:08
-!- stonecoldpat1 [~a9380004@janus-nat-128-240-225-56.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:08
-!- CodeShark_ [sid126576@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yrgoubinsswtnauf] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:08
-!- Meeh_ [~meeeeeeh@meeh.sigterm.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:10
-!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]12:11
-!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@67.188.40.206] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]12:12
-!- roybadami [~roy@darla.gnomon.org.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]12:12
-!- CodeShark [sid126576@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-exwnnlkhhlmxdgtb] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]12:12
-!- dabura667 [~dabura667@45.32.233.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]12:12
-!- bildramer [~bildramer@p5DC8ADCC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]12:12
-!- stonecoldpat [~a9380004@janus-nat-128-240-225-56.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]12:12
-!- guruvan [~guruvan@unaffiliated/guruvan] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]12:12
-!- poggy [~poggy@ks3262860.kimsufi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]12:12
-!- Don_John [~Don@249-223-114-134.nat.resnet.nau.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]12:12
-!- voxelot [~voxelot@remote.digitalmoneycorp.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]12:12
-!- jtimon [~quassel@37.134.31.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]12:12
-!- mountaingoat [~mountaing@unaffiliated/mountaingoat] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]12:12
-!- Meeh [~meeeeeeh@meeh.sigterm.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]12:12
-!- jcorgan [~jcorgan@unaffiliated/jcorgan] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]12:12
-!- sparetire_ [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]12:12
-!- voxelot [~voxelot@remote.digitalmoneycorp.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:12
-!- CodeShark_ is now known as CodeShark12:12
-!- poggy [~poggy@ks3262860.kimsufi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:12
-!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:12
-!- dabura667 [~dabura667@45.32.233.97] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:12
-!- jtimon [~quassel@46.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:12
-!- mountaingoat [~mountaing@unaffiliated/mountaingoat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:14
-!- sparetire_ [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:14
-!- guruvan [~guruvan@unaffiliated/guruvan] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:14
-!- whiteunicorn [uid139385@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yacqkxmlhqdasnzj] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]12:15
-!- misalias [sid32673@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-khsqyyekwkffnefk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]12:15
-!- jlyndon [sid10913@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lqyitxewxqdbpcfw] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]12:15
-!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:15
-!- whiteunicorn [sid139385@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-krkwfcckywelzyhw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:16
-!- jlyndon [sid10913@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jxzscajfxcrhgied] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:16
-!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]12:17
-!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]12:17
-!- misalias [sid32673@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tvrdrsappsgltrda] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:18
-!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]12:25
-!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving]12:26
-!- bobke [~bobke@d51536036.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:27
-!- jannes [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving]12:32
-!- MrHodl [~fuc@159.148.186.135] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:38
-!- Tasoshi_ [~Tasoshi@unaffiliated/tasoshi] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]12:39
-!- diegoviola [~diego@unaffiliated/diegoviola] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:40
-!- Tasoshi [~Tasoshi@unaffiliated/tasoshi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:41
-!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]12:41
-!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:42
-!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:44
-!- bobke [~bobke@d51536036.access.telenet.be] has left #bitcoin-wizards []12:48
-!- djjacket is now known as SirJacket12:58
-!- Jeremy_Rand_2 [~user@172.58.105.86] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:00
-!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:01
-!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Client Quit]13:03
-!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-76-126-174-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]13:04
-!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:04
-!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:04
-!- SirJacket is now known as djjacket13:04
-!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-76-126-174-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:05
-!- djjacket is now known as SirJacket13:05
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]13:06
-!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]13:08
-!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:b8e2:1c9c:fe32:8ba2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]13:08
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:09
-!- MrChrisJ [~MrChrisJ@cpc73828-dals21-2-0-cust929.20-2.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:09
-!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit []13:10
-!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:10
-!- adnn_ [adnn@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-sbaxqmtaacmwyrso] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:11
-!- adnn [~adnn@cpe-158-222-198-108.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]13:13
-!- AusteritySucks is now known as asux13:14
-!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:17
-!- bildramer [~bildramer@p5DC8ADCC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:19
-!- atgreen [~green@38.104.156.251] has quit [Quit: Leaving]13:21
-!- Jeremy_Rand_2 [~user@172.58.105.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]13:23
-!- adnn_ [adnn@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-sbaxqmtaacmwyrso] has quit []13:23
-!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving]13:24
-!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:24
-!- Jeremy_Rand_2 [~user@172.58.105.86] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:25
-!- mrkent_ [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:28
-!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]13:29
-!- smooth [~ubuntu@ec2-54-201-223-245.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:31
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]13:34
-!- Jeremy_Rand_2 [~user@172.58.105.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]13:36
-!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:39
smoothbsm1175321: it is somewhat odd that DAH and others continue to talk about "the technology behind bitcoin" if they understand they are after PBFT when PBFT has little to nothing to do with Bitcoin13:42
-!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]13:42
-!- Guest33530 [~socrates1@li175-104.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host]13:44
-!- Guest33530 [~socrates1@unaffiliated/socrates1024] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:44
-!- Guest33530 is now known as amiller13:44
fluffyponysmooth: I like to think of it as "Bitcoin finds away AROUND PBFT without solving it", but somehow PBFT / BGP come up all the time13:46
smoothYes but what do they mean by "the technology behind bitcoin" ? It seems useless to them.13:46
fluffyponymaybe they say "the technology" but they mean "the network"13:49
-!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving]13:50
midnightmagiceither way the floodfill network or the PoW blockchain, whichever conference or group or person who is advising them in such a way that they all say exactly the same words when describing what they think they're taking from bitcoin.. they're being lied to.13:56
midnightmagicso it doesn't matter much that they keep parroting the words without adding any substance13:57
-!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:59
-!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards14:00
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards14:02
waxwingi think they're mostly talking about proper use of cryptography in distributed dbs/audit trails. git, google's certificate transparency for example. i don't think most of it is about BGP/BFT at all. 'blockchain' as a term is not helping, it's more an inspiration than anything else.14:05
-!- droark [~droark@c-24-22-36-12.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards14:07
-!- wwwbukolaycom [~mIRCPro@78.165.110.14] has joined #bitcoin-wizards14:16
-!- MoALTz_ [~no@78-11-180-214.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards14:29
-!- CrazyTruthYakDDS [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qeczvpjbhrsrdnzl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards14:35
-!- Jeremy_Rand_2 [~user@172.58.104.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards14:36
-!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards14:39
-!- phiche1 [~Adium@185.97.214.106] has joined #bitcoin-wizards14:43
-!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards14:43
-!- phiche [~Adium@2.71.24.116.mobile.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]14:44
-!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]14:48
-!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]14:49
-!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]14:57
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards15:05
-!- Jeremy_Rand_2 [~user@172.58.104.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]15:05
-!- murch [~murch@p4FE38EBD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards15:06
-!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]15:23
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]15:25
-!- phiche1 [~Adium@185.97.214.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]15:27
-!- Crowley4k [uid81280@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lznvthoazumvvfdg] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]15:28
-!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards15:34
-!- adnn [~adnn@cpe-158-222-198-108.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards15:36
-!- Guyver2_ [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards15:39
-!- Guyver2_ [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit]15:39
-!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)]15:39
-!- adnn_ [adnn@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-oarnarshudaojqyb] has joined #bitcoin-wizards15:42
-!- adnn [~adnn@cpe-158-222-198-108.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]15:43
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]15:51
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards15:54
-!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving]15:58
-!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: laurentmt]15:58
-!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards16:00
-!- Jeremy_Rand_2 [~user@172.58.104.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards16:02
-!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards16:09
jtremback"Blythe Masters is no longer just one of the most powerful women on the Street; she’s one of the most powerful women on the Block—the Blockchain, that is."16:11
-!- diegoviola [~diego@unaffiliated/diegoviola] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.4]16:15
-!- Yoghur114 [~jorn@g227014.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]16:16
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]16:22
-!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has quit [Quit: Leaving]16:23
-!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@unaffiliated/tiraspol] has joined #bitcoin-wizards16:24
-!- rgrant [~user@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/rgrant] has joined #bitcoin-wizards16:24
rgrantis there a coherent argument for or against miners using BIP100 voting as a centralizing influence?16:25
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards16:26
-!- murch [~murch@p4FE38EBD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]16:26
rgranti ask because the tension between "people picking numbers" and miners being in control of their own fee destiny is still part of our debate, although not in BIP100 form.16:26
smoothIt is clearly a form of collective bargaining. i guess it is not as clear whether you think that is "centralizing" or not.16:30
adlaiwaxwing: algorithmic auditability! automatic transparency!16:31
rgranti've done some resarch of cartel behavior in other domains, and enforcement is a key aspect of stable cartels.  Bitcoin has no punishment mechanisms for potentially-anonymous miners, but the blocksize can set an effective limit.16:31
-!- ghtdak [~ghtdak@unaffiliated/ghtdak] has joined #bitcoin-wizards16:37
-!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards16:39
-!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving]16:39
-!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]16:42
-!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards16:42
-!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards16:45
-!- rgrant [~user@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/rgrant] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]16:48
-!- bit2017 [~linker@27.75.174.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]16:53
-!- PRab [~chatzilla@c-68-34-102-231.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 44.0.2/20160210153822]]16:56
-!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@adsl-172-6-8-124.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards16:57
-!- toffoo [~tof@c-73-245-137-32.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards16:57
-!- toffoo [~tof@c-73-245-137-32.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host]16:57
-!- toffoo [~tof@unaffiliated/toffoo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards16:57
-!- SirJacket is now known as djjacket17:01
-!- djjacket is now known as SirJacket17:01
-!- SirJacket is now known as djjacket17:02
-!- djjacket is now known as SirJacket17:03
-!- hashtag_ [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards17:03
-!- hashtag [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]17:05
-!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]17:05
-!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards17:05
-!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]17:06
-!- voxelot [~voxelot@remote.digitalmoneycorp.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]17:07
-!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards17:09
-!- LeMiner [LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]17:10
-!- hashtagg [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards17:19
-!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards17:19
-!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]17:21
-!- hashtag_ [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]17:22
-!- p15 [~p15@15.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards17:22
-!- jtimon [~quassel@46.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]17:30
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]17:31
-!- bit2017 [~linker@210.245.34.191] has joined #bitcoin-wizards17:32
-!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]17:34
-!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards17:36
-!- Crowley4k [uid81280@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-timqmvzkqxplsifv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards17:43
-!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving]17:44
-!- MrHodl [~fuc@159.148.186.135] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]17:47
-!- fuc [~fuc@159.148.186.135] has joined #bitcoin-wizards17:48
-!- adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]17:49
-!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving]17:50
-!- fuc [~fuc@159.148.186.135] has quit [Client Quit]17:50
-!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@adsl-172-6-8-124.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]17:52
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards17:53
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]17:57
-!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wjhnklrdjyefajea] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]17:58
-!- CrazyTruthYakDDS [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qeczvpjbhrsrdnzl] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]18:00
-!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]18:04
-!- wumpus [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/wumpus] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]18:09
-!- CrazyTruthYakDDS [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lkrpeigolfgktoai] has joined #bitcoin-wizards18:11
bsm117532Hmmm...a simple Incremental Hash Function is a Merkle path to the *next* place to add an element in a Merkle tree.  That seems so obvious now, don't know why I didn't think of it before... http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/papers/inchash-cs06.pdf18:13
-!- wumpus [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/wumpus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards18:13
bsm117532(possibly useful for UTXO set commitments)18:13
-!- jcorgan [~jcorgan@54.67.38.167] has joined #bitcoin-wizards18:13
-!- jcorgan [~jcorgan@54.67.38.167] has quit [Changing host]18:13
-!- jcorgan [~jcorgan@unaffiliated/jcorgan] has joined #bitcoin-wizards18:13
bsm117532The literature I've seen on constructions of incremental hash functions seems to point to a log(n) growth in the size of the hash as you add data.  Merkle branches are very obviously log(n), so why not use them and evade the security considerations in the other constructions...18:16
kanzure"NixOS: A purely functional Linux distribution" http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/software-engineering/nixos/NixOS:%20A%20Purely%20Functional%20Linux%20Distribution.pdf18:17
kanzuremaaku: ^18:17
-!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards18:17
-!- rgrant [~user@unaffiliated/rgrant] has joined #bitcoin-wizards18:19
bsm117532Ooooh!  That's a neat idea!18:19
* bsm117532 glares angrily at /var/lib/dpkg/status18:20
-!- voxelot [~voxelot@2605:e000:1525:802f:18f3:1d02:b6ff:edea] has joined #bitcoin-wizards18:37
-!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]18:41
-!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards18:42
-!- cypherBlock [32bd885e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.189.136.94] has joined #bitcoin-wizards18:42
-!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-36-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards18:47
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards18:47
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]18:52
-!- guruvan [~guruvan@unaffiliated/guruvan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]18:52
-!- BananaLotus [~BananaLot@54.186.186.141] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]18:52
-!- Jeremy_Rand_2 [~user@172.58.104.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]18:52
-!- BananaLotus [~BananaLot@54.186.186.141] has joined #bitcoin-wizards18:54
-!- guruvan [~guruvan@unaffiliated/guruvan] has joined #bitcoin-wizards18:54
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards19:05
-!- Jeremy_Rand_2 [~user@ip68-97-35-223.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards19:08
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]19:09
-!- PeterR [cdfa7ea5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.205.250.126.165] has joined #bitcoin-wizards19:16
-!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]19:23
-!- r0ach [~r0ach@107-217-214-192.lightspeed.jcvlfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit []19:24
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards19:26
-!- MrChrisJ [~MrChrisJ@cpc73828-dals21-2-0-cust929.20-2.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: MrChrisJ]19:28
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]19:30
-!- bit2017 [~linker@210.245.34.191] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]19:36
-!- bit2017 [~linker@210.245.34.191] has joined #bitcoin-wizards19:37
-!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards19:38
-!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Client Quit]19:38
-!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:d1c1:e2f2:44b1:3b46] has joined #bitcoin-wizards19:38
-!- drivvel [~chatzilla@c-73-222-33-100.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards19:41
-!- drivvel [~chatzilla@c-73-222-33-100.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0a2/20160218004005]]19:42
-!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:d1c1:e2f2:44b1:3b46] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]19:43
-!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@c-98-234-63-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards19:48
-!- cypherBlock [32bd885e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.189.136.94] has quit [Quit: Page closed]19:50
-!- nivah [~linker@115.79.55.177] has joined #bitcoin-wizards19:51
-!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]19:53
-!- droark [~droark@c-24-22-36-12.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]19:53
-!- PRab [~chatzilla@c-68-34-102-231.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards19:53
-!- bit2017 [~linker@210.245.34.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]19:55
-!- Don_John_ [~Don@249-223-114-134.nat.resnet.nau.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]19:55
-!- Don_John [~Don@249-223-114-134.nat.resnet.nau.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards19:56
-!- adnn [~adnn@cpe-158-222-198-108.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards19:58
-!- adnn_ [adnn@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-oarnarshudaojqyb] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]20:01
-!- mrkent_ [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit []20:02
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards20:02
-!- tromp_ [~tromp@24.190.11.216] has joined #bitcoin-wizards20:04
PeterRI noticed BSM posted this paper by Croman, Decker, Eyal, et al: http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/CDE+16.pdf20:04
PeterRThe authors argue that to maintain the network's current level of "decentralization," a reasonable goal is for blocks to propagate within 10 min to 90% of the nodes (an 'effective throughput' of 90%, to use their terminology).20:04
PeterRThey present data to suggest that given the current p2p performance, this works out to approximately 4MB blocks.20:04
-!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]20:05
PeterRQuestions for the channel:20:05
PeterR1. Is block propagation between nodes arguably the bottleneck for on-chain scaling?20:05
PeterR2. Is "effective throughput" a useful metric and is >90% a reasonable target?20:05
-!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards20:06
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]20:07
kanzureincreasing the resource requirements for participation will inevitably kick low-resource nodes off of the network20:10
-!- rgrant [~user@unaffiliated/rgrant] has left #bitcoin-wizards []20:12
PeterRThat is a fairly generic statement that seems to be true but perhaps not that useful.20:14
PeterRWhat I like about this new paper is that it centers around the network's propagation impedance: something that is both measurable and improvable.20:14
kanzurei don't think it should be assumed to be possible to measure network propagation in absence of registered nodes20:15
-!- [7] [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Disconnected by services]20:16
-!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards20:16
PeterRAre you saying that you don't think Decker and Wattenhofer's methodology was valid?20:17
smootha percentage target seems useless20:17
smoothwhat if there are 3 nodes and the all propagate within 5 seconds?20:17
PeterRYes, I see your point.20:18
kanzurewell their reference [10] is http://www.initc3.org/scalingblockchain/ which is a blank page20:19
kanzureso i'm not sure how anyone would have evaluated their methods20:19
kanzureanyway, since this is amiller, i am going to assume that it's coinoscope stuff, which is somewhat valid, but really you can only work with worst cases and try to improve the performance for worst-case participants rather than optimize for best-case participants20:20
PeterRkanzure: this is the original paper that measured information propagation: http://www.tik.ee.ethz.ch/file/49318d3f56c1d525aabf7fda78b23fc0/P2P2013_041.pdf20:20
PeterRThe authors of the most recent paper made new measurements since this paper was from 2012.20:21
PeterRkanzure: you answered Q2 but not Q1.  Do you agree that block propagation between nodes arguably the bottleneck for on-chain scaling?20:22
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards20:23
kanzurei would be far more willing to say something about bandwidth (transactions, blocks, or whatever else) long before i would claim block propagation20:24
smoothi see his answers as responsive to both Q2 and Q120:25
kanzurethis is like the umpteenth time i have said this to you..20:25
smooth"increasing the resource requirements" sounds like a bottleneck to me20:25
PeterRKanzure: yes, that is what I suspected you'd say.  Just thought I'd ask again in the context of this latest paper :)20:27
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]20:28
kanzurenext you're going to tell me alderaan shot first20:29
PeterRI'm actually going to head off for sushi.  Nice talking to you (and to smooth).20:33
-!- PeterR [cdfa7ea5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.205.250.126.165] has quit [Quit: Page closed]20:33
-!- forrestv [forrestv@unaffiliated/forrestv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards20:40
-!- Tenhi_ [~tenhi@static-ip-69-64-50-196.inaddr.ip-pool.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards20:44
-!- kang` [~user@45.127.193.218] has joined #bitcoin-wizards21:00
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards21:03
-!- [_smitty] [~chatzilla@97-90-24-187.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards21:06
-!- [_smitty] is now known as Guest6863821:06
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]21:07
-!- Guest68638 is now known as [_smitty]21:08
-!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards21:18
-!- [_smitty] [~chatzilla@97-90-24-187.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out]21:25
-!- [_smitty] [~chatzilla@97-90-24-187.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards21:26
-!- asux [~Austerity@unaffiliated/austeritysucks] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]21:27
-!- [_smitty] is now known as Guest8264821:27
phantomcircuitkanzure, this strategy of showing up and demanding people answer leading questions is getting really old21:27
-!- Guest82648 is now known as [_smitty]21:28
-!- asux [~Austerity@unaffiliated/austeritysucks] has joined #bitcoin-wizards21:40
-!- supasonic [~supasonic@172-11-188-117.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]21:44
-!- sparetire [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has quit [Quit: sparetire]21:48
-!- adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #bitcoin-wizards21:51
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards22:02
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]22:07
-!- Crowley4k [uid81280@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-timqmvzkqxplsifv] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]22:08
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards22:19
-!- phiche [~Adium@2.71.21.249.mobile.tre.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards22:29
-!- Don_John [~Don@249-223-114-134.nat.resnet.nau.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]22:36
-!- adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]22:43
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]22:44
-!- spinza [~spin@197.89.19.199] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]22:47
-!- LeMiner [LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards22:52
-!- [_smitty] [~chatzilla@97-90-24-187.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]22:55
-!- phiche [~Adium@2.71.21.249.mobile.tre.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]22:55
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards23:02
-!- daira [~davidsara@host86-153-60-194.range86-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]23:04
-!- shea256 [~shea256@65.209.72.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]23:07
-!- phiche [~Adium@193.89.191.214] has joined #bitcoin-wizards23:09
-!- Jeremy_Rand_2 [~user@ip68-97-35-223.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]23:14
-!- daira [~davidsara@host86-153-60-158.range86-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards23:19
-!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]23:20
-!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@c-98-234-63-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]23:21
-!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has joined #bitcoin-wizards23:21
-!- adnn_ [adnn@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-rconangvlsykbqch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards23:23
-!- adnn [~adnn@cpe-158-222-198-108.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]23:25
-!- tromp_ [~tromp@24.190.11.216] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]23:50
--- Log closed Fri Feb 19 00:00:37 2016

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!