2016-02-25.log

--- Log opened Thu Feb 25 00:00:42 2016
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adlaiTaek: i think you may be confusing software regulation with automobile regulation01:21
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* adlai is also in favor of regulating high-speed multiton killing machines, but this only incidentally involves checking which software they're running01:22
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Taekadlai: yeah, that's a good point. It's not software regulation I want. It's regulation of monetary services like blockchain.info, like shadowcash. It's cell phone baseband and operating systems.06:05
TaekI guess shadowcash doesn't make sense either. It's a protocol.06:06
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Luke-JrTaek: you want baseband and OSs regulated?06:19
TaekLuke-Jr: better than having 90% of the population using phones that have remote code execution vulnerabilities, imho06:20
Luke-JrTaek: not really IMO06:21
Luke-Jrunless the regulations allow private use of any OS06:21
Taekof course. If you want to wipe your phone and install whatever, be my guest. But in the process of doing so there should be warnings that you're leaving the realm of certified code06:22
Luke-Jrk06:23
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Taekbut yeah, slippery slope. Especially if the regulator is not intimate with the industry06:29
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Taekso, one thing OI06:50
Taek*One thing I've been thinking about a lot more seriously is the ability to run multiple sets of consensus code on the same blockchain06:50
Taekthe constants for the blockchain itself would still need to be set, so you wouldn't avoid debates like the block size debate06:50
Taekbut if you had multiple chains, ways to one-way-peg or atomic-swap between them, you could hardfork a lot more easily06:51
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Taekfix things like the multisig bug, and introduce new transaction types or signature schemes, or other features that would require a hardfork06:51
Taekand you wouldn't need to do so much backbending to get stuff through with softforks when they really should be hardforks06:52
Taekthings like fixing malleability06:52
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Taekand you can even introduce things like inflation06:54
Taekyou'd accomplish this by having each transaction prefix itself with a code that specifies which set of consensus rules to use06:54
Taekto change the consensus rules, you just introduce a new code. That new code gets a fresh utxo set, meaning everyone who doesn't upgrade doesn't need to worry06:55
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Taekblocks are valid so long as the POW matches, and all the data is there06:55
Taekif a transaction is invalid for its particular consensus rules, you just ignore it, instead of making the whole block invalid06:56
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Taekwhich means clients only need to validate a portion of the chain, and don't need to be aware of the consensus rules of every utxo set in order to be confident in their own balances06:56
Taekthough they do still need to download the whole chain06:56
Taekthis breaks SPV06:56
Taekbut, if there are transaction types which have speedlimits, such as 1 per block and 16kb max, SPV becomes unimportant06:57
Taekyou validate the headers of the master chain, and then download the 16kb you care about06:57
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Taekand then things like phones can actually be full validating nodes, except for the fact that they aren't downloading the whole blocks. So they are SPV for knowing that a block exists in full, but not for knowing that transactions are valid06:58
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TaekI think the major thing remaining here is figuring out how to get the utxo sets to be fully interoperable, though I feel like that doesn't need to be a part of the consensus code06:59
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Taekif you are running multiple, and have payment channels on each, you can reasonably do decentralized trading for coins between chains06:59
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BitcoinErrorLogTaek i was reading your comments via the Slack channel07:00
BitcoinErrorLogabout having a compatible ledger07:00
BitcoinErrorLogbut07:00
BitcoinErrorLogisnt that just wanting to put Bitcoin in Bitcoin?07:00
BitcoinErrorLogas in, what happens when you need to update the main protocol?07:01
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BitcoinErrorLogmy .0207:02
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Taekwell, like I said there are some core things that you can't make flexible. Namely, blocksize, POW function, any timestamp rules,  blocktime, and how headers + top-level transactions are composed07:21
instagibbswould miners be in charge of validating all the consensus rules of each system?07:22
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instagibbsif not, you're essentially describing embedded consensus07:22
Taekminers would be in charge of knowing that all of the data existed. but they wouldn't need to run any validation code on that data07:24
Taekis embedded consensus formally documented somewhere?07:24
moliTaek: satoshi wrote it?07:26
instagibbsoh yeah, broken spv, that's embedded consensus07:26
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instagibbsTaek, ehh not really that I know of. It's Peter Todd's ideas, strewn about07:27
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instagibbshttps://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2014-February/004297.html07:27
Taekhuh: http://symbiont.io/uncategorized/what-is-embedded-consensus/07:28
instagibbsyeah saw that, no idea who they are07:28
instagibbsbut it appears to be a similar idea07:28
Taek"Symbiont’s proprietary Smart Securities™ technology..." heh. Almost got excited for a minute07:29
molihttps://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg03890.html07:29
instagibbsthe treechains idea is another layer on top of that idea07:29
instagibbssince you won't be able to ensure everyone validates everything anyways07:29
instagibbsmissing data is a problem though07:30
Taekyeah it's similar. The thing I don't like about treechains though is that there's a mechanic to reorg some chains without reorging all of them07:30
Taekand datawitholding07:30
instagibbsyeah it's next-level issues07:30
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bsm1175321Is there a comprehensive writeup of treechains somewhere?  I was under the impression that it didn't work or needed some yet-unknown development to make it work.08:28
instagibbsit doesn't work right now :P08:29
bsm1175321Taek: I've had that idea too -- regarding different sets of consensus rules.  I think it makes an awful lot of sense.08:29
phantomcircuitbsm1175321, iirc the incentives are basically a giant question mark08:30
bsm1175321Taek: One then needs ways to make coins fungible between different sets of consensus rules.  I think of this as a solution to the merged mining problem.08:30
bsm1175321The merged mining problem is that in order to have multiple assets (including sidechains) you need everyone to mine everything, or hashpower can be dumped onto sidechains to destroy them.  What you describe (Taek) is a mechanism to get everyone to merge-mine everything.08:31
instagibbsminers are not required to create a "valid" chain08:31
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instagibbspeople follow the longest PoW chain(within some bounds like blocksize, etc) then validate themselves08:32
instagibbsso double-spends included are simply ignored, etc08:32
bsm1175321instagibbs: then the chain is full of trash...I do not think double-spends should be recorded for all time.08:35
instagibbsit's trash to you, but perhaps not to others?08:35
bsm1175321Also, a node doesn't actually know if there is consensus about the UTXO state.  It could have parsed something differently than other nodes, and wouldn't know.08:36
instagibbswell, double-spends are probably trash no matter people's preferences, but then you have to force miners to validate everything again08:36
bsm1175321I do think of miners as validation agents, committing their work to their validation task.08:36
instagibbsso now your stupid protocol centralizes my nice simple one :P08:36
instagibbs(hypothetical)08:37
kanzurebsm1175321: for treechain stuff, see:08:37
kanzurehttp://blog.greenaddress.it/2014/06/13/sidechains-treechains-the-tldr/08:37
kanzurehttp://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2014-March/004797.html08:37
kanzurehttp://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2014-April/005284.html08:37
kanzurehttps://letstalkbitcoin.com/ltb104-tree-chains-with-peter-todd/08:37
instagibbsAnd if miners disagree on a specific sub protocol, you get chain splits again08:37
kanzurehttps://github.com/petertodd/tree-chains-paper08:37
kanzurehttps://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3u1m36/why_arent_we_as_a_community_talking_about/cxbamhn08:37
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bsm1175321FWIW I've been thinking an awful lot about sharding.  Don't know how much it overlaps with petertodd's treechains but it relies on making the UTXO set into a Merkle tree, and having nodes commit to storing a branch of it.  So each node has a truncated Merkle tree.08:40
bsm1175321Storage commitments are incentivized by passing proofs-of-storage, which get added to transactions.08:40
kanzurere: sharding,08:41
kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/sharding-the-blockchain/08:41
kanzurehttps://github.com/vbuterin/scalability_paper/blob/master/scalability.pdf08:41
bsm1175321Then there's logic about how to track the tree at the point you truncated the Merkle tree.08:41
bsm1175321From what I can see, my logic works, and results in O(log(n)) scaling.  (The proofs you're passing around about presence of outputs in the UTXO set grow as log(n))08:42
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bsm1175321I guess I need to re-read all these references.  I've read almost all of them before...08:42
Taekbsm1175321: chain is very unlikely to be full of trash. Though miners are not required to validate transactions before the throw them into the chain, there are likely transaction fees associated, and understanding those fees means doing at least after-the-fact validation of the chain. It also means they are incentivized to not supply double-spends, as that cuts into fee revenue08:44
bsm1175321I guess you can have two categories of solutions: (1) arrange for all UTXO's spent by a given transaction to be available on some node somewhere (Vitalik et al's solution above) or (2) collect proofs from other nodes about presence of the UTXO's you can't see in the most recent global UTXO set commitment.08:45
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bsm1175321Taek: Okay so you're proposing a different incentive mechanism there, which I haven't seen before.08:47
bsm1175321Taek: that's also the approach taken by the "inclusive blockchain" paper, which they call a "direct revelation mechanism". http://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~avivz/pubs/15/inclusive_btc.pdf08:49
bsm1175321"The provision of this additional information amounts to a “direct revelation mechanism”: Instead of instructing nodes to select the chain they extend, we simply ask them to report all possible choices, and other nodes can simulate their choice, just as they would have made it (the term direct revelation is borrowed from economics where it is widely used in mechanism design [10])."08:49
kanzurei don't see how you get from taek's last message to that "direct revelation mechanism"08:51
bsm1175321kanzure: He's proposing to keep all possible choices including un-validated chains.  it's the same thing.08:52
kanzurein his last message? or in a prior message? in his last message he is simply a current fact for the blockchain- miners are foregoing the fees from double spends, because otherwise their blocks will be invalid.08:52
bsm1175321Prior message.  I've got like 3 overlapping conversations in my head now, and am confusing myself...  I'm going to wander off now...08:54
kanzureearlier prior message makes more sense, nevermind08:54
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kanzurehmm so why are we not using PoW for the peer protocol? e.g. for every rpc request, include some small PoW that some work is being done to commit to the transmitted data?09:05
helobecause we want consensus to be as fast as possible, right?09:05
kanzureif transaction validation has a cost, then it seems reasonable to bottleneck that cost by first evaluating whether there is a PoW attached to it, to first determine whether to bother to do a utxo lookup or do the validation work (especially for unconfirmed stuffs)09:05
kanzurewell, i am thinking about the silly claim that non-mining relay nodes are useless. they aren't. and attaching PoW to rpc actions might do something interesting.09:06
bsm1175321kanzure: I think we should.  We're explicitly enabling outsourcing of mining by not doing so, and I don't think that's something a "decentralized" coin should do.09:06
bsm1175321hashcash all the things.09:06
bsm1175321The braided/sharded coin proposal I'm slowly building will have not have a free relay layer.  Every tx will be mined, and I'm thinking inter-node rpc calls should be mined too.09:08
kanzurewhat would it mean to "mine" an "inter-node rpc call"?09:09
Guest24373Do you mean RPC or p2p messages?09:09
bsm1175321I mean p2p messages.09:09
bsm1175321Not 100% sure that makes sense...09:10
kanzureas in, "look! they are there in the merkle tree!"  ?09:10
kanzurealso: is it the p2p request that should have a PoW, or the response, or both?09:10
instagibbsadding PoW to things without directly "mining" it seems like going backwards09:11
heloincreasing the cost for those that are using the network's resources, so they will only do it if it is worth the cost09:12
helodifficulty retargets will be hard to implement, no?09:12
kanzureseems somewhat passive aggressive "you can't figure out an incentive for me to give you this data, so instead i am going to make you do proof-of-burn PoW stuff". (the reason why demanding payment for data doesn't work is that there will always be people freely giving away the data)09:13
heloit's just a fee paid to external entities, right? "buy your BFL p2p request asic now!"09:15
bsm1175321kanzure: The incentive model I have now for a sharded coin would have nodes asking each other for proofs-of-inclusion in the UTXO set.  The response would contain a commitment (also in the same data structure as the UTXO Merkle tree) that the requestee is holding that section of the UTXO set, and an address to pay him.09:16
bsm1175321So, no PoW at that level in my half-finished head-model coin right now.09:16
bsm1175321But you can imagine an attack by creating a large number of double-spends, just to tax the network.09:17
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maakukanzure: well lightning payments for p2p calls will make these ideas obsolete.11:18
kanzurebut why would anyone pay? there's probably always going to be freely available blockchain data.11:19
maakumaybe11:20
maakubut in the mean time if you turn it on within your own node, either (a) people stop asking or (b) you earn some money, so win-win11:20
maakuI mean it may never make sense to run a node to collect the fees. it won't even cover the cost of running the server11:21
maakubut it's a better rate limiter than making the caller burn electricity11:21
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instagibbsmaaku, indeed, if it's not being put into consensus it seems backwards11:38
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kanzuremaaku: spv-oblivious is actually the wrong phrase too..... it's still ambiguous. it needs to be, i think, spv-breaking and spv-non-breaking hard-forks.13:56
kanzureor maybe spv-silent and spv-non-silent...... this is actually pretty hard.13:57
kanzureintentionally-spv-breaking and intentionally-spv-non-breaking :P13:57
kanzureor maybe the word "spv-halting" should be thrown in there somewhere.13:58
kanzuretoo many dimensions13:59
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gmaxwellI'm not sure if people have seen this yet, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/760114:38
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gmaxwellhttps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1377298.0 [Schnorr] Signature aggregation for improved scalablity.16:52
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kanzurewoot i predicted an attack gmaxwell would bring up17:35
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kanzureunfortunately my email arrived late because it got stuck in the moderation queue17:35
kanzurehttp://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-February/012461.html17:36
kanzurehttp://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-February/012462.html17:36
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Jeremy_Rand_2Hey, sorry to potentially waste your time, but someone pointed this out to me: https://blockstack.org/blockstack.pdf ... and I was wondering if people here have seen it, and if it's as thoroughly broken as I assume it probably is.21:34
Jeremy_Rand_2(Sec. 4.5 looks particularly sketchy at first glance)21:34
bsm117532FWIW I know one of the authors and respect him, I would not assume it's crap at first glance, but I will look...21:34
Jeremy_Rand_2I also dug up a GitHub issue where they're talking about what appears to have become Sec. 4.5: https://github.com/blockstack/blockstack-server/issues/121:36
Jeremy_Rand_2they appear to be using social media posts as a consensus-achieving mechanism...?21:36
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Jeremy_Rand_2Yeah so looking at their paper sec. 4.5, they talk about a bunch of stuff they do with the consensus hash, but they hand wave over the fact that the consensus hash needs to be bootstrapped from a trusted source.  At least, that's how I read it.21:45
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bsm117532Yes, this community has a problem in general differentiating carefully thought-out ideas from "I've never written a line of code in my life, but I had this amazing idea on the shitter today!"22:58
Jeremy_Rand_2bsm117532: I'm not 100% sure what you're referring to?22:59
bsm117532Referencing blog posts, bitcointalk, reddit, mailing lists, twitter, IRC as sources of authoritative info.  (or github)23:00
Jeremy_Rand_2I can't tell if you're making fun of me or commenting about someone else.  (Sorry, text-based communication is a bit ambiguous in tone.)23:02
bsm117532Oh no not making fun of anyone.23:03
Jeremy_Rand_2ok23:03
bsm117532My background is academic...we have a process for separating the wheat from the chaff.  This space is extremely noisy, and referencing random websites is part of the reason.23:03
bsm117532And I'm going to read that paper tomorrow, it's interesting.  Too tired now though.23:04
Jeremy_Rand_2ok, no worries.  I probably should get sleep too23:04
bsm117532Sorry i can't offer any interesting comments on it tonight.23:04
Jeremy_Rand_2I'll try to idle in here, feel free to ping me when/if you have comments on that paper23:05
bsm117532Will do, sleep well.23:05
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fluffyponybsm117532: it's borderline "just get the blockchain from a trusted peer" :-P23:41
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pigeonsthats what ethereum reccomends23:43
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--- Log closed Fri Feb 26 00:00:18 2016

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