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| JackH | harding, would it be correct to also say: 1 hash = 1 calculation? or do we have a better definition for "a hash" | 02:51 |
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| JackH | a miner performs a calculation? no right? a miner guesses a string? what would be the definition here? | 02:51 |
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| fluffypony | One successful hash or one attempt, jackH ? | 03:20 |
| JackH | one attempt | 03:21 |
| fluffypony | I would say "1 guess" or "1 attempt" are accurate | 03:21 |
| fluffypony | Since it technically involves multiple calculations I would avoid that word | 03:22 |
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| JackH | ok so when we say: 1PH/s does that imply 1 quadrillion calculations or attempts | 03:26 |
| JackH | I mean, it is attempts, but that sounds silly too | 03:26 |
| JackH | I tried something one quadrillion times.... | 03:26 |
| JackH | reason being is that if its not explained very clear, it is impossible to teach people or give them clarity | 03:28 |
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| tromp_ | proof attempt is good. it's not necessarily the same as a hash computation (if we consider other PoW besides Hashcash) | 07:48 |
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| jannes | Good initiative? http://blog.bettercrypto.com/?p=2449 (Courtois warning) | 08:57 |
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| Taek | 5btc for discovery in of [attacks] in ZK proofs, ring signatures, key management, and other advanced cryptographic techniques | 09:03 |
| Taek | I support that, provided there's responsible disclosure of course | 09:04 |
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| jannes | good point | 09:07 |
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| fluffypony | Taek: although 5 BTC is a little small | 10:12 |
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| Taek | I thought so to, but it seems to be targeted more at students. If you're convincing someone to choose X over Y for a thesis, 5btc might be plenty | 10:13 |
| fluffypony | ah yeah true | 10:16 |
| tromp_ | any progress on testing new Moner PoW, fluffy? | 10:19 |
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| fluffypony | tromp_: been playing around with it, satoshi roundtable threw my timetable a bit - just got home a couple of hours ago | 10:31 |
| tromp_ | home as in SA? | 10:33 |
| fluffypony | yes | 10:33 |
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| brg444 | so can someone walk me through why ext. blocks as implemented in this paper is not a good idea https://github.com/goodsamaritan9000/scalingbitcoin/raw/master/Bitcoin9000.pdf | 10:41 |
| Aleph0 | fluffypony: whats moneros new pow? | 10:41 |
| fluffypony | Aleph0: we're going to do Cuckoo Cycle for a PoW-on-connect challenge, and if it holds up as we hope then we will switch to it as our main PoW | 10:42 |
| maaku | fluffypony: is that code written? want to upstream it? | 10:46 |
| fluffypony | maaku: no not yet - upstreaming would be difficult, we don't share a common codebase | 10:46 |
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| instagibbs | fluffypony, cool | 10:50 |
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| instagibbs | any documentation on that? | 10:51 |
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| instagibbs | (meaning plans for the connection challenge) | 10:59 |
| fluffypony | instagibbs: no - at the moment it's just been some discussionabout what that could look like - I think the concept is reasonably clear: random PoW challenge when an inbound peer connects, if they solve the challenge continue with the connection, else add them to the ban list | 11:02 |
| instagibbs | right, well I was just wondering since it's a low-energy form of PoW an attacker could just take time to exhaust resources if it's a "challenge and forget" type system. | 11:03 |
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| instagibbs | I haven't done much thinking about such things, but the more I think about it, the more your version seems the safest. I'd be interested in the future. | 11:10 |
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| fluffypony | instagibbs: the key advantage here is that the attacker expends way more energy computing the attack than our node spends verifying it | 11:13 |
| fluffypony | because of that unique property of Cuckoo Cycle | 11:13 |
| Aleph0 | but an attacker can utilize a single beefy machine to connect a bunch of nodes, all of them re-using the pow-accelerator-equipped machine. | 11:16 |
| instagibbs | guess I thought it was more about memory-bounding attacks | 11:17 |
| smooth | how does a single machine help if each challenge is unique | 11:18 |
| instagibbs | Aleph0, tromp_ believes that the cycle cannot be appreciably sped up by special machines, so let's assume just RAM is needed | 11:18 |
| Aleph0 | smooth: you re-use its resoruces for each connect. | 11:18 |
| smooth | Aleph0: at a minimum it limits the rate of connections | 11:18 |
| instagibbs | I suppose making the challenge takes minutes to solve would work | 11:19 |
| instagibbs | minutes, seconds, whatever | 11:19 |
| Aleph0 | smooth: might as well implement a back-off algo, same thing | 11:19 |
| smooth | even if it take 10 seconds, thats still probably 100x slower than if you just flooded connections | 11:19 |
| smooth | Aleph0: only if you can identify the originator | 11:19 |
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| instagibbs | What I imagined before was something like: Draw a random number from an exponential distribution. Wait that many minutes, then suddenly challenge all your peers to use significant amount of RAM. If it's sybil, many should fail. | 11:20 |
| Aleph0 | you can still get DDoSed with a botnet, you will be able to request a ton of challenges | 11:20 |
| instagibbs | but that is problematic for bans | 11:20 |
| smooth | Aleph0: it costs virtually nothing to provide challenges and verify them | 11:21 |
| Aleph0 | smooth: probably a good idea to implement back off for challenge requests too, if you are trying to protect from repeated requests. | 11:21 |
| smooth | you can certainly get connection flooded or whatever | 11:22 |
| Aleph0 | good point on that cuckoo pow helps to identify the requester. | 11:22 |
| Aleph0 | smooth: or flooded with invalid challenge responses, those are cheap to generate. | 11:23 |
| fluffypony | Aleph0: they're equally cheap to verify and ban | 11:23 |
| instagibbs | yeah banning is the key there | 11:23 |
| fluffypony | which means it's no worse than the current mechanism | 11:23 |
| instagibbs | if we're banning, it's probably not a good idea to scatter challenges about, only on connect | 11:23 |
| fluffypony | yeah, keep it simple | 11:24 |
| smooth | banning isn't always a useful option. Over Tor for example. | 11:24 |
| instagibbs | partitioning accidentally/maliciously could happen fast | 11:24 |
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| smooth | if you make connecting expensive (but cheap to verify) then attackers have higher costs than honest users. Thats about the best that is possible I think | 11:26 |
| fluffypony | yeah | 11:26 |
| Aleph0 | challenge request should be difficult to compute | 11:26 |
| instagibbs | smooth, then the question why not just some form of hashcash | 11:26 |
| smooth | instagibbs: that would work, but it does introduce issues between different equipment | 11:27 |
| Aleph0 | are there such schemes, where an attacker has to expend resources before even requesting challenge? | 11:27 |
| instagibbs | Aleph0, bitcoin mining :D | 11:27 |
| Aleph0 | send a coin? | 11:27 |
| Aleph0 | lol | 11:27 |
| instagibbs | mine coin, get it, store it, spend it for other things :P | 11:27 |
| smooth | Aleph0: that would work too | 11:27 |
| smooth | pay on connect | 11:27 |
| instagibbs | I suppose you could "bind" it to a peer you want to connect to | 11:28 |
| Aleph0 | smooth: demand all new connecting nodes send some cash | 11:28 |
| smooth | but it does incentivize malicious receivers | 11:28 |
| smooth | (accept connection, receive payment, disconnect) | 11:28 |
| Aleph0 | which is held in trust, until challenge is successfully verified | 11:28 |
| instagibbs | You could also mix and match: Pay me via LN 1 satoshi or solve this memory hard puzzle" | 11:28 |
| Aleph0 | smooth: an escrow multisig | 11:28 |
| smooth | or just burn the coin | 11:28 |
| Aleph0 | smooth: thats a lot of burned coins. | 11:29 |
| Aleph0 | instagibbs: can you do multisig escrows on LN? | 11:29 |
| instagibbs | Aleph0, yes | 11:29 |
| Aleph0 | amazing. | 11:29 |
| smooth | Aleph0: No necessarily, it depends on the size of the payment. I mean how much is 30 second or whatever of PoW going to be worth? | 11:29 |
| smooth | burning coins seems about the same as hashcash | 11:30 |
| Aleph0 | smooth: burning coins can only be done in a coin with some inflation | 11:30 |
| instagibbs | smooth, yeah my point was if we're burning money, why not use Bitcoin... | 11:30 |
| Aleph0 | i think placing it in escrow is enough, and you can use larger amounts to discourage attacks. | 11:30 |
| smooth | instagibbs: im not sure im understanding, but that's what I was suggesting | 11:30 |
| instagibbs | we're concurring | 11:31 |
| Aleph0 | smooth: do you suggest blackholing coins? | 11:31 |
| smooth | i wasn't suggesting it, i think some sort of pow is better | 11:31 |
| smooth | but i think burning is better than paying | 11:31 |
| Aleph0 | i think larger amounts in escrow are better. | 11:32 |
| smooth | how do you resolve the escrow? | 11:32 |
| Aleph0 | no risk to an honest users, huge cost to attackers | 11:32 |
| smooth | how does the attacker lose the coins? | 11:32 |
| Aleph0 | smooth: multisig with a pow-challenge oracle | 11:32 |
| instagibbs | LN escrow for peer challenges, this is getting loops lol | 11:32 |
| Aleph0 | for this to work, you must have LN-like mechanism | 11:33 |
| Aleph0 | instagibbs: built-in demand for LN | 11:33 |
| instagibbs | you could simply tie up a 2-of-3(with third key being something junk) with a short timeout, wait for the hltc to timeout, hltc expires | 11:34 |
| Aleph0 | the big problem would be getting first balance. | 11:34 |
| instagibbs | or am I just smoking here | 11:34 |
| smooth | Aleph0: thats one of the reasons i think pow is better | 11:34 |
| instagibbs | unredeemable HLTC I guess I mean | 11:34 |
| instagibbs | so... no hash, just "wait" | 11:34 |
| Aleph0 | instagibbs: why not 3-rd key being challenge verification proof? | 11:35 |
| instagibbs | LTC, not HLTC | 11:35 |
| smooth | also if nodes are making payments ie means they have hot wallets which makes they a juicy target | 11:35 |
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| instagibbs | Aleph0, well you don't want to actually pay the person you're trying to connect to(esp them doing work to get it) | 11:35 |
| Aleph0 | smooth: HSM | 11:35 |
| instagibbs | smooth, hopefully this would be small amounts | 11:35 |
| instagibbs | I like my LTC idea actually. | 11:36 |
| smooth | instagibbs: true | 11:36 |
| instagibbs | You tie your money up in LN with the person you want to connect to | 11:36 |
| instagibbs | they can't get paid by it | 11:36 |
| instagibbs | but they won't "sign off" on getting it back until time runes out | 11:36 |
| instagibbs | nevermind, doesn't make sense. Ignore. | 11:38 |
| instagibbs | hops would lose access to their own money for no reason | 11:39 |
| Aleph0 | instagibbs: how would a brand new node get a balance? | 11:40 |
| Aleph0 | you need to connect first to get a balance. | 11:40 |
| instagibbs | Aleph0, that's an orthogonal question imo. | 11:41 |
| Aleph0 | why? | 11:41 |
| instagibbs | because you do both | 11:41 |
| instagibbs | cuckoo if not on LN or don't care about a bit of ram, or just pay | 11:42 |
| instagibbs | not an either/or | 11:42 |
| instagibbs | xor* | 11:42 |
| Aleph0 | pay to get paid | 11:42 |
| Aleph0 | i guess you could protect the high-uptime nodes like that. | 11:42 |
| instagibbs | i pay for gas to get to work(actually I don't but bear with me) | 11:42 |
| instagibbs | doesn't have to be a lot | 11:43 |
| instagibbs | pretty much anything is better than now | 11:44 |
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| Aleph0 | the amount could be dynamic | 11:45 |
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| Aleph0 | isnt this what cloudfare does, basically | 11:46 |
| Aleph0 | with pow | 11:46 |
| fluffypony | yeah if you're on Tor or whatever | 11:52 |
| fluffypony | you have to prove you're not a robot | 11:52 |
| smooth | all those cloudflare tests seem solvable by current AI to me | 11:53 |
| Aleph0 | cloudfare has a pow mode | 11:53 |
| fluffypony | choose all of the images that have pictures of ROADS! | 11:53 |
| smooth | click on street signs? seriously? | 11:53 |
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| instagibbs | yeah those are pretty trivial | 11:59 |
| fluffypony | I haven't looked at it, but the Google one that just says "click here to prove you're not a robot" and then ticks it | 12:01 |
| fluffypony | I wonder if that does anything besides check if it can identify you through Google's tracking system or something | 12:02 |
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| gwillen | fluffypony: it does a bunch of stuff | 12:06 |
| gwillen | it runs various tests against your JS interpreter to make sure it seems browser-like | 12:06 |
| gwillen | and I think it also burns a bunch of CPU | 12:07 |
| fluffypony | so easily defeated with PhantomJS then | 12:08 |
| Aleph0 | doesnt check against your google profile> | 12:11 |
| Aleph0 | ? | 12:11 |
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| tromp_ | why does new connection need to request a challenge? can't the challenge just be formed from ip and time and such? | 12:20 |
| fluffypony | tromp_: how does the connecting node know the time of the node it's connecting to? | 12:21 |
| fluffypony | ie. it can precompute a bunch within some time period and the node it's connecting to has to accept it | 12:22 |
| tromp_ | it doesn't. it uses it's own time. the one it's connecting to can just refuse if it's too far out of whack | 12:22 |
| fluffypony | so basically then it has to accept all connections as valid as long as the time isn't too far out of whack | 12:23 |
| fluffypony | which defeats the purpose | 12:23 |
| tromp_ | no, it only accepts requests with valid pow. but we avoid sending a separate challenge for the pow | 12:24 |
| fluffypony | I guess the upside of that is that the challenge is precomputed, so it doesn't have to maintain an open connection whilst it solves it | 12:26 |
| fluffypony | otoh if we keep it reasonable, say 1 second, then I'm not sure there's advantage to either | 12:27 |
| fluffypony | need to think about it some more | 12:27 |
| smooth | tromp_: what is the advantage you see in not sending a challenge | 12:29 |
| tromp_ | saving an extra roudn of communication | 12:29 |
| tromp_ | simplifying the protocol | 12:30 |
| smooth | im not sure incorporating IP is simplifying | 12:31 |
| smooth | but i guess i see a benefit in less communcation before verification | 12:32 |
| tromp_ | isn't that present already? | 12:32 |
| smooth | not with proxies and such | 12:32 |
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| smooth | tromp_: btw what is the smallest amount of RAM that is feasible to use | 12:35 |
| tromp_ | well i expect you can define a challenge in a way that an attacker can't re-use the same challenge for multiple peers | 12:35 |
| fluffypony | you'd have to use both IP addresses and the time, at a minimum | 12:36 |
| smooth | peer identity is not an easy problem. Bitcoin has to takes steps to avoid accidentally connecting to itself | 12:36 |
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| smooth | i think challenge response is likely the least complicted solution here, though maybe the efficiency of reducing communication makes more complication worth it | 12:37 |
| tromp_ | cycle verification uses about 3KB of RAM | 12:38 |
| fluffypony | wow that's tiny | 12:38 |
| smooth | tromp_: i mean for solving | 12:38 |
| smooth | i was aware verification was very low | 12:38 |
| tromp_ | that's for cycle length 42. now you need a pretty big graph to find such cycles | 12:38 |
| smooth | if it is require to communcicate then it places a lower bound on nodes to function | 12:39 |
| tromp_ | but for anti-spam purposes you wouldn't have a single cycle length | 12:39 |
| tromp_ | but a range of acceptable lengths, like 16-64 | 12:39 |
| tromp_ | which should be easy to find for graphs of 64K nodes | 12:39 |
| tromp_ | that would take 8KB of RAM to solve | 12:40 |
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| smooth | is there something in the paper on how to set these parameters? | 12:40 |
| tromp_ | a little | 12:41 |
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| tromp_ | did you read the whole paper? | 12:41 |
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| fluffypony | I just read the intro and conclusion and assumed I knew everything | 12:43 |
| fluffypony | <- true redditor | 12:43 |
| dEBRUYNE | don´t forget the abstract! | 12:44 |
| JackH | harding, you here? | 12:44 |
| smooth | tromp_: i did but it has been a while | 12:45 |
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| Aleph0 | timestamp + ip - seem to be easily pre-computable. | 12:49 |
| tromp_ | pre computable is fine. we dont want re-usable | 12:49 |
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| fluffypony | Aleph0: you use both IPs, so you can't replay the attack from another node | 12:53 |
| fluffypony | s/attack/connection | 12:53 |
| Aleph0 | tromp_: so you precompute 10k or so connections, into the future | 12:56 |
| Aleph0 | store them. | 12:56 |
| Aleph0 | then immediatetly connect to many many nodes and bring them down. | 12:56 |
| fluffypony | bring them down how? | 12:56 |
| Aleph0 | connection flood. | 12:56 |
| Aleph0 | it has to be interactive. | 12:56 |
| smooth | you can connection flood regardless of what happens after you connect | 12:57 |
| fluffypony | yeah | 12:57 |
| Aleph0 | i still think they should just place bitcoins in escrow. | 12:57 |
| Aleph0 | and a significant amount too. that will be a strong deterrent. | 12:57 |
| smooth | Aleph0: how do you do that without a connection? | 12:57 |
| fluffypony | Aleph0: barriers to entry to running a full node aren't great for decentralisation | 12:58 |
| Aleph0 | maybe some kind of reputation system | 12:58 |
| Aleph0 | built-up over time | 12:58 |
| fluffypony | I think the underlying network needs to be more fluid than that - you can layer identity and trust on top of it | 12:58 |
| Aleph0 | its too early to do that, but if they network becomes much more valuable, it might become necessary to protect at least a set number of nodes, a "backbone" of sorts. | 13:00 |
| Aleph0 | with leaves being less restrictive. | 13:01 |
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| --- Log closed Sat Mar 05 00:00:11 2016 | ||
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